PDA

View Full Version : [4e] But I LIKE minions!



Zaq
2010-10-16, 05:41 PM
So, it's my turn to GM for our round-robin 4e game. We're level 7, and a standard four-person group with each role represented. However, I'm finding that I'm having a little bit of trouble with the encounter design.

See, we have a Wizard. And this Wizard has Enlarge Spell and Orb of Imposition. So his first action every encounter is to cast an enlarged and Orb-augmented Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation, which creates some enormously large party-friendly area of no-roll-required minion death. (The initial hit requires an attack roll, but it also automatically creates an area that does auto-damage to enemies who start their turns there... which pops minions, no questions asked). Now, on the whole, I'm ok with this power. I don't think that it's especially overpowered, or that it's unreasonable, and I don't want to simply stop using minions and make my friend's toy useless. He invested resources in this for a reason, and I want him to be able to use it. The problem is that it makes encounter design really difficult. I basically can't include minions at all, since they're guaranteed to die on the first round (and probably before they even get to go, surprise rounds notwithstanding). This means that I have to put in more standard enemies, which makes the combat tend to become a little bit on the difficult side (not inherently bad, but kind of limiting) and, more importantly, become longer.

So, how can I let my friend have his nice minion-popping toy without simply giving up on using minions at all? I don't want to just shut him down (that'd be as simple as saying that the minions I don't want autokilled "just happen" to have 2 points of resistance against the fire damage his zone auto-deals, or giving them [Level] HP instead of 1 HP, which won't be noticeable to anyone dealing real damage to them), both because it's not fair to him (this is a legitimate toy, and he should get to use it) and because it'd be obvious that I'm simply saying "no, it doesn't work" to him. I've tried having creatures that summon more minions, which worked decently well, but that was still a lot of bookkeeping, and I don't want to use the same trick in every fight. I've put in one or two combats without minions, but again, I don't want to tell him that he just doesn't get to use his powers because I can't handle them.

The zone is huge enough that I can't really spread the minions out on anything other than the widest of open fields (it's something stupid like Burst 4), so simply not clustering the minions won't do it. How can I let my friend continue to have his minion-blastin' fun without simply accepting that, for the purposes of encounter difficulty, any minions I add might as well no longer exist? I really like the concept of the minion (and there's a lot of fun things you can do with them when they actually get a chance to exist), but right now, things are kind of inconvenient. Any suggestions on how to deal with this with the minimum "no, goddammit, the minions get a turn or two" fiat possible?

Tengu_temp
2010-10-16, 05:46 PM
Ranged minions. Minions that explode when they die. Suicide berserker minions with better offense and lower defenses.

Aron Times
2010-10-16, 05:46 PM
Human Gnome wave attack. Each round, more cannibalistic gnomes appear to fight the party. You can justify it by the gnomes not thinking that they need a larger force to take on the party, and when the first wave dies, a second, and then a third wave of hungry munchkins attempt to eat the party's kneecaps. Another justification would be that the party managed to lock the only entrance to where they're holed up but a few gnominators managed to get through. However, the gate won't hold, and in a few rounds more hungry midgets are going to try and eat them.

Seriously, send monsters in waves.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-16, 05:48 PM
So, it's my turn to GM for our round-robin 4e game. We're level 7, and a standard four-person group with each role represented. However, I'm finding that I'm having a little bit of trouble with the encounter design.

See, we have a Wizard. And this Wizard has Enlarge Spell and Orb of Imposition. So his first action every encounter is to cast an enlarged and Orb-augmented Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation, which creates some enormously large party-friendly area of no-roll-required minion death. (The initial hit requires an attack roll, but it also automatically creates an area that does auto-damage to enemies who start their turns there... which pops minions, no questions asked). Now, on the whole, I'm ok with this power. I don't think that it's especially overpowered, or that it's unreasonable, and I don't want to simply stop using minions and make my friend's toy useless. He invested resources in this for a reason, and I want him to be able to use it. The problem is that it makes encounter design really difficult. I basically can't include minions at all, since they're guaranteed to die on the first round (and probably before they even get to go, surprise rounds notwithstanding). This means that I have to put in more standard enemies, which makes the combat tend to become a little bit on the difficult side (not inherently bad, but kind of limiting) and, more importantly, become longer.

So, how can I let my friend have his nice minion-popping toy without simply giving up on using minions at all? I don't want to just shut him down (that'd be as simple as saying that the minions I don't want autokilled "just happen" to have 2 points of resistance against the fire damage his zone auto-deals, or giving them [Level] HP instead of 1 HP, which won't be noticeable to anyone dealing real damage to them), both because it's not fair to him (this is a legitimate toy, and he should get to use it) and because it'd be obvious that I'm simply saying "no, it doesn't work" to him. I've tried having creatures that summon more minions, which worked decently well, but that was still a lot of bookkeeping, and I don't want to use the same trick in every fight. I've put in one or two combats without minions, but again, I don't want to tell him that he just doesn't get to use his powers because I can't handle them.

The zone is huge enough that I can't really spread the minions out on anything other than the widest of open fields (it's something stupid like Burst 4), so simply not clustering the minions won't do it. How can I let my friend continue to have his minion-blastin' fun without simply accepting that, for the purposes of encounter difficulty, any minions I add might as well no longer exist? I really like the concept of the minion (and there's a lot of fun things you can do with them when they actually get a chance to exist), but right now, things are kind of inconvenient. Any suggestions on how to deal with this with the minimum "no, goddammit, the minions get a turn or two" fiat possible?

Alarm type encounters! Why would all of the minions be standing in a room together anyway? Have an alarm go off when the battle starts, and every couple rounds have large groups of minions pour into the battle; to make it fair you could even have the guy who sounds the alarm be fairly obvious (liking carrying a magic gong) so your guys can kill him before he sets off the alarm. If you wanted to prevent it from becoming a TPK by drag, have the alarm go off till the gong is destroyed, so killing the gong ringer turns off the alarm and if they are not already in the room they assume the issue is over.

tcrudisi
2010-10-16, 05:52 PM
First, is he using the power properly? Even with Enlarge Spell, it is only a burst 2. It stays a burst 2 until the Wizards second turn, upon which he uses his Orb power to enlarge it by one more, making it a burst 3. So anything not in the burst 2 is fine. Yeah, burst 2 is big, but that shouldn't catch more than half the minions in it.

Secondly, have the minions come in after the first round of combat somehow. Minion generator, guy who brings them back to life in his aura, guy with power to bring them back, guy who summons them, etc. There are a lot of ways to bring them in (or back) after round 1.

Third, make the opportunity cost for killing the minions lower than doing something else. He's an Orb wizard, so if you put him against a solo with minions, he has a decision to make: use his orb power to lock down the solo or to kill the minions.

Xefas
2010-10-16, 06:06 PM
Minions that explode when they die.
Visual Aid:
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/BobombMinion.png

Loren
2010-10-16, 08:21 PM
Another way to get more use out of minions is to spread them out. Range minions work well for this, but meelee work too. If the minions aren;t bunched up it isn't possible to nail them all in a single attack.

Let say you design an encounter with 8 minions. Let's place it around a road in a forest some that there is plenty of room and some brushes to hide in and trees to move around. Let's put 3 minions in front of the party on the road. These are the candy for the wizard. The remaining 5 minions can be in the forest on either side of the road, 3 on one side, 2 on the other. Spread them out in lines along the road with about 4 spaces between them (I'd even be temped to put one or two archers up in the trees to get cover and be a challenge to reach). The flanking minions can be ranged attackers, forcing the party to spread out to get them, or meelees who rush into the party from different directions.

In Classical times, lightly armed units (guys in t-shirts with pointy stick) operated on the flanks of the primary battle groups (guys with big shields, heavy armour, and nasty bits of metal). One thing the light infantry could do was stand off to the side so that they they could out flank anyone trying to flank the heavies. Alternatively, they could move foreward and attack the sides and even rear of the opponent, giving advantages to the heavies (the battle of Cannae is a good example of this http://www.roman-empire.net/army/cannae.html ). Meelee minions make a respectible stand-in for light infantry of the day of yore.
You could put together a really challenging encounter with meelee minions operating on either side of a core of elite and soldiers, backed with disperesed ranged minions and an artillery or two.

------
edit Ilipa demonstates the strategem from Cannae in a simpler formate http://www.roman-empire.net/army/ilipa.html

Zaq
2010-10-16, 08:26 PM
Ranged minions. Minions that explode when they die. Suicide berserker minions with better offense and lower defenses.

Those only really work if they go before he does, and he's invested enough in his initiative to make that highly unlikely. Again, nothing that he's doing is out of line and is in fact quite reasonable, but it's very inconvenient for me.


Human Gnome wave attack. Each round, more cannibalistic gnomes appear to fight the party. You can justify it by the gnomes not thinking that they need a larger force to take on the party, and when the first wave dies, a second, and then a third wave of hungry munchkins attempt to eat the party's kneecaps. Another justification would be that the party managed to lock the only entrance to where they're holed up but a few gnominators managed to get through. However, the gate won't hold, and in a few rounds more hungry midgets are going to try and eat them.

Seriously, send monsters in waves.

This is pretty much what I was doing with the minion summoner. It's as good as I've gotten so far, and it seems to be what everyone's suggesting.


First, is he using the power properly? Even with Enlarge Spell, it is only a burst 2. It stays a burst 2 until the Wizards second turn, upon which he uses his Orb power to enlarge it by one more, making it a burst 3. So anything not in the burst 2 is fine. Yeah, burst 2 is big, but that shouldn't catch more than half the minions in it.

Secondly, have the minions come in after the first round of combat somehow. Minion generator, guy who brings them back to life in his aura, guy with power to bring them back, guy who summons them, etc. There are a lot of ways to bring them in (or back) after round 1.

Third, make the opportunity cost for killing the minions lower than doing something else. He's an Orb wizard, so if you put him against a solo with minions, he has a decision to make: use his orb power to lock down the solo or to kill the minions.

I'm pretty sure that he's using the power correctly. He casts the spell, taking a free action as he's doing so to make it last longer, make it bigger, and make it party-friendly, as the spell explicitly allows. Then he applies Enlarge Spell to make it one step bigger. It looks legit, so far as I can tell. Even if he applied it afterward, it'd still auto-kill minions.

It looks like everyone's suggesting just bringing in more and more minions after the first couple of rounds. I was hoping that there would be another answer, but it looks like that's as good as it gets. Any suggestions for dealing with their initiatives or starting positions? It's one thing when you're in a closed room (they just appear at the door), but what about in a more open area?

Loren
2010-10-16, 08:41 PM
but what about in a more open area?

See my post above

Urpriest
2010-10-16, 08:43 PM
Minions coming in after the first round isn't a bad solution.

The WotC boards have a bunch of threads about making minions more interesting, and one of the ideas thrown around is to make two-hit minions. These are exactly what they sound like: minions that you must damage twice to kill. They stop being trivial, but still give a pretty good minion feel. While they don't solve the difficult parts of minions entirely, I've heard good reviews.

shadowmage
2010-10-16, 08:49 PM
I'm pretty sure that he's using the power correctly. He casts the spell, taking a free action as he's doing so to make it last longer, make it bigger, and make it party-friendly, as the spell explicitly allows. Then he applies Enlarge Spell to make it one step bigger. It looks legit, so far as I can tell. Even if he applied it afterward, it'd still auto-kill minions.

Just so you know he should not be able to expand it till turn 2. From reading the Orb ability it only can be used on a power ending that turn. So first turn he can only expand the size with the Enlarge Spell feat and can still hit allies. Then next turn he can use his orb ability taking it to burst 3 and not hurting allies. So if you spread you minions out a little more some might survive for a turn.

From Rule compendium for ref.

Alternatively, you can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.

tcrudisi
2010-10-16, 08:54 PM
Just so you know he should not be able to expand it till turn 2. From reading the Orb ability it only can be used on a power ending that turn. So first turn he can only expand the size with the Enlarge Spell feat and can still hit allies. Then next turn he can use his orb ability taking it to burst 3 and not hurting allies. So if you spread you minions out a little more some might survive for a turn.

From Rule compendium for ref.

Alternatively, you can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.

This -- he's using it incorrectly. When he first uses it (on round 1), it is only burst 2. In round 2, when it would be going away, he uses the Orb to extend it and make it a burst 3. This gives your minions time to get away from the burst. It's a common mistake with that power, but he's inadvertently made it more powerful than it really is.

Zaq
2010-10-16, 08:54 PM
Just so you know he should not be able to expand it till turn 2. From reading the Orb ability it only can be used on a power ending that turn. So first turn he can only expand the size with the Enlarge Spell feat and can still hit allies. Then next turn he can use his orb ability taking it to burst 3 and not hurting allies. So if you spread you minions out a little more some might survive for a turn.

From Rule compendium for ref.

Alternatively, you can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.

I don't have the Rules Compendium, but as far as I know, Orb of Imposition is a free action that doesn't have a trigger, so it can be activated at any time. As to the timing in the power itself, it seems ambiguous at best, really. Hmmm. This is vexing.

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 08:57 PM
The Player's Handbook uses the same wording as to only those that would end at the end of the current turn being valid for Orb of Imposition.

Zaq
2010-10-16, 09:08 PM
Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation is a specific exception, Zaydos.


Orb of Imposition: You can extend the duration of this effect, even though it is not an at-will power. If you do so, the area expands to burst 3 and doesn’t affect you or your allies.

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 09:11 PM
Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation is a specific exception, Zaydos.

Exception to having to be an at-will, it said nothing about being an exception to the part of the rule in question (ending at the end of the current turn).

Zaq
2010-10-16, 09:17 PM
What? It...

Oh.

...Oh.

It has to end at the end of your current turn, like most (all?) at-wills do. It normally ends at the end of your next turn. I. Um. I think I need to talk to my Wizard friend, because that changes a LOT.

tcrudisi
2010-10-16, 09:18 PM
The power says: Orb of Imposition: You can extend the duration of this effect, even though it is not an at-will power. If you do so, the area expands to burst 3 and doesn’t affect you or your allies.

The Wizard Class Feature says: Orb of Imposition: ... Alternatively, you can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.

What you get from this is the power giving exception to the class feature. The class feature is now able to work on the power, (exception here) even though the power is an encounter power and not an at-will. However, it does not give exception to when this occurs, so the power must still end at the end of your current turn (read as: round 2 in our case).

If it did give exception to the timing, it would do so explicitly, like it does for the fact that you can use the Orb of Imposition feature on the power even though it's an encounter power.

However, this will only mitigate some of your problems, it won't solve it completely. Wizards are good at killing minions; it is one of their big roles. You will likely still need to implement one of the suggestions given to you before this, but at least you'll be able to see that this power is properly used.

/edit - Ninja'ed! My last paragraph still stands, though. Also, it may have been an honest mistake as I know that I screwed that power up the first time I used it, then another friend (who is also a walking rules book) screwed it up the first time he used it. That's... just a confusing power.

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 09:19 PM
What? It...

Oh.

...Oh.

It has to end at the end of your current turn, like most (all?) at-wills do. It normally ends at the end of your next turn. I. Um. I think I need to talk to my Wizard friend, because that changes a LOT.

The at-wills used in the example both end at the end of your next turn; but on your next turn they end at the end of your current turn.

Reluctance
2010-10-16, 11:12 PM
The whole "...if you do so, the area expands to burst 3 and doesn't affect your allies" part makes me wonder, since the autodamage zone is already party friendly. Still, that's more a case of funky wording than anything else.

If you want to keep minions viable, and spice up the battlefield as a side effect, remember LoE requirements. Partitions, pillars, and other ways of dividing up the battlefield can limit zones of death, while simultaneously rewarding the controller with the ability to make certain paths more or less attractive.

Zaq
2010-10-17, 12:36 AM
Well, I talked to the Wizard player with the new information about how Incendiary Detonation does and does not work, and while he was disappointed, he agreed (as it is, after all, what's in the book) and decided to swap out for a different power. He's still got enough AoEs to make short work of minions if he sets his mind to it, but he no longer has the ability to make the entire encounter a Minion Free Zone with no dice required, so that's a load off my mind. Thanks for pointing out that rules issue! We don't like breaking the rules when we don't have to, and it makes the encounter building so very much easier.

kieza
2010-10-17, 01:49 AM
A tactic you can use sparingly is to toss in a leader with a group of minions. Something that gives 5+1/2 level temp HP to a large group is enough to insulate minions from a large-area low-damage attack.

Another thing I used once or twice was a "shield generator" which took attacks aimed at creatures close to it...and had truly massive DR and 1 HP. Do a lot of damage to it, and it collapses, but that attack does nothing to the minions around it. And if you don't do enough damage, it's completely unscathed. (Or you could do what my group did and run inside the shield.)

Essentially, when you're running minions, you want it to take 2-3 rounds to take out most of them. Scatter them so that the wizard can't get more than 3 at a time, give them temp HP or resists, add a second wave 2 rounds in, or, and this is my favorite, give them high Stealth skills and have them hide as soon as they fire.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and ranged minions are great. The range on a longbow is 20/40. A lot of controller powers are range 10 or 20. A bunch of minions with bows, standing a long ways behind 2-3 soldiers, with fortifications, can do a lot of damage before the PCs can even get to them.

Mordokai
2010-10-17, 02:43 AM
There was a solo adventure in Dragon 382 from december 2009, called Dark Awakenings. In it, there were included tainted wisps, a level one lurker minions. Their special ability was their incorporeal form, which basically meant that every time you hit the wisp, you roll a d20. On a roll of 10+, the wisps survives the hit. Not shabby for an encounter power and it gives minion a decent survivability, especially if there's a lot of them.

It would be easy work to make minions of higher levels something like this. Undead have incoreal forms, kobolds have a shield and/or armor that is blown away with the first hit... use your imagination. The rules are easy to bend a little. Hell, if you want to be nasty, give this ability to some vermin like minions, but instead of ignoring the first hit, on a roll of 10+, they split. Now you have two minions where there was only one moments before. Of course, the spawn doesn't get the benefit of this power, since that would be just overkill.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-17, 03:38 AM
Well, I talked to the Wizard player with the new information about how Incendiary Detonation does and does not work, and while he was disappointed, he agreed (as it is, after all, what's in the book) and decided to swap out for a different power.
That's a good solution. Misreading OID is a common mistake; the power could have been worded better. Note that even when played as written, OID is still easily one of the most powerful wizard spells for that level.

Anyway, one of the strong points of the wizard class is that they will generally obliterate minions in the first round without breaking a sweat. To counteract this, use minions with resistances or stealth; leader monsters that respawn minions or give them temp HP; or minions that come from five directions at once, or arrive over several turns.

KillianHawkeye
2010-10-17, 08:32 AM
Although you may have resolved the current issue, here's some general advice:

Wizards are great at killing minions. Your player made a wizard who specializes in killing minions. Your player enjoys killing minions.

The solution therefore is not to stop using minions, but to use EVEN MORE minions.



Always do what's best for the game, and don't take away the things that are fun for your players. Of course, be sure to include some enemies for your other players to focus on!

tcrudisi
2010-10-17, 10:33 AM
Note that even when played as written, OID is still easily one of the most powerful wizard spells for that level.

Agreed - that player should still try out the power before swapping it out. It's still a very good power.


Although you may have resolved the current issue, here's some general advice:

Wizards are great at killing minions. Your player made a wizard who specializes in killing minions. Your player enjoys killing minions.

The solution therefore is not to stop using minions, but to use EVEN MORE minions.

Always do what's best for the game, and don't take away the things that are fun for your players. Of course, be sure to include some enemies for your other players to focus on!

And this, 100%. Well said, KillianHawkeye.

Tiki Snakes
2010-10-17, 10:53 AM
The solution therefore is not to stop using minions, but to use EVEN MORE minions.

I endorse this solution. :smallsmile:

dsmiles
2010-10-17, 11:13 AM
The solution therefore is not to stop using minions, but to use EVEN MORE minions.

I, too, submit my endorsement of this tactic. (Mostly because I also LOVE minions. They're just so miniony. :smallbiggrin:)

shadowmage
2010-10-17, 11:46 AM
Agreed - that player should still try out the power before swapping it out. It's still a very good power.

I agree as well. Instead of 2 turns of ally safe minion killing power he gets 3 rounds of minion killing power that if his allies can push or pull targets into he just effectively increases their damage and might offer some protection for 2 rounds, as enemies might not want to enter the damaging field. Minions for sure will stay out for the 2 other rounds if they are still around.

The Big Dice
2010-10-18, 09:44 AM
I, too, submit my endorsement of this tactic. (Mostly because I also LOVE minions. They're just so miniony. :smallbiggrin:)
There are some things that shouldn't get tougher, you should just get more of them.

Sipex
2010-10-18, 09:51 AM
In addition to the other recommendations here try using your resist fire idea creatively.

Say...make a minion (or leader type monster) who has a burst aura which gives all allies within resist 5 to fire. This way the minions resist the damage unless they leave the aura or the offending creature is killed. Your wizard will see this (with a good knowledge check, or maybe give it away from the start) and work towards getting that monster shifted away or killed.

Also, agreed with the exploding minions. Try the mushroom men (I forget their formal name) from the Monster Manual 2. Their spore minions damage enemies and heal allies. I've never wanted to avoid killing minions so much as when we ran into those.

Zaydos
2010-10-18, 09:53 AM
I hate exploding minions.

One of the two times in the entire campaign my swordmage got bloodied was when the DM used exploding minions... although that might also have been because he hadn't had time to prepare before hand so they had the highest attack bonus we'd seen (actually hit me on a 10 I think) and dealt 3d6+Y (I forget the exact bonus) damage. The next time we encountered them they were laughable (they dealt Y damage and needed a 19 or 20 to hit me); so that might have just been badly balanced homebrew.

I still hate exploding minions.

Aerodynamik
2010-10-18, 10:06 AM
Minions are my favorite part of DMing 4e Combats. Most of the ways that people use to spice up minions have already been mentioned (Exploding minions, ranged minions, waves of minions, having 30+ minions on the board at once, etc.) But it doesn't look like anyone mentioned a favorite tactic of mine, the super-minion.

A super-minion is a minion that takes two hits to drop. The first hit bloodies it, and the second will defeat it. It works pretty well for large combats, and will allow your minions added survivability and make then much more of a threat, without resorting to having your minion explode.

(I ran an adventure once where every encounter was based upon using a minion that would explode when defeated. I thought it was great. The party's defender hated it.)

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-10-18, 10:10 AM
There are some things that shouldn't get tougher, you should just get more of them.
More Dakka (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoreDakka)

Person_Man
2010-10-18, 10:51 AM
Yeah, reinforcements is definitely the way to go if your player has such a power, and that's true in any game. Having said that, make sure that you don't pull it out too often. If your player has found a useful but not game breaking way to have fun in combat, you should let him do so most of the time without effectively rendering it useless.

dsmiles
2010-10-18, 11:24 AM
More Dakka (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoreDakka)

'Tis true. You can never have enough DAKKA!

Loren
2010-10-18, 03:33 PM
If you are considering using lots of minions I recommend using low level minions. Basically, it they are just going to be destroyed out of hand you might as well minize their cost in your xp budget so that you can provide more. This can get taken to a pretty extreme level though;

lvl 1 minion = 25 xp
lvl 7 xp for 4 characters = 1,200
therefore, it is possible to field 48 minions in a lvl 7 encounter

If you really want to be cruel, send them all in at once as opposed to in waves. Even with the wizard making a perfect shot with up to 48 minions it would be entirely possible to totally swamp your PCs by the end of the first round.

While it would be amusing to see how players react to a scene like, ``As you pass through the massive crypt the bones begin to move! There are skeletons rising from their graves all around you!
player, "how many are there"
DM, "oh...um"*looks at notes* "About four dozen"
It might not be a ploy you want to use too often. Low level minions can make good canon fodder and flanking partners you probably still want to have some normal monsters in the encounter to prevent monoteny.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-18, 03:40 PM
If you are considering using lots of minions I recommend using low level minions. Basically, it they are just going to be destroyed out of hand you might as well minize their cost in your xp budget so that you can provide more.

Also, don't be afraid to use two or three times as many minions as the XP budget would indicate. It is well-known that, especially against a group with decent area attacks or autohits, minions aren't nearly worth the XP listed for them.

Sipex
2010-10-18, 03:40 PM
If you are considering using lots of minions I recommend using low level minions. Basically, it they are just going to be destroyed out of hand you might as well minize their cost in your xp budget so that you can provide more. This can get taken to a pretty extreme level though;

lvl 1 minion = 25 xp
lvl 7 xp for 4 characters = 1,200
therefore, it is possible to field 48 minions in a lvl 7 encounter

If you really want to be cruel, send them all in at once as opposed to in waves. Even with the wizard making a perfect shot with up to 48 minions it would be entirely possible to totally swamp your PCs by the end of the first round.

While it would be amusing to see how players react to a scene like, ``As you pass through the massive crypt the bones begin to move! There are skeletons rising from their graves all around you!
player, "how many are there"
DM, "oh...um"*looks at notes* "About four dozen"
It might not be a ploy you want to use too often. Low level minions can make good canon fodder and flanking partners you probably still want to have some normal monsters in the encounter to prevent monoteny.

This actually gives me a decent idea for an encounter.

Find the Lich in the Skeleton Horde

Make a lich which has the ability to blend in with a crowd of the same looking things (ie: skeletons) then spawn an un-ending stream of skeleton mooks. Each round new skeletons will enter to replace the old ones. Meanwhile your lich makes a minor action to stealth with +2 for each adjacent skeleton to it (+16 max) at which point it can move through the crowd unnoticed (although it's stealth check reduces if it has less mooks nearby). The PCs can make active perception checks or just blast through the crowd trying to get to it.

Loren
2010-10-18, 03:46 PM
sure, now that idea hinges on another point. Never tell the players which monsters are minions. If they ask, have them role an appropriate check and give them a relative power difference. To make this work well do it in encounters without minions too, so that when you say "dude x looks weaker than dude y" they can't assume it means x is a minion.

ps I really like the liche idea.

Mando Knight
2010-10-18, 03:50 PM
It might not be a ploy you want to use too often. Low level minions can make good canon fodder and flanking partners you probably still want to have some normal monsters in the encounter to prevent monoteny.

That's all they would be, though. Cannon fodder. They're more like obstacles than targets.

For comparison: a Level 6 Swordmage I'm currently playing has 24 AC and +13 to-hit, as well as 64 HP. A decrepit skeleton (level 1 minion) has 16 AC and +6 to-hit for 4 damage. It has only a 15% chance of hitting him for 1/16th his HP, while he has an 85% chance of obliterating them. With combat advantage (i.e. flanking), they boost their hit-chance to 25%, meaning it'll average to one attack per hit point. That's 64 attacks, not including his healing surges. 48 level 1 minions aren't going to be dropping him.

The only thing they'd be good for is swarming the characters so they can't maneuver or at least always grant flanking to a monster that's an actual threat.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-18, 07:01 PM
That's all they would be, though. Cannon fodder. They're more like obstacles than targets.

For comparison: a Level 6 Swordmage I'm currently playing has 24 AC and +13 to-hit, as well as 64 HP. A decrepit skeleton (level 1 minion) has 16 AC and +6 to-hit for 4 damage. It has only a 15% chance of hitting him for 1/16th his HP, while he has an 85% chance of obliterating them. With combat advantage (i.e. flanking), they boost their hit-chance to 25%, meaning it'll average to one attack per hit point. That's 64 attacks, not including his healing surges. 48 level 1 minions aren't going to be dropping him.

The only thing they'd be good for is swarming the characters so they can't maneuver or at least always grant flanking to a monster that's an actual threat.

Have them each hold a pot of alchemical fire, and douse the party in it.

If this were a 3.5 discussion I could make this work on thousands of levels, but I have little mastery of 4E.

Loren
2010-10-18, 07:10 PM
Mando knight: hence, vast amounts of minions would produce a rather monotemous and boring fight, although the round or two before the players realised what was happening could be exciting. My point basically is that minions are road bumps, so it often doesn't pay to always be using the ones closest to the players level. You can put out low level ones to give encounters scale.