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View Full Version : Help me out of a hole I've dug myself into



valadil
2010-10-16, 11:05 PM
First off, my players should stay out.

Okay, so I've written myself into a bit of a corner. I'll try to keep this as brief as I can but you may still be facing a CR 15 Wall of Text.

Here's the deal. The PCs helped convince the nation of Vesperin to go to war with Netheril. Several sessions ago, some battle plans and troop movements were stolen and sold to an Underdark merchant. The players tracked and secured the plans, exiting the Underdark near Netheril. The doppelganger PC disguised himself as a Shadovar and cooked up a cover story about being Sembian mercenaries.

Naturally they met up with a unit from the Netherese army. The cover story held and the players agreed to come back to their camp for the night. To avoid suspicion, they participated in ritual worship of Shar (evil deity of darkness) which eventually included self mutilation. The soldiers here complained that they'd been moving north but the forest was somehow haunted and they kept getting lost. More on that later.

So that night a pack of unicorns attacked the encampment. The PCs were reluctant to fight them, but felt they had to keep up their cover story. Only the shaman managed to avoid hurting a unicorn at all. The bard/rogue killed a unicorn (but regretted it (he didn't realize it was badly wounded)) and the swordmage took its horn. Then the players decided the fight was big enough that they wouldn't be missed, they fled into the forest. That's where we left off.

Now let me back up a bit. When the players came out of the Underdark I put them at the base of the Desertmouth Mountains (no, you don't need to follow along on a map. I just figured someone would ask). I wanted them near Netheril (as that's where they assumed the troop movements were being taken, so that was their destination while they were underground) but close to Sembia as well so they could get back to the plot. The Netherese soldiers confirmed their location. When I knew where they were going to be I did some research. The nearest town was a place called "Shadowdale." According to the Forgotten Realms page on Wikia, Shadowdale is the home of a certain Elminster. (As a sidenote, my first inclination was to ignore this and say he was adventuring on the other side of the world. I don't usually invoke campaign setting NPCs because I don't see them as my property to use. However I'm trying to break old habits and try new things, so I figured I'd go with it.) He's weaker in 4th ed (as Mystra is dead) but still pretty epic. When he casts spells he goes insane and only Storm Silverhand can cure him of the insanity.

I figured that Elminster would not tolerate an army of Necromancers marching through his backyard. It seemed reasonable that he'd be opposed to this enough to risk insanity. So he lowered the barrier between the material plane and the feywild, then went nuts. This is the haunted forest the soldiers described. A pretty large portion of the Netherese army is confounded by the planar disruption going on here. This is also the source of the unicorns attacking.

But this is where I'm having trouble. I expect the players to come across Elminster. Even if they avoid the woods, the soldiers on their side who are nearby are actively looking for Elminster to petition him for help. The bottom line is that Elminster is no longer avoidable. And he's gonna be pissed at the PCs for killing his unicorns.

What I'm thinking at the moment is that due to his insanity he's declared himself the Lord of the Forest, or some such. The explanation is that Mystra is slain and as returned to the Earth, so the only way to channel her is through earthly magic. Thus he's learning to be a druid. Or something like that, I'm still working out the details. At any rate he's going to put the players on trial.

(And for some more backstory, I'm at a point where I feel I have to make the PCs question their morality. They've been a lot more evil than adventurers can usually get away with. The whole reason I had the unicorns attack was to make it pretty obvious that these good, innocent creatures regard some of the PCs in the same light as necromancers. The characters definitely got that message. Furthermore, one of the PCs (the one who killed the unicorn actually) has told me straight up that he wants to see the group's morality called into question. He actually said that if they aren't held accountable for what happened there, he'd like to switch characters. The selling point on his character was that he started the game without an alignment and wanted the party to show him humanity. That hasn't happened and he feels like his character is on the verge of becoming an NPC. I happen to agree with him. This is why I feel the need to confront the players in this way.)

So yeah. I'm not sure what to do with the trial. I don't see a group of level 8s fooling Elminster. And I don't see him doing anything but calling them guilty. Even if they thought they were doing good by maintaining their cover in the evil army, the players ultimately fought against the good unicorns. They killed the guardians who would have kept the Netherese at bay (after the PCs left, the Netherese won btw. I'm also debating having them zombify the dead unicorns if only so I can make a terrible "eunuch horn" pun to refer to the one who had its horn poached). Maybe the bard/rogue acted out of fear, but the swordmage had no reservations about what he did, and did it entirely out of greed and self interest. I don't see how Elminster can forgive him.

tl;dr A couple players did something naughty. I want them to pay for their sins. But I don't want to kill them verbally. How do I make the PCs question their morality in character in these circumstances without killing them or look like I'm letting them off too easily?
--

And that's where I'm stuck. If I pull my punch I won't really have confronted the PCs' morality. If I throw the punch, I don't see how that player can remain in the party. I figure Elminster would have him executed, or at the very least jailed. I don't want to remove a PC from the party in boxed text. That's a job for dice. OTOH, it was a player choice that condemned him rather than a bad roll. Maybe I should assume the players will be more creative than me when it comes to finding a way to weasel out of it? I'm hoping the playground has another option.

blackjack217
2010-10-16, 11:11 PM
send them on a suicide mission to redeem themselves. its a classic

valadil
2010-10-16, 11:14 PM
send them on a suicide mission to redeem themselves. its a classic

That was my first thought. I don't like it because it feels too convenient. It's like, you screwed up really badly so I'll berate you for it but here's a free pass to get out of it. That's not going to make them think about their characters' morality at all. It's going to make them think they can get away with anything.

blackjack217
2010-10-16, 11:15 PM
That was my first thought. I don't like it because it feels too convenient. It's like, you screwed up really badly so I'll berate you for it but here's a free pass to get out of it. That's not going to make them think about their characters' morality at all. It's going to make them think they can get away with anything.

I said suicide, not level appropriate encounter.

Valameer
2010-10-16, 11:18 PM
Ok - Elminster is insane, which makes this awesome.

The trial could go any which way, and the verdict could be bizarre. Not too bizarre, you don't want to undermine the gravity of the situation that the players seem to be enjoying.

Perhaps, if the one player thinking of retiring his character seems ok with it, Elminster could demand blood for blood. One life for a life lost. The character would be given the opporunity to "take one for the team," and then have Elminster polymorph the guy into a unicorn. Now he's an npc, and his character has a sort of resolution.

Elsewise, you could come up with any sort of zany quest for the group to go on as penance. One thing you should definitely throw in, though, is Elminster putting the crimes charged against the party to them, hearing their pleas, then loudly proclaiming "Verdict: INNOCENT" before dispensing justice and sentences onto them. Kinda a Transformers reference. :smallsmile:

valadil
2010-10-16, 11:24 PM
Perhaps, if the one player thinking of retiring his character seems ok with it, Elminster could demand blood for blood. One life for a life lost. The character would be given the opporunity to "take one for the team," and then have Elminster polymorph the guy into a unicorn. Now he's an npc, and his character has a sort of resolution.

Interesting. While that player is okay with his character being swapped out, I'm not sure the character would give himself up. Having Elminster seemingly randomly pick would definitely work. The problem is that the events involved in the trial might give the player interest in the PC again, and I'd hate to take away the character at that point. Under consideration though.

Reluctance
2010-10-16, 11:41 PM
#1: The party did bad things in the name of the greater good. At least I hope they did. Bad things in the name of personal aggrandizement tend to be self-reinforcing, though.

#2: Elminster is mad. But, in his own way, just. He'll give the PC's a chance to redeem themselves before dropping the axe.

#3: The feywild connection you're playing up? It's the place of story logic and fairy tales. What would the Brothers Grimm do?

Give the PC's a surreal encounter or two to give conceptual space, then have a noncombat encounter where weird fae creatures, in addition to other nonsensical riddles, drop hints like "the forest king is watching you" and "judgment is due". Hint that morality tests are coming up, without being quite so anvilicious about it. Then sprinkle in morality tests amongst the next session or two. Give them captives to interrogate, tempting treasures to steal, and other morality tests that PCs regularly fail when they don't think their morality is being tested.

If the PCs get the hint and don't act like total tools, they can get off with a warning and a minor quest levied against them. If they regularly take the bait, you can unleash whatever pain you like against them. This can involve trial by combat against an overpowering force, the sacrifice of a PC (this can give the bard/rogue an out), or cleansing holy fire if you feel the need for time out and a reboot.

valadil
2010-10-17, 12:14 AM
#1: The party did bad things in the name of the greater good. At least I hope they did. Bad things in the name of personal aggrandizement tend to be self-reinforcing, though.

The party has been doing bad in the name of good for the entire campaign. They don't know where to draw the line anymore and their judgment is suspect.

The PC who took the horn did so entirely out of greed. He's a power hungry opportunist. I don't think it occurred to him (in character) that attacking unicorns was bad. The others are trying to justify what they did, but he has no remorse for it.

I think Elminster will see this. This is the character I'm having trouble with Elminster forgiving.


#3: The feywild connection you're playing up? It's the place of story logic and fairy tales. What would the Brothers Grimm do?

Give the PC's a surreal encounter or two to give conceptual space, then have a noncombat encounter where weird fae creatures, in addition to other nonsensical riddles, drop hints like "the forest king is watching you" and "judgment is due".

In theory I agree with this idea a whole lot. In practice I'm terrible at writing that kind of thing. Do you know of any specific fairy tales I could model? Given that I have less than a week left to prep, I don't have a lot of time to research the matter.

One other factor that I failed to mention in the original wall o' text: I don't want to spend too long on judicial sidequests. Meeting Elminster is fine. He's relevant and interesting. Paying for their sins by visiting three Netherese encampments to free the captured McGufficorns is too much. I'm trying to get back to the main plot by bringing the PCs back to the people leading the war effort. That's been the favorite section of the game so far and the players just got back from a lengthy diversion that didn't go over so well. I want to get them back to the plot they liked without spending too many sessions on this sort of obstacle.

I just had another idea though and I can't decide if it's good or awful. In the interest of increased narrative control for the players, what if I let them direct their own redemption sidequest? Tell them Elminster is giving each of them three days to make up for what they've done on their own. I'd let them come up with their own story of how they do good, outside of game time. Players could write something up like their backstories or I could even do this verbally. I just like the idea of having Elminster put the burden of figuring out how to redeem themselves on them. It's much more interesting than him just happening to know which cave has a hidden cache of undead slaying weapons that could benefit the war effort.

Mewtarthio
2010-10-17, 12:26 AM
Sounds good, but I think the swordsage should still suffer a bit (and it sounds like the player wants the character punished, too). Have Elly give them the "choose your own redemption" quest, but also throw some sort of curse on the swordsage as well. Something that manages to be painful while not rendering him mechanically useless (like say nightmares). If Elminster finds him worthy of redemption when he gives his final verdict, the curse gets lifted.

Oh, and obviously you should confiscate the unicorn horn. That really should go without saying.

PopcornMage
2010-10-17, 01:21 AM
Here's the thing about using Elminster...at his best, he is the clever type, never does anything without knowing the outcome will be what he wants. But he'll be very subtle about it, using disguises and obfuscation rather than open force.

You should look to use some headology (ala Granny Weatherwax) instead of coercion.

Perhaps you could have somebody (Elminster in disguise, or an agent) offer the PC's a way out, but it would turn out to be putting them in a place they didn't want to be, like working for some really bad guys out to do some even more unpleasant stuff.

Your instincts to avoid the Cave of Plot Coupons is a good one though. A journey of self-discovery would be much better. Mercedes Lackey's The Fairy Godmother might have some ideas for you, but they'd probably take too much time to work.

Also if you're particularly mean, you can confiscate his human horn too.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-17, 01:46 AM
Also if you're particularly mean, you can confiscate his human horn too.

:eek::eek::eek:

huttj509
2010-10-17, 07:02 AM
When Elminster says "Got yer nose!" That's not his thumb there between his fingers.

Actually, depending on the type of insanity, I could see that working. For the PC who took the unicorn horn out of greed, even if they have a chance at redemption Elminster takes his nose, giving him a prominent marking that "something's not right with this guy" which would affect social situations. Or grafts the unicorn horn to the PC's forhead, having a similar effect.

valadil
2010-10-17, 11:15 AM
Oh, and obviously you should confiscate the unicorn horn. That really should go without saying.

I was actually thinking the opposite. Like, if the swordmage tries to bail out by giving up the horn, Elminster wouldn't take it because he wouldn't want something like that.


Or grafts the unicorn horn to the PC's forhead, having a similar effect.

That's actually kinda awesome. I like the idea of a permanent public shaming so that others will learn from what he did. I was briefly considering ripping off Snow Crash and branding POOR IMPULSE CONTROL on his forehead, but this is 10 times better.

Escheton
2010-10-17, 01:37 PM
Elminster has a whole lotta balls up in the air at any given time. He keeps track of so many people, plots and storylines, which he all suptly manipulates and steers. In part because he does not have the power to act directly on so many levels and locations.
Now add raw power surging through this man. The ability to get so much done so much faster.
Now imagine having to do the math on everything you could effect while channeling this arcane force.
It's not that he's mad, it's just that noone short of Storm can understand him or bring him back to the state of mind that does all this on the inside and projects a calm knowing.

Anyways, this guy sweats sidequests. Don't be afraid of convention. It works, in the right contexts.

GeminiVeil
2010-10-17, 01:40 PM
+1 to morality tests. Read something in a book a while back that may help.

Have a giant that is wounded in their path. Have it in a pronounced wild magic area, so any fresh spells cast have a chance of running wild. (seems to fit with the Elminister angle anyway) He is bound so that he may not help himself in any way. He has a salve on him which will stop the bleeding, a sword to cut the ropes, and knows where a key is to unlock his manacles. He asks them to name a reward each time they try to help him, and if they ever accept, then whatever magic they were using stops working. The salve won't staunch the blood, the sword won't cut the rope, and the key won't fit the lock. Giant has just been put their by Elminister to see if the Unicorn thing was a fluke or if they are really worth redeeming.

chiasaur11
2010-10-17, 02:15 PM
That was my first thought. I don't like it because it feels too convenient. It's like, you screwed up really badly so I'll berate you for it but here's a free pass to get out of it. That's not going to make them think about their characters' morality at all. It's going to make them think they can get away with anything.

Ah, but suicide missions ain't free passes. Never have been.

Ever read Suicide Squad? Seen "The Dirty Dozen"?

Suicide missions are a classic method of redeeming lowlifes. Probably should give them an observer, though. Wouldn't do for the party to be able to bolt.

VirOath
2010-10-17, 02:35 PM
Actually, something that you can't overlook, yet I think many here have. They willingly prayed to an evil god and performed all of the rituals, including self sacrifice.

This is very, very important as regardless of what their intentions were, it's boarder line true worship no matter how they color or rationalize it. They were under the guise of mercenaries, swords for hire. They were claiming to be in it for the money, mercs wouldn't care about the aftermath, about the gods or any such rituals that the nation would follow.

Morality tests are a good thing. Punishment being flavorful rather than mechanical or plot hooks is even better. Have their dreams force upon them the misery that they have caused, a weight on their shoulders that doesn't seem to relent. Have a mark that is unseen by the players, or anyone evil or even neutral, warn those around them and place the PCs in the cradle of being considered the criminals of the good of the world, having to wrok from the bottom to redeem themselves.

Have the silverhand starting to take an interest, as they brought the big E to insanity once again.

There is plenty of fallout that can happen that makes things harder for the PCs, but not in combat, and doesn't detract from the main story.

blackjack217
2010-10-17, 03:16 PM
Ah, but suicide missions ain't free passes. Never have been.

Ever read Suicide Squad? Seen "The Dirty Dozen"?

Suicide missions are a classic method of redeeming lowlifes. Probably should give them an observer, though. Wouldn't do for the party to be able to bolt.
And seriously When I said suicide I mean suicide.