PDA

View Full Version : Plan for INT 22 dragon (3.5)



Balor01
2010-10-16, 06:44 AM
There is a dragon A, an owner and ruler of trade station on a mountain pass. This mountain pass is actually a fortress, and dragon A also employs several hundred bugbears, a few dwarfs and humans as his personal militia and police. He is also worshipped by several hundred kobolds who work as his scouts and spies.
No need to say, his gp revenue is huge due to many caravans which travel over this pass.

As it happened, dragon B showed in the neighbourhood, the problem being, that both dragons are of equal power. If B risks straight attack, A will crush him with the help of his minions and acess to magic items. So, somewhere along the tale, our PCs came along and got drafted to work as spies/assassins for dragon B.

Now, both dragons have INT 22! This means that dragon A has a powerful spy net, uses detect poison, detect magic, detect thoughts, see invisibility spells and alike (not to mention specific search-capture&interrogate groups which work against those, who would try to topple dragon A)

But still, dragon B also has INT 22. So, I would much appreciate if you could give me a INT-22-worthy plan of toppling dragon A.

This far, dragon B has at his disposal his INT 22 and 4 minions he can use as spies/assassins. And all faculties of a young adult dragon.

J.Gellert
2010-10-16, 06:55 AM
Involving the PCs, I assume...

Dragon B sends the PCs to destroy a few caravans, leave no survivors, and make it seem like the Bugbears did it.

Whoever's sending the caravans decides that paying the toll is not worth it and goes to get rid of Dragon A.

If they fail, Dragon A is weakened enough / his minions disheartened / his fortress ruined, and you work from there. Maybe the kobolds decide he's no longer worthy of their respect. Maybe the bugbear chieftain holds a grudge. Maybe in the battles the Dragon kills someone important (Whose caravans are they? Maybe the King's son goes into battle and dies?) and, you know...

...you can't predict the mess beyond a certain point, but as a DM, you can just keep adding complications as required.

Edit: The point being, that even if Dragon A has 22 Int, resolving this requires diplomacy, and parleying with the traders - and Dragons are known for being too "awesome" to talk to their food. What's his Wisdom? :smalltongue:

Balor01
2010-10-16, 08:31 AM
His wisdom is 20.

The problem is, these caravans are not formed of a bunch of helpless traders. They are accompanied by all sorts of mercenaries, mostly by powerful dwarven clerics. Taking them on would take a large force. A large force would mean an easy detection by dragon A and an assault by A's army.

If dragon B intervenes by himself, he will also be tracked down and killed or be forced to flee.

So more or less no-no on attacking the caravans.

Eldariel
2010-10-16, 11:26 AM
His wisdom is 20.

The problem is, these caravans are not formed of a bunch of helpless traders. They are accompanied by all sorts of mercenaries, mostly by powerful dwarven clerics. Taking them on would take a large force. A large force would mean an easy detection by dragon A and an assault by A's army.

If dragon B intervenes by himself, he will also be tracked down and killed or be forced to flee.

So more or less no-no on attacking the caravans.

Which is why you use PCs who are equivalent to a large force but a small group that's hard to detect and stealthy (right :smallbiggrin:)!

Valameer
2010-10-16, 12:40 PM
Dragon B makes sure he stays unknown for the time being, and subtly makes friends with some of the more powerful adventurers in the region.

Dragon B then attempts to waylay or harrass caravans, posing as dragon A. He could do this with breath weapon by nightfall, or by hiring some bugbears (dressing them in the garb of A's guards) or some such.

Dragon B tries to pin Dragon A as a menace to the countryside, and hires adventurers to stop him. B can always move away if things turn sour, but A is more pinned down.

Meanwhile, A quickly realises someone is trying to frame him and his forces, and hires his own band of spys/adventurers to pose as a caravan in hopes they will be attacked, and get to the bottom of this.

If people (traders, humanoids) already resent dragon A's toll booth, I think dragon B will have the advantage of capitalizing on people waiting for the opportunity to get rid of A.

Iferus
2010-10-16, 02:09 PM
When your opponent focuses on spies and divinations, the best line of attack is using the truth.


Get groups of minions to do tasks that work towards a plan. Be sure to tell every group of minions some false information about yourself and your plans. (e.g. We will rendevous there or I will not be here upon your return, as I will be at location X)

Have the minions work towards a semi-solid plan and get them to tell a coverup plan at first. The real master plan will be all your work, with perhaps the cooperation of a small team of PC's.


Assaulting supplies is the only real option at first, so that is either the cash from traders or the local food. Anything to destabilize the little empire. Of course there will be countermeasures, but those require at least some attention, which is all the distraction you need.

J.Gellert
2010-10-16, 03:27 PM
Easy plan:

"Hail adventurers! Great treasures shall be discovered by those who venture in Dragon A's lair! Slay the mighty beast and earn fame, fortune, and XPs!"

Potential problem:

"Hail adventurers! The oracle of Wyvern Mountain has prophesied that Dragon A cannot die unless he is pierced by the collarbone of Dragon B! So slay that mighty beast now!"

Balor01
2010-10-16, 05:23 PM
@Eladriel
At this point, PCs are way too weak to pull off something like that. Also, dragon is not stupid and will not give them items that would make them stronger and maybe even a threat to him.

I find this posing as A and bugbears at least interesting.

Peons are also a good idea. Suckers with wrong info, who will take the fall for the real spies.

@Firkraag
Well, ya ... EXCEPT for the fact that dragon A is well established trader and a powerful beast with an army of its own. Also, dwarfs could be greatly upset by such ruse. And we do not want upset dwarfs. Oh my, no. We would have clericzillas all around.

GoatBoy
2010-10-16, 07:47 PM
Don't worry TOO much about the details of the plan... just allow yourself to cheat a little.

If something unexpected happens, but you can imagine a creature of sufficiently advanced intelligence being able to foresee it, just assume the dragon had "already" planned for it. No one will ever know ;)

YMMV, but I successfully use "dirty" tricks like that all the time. My players never complain, and quite often they are pleased that they were able to overcome a challenge which had such a great advantage on them.

Godskook
2010-10-16, 08:10 PM
What dragons are these, specifically? Their personal resources and modus operandi would be largely helpful in determining what sort of plans they'd use on each other. And remember, arrogance is an emotion, not a result of low intelligence. Int 50 dragons still get it, so a paltry int 20 dragon would too.

Balor01
2010-10-17, 05:04 AM
Tnx Goat boy, this will come in handy.


What dragons are these, specifically? Their personal resources and modus operandi would be largely helpful in determining what sort of plans they'd use on each other

These are young blue dragons. Well, B is one category younger then A. While A has all mentioned at his disposal, B only has his wits, wings, lots of hp and electric breath to achieve his goal. And four low lvl PCs. So far.

FelixG
2010-10-17, 05:11 AM
about 400 followers is a pretty tiny army, if Dragon B was truly smart he would send the PCs out to gather a larger force (not too hard to beat 400 people.) THEN pose as dragon A and become a menace to the countryside, make it look like Dragon As appetite for treasure is growing the older it gets.

From there its a simple latter of starving out the pathetic humanoids with the army OR just fighting them in a battle of attrition.


ALSO if the PCs want to take on the caravans directly...tell them to use their imagination they are in an RPG! Mountains are notoriously known for landslides...do the dwarven clerics have "oh god stop a bunch a falling rocks" spell prepared that day? :D

Kaww
2010-10-17, 05:32 AM
...do the dwarven clerics have "oh god stop a bunch a falling rocks" spell prepared that day? :D

We are talking about dwarven clerics, right?

@OP, my 2c:

The younger dragon is a known figure to A? Right? Why wouldn't A let the adventurers come to him, and then redirect them to kill B, as leaders of his minions? Then the dragon ether gives the reward to PCs, or for the int 22, wis 20's sake he instructs his minions to kill the PCs after the dragon fight. Sneaky slaughter, while the PCs are tired and out of spells...

If I were A I would make my fortress divinationproof, disguise my minions as those hired by B or conceal them in an interesting way, so they follow the PCs without B knowing of their presence...

Just me thinking as A, then of course I'm not A.

Balor01
2010-10-17, 04:00 PM
FelixG
Gathering an army would definitely make a "blip" on dragon A's radar. And that would just cause him to make a preemptive search&destroy strike. Also, we may assume, dragon A is able to protect the caravans if themselves are unable to do so. (which is unlikely). At least in his area of influence.

Kaww:
PSc are not strong enough yet to kill dragon A. If they wold be, they would not even bother making a deal with B.

Actually I am thinking it might be best to get an extremely powerfull item here to one-shot-one-kill dragon A.

PopcornMage
2010-10-17, 04:03 PM
FelixG
Actually I am thinking it might be best to get an extremely powerfull item here to one-shot-one-kill dragon A.

Only do this if the PCs cannot think of a better way themselves.

As solutions go, it is kinda hackneyed.

Dracons
2010-10-17, 04:07 PM
His wisdom is 20.

The problem is, these caravans are not formed of a bunch of helpless traders. They are accompanied by all sorts of mercenaries, mostly by powerful dwarven clerics. Taking them on would take a large force. A large force would mean an easy detection by dragon A and an assault by A's army.

If dragon B intervenes by himself, he will also be tracked down and killed or be forced to flee.

So more or less no-no on attacking the caravans.

Then why are the caravans giving tolls and being afraid of dragon A if they can so easily whip the dragon B, who is on par with Dragon A? All the caravans team up, and even dragon A's army is no match from the clericzillas since they can already easily whip their leader's butt, they would even easier to crush.

Godskook
2010-10-17, 04:31 PM
Then why are the caravans giving tolls and being afraid of dragon A if they can so easily whip the dragon B, who is on par with Dragon A? All the caravans team up, and even dragon A's army is no match from the clericzillas since they can already easily whip their leader's butt, they would even easier to crush.

You misunderstood, the caravans are strong enough to pose a threat to the PCs, not Dragon B.

The threat to Dragon B is being exposed such that dragon A would track him down.

Kyouhen
2010-10-17, 05:28 PM
You aren't thinking big enough here. Your plans are focused on A's toll route. Nowhere near big enough for a dragon, and things like attacking those caravans are far too quick an action for a dragon.

Start by having B get the PCs to acquire disguises so they can masquerade as A's forces. Then send them to attack any caravans that AREN'T using A's route. Make sure there are survivors and make sure the caravans are on their way to/from a large city. Now it looks like A is forcing people to use his route, and that's bad business. Keep it up long enough and someone's going to decide to send troops to deal with A. For bonus points, have the PCs start attacking caravans closer and closer to the major cities so it looks like A is starting to expand his territory, and have B make one or two small night raids on such caravans to make people a little more concerned.

FelixG
2010-10-17, 09:12 PM
FelixG
Gathering an army would definitely make a "blip" on dragon A's radar. And that would just cause him to make a preemptive search&destroy strike. Also, we may assume, dragon A is able to protect the caravans if themselves are unable to do so. (which is unlikely). At least in his area of influence.


The dragon has Radar now?

And its heavy mountainous terrain, hiding 400 or more people in mountains should be relatively easy! Heck the optimal amount 1200 soldiers (a 3:1 advantage is ideal for attacking an entrenched enemy) should be easy to gather as well even if they are just peasants and sell-swords from surrounding areas.

If the players let the dragon find out about it its their own fault or DM fiat trying to smack them down.

Also they could cause landslides in the passes, that way dragon A has to commit manpower to clearing them, they can then take out the smaller teams of worker and bleed the dragon of manpower this way AND choke off trade at the same time.

There are many creative solutions to this issue the PCs should consider.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-17, 09:32 PM
Dragon B could always get a headband of intellect so he's smarter than Dragon A. :smallbiggrin:

Or he could try to lure Dragon A out by attacking his holdings. While Dragon A is distracted, the plucky adventures have time to infiltrate/blow stuff up/steal the mcguffin/cause mayhem in general.

Balor01
2010-10-18, 03:23 PM
@Dracons
Godskook explained a part, also, badass clerics are lvl 6-8. And Dragon A is sort of a mafia boss, with the exception that it already lives for hundreds of years (he survived all attempts on his life and business) and provides stability to this region for a decent amount of time. Dwarfs in my world being NG or just N, love the way things are. Fees are far below the prices caravans would pay for firepower, needed if dragon A was not there. Dragon B is not stupid enough to cause trouble in his underpowered position.

@Kyouhen
Just the frame of mind I was looking for :smallbiggrin:

@FelixG
Gathering and supplying an army takes time, supllies and weapons. Dragon A has his spies all over the region, also has acess to some divination spells.

@ArcanistSupreme
A totally not bad idea :smallbiggrin:

Diarmuid
2010-10-18, 03:33 PM
From what you've described and the ideas you've casually discarded it sounds like you've put some severely low level PC's in a pretty crappy scenario where they have very little chance of success/survival.

If the generic dwarven merchants/guards are that much better than the PC's and the dwarves are cowed by Dragon A....ya, good luck to em.

Kaww
2010-10-18, 03:52 PM
I'm sorry did you write the PC lvls somewhere? I'm unable to find it... :smallredface:

Balor01
2010-10-19, 08:43 AM
@Diarmuid
In fact I did. There is no way they will get trought this with weapons and blingy magics. But so far they did pull off some awesome stuff and did some great creative thinking when in a bad position and if they themselves like to get involved with such forces as they did ... who am I as a DM to stop them? :smallbiggrin:

@Kaww
Three of PCs are lvl 3 and one is lvl 4.