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WarKitty
2010-10-16, 07:34 PM
I have a couple of encounters called for in my game for the PC's to face off against a single high-level boss (possibly with a few minions, but I try to keep the number of opponents down for time's sake). Now since not all of these bosses are primary casters, they will obviously need magic items to stand a fighting chance. We're talking level 15-16 bosses against a party of level 11's.

Here's the issue: how do I kit out NPC's like this so they stand a chance against the casters, without giving the PC's too much treasure? When I try to kit a full melee so they stand a chance, they end up having at least the amount of wealth in items that a PC of equivalent level would have. I don't want my players to have that much, but I don't have any other ways to make my enemy melee survive long enough to be a decent boss.

Valameer
2010-10-16, 07:39 PM
Isn't there a rule somewhere about turning magic items into tattoos? Sorry, I don't know the source, but that might be an option.

Also if the enemies use a lot of one-shot items like beads of force, elemental gems, or poison. They could also specialize in a weird weapons like gnome-hook hammers, or something.

Maybe they used an oil of magic vestment instead of +1 armor. Things like that.

Players might sense a pattern here, though :smallsmile:

Eldan
2010-10-16, 07:40 PM
Vow of Poverty?

Urpriest
2010-10-16, 07:41 PM
Be aware that an NPC of PC wealth is a higher CR than an NPC with normal NPC wealth. I realize that you're probably of the "screw CR, I want this character to actually pose a challenge!" opinion, but it's worth noting that giving them the treasure they're supposed to have as NPCs would solve part of your problem. They'd still have 3xstandard treasure, but most of it won't be useful since it will be lower-level items, so you're really only giving 1.5xstandard treasure once the PCs sell all the useless swords and whatnot.

blackjack217
2010-10-16, 07:41 PM
or use an intelligent magic item or such that gives negative levels. Or when you kill him he bursts into flame and his equipment is consumed. Or he took a vow of poverty

GoatBoy
2010-10-16, 07:42 PM
Hmm, I've never tried something like using a +4 weapon or +6 stat item that "mysteriously" downgrades after its owner dies and the PC's loot it... has anyone had any experience with this idea? Is there any method by which the players might notice?

If you have a larger-sized creature in mind, you could use things like wind, or even flowing water or undergrowth, which have a larger effect on smaller creatures.

There's also grafts, which normally can't be looted.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-16, 07:42 PM
I have a couple of encounters called for in my game for the PC's to face off against a single high-level boss (possibly with a few minions, but I try to keep the number of opponents down for time's sake). Now since not all of these bosses are primary casters, they will obviously need magic items to stand a fighting chance. We're talking level 15-16 bosses against a party of level 11's.

Here's the issue: how do I kit out NPC's like this so they stand a chance against the casters, without giving the PC's too much treasure? When I try to kit a full melee so they stand a chance, they end up having at least the amount of wealth in items that a PC of equivalent level would have. I don't want my players to have that much, but I don't have any other ways to make my enemy melee survive long enough to be a decent boss.

Potions. Scroll.
Permanency casting of spells (G.Magic fang, etc).
Craft Contingency spell effects (complete Arcane?). this allows them to auto-buffed at start of battle (and costly so you can use up NPC wealth).
Magical Locations grant many feats/abilities for cost (can't gain this ability unless gone themselves).

Give us an example guy and we can help kit them without too much lootsable treasure.

Example:
You can gain Sudden Empower/Sudden Maximize each 1/day (up to 7 times or 1 year whichever comes first) for a low cost at one magical location.

Everflame (Fire resist)/Pool of Frozen Souls (Cold Resist) at another location.

WarKitty
2010-10-16, 07:49 PM
The last one was a Rogue 5/Assassin 10. I am well aware that NPC's are supposed to have less wealth, but the PC's are pseudo-gestalt and there's 8 of them. Standard wealth means the NPC's get flattened in one round.

boomwolf
2010-10-16, 07:59 PM
Its simple.

Give him crappy magic items (one a set of items equals in power to what a party member is likely to have already), and make his level even higher to compensate.

The increased BAB, HD, saves, skillpoints and extra abilities can be far more useful then a few magical trinkets. and they also give an impression of "damn this guy is ****ing strong, lucky us we collected all these magical items or he would have blows us to narnia..." feel.

Besides, when your level 11 PCs vanquish an NPC thats not a pure melee yet get even more attacks then their own pure melee, they have a strong feeling of accomplishment.

So in short, dish out well trained enemies instead of well equipped ones. spend that money an evil organization probably has on arming the armies of mooks with weak magic trinkets the party won't have much value in, but will be handy in mass-production.

Also, as said, use one-shot items. they give good power for cost, and the party does not get them afterwords.

cooperflood
2010-10-16, 08:05 PM
Just give them what ever bonuses you feel they need to be competitive and then call it a day. You are the DM and shouldn't feel any obligation to "justify" an NPC's stats. Grafts, Intelligent Items, tattoos, location bonuses, and what not just end up creating more work you and in way make the game more fun to play.

However if you really feel the need to justify stats just give them the "Major NPC Template." This template can be added to any creature and gives what ever bonuses the DM deems appropriate. However it comes with the draw back that the creature is doomed to die to pack of savage, cold blooded murderers.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-16, 08:11 PM
However if you really feel the need to justify stats just give them the "Major NPC Template." This template can be added to any creature and gives what ever bonuses the DM deems appropriate. However it comes with the draw back that the creature is doomed to die to pack of savage, cold blooded murderers.

i am sigging this

WarKitty
2010-10-16, 08:13 PM
Just give them what ever bonuses you feel they need to be competitive and then call it a day. You are the DM and shouldn't feel any obligation to "justify" an NPC's stats. Grafts, Intelligent Items, tattoos, location bonuses, and what not just end up creating more work you and in way make the game more fun to play.

However if you really feel the need to justify stats just give them the "Major NPC Template." This template can be added to any creature and gives what ever bonuses the DM deems appropriate. However it comes with the draw back that the creature is doomed to die to pack of savage, cold blooded murderers.

I know I *can* but I try not to fiat things like that if I don't have to. I'd prefer to do things within the rules if possible and reserve fiat for when I absolutely need it.

blackjack217
2010-10-16, 08:13 PM
Just give them what ever bonuses you feel they need to be competitive and then call it a day. You are the DM and shouldn't feel any obligation to "justify" an NPC's stats. Grafts, Intelligent Items, tattoos, location bonuses, and what not just end up creating more work you and in way make the game more fun to play.

However if you really feel the need to justify stats just give them the "Major NPC Template." This template can be added to any creature and gives what ever bonuses the DM deems appropriate. However it comes with the draw back that the creature is doomed to die to pack of savage, cold blooded murderers.

he gets the supernatural ability: contractual one shot immunity

HunterOfJello
2010-10-16, 08:15 PM
good templates are useful for this

boomwolf
2010-10-16, 08:25 PM
I came up with another idea, but it's a bit evil. but I DO use it when party wealth gets too high due to some mistake of mine (or a series of NPC enemies.)

Have enemies target items from time to time. yaknow, Shatter spells, sunder attacks, all sort of nasty things. even send in specialized anti-item monsters from time to time (rust monster, and the SRD got some magic-item-eating spider, forgot his name...probably more of these sort in other books.)

Eldariel
2010-10-16, 08:30 PM
Potions. Scroll.
Permanency casting of spells (G.Magic fang, etc).
Craft Contingency spell effects (complete Arcane?). this allows them to auto-buffed at start of battle (and costly so you can use up NPC wealth).
Magical Locations grant many feats/abilities for cost (can't gain this ability unless gone themselves).

Give us an example guy and we can help kit them without too much lootsable treasure.

Example:
You can gain Sudden Empower/Sudden Maximize each 1/day (up to 7 times or 1 year whichever comes first) for a low cost at one magical location.

Everflame (Fire resist)/Pool of Frozen Souls (Cold Resist) at another location.

Yeah, these tend to be cheap, and they won't be left for the PCs afterwards. An excellent way. I'd say something but I'd just be repeating this.

Kulture
2010-10-16, 09:21 PM
Alchemical doping works well.
Pathfinder alchemists make some of the best elite mooks I've seen in terms of humanoids with classes, mainly because their primary gear is expendable.
Don't want your NPC to carry a belt of giant's strength +4 but the potion won't last long enough? Eternal potion effect of bull's strength.
Need a quirky mini-boss squad?
Go Tucker's Kobolds style with a unit of alchemical door kickers who start the encounter by breaching with a sundering force bomb before throwing in some flash bombs.
Need a tangible reason for normally unfeasable attributes? Such as alchemically gained feats, traits, templates or weapons?
Make the use of the drugs a death sentence in the long run, such as Nectar from the ill-fated videogame Haze (which I liked).
Sure, your PCs can use the super-serum, but they can expect to resemble Satyr Gypsie from Alucarda when they come down from their high, or for reference to those who haven't seen the movie, like Mr Tumness if he drank the run-off from Chernobyll's 4th reactor.
Kaorti resin is a marvelous substance to use for magic weaponry and armour.
It gives rediculous bonuses and needs to be stablised.
Unstablised Kaorti resin degrades quickly, so your party will need to take both a feat and find a method to stablise the gear in order to use it and any item can be made of the resin.

Godskook
2010-10-16, 09:26 PM
Give them a single level of wizard, level of cleric, plus scrolls of whatever buff spells they need. Even caster lvl 20 scrolls of GMW are incredibly cheap, and any credible non-caster threat would try to keep such scrolls handy for emergencies. Doing this only increases the CR by 1, but allows you to have a good deal of magic on a NPC without letting the PCs have it when they kill him.

Spells that make good scrolls for an NPC(different from for a PC, since price isn't as much of an obstacle):

GMWeapon - 1500gp(times however many weapons they use)
Magic Vestments - 1500gp(x2 if they use a shield)
Heart of x spells - 2350gp
-Air - 150gp
-Water - 375gp
-Earth - 700gp
-Fire - 1125gp

So far, we've got the equivalent of +5 weapons, +5 armor and +5 shields, immunity to critical hits and precision damage, and a bunch of miscellaneous effects that could prove highly useful against the right party. All for about 8350gp(for two weapons, armor, shield, and 1 set of hearts). That's out of the 59kgp a NPC of level 15 should be carrying, according to the table on page 127 of the DMG. Oh, and greater teleport is only 2275gp, which is totally worth it as an "Oh crap, I'm about to die" scroll, even for a PC.

Urpriest
2010-10-16, 09:29 PM
In a similar vein, you can have an allied caster dope them up with long-to-mid-duration buffs before they head out to fight.

Ormur
2010-10-16, 09:38 PM
They have UMD and spent all their money on scrolls and nearly depleted wands used to buff themselves to ridiculous levels before the battle. This of course requires the enemies to know that they're going to face the PCs.

They are of a class that can use magic items useless to anyone in the party so they have to sell them at half price, reducing the loot by half. You can also perfectly legitimately make all of the items "cursed" so they only work for a class or species or alignment, whichever none of the PCs share. They might still be able to sell the stuff at a discount. Realistically they'd have to have some special reason to have all of their magic items custom built explaining why everyone doesn't use items like that, like being of some order that has a dedicated item creation spellcaster on hand.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-16, 09:42 PM
Incarnum to the rescue!!!! or do the Oblivion sthing ans have them as "summoned" weapons that dissapear or become useless after the user's death.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-16, 09:52 PM
Yanno, there's this really cute enhancement called Unholy. If you aren't Evil, you take a negative level just picking it up. Most people wouldn't want to use something like that...

In the campaign I'm currently running, the BBEG Necromancer has these really wierd skeletal things with SLA's that are powered through draining life essence. The weapons they wield are made of a really unique material (unique as in I made it up for the campaign). When it comes in contact with a living being, it starts draining levels. Generally, on a hit, it only drains one level. But picking it up? That's gonna really hurt, really quick. They also recently discovered that it has a tendency to drain magical protections. Starting with Death Ward. The funky skeletons can use this stored energy to fuel their SLA's with. The party has so far not elected to try to obtain any of them.

Crow
2010-10-16, 09:55 PM
If you use the NPC wealth table, you can decently equip the bad guys without breaking the banks of the good guys.

If you're giving PC wealth to the bad guys though, then you're going to run into problems.

Runestar
2010-10-16, 11:51 PM
You may also want to use a powerful melee monster as a base, and limit yourself to no more than 4-5 class lvs. This is because monsters are balanced for their cr with the limited gear in their statblock, so they don't lose much compared to pure-classed npcs, or continue to excel even without.

For example, try adding 5 warblade lvs to an elder elemental (cr16). Now compare its naked stats against a lv16 fighter equipped with gear for its cr. The former still wins in every conceivable way. Now, simply give the elemental a token masterwork weapon to take advantage of iterative attacks, and you are good to go. Maybe huge armour if you can afford it, but that is largely optional, because its 300+ hp more than makes up for its lower AC.

Some classes also don't really need much gear to be effective, such as totemists.

What is your boss statted out as? :smallsmile:

WarKitty
2010-10-16, 11:56 PM
You may also want to use a powerful melee monster as a base, and limit yourself to no more than 4-5 class lvs. This is because monsters are balanced for their cr with the limited gear in their statblock, so they don't lose much compared to pure-classed npcs, or continue to excel even without.

For example, try adding 5 warblade lvs to an elder elemental (cr16). Now compare its naked stats against a lv16 fighter equipped with gear for its cr. The former still wins in every conceivable way. Now, simply give the elemental a token masterwork weapon to take advantage of iterative attacks, and you are good to go. Maybe huge armour if you can afford it, but that is largely optional, because its 300+ hp more than makes up for its lower AC.

Some classes also don't really need much gear to be effective, such as totemists.

What is your boss statted out as? :smallsmile:

There's multiples. I'm not talking about a final boss-boss (campaign doesn't have one), but various crime lords, evil emperors, dark cultists, and whatever other challenging bosses they'll encounter over the months of adventuring.

Crossblade
2010-10-17, 12:05 AM
Aren't you supposed to add something like +2 to the CR for every PC above 4 in the party? So to challenge 8 pcs of level 11, that's...

11 + (2x4)
11 + 8 = 19.

Hrm... that doesn't look right. Maybe if it did have poor weapons though? Those 3 base levels would make up for difference in BAB, and would get 1 more feat.
I suppose +1.5 would get you 16, of course it is - again - going back to standard WBL for NPCs.

Runestar
2010-10-17, 01:32 AM
There's multiples. I'm not talking about a final boss-boss (campaign doesn't have one), but various crime lords, evil emperors, dark cultists, and whatever other challenging bosses they'll encounter over the months of adventuring.

Well, stat-wise, I feel it is still better to use a more powerful as a base, rather than a standard race. Any examples? We can then see if we can optimize them more. :smallsmile:

Gerbah
2010-10-17, 02:00 AM
This is always a tough one, I tend to go the route of:

If the NPC is tough enough to take on the party by himself, he's got some artifacts on him, usually in a way only he can use them without ill effect (or with ill effect, but that's why he's the bad guy). That or he's just naturally tough (higher stats, etc.).

In addition, you can always give the NPC an escape plan! If things look bad, sometimes it's best to run away. An NPC that runs away can leave behind loot still (dropped something, didn't loot the treasure that was there, or simply have the loot be latter on but be based on the NPCs CR), and the PCs still get full XP for "defeating" him. Since a scroll of teleport is pretty reasonable, or heck even that Word of Recall or whatever one, they tend to be somewhat hard to counter, and you can reuse the NPC later.

You can also do something else: Give the NPC reasonable gold value, expecting the party to receive it. But to make him more challenging, have monsters/traps/whatever weaken the party a bit BEFORE they reach the NPC. Random encounters and such are generally expected, and they take resources (HP/Spells) out of the party. If they're less prepared, the fight is going to be tougher.

Those are the tricks I usually use, they work well and are quite justifiable to the party if needs be.

FelixG
2010-10-17, 05:14 AM
Have a figure, robed or some such so they cant see who he is, teleport in, grab the body, then teleport out, when grabbing the body the appropriate amount of treasure and items fell off his person :P

Malbordeus
2010-10-17, 08:07 AM
grafts, or those legend feats that unlock item powers above wha the item normally has. atune the items to the NPC so they dont work easily for anyone else? curse the items, so that if anyone else uses them something gribbly happens?

blackjack217
2010-10-17, 08:21 AM
oh a trick if he is a fighter he somehow rolled all tens during level ups. Its statistically improbable but hey he is really lucky.

WarKitty
2010-10-17, 08:28 AM
oh a trick if he is a fighter he somehow rolled all tens during level ups. Its statistically improbable but hey he is really lucky.

At this level the problem isn't usually getting him enough hit points. The problem is making him not fail the first charm spell the bard throws at him.

blackjack217
2010-10-17, 08:30 AM
At this level the problem isn't usually getting him enough hit points. The problem is making him not fail the first charm spell the bard throws at him.

he got good stats too so his saves are very good. and find a way to give him spell resistance, and an evil cloak of amf that gives - 3 levels too those not of his specific alignment.

WarKitty
2010-10-17, 08:46 AM
he got good stats too so his saves are very good. and find a way to give him spell resistance, and an evil cloak of amf that gives - 3 levels too those not of his specific alignment.

...my party would probably have absolutely no trouble with alignment stuff. It's not like I'm playing with an all-good set. SR is a good point, although at level 15 or so stats are starting to be of less use in saves compared to class progression.

Runestar
2010-10-17, 08:48 AM
oh a trick if he is a fighter he somehow rolled all tens during level ups. Its statistically improbable but hey he is really lucky.

And he will still have too few hp for his cr. The statistical disparity between an npc of crX and the next best monster of that role is simply to great to bridge short of just winging it and say "Screw it! I will just give him +10 to all stats and +100 hp just because!":smallannoyed:

blackjack217
2010-10-17, 08:54 AM
And he will still have too few hp for his cr. The statistical disparity between an npc of crX and the next best monster of that role is simply to great to bridge short of just winging it and say "Screw it! I will just give him +10 to all stats and +100 hp just because!":smallannoyed:

Hey its a way to legally increase his power without giving him more for the PC's to loot instead of rolling 1d10 every time he levels up he assumes he gets a ten. It is not enough in and of itself but it does help.

FelixG
2010-10-17, 08:56 AM
another idea:

Crafted contingency: greater teleport

Activation: When he drops to 0 or lower HP

Have him teleport back to his friends base or wherever he wants his body to go.

Leon
2010-10-17, 08:58 AM
Curse the items.

We recently fought a a family of magic users and went to use the wands they carried and found them to be cursed. only that bloodline could use the said items without harm

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-17, 09:05 AM
Alignment/Race required magical items have reduced price. That's all in your DMG I think.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-17, 09:06 AM
Curse the items.

We recently fought a a family of magic users and went to use the wands they carried and found them to be cursed. only that bloodline could use the said items without harm

Use Magic Device for the win! Seriously, best skill ever.

blackjack217
2010-10-17, 09:10 AM
Or he could have struck a deal with infernal power and they collect by his immolation at the moment of his death. It denies too much loot and serves as a plot hook. Or just give him a feat that gives 5 + level sr and all good saves

Runestar
2010-10-17, 09:32 AM
Alternatively, simply reskin monsters to appear as humans. For example, that levitating ray specialist wizard is actually a refluffed dungeonbred beholder advanced to 15HD (using the monster makeover variant), for instance. :smallsmile:

WarKitty
2010-10-17, 09:33 AM
Use Magic Device for the win! Seriously, best skill ever.

That is one of my houserules actually. UMD is converted to a scaling DC for all items. I don't have the exact scale with me right now, but its a lot harder to use high-level stuff.

Rising Phoenix
2010-10-17, 10:15 AM
Use monsters with the appropriate abilities and natural attacks? Okay that doesn't help.

Keep the pressure on the PCs so that they don't have time to loot? Describe the mooks in such a way that the PCs forget to loot them?

Both tactics have worked for me. But then again my party forgets to loot, often....

R.P.

cenghiz
2010-10-17, 10:22 AM
A single uberchar? If I could understand only one thing well in D&D, it is the fact that actions are valuable. A NPC uberboss's action against 8 PCs? 1 against 8... Why not make four NPCs against eight PCs? Or 16?

If there's the need for one single uberboss for sure, then maybe you can give him other advantages that can't be sold.

He's a rogue/assassin? Poisons.. Let him use a wand of X a few times which wasn't already full, so they can sell the half-charged wand to a giamonk for reduced price. Let him know the PCs will be coming and.. He's a rogue-assassin. A single tripwire and glass shards just in front of it won't cost much but I would make it deal 1d6 and make the PCs who got caught prone for one round. Let him find a narrow hole and let him be a kobold. Two potions of healing are a must and yes, he will drink them (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=304).

Or... give him just the right items they'll in the fight back to the town, not the next fight but the fight after that one? Let them face a pyromaniac while having 6 bottles of fire resistance potion.

Just ideas...

WarKitty
2010-10-17, 10:39 AM
A single uberchar? If I could understand only one thing well in D&D, it is the fact that actions are valuable. A NPC uberboss's action against 8 PCs? 1 against 8... Why not make four NPCs against eight PCs? Or 16?

If there's the need for one single uberboss for sure, then maybe you can give him other advantages that can't be sold.

He's a rogue/assassin? Poisons.. Let him use a wand of X a few times which wasn't already full, so they can sell the half-charged wand to a giamonk for reduced price. Let him know the PCs will be coming and.. He's a rogue-assassin. A single tripwire and glass shards just in front of it won't cost much but I would make it deal 1d6 and make the PCs who got caught prone for one round. Let him find a narrow hole and let him be a kobold. Two potions of healing are a must and yes, he will drink them (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=304).

Or... give him just the right items they'll in the fight back to the town, not the next fight but the fight after that one? Let them face a pyromaniac while having 6 bottles of fire resistance potion.

Just ideas...

I do use minions. My one issue is, well, 8 characters + 8 enemies with our group usually equals no one has any idea what the heck is going on.

silvadel
2010-10-17, 10:45 AM
Lime Green boots of speed. Nobody wants them because they look awful.

Give it -2 to charisma if you happen to wear them yourself.

---

If you want something as a permanent feature of a game -- why are magic items eternal? I mean everything else spoils over time. Plus shouldn't it be easier to enchant a sword in a manner that it lasts 25 years rather than eons?

One way to handle such is to have all stored wands lose one charge every month if they have more than 10 charges and 1 charge per year if fewer.

The creation of a sword/armor that is stable for 1 year would be at 50% of the cost stated in the books. For 5 years as stated. For 25 years +50%. For 250 years +100%. Truly eternal tends to pick up a sentience of its own over time and would be +300%.

Each time that increment is passed the item rolls d20. 17-20 it stays the same. 10-16 it loses 1 plus. 4-9 it becomes unstable. 1-3 it becomes non-magical.

Unstable items tend to fail every once in a while and can flare out if performing a major function on a 1-3 becoming non-magical -- Causing damage random effects also if a 1.

Unstable Items // ones with lost plusses can be magically repaired with a 80% chance of successfully resetting the item for 40% of the cost required to make the item in the first place.

If you go with a system like the above then items you get off monsters are very likely to be a significant portion into their lifespan when acquired as well.

B1okHead
2010-10-17, 12:00 PM
What I usually do is figure out the total value of the treasure that the PCs are supposed to get for the whole dungeon (or whatever else) and then take all the loot out of the that.

WarKitty
2010-10-17, 01:20 PM
What I usually do is figure out the total value of the treasure that the PCs are supposed to get for the whole dungeon (or whatever else) and then take all the loot out of the that.

Sandbox world, so no go. I keep a fairly tight rein in general on the availability of high-level magic items. They have a crafter in the party, so he can make most things they really want, plus I don't always let them sell high-level stuff easily (has to do with world design, it's a post-apocolyptic setting and there is no magicmart around the corner).

Hmm that might actually answer part of the problem. There's only so many slots no matter what you do, and there's no reason they would be allowed to sell these items.

VirOath
2010-10-17, 01:48 PM
Just giving the player's perspective of things for this, but don't just have items given be wiped out completely. Using potions and buffs isn't that bad, but everything being spelled so it vanishes when they are killed is a pet peeve of mine.

And I am speaking from experience. Had a DM that constantly threw out enemies with high powered magic items at us, but didn't want us to have anything remotely the same so it just all vanished on their deaths, or a mentally activated command triggered a self destruct, or the NPCs wouldn't follow the party and use high damage supernovas to finish the target off once we were getting close to knocking him out.

Putting high magic on a character then wiping that magic out, and doing it repeatedly is just taunting the PCs. Making the items pure evil or things that would be destroyed, or sold even is much better.


I do use minions. My one issue is, well, 8 characters + 8 enemies with our group usually equals no one has any idea what the heck is going on.

An easy solution is fighting groups. So instead of 8 enemies, stat them up as swarm types, but without the swarms. They get X number of attacks, can do X so many times a round or combat, and even share HP. It limits the effectiveness of single target I WIN spells too, as it would only disable part of the group at random. And they would move about and take blows for the others.

The reason this works so well is that it is creating single enemies or minions that are more resistant to single target spells, break the standard notions of action economy to make them more dangerous and level the field, as well as giving plenty of flavor and tactics to the combat. Area spells would do it's damage to all parts, so getting multiplied.

Fighters can have trained rank and file soldiers, honed to perfection as a fighting machine. Wizards can have hiveminded dominated subjects, literally one mind for each group. The Bard can have choreographed dancers stepping and weaving in elegance.

For sizing, use squeezing rules. That is, 2 Med creatures take up the space of one, but at no penalty due to training or nature. So a single group of 8 fighters would take up the same space as a large.

WarKitty
2010-10-17, 02:07 PM
Just giving the player's perspective of things for this, but don't just have items given be wiped out completely. Using potions and buffs isn't that bad, but everything being spelled so it vanishes when they are killed is a pet peeve of mine.

And I am speaking from experience. Had a DM that constantly threw out enemies with high powered magic items at us, but didn't want us to have anything remotely the same so it just all vanished on their deaths, or a mentally activated command triggered a self destruct, or the NPCs wouldn't follow the party and use high damage supernovas to finish the target off once we were getting close to knocking him out.

Putting high magic on a character then wiping that magic out, and doing it repeatedly is just taunting the PCs. Making the items pure evil or things that would be destroyed, or sold even is much better.

:smallyuk: Hence part of the issue. I do recognize that "sorry he dematerializes as you approach" is frankly going to annoy any decent group of players unless used very carefully. At the same time I don't want to load them with treasure, as they tend to face a lot of high-level encounters (world design tends to make it fairly easy for them to rest when they want, so I compensate by making most encounters difficult.)

The only problem with pure evil items is half my party would just grab the item anyways and change their alignment if it looked cool enough.

VirOath
2010-10-17, 02:08 PM
Good, glad to see that, but read the edit in the above post. Wasn't expecting a reply so quickly.

WarKitty
2010-10-17, 02:09 PM
Good, glad to see that, but read the edit in the above post. Wasn't expecting a reply so quickly.

I'm procrastinating. This forum is vastly more interesting than studying for my test.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-17, 02:12 PM
Same here: I should be studying for Animal Behavor test or Greek quiz, but no, I'm goofing off.

Would your party really becdome evil to use the new loot? :smalltongue:

WarKitty
2010-10-17, 02:34 PM
Same here: I should be studying for Animal Behavor test or Greek quiz, but no, I'm goofing off.

Would your party really becdome evil to use the new loot? :smalltongue:

This is the same party where a pair of them thought it was funny to hand a piece of paper with explosive runes on it to a 6 year old beggar girl. They're already halfway there.

Skorj
2010-10-17, 03:14 PM
:smallyuk: Hence part of the issue. I do recognize that "sorry he dematerializes as you approach" is frankly going to annoy any decent group of players unless used very carefully. At the same time I don't want to load them with treasure, as they tend to face a lot of high-level encounters (world design tends to make it fairly easy for them to rest when they want, so I compensate by making most encounters difficult.)

The only problem with pure evil items is half my party would just grab the item anyways and change their alignment if it looked cool enough.

This I think is the real problem. You want to give the PCs cool stuff when they kill a big-bad, even in a sandbox world. In fact, if you're being careful about availability of high-level items, that should be the primary way PCs get access to them. It's great when each piece of high-level PC gear has a story behind it!

So I'd suggest first working out a menu of high-level gear - genuinely good stuff the players will treasure - that works in your campaign even if the PCs get all of it, and assuming that this is how the PCs get their limited selection of high-level gear. Choose the right amount of this to not break WBL and to fit your campaign. Then, for the other stuff the NPCs need to survive, you can get cheesy with tattoos, location-specific items, intelligent evil items, etc. Or just use a larger amount of lower-level gear where that helps. (For stats of course the NPCs have eaten whatever tomes instead of using gear.)

If the party kills a Boss, and all of his stuff disappears or is useless, they're going to feel cheated. But if they kill him and get 1-2 really cool magic items that they've seen him using, but his secondary gear dissappears or is useless, they shouldn't be disappointed.

Ashiel
2010-10-17, 08:57 PM
I typically play Pathfinder exclusively these days, but I would note a few major things that I've seen that work in both 3.5 and Pathfinder making strong NPCs with usual NPC gear.

As others have mentioned, potions, scrolls, and so forth are excellent for giving a quick boost (especially pre-combat). The 250 gp potions of enlarge person are CL 5 which lets them last almost 5 minutes (much longer than a typical fight). Spells like magic weapon, magic vestment, and their greater versions are excellent.

Likewise wands and staffs are exceptionally useful since you can calculate them in charges. A CL 20 wand of greater magic weapon has a 900 gp / charge price-tag, and lasts 1 hours per charge. That's a fairly effective method for getting a +5 weapon for while without actually spending 100,000 gp.

Likewise, if you're looking for some cheap offense, the wand thing works well when combined with spells like lightning bolt. A CL 10 lightning bolt wand is 450 gp per charge, so slapping a couple with 1-2 charges in a group of adepts can be heinously vicious.

Consumables are good for NPCs.

Merk
2010-10-17, 09:02 PM
I tend to just give my NPCs level appropriate "gear" and abilities, and fluff it as if they are essentially mundane. Sure, statistically, that swordsage has a +2 keen bastard sword that deals a negative level on a crit, and has a 20% miss chance from a cloak, boots of speed, +1 insight to AC, etc. etc. ... but as far as the PCs are concerned, he's a ninja, and those are just innate properties of being a ninja.

Crossblade
2010-10-17, 09:10 PM
Give him magic items... but EVERY item is also enchanged/cursed with Change Gender.
They take 1 item off him, he's a she. They take the next time, she's a he...
Make sure there's not enough equipment to go around to everyone. Good luck finding ANYONE wanting to buy all/any of those.

Calimehter
2010-10-17, 10:33 PM
There's a bit in the DMG II about 'Bonded' magic items, where magic items (or at least, their highest functions) only function for the single individual who bonded with that item through a particular ritual. Using those rules, you could equip NPCs with items that function specifically for them.

What's nice about this option (as opposed to the alignment or race-specific solutions mentioned earlier in the thread) is that UMD (barring some FAQ or errata I haven't read) doesn't allow for emulation of a specific individual and thus does not work on bonded items.

Godskook
2010-10-17, 11:08 PM
What's nice about this option (as opposed to the alignment or race-specific solutions mentioned earlier in the thread) is that UMD (barring some FAQ or errata I haven't read) doesn't allow for emulation of a specific individual and thus does not work on bonded items.

That's poor DM meta-gaming though, since saying "UMD was written before this magic item option, and therefore can't emulate it" is dumb.

Leon
2010-10-18, 05:21 AM
Use Magic Device for the win! Seriously, best skill ever.

Pretty hard to use a magic device that is causing your all maner of nasty effects from just holding it let along trying to use it.

Calimehter
2010-10-18, 07:23 PM
That's poor DM meta-gaming though, since saying "UMD was written before this magic item option, and therefore can't emulate it" is dumb.

I can see your point.

However, another way to look at it might be to say that using UMD to emulate a specific single individual is much harder than using UMD in a more typical fashion to emulate things like class, race,and alignment . . . things that are shared by thousands (millions?) of individuals in a typical campaign world. Items with such (relatively) 'open' such restrictions as race/class/alignment can easily be imagined to be more accessable via UMD than a bonded item would be.

I think I'd be giving the designers more credit than I should to say that they deliberately left out UMD access for that very reason :smallwink: but the fact remains that it is a reasonable justification for going RAW IMO if a particular game group decided they didn't want to homebrew some UMD access rules for bonded items.

kestrel404
2010-10-18, 07:30 PM
Persisted buffs cast by an enemy mage. Instead of giving them magic items, put spells on them. There isn't a single magic item in the game whose effect hasn't been superceded by a spell effect now.

Want to give the warrior a +5 sword? Have him polymorphed into a mountain troll instead, and using a normal sword. A keen sword? Keen spell. A flaming sword? Flame weapon (or whatever).

Almost every good piece of gear can be replicated by a 5th level or lower spell. This is part of what makes wizard and clerics tier 1 classes.

WarKitty
2010-10-18, 07:52 PM
I can see your point.

However, another way to look at it might be to say that using UMD to emulate a specific single individual is much harder than using UMD in a more typical fashion to emulate things like class, race,and alignment . . . things that are shared by thousands (millions?) of individuals in a typical campaign world. Items with such (relatively) 'open' such restrictions as race/class/alignment can easily be imagined to be more accessable via UMD than a bonded item would be.

I think I'd be giving the designers more credit than I should to say that they deliberately left out UMD access for that very reason :smallwink: but the fact remains that it is a reasonable justification for going RAW IMO if a particular game group decided they didn't want to homebrew some UMD access rules for bonded items.

:smalltongue: UMD is houseruled in my campaign anyways. I don't have a section for bonded items, but it wouldn't be hard to work in. Basically everything's a scaling DC with plusses and minuses for things like alignment and race.

flabort
2010-10-18, 08:09 PM
Are there nearby convenient cliffs/holes/chasms/pits?

Fit the NPC out with Awesome +8 equipment, or whatever. Just, the works. Everything an adventurer could ask for. (Even better, if player X has been asking for something specific, give it to the NPC).

When the players kill said NPC, before they can reach him, he falls down the nearby cliff/hole/chasm/pit, right down, down, down, into an extra convenient orb of annihilation.:smallbiggrin::smallamused:

Runestar
2010-10-18, 08:12 PM
Persisted buffs cast by an enemy mage. Instead of giving them magic items, put spells on them. There isn't a single magic item in the game whose effect hasn't been superceded by a spell effect now.

Want to give the warrior a +5 sword? Have him polymorphed into a mountain troll instead, and using a normal sword. A keen sword? Keen spell. A flaming sword? Flame weapon (or whatever).

I feel this is effective if used sparingly, but becomes a nuisance if it appears to commonly.

What - so every villain has the services of a lv20 wizard whose sole purpose is to buff everyone with chained greater magic weapon and superior resistance? :smallconfused:

EagleWiz
2010-10-18, 09:04 PM
In the campaign I'm currently running, the BBEG Necromancer has these really wierd skeletal things with SLA's that are powered through draining life essence. The weapons they wield are made of a really unique material (unique as in I made it up for the campaign). When it comes in contact with a living being, it starts draining levels. Generally, on a hit, it only drains one level. But picking it up? That's gonna really hurt, really quick. They also recently discovered that it has a tendency to drain magical protections. Starting with Death Ward. The funky skeletons can use this stored energy to fuel their SLA's with. The party has so far not elected to try to obtain any of them.

I am surprised that your party has not yet tried creating undead minnions, or turning undead themselves, or getting a construct to wield the swords.