Would it be possible?

[BassThree]

A while back, I was reading a forum when a post came up that really got me thinking. It said something along the lines of the Linear Guild overpowering team evil (Redcloak, Tsukiko, and Xykon) to seize control of a gate. (I forget who said it, sorry I can't give credit.) Would it be possible for Nale to come up with a plan with the following resources:
-A high level Half Orc Barbarian
-The fiend Sabine
-Himself, a warrior/sorcerer who has only been seen enchanting people as his magic
-(If none of that works,I guess you could assume he hired someone, but they can't be more powerful than Thog.)

[Grendus]

Not a prayer.

Linear Guild:
Tier 5 Barbarian
Tier 2 Sorcerer/Fighter/Rogue (horribly optimized)
Tier 4 Fiend Rogue

Team Evil:
Tier 2 Epic Lich Sorcerer
Tier 1 Cleric
Tier 1 Mystic Theurge (technically Mystic Theurge isn't a very optimized class as you lose ECL, but it still combines tier 1 classes)

Normally I wouldn't compare tiers, but since we're dealing with higher level characters the differences in power level are very apparent. Speaking of levels, Xykon is estimated to be level 27! Redcloak is level 15+ (Belkar estimates he may be 17+), and Tsukiko is at least level 14. While we don't know the levels for the Linear Guild, they're probably lower level than the OOTS who are themselves around level 15.

Meanwhile, all of Team Evil have very high will saves, which makes Nale's magic completely worthless. Sabine might have a prayer against Tsukiko or Redcloak if she got an ambush, but it's very unlikely: Tsukiko survived a triple sneak attack from Haley, who is higher level and was using a +3 bow and +2 flaming arrows, and Redcloak is higher level than she is and gets d6 instead of d4 hit points. And Thog? Tsukiko could dominate him, Redcloak could blast him or summon something 20 times his size and step on him. Xykon could probably take him out with his lich natural attack, he wouldn't even need to waste a spell.

So no, there isn't a plan in the world that would allow the Linear Guild to overcome Team Evil, short of a DM "rocks fall" type of event. It's just not happening.

[Dr.Epic]

Not a prayer.

Yeah, the three* main people leading Team Evil have more levels and are better at pulling a plan together. Not to mention they have an entire army and whatever :mitd: is.

*edit: Oh, forgot Jirix who also has some levels.

[Bongos]

They'd need an edge for sure, like finding ol Xykon's phylactery and using that to their advantage, for example. Or maybe with a little help from the IFCC.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

If the plot turned out that way, sure, the Giant would find a way to make it work at least semi-believably. But realistically, it's just not going to happen, ever.

[derfenrirwolv]

I;ve got even money on The linear guild vs Redcloak OR against Tusiko. Against xykon or all three forget it. They simply don't have any way of dealing enough damage before thog is charmed/held, Sabine is dismissed back home and.. well... Nale lost a swordfight to elan. Either tusikio or redcloak could probably wear him down in a slapfight if they had to.

[King of Nowhere]

Not in a figth, that no. No matter how good the plan, team evil is simply too much more powerful to be beaten by the linear guild. However, direct figthing isn't the only way ofdefeating someone.
For example, Nale's schemes may bring Redcloak against Tsukiko, and Xykon against both. There are huge cracks in team evil, and Nale may be able to exploit them to make team evil's member to figth each other, or at least to broke up.
Which would leave only Xykon to figth.
At this point, maybe Nale could find a way to send Xykon to death after smashing against some gate's defence. That way, he would have defeated team evil without making a single attack roll.

Not to mention, he may be able to force them to figth in an anti-magic field somehow, without a chance of getting out. Without magic, team evil would lose surely.
I know Xykon could cast epic spells anyway, but none of the epic spells we've seen him using is combat-oriented.

Not that I'm saying it's likely, but I won't dismiss the chance that way. Never understimate what a good strategy can do.

[RndmNumGen]

Not a prayer.

Tier 1 Mystic Theurge (technically Mystic Theurge isn't a very optimized class as you lose ECL, but it still combines tier 1 classes)

Mystic Theurge is a -1 Tier PRC (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0). That means it is at most Tier 2.

Still pretty powerful though compared to say, Barbarian.

[Uncertainty]

I know Xykon could cast epic spells anyway, but none of the epic spells we've seen him using is combat-oriented.

While I agree with the point you are trying to make, I feel obligated to point out that the Superb Dispelling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) Xykon used to destroy Darth V was an epic spell. Also, magic or no, Xykon has at least ten levels on the Linear Guild, and a whole host of racial abilities... Like you said, it's possible, just extremely unlikely.

[Ancalagon]

I know Xykon could cast epic spells anyway, but none of the epic spells we've seen him using is combat-oriented.

Don't worry. We'll see it.

We know about Xykon that he thinks as much power as possible in the hightest concentration possible is the thing that makes you win.

It seems outright ridiculous to me to think such a character was able to develop cast epic spells but did not develop a spell that puts A LOT of power in a small place. I'm simply not seeing this.

Also, argued from a pure plot-point-of-view: We are like 75ish% or so through the story and Xykon has shown to use level 12 slots and two epic spells. I tell you: there HAS to be an escalation before the end. But what escalation can there be if you have a caster that dishes out level 12 spellslots?
There's going to be another epic that is going to be above and beyond everything we have seen so far in regard to single spells. And given who and what Xykon is - it will be "a blast".

[PopcornMage]

Xykon is a big believer in not playing your high cards before time. So any lack of bomb dropping is because he just didn't want to do it at the time.

[Ancalagon]

Xykon is a big believer in not playing your high cards before time. So any lack of bomb dropping is because he just didn't want to do it at the time.

Of course. And it also has story reasons.

Read to what I replied.

The fact we did not yet see "the bomb" does not mean it's not there. And it seems highly unlikely Xykon does not have one. It's either going to be "The Ultimate Energy Drain" or something as "The Ultimate Disintegrate".

[TheBlackShadow]

Seems to me that since Nale is pretty invested in the whole "Evil Opposites" thing, he's likely taken an overpowered prestige class of his own by now. Also, it seems to me that part of the reason Nale lost to Elan in the duel in Azure City was because he was dressed for a night out and thus bereft of most of his magic items. Probably won't be much good against Xykon, but its something to consider.

Plus, the Linear Guild's plans aren't really that bad. Both times the Order has encountered them, they only won by a hair's breadth - a deus ex machina in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and pure bad luck in Azure City (had Pompey and Leeky done their jobs, Nale would have been warned about Elan well in advance; and had Elan not, by sheer chance, run into Julio Scoundrel in Cliffport, he might never have reached Azure City at all, and even if he did, he would be minus his swanky new prestige class).

Don't forget either that the Guild are backed up by the IFCC, who could likely find a few strings to pull for them and arrange certain resources, contacts &c, though how Nale will react if/when he finds out is an unknown quantity.

Finally, if the Linear Guild is going to show up again, they're going to have a host of new recruits - gods know they've been gone long enough to find a few half-decent mooks.

Don't get me wrong, I still don't think the LG have a chance against Team Evil, but I also think they shouldn't be underestimated as much as they currently seem to be.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

Plus, the Linear Guild's plans aren't really that bad. Both times the Order has encountered them, they only won by a hair's breadth - a deus ex machina in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and pure bad luck in Azure City (had Pompey and Leeky done their jobs, Nale would have been warned about Elan well in advance; and had Elan not, by sheer chance, run into Julio Scoundrel in Cliffport, he might never have reached Azure City at all, and even if he did, he would be minus his swanky new prestige class).

Belkar utterly destroyed Yikyik, Sabine ran away after getting shot once, Thog actively surrendered, and Nale just blatantly ran from Roy. Zz'dtri would have defeated V and may or may not have been able to help his comrades win, but we'll just never know, because the truth is, V did come up with an easy way to get rid of him. The only real advantages the Linear Guild ever had in that battle were the submission of Elan and Durkon early on, and that's only because they had the element of surprise.

As for the battle in Azure City... well, yeah, that's true, I suppose. But at the same time, because Pompey and Leeky didn't do their jobs and Elan did meet Julio Scoundrel, the Order did win. There is no way we could possibly know the Linear Guild would have won had none of that happened, for the simple reason that all that did happen. And if none of that happened, a new host of random chance events would have. Maybe the Linear Guild would have won that fight. But there's no way to tell. It's completely possible that the Order would have won anyway.


Finally, if the Linear Guild is going to show up again, they're going to have a host of new recruits - gods know they've been gone long enough to find a few half-decent mooks.

Nale heavily implies here that he is going to stick to the three Guild members they have now. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)

[Morquard]

I don't really like simply comparing Tiers and then saying "Well its a higher tier so they wipe the floor with them".

Wizards and Clerics are tier 1 because they can prepare all kinds of spells to fit the situation best today, and tomorrow they can prepare completely different spells to fit a completely different situation.

Now if Nale tried to play it smart he'd somehow get Redcloak and Tsukiko to prepare spells for something so completely different than from what he's actually going to do that they're both practically worthless.

Xykon being a sorcerer still will have all his spells still of course.

Also yes, Nale is a master-manipulator, seeing that there's tension between RC and Tsukiko and between Xykon and RC takes no genius, so he might try to drive a wedge in there first.
So maybe that way he can get Xykon to waste a couple of his high level spells on RC that he doesn't have available against them then.

And of course there's the MitD as a wildcard. I don't think Nale will be able to turn him against Xykon, so he'll fight for him. But as we don't know what he actually is, we don't know how he'll affect the fight. He might just sneeze accidently and kill half the LG for all we know.

I agree, in a frontal assault the LG gets obliterated. But frontal assaults aren't Nale's speciallity, which is backstabbing and betrayal.
I'm still not sure if they could overpower Xykon no matter what. Maybe with preparations and knowing a Lich's weakness and getting scrolls/wands or a new member with an appropriate PrC to exploit that weakness?

But I think the plot will inevitably go for a confrontation between Roy and Xykon at the last gate, and Elan vs Nale at one point before that, anything else would be a disappointment.

[DragonOfUndeath]

He might just sneeze accidently and kill half the LG for all we know.

how do you kill 1/2 of 3 people?

[Alagaesian]

how do you kill 1/2 of 3 people?

Considering the whole 'escape' thing, he probably CAN kill one and a half people.

The only problem with Nale's manipulation is that he needs to have observed Team Evil's conflicts before he can exploit them. I don't think it's possible for them to spy on three high-level characters without getting caught and blasted. Perhaps they could start working for Team Evil or 'help out' in finding the gate or something, but the chances of that against Xykon just Meteor Swarming them are pretty low.

However, there still is a situation where the Linear Guild might come out on top. In all three gates that Team Evil has tried to take so far, there have been near-impenetrable defenses. Heck, Xykon and Redcloak nearly DIED at Soon's Gate. Perhaps Girand's is similar, with illusions that make them fire on their teammates or themselves, or walk into pits of acid, or something. Or maybe we can consider Kraagor's Gate, which is filled with high-level monsters that may be immune to Xykon's lightning and fire spells.

When Team Evil escapes an encounter with a gate's defenses, they'll probably be low on health with almost no spells. Heck, Xykon my be pounded to dust again. If the Linear Guild waits until then to make their attack and are properly prepared, then winning the fight might be possible.

[DragonOfUndeath]

The only problem with Nale's manipulation is that he needs to have observed Team Evil's conflicts before he can exploit them. I don't think it's possible for them to spy on three high-level characters without getting caught and blasted. Perhaps they could start working for Team Evil or 'help out' in finding the gate or something.

they DID work for him at one point

[TheBlackShadow]

Belkar utterly destroyed Yikyik, Sabine ran away after getting shot once, Thog actively surrendered, and Nale just blatantly ran from Roy. Zz'dtri would have defeated V and may or may not have been able to help his comrades win, but we'll just never know, because the truth is, V did come up with an easy way to get rid of him. The only real advantages the Linear Guild ever had in that battle were the submission of Elan and Durkon early on, and that's only because they had the element of surprise.

But that engagement would never have happened at all if it were not for the "When the goat turns, red strikes true" message from Eugene, which, to me, still seems to be a deus ex machina because we don't have any idea where it came from in the story - Eugene, nor any other character save the Oracle, has shown any such foretelling capabilities since. Considering Eugene didn't have any money with which to pay the Oracle, I think we can assume the message didn't come from there, and seems slightly cryptic even for him.

If it wasn't for that message, the Guild would have got away safe and sound, and the Order would have been overwhelmed by monsters. Hence, the Dorukan's Dungeon encounter was largely won by a deus ex machina.

I will agree that the Guild don't stand up to the Order in a straight fight, however.

[Souhiro]

(technically Mystic Theurge isn't a very optimized class as you lose ECL, but it still combines tier 1 classes)

MT isn't a great class to PC, but a NPC, whose level is set up by the GM, it can be Hell with a Chainsaw: It don't mind what kind of spell is required, the Mystic Theurge can use it! and in this comic, the only time a wizard finds that needs a spell that hadn't prepared was Vaarsuvius, with the SONIC!! spells.