(4th Ed) Party optimization help

[DragonOfUndeath]

my friend is running a 4th ed D&D campaign at level2 with me and 3 others. the others are pretty new to D&D and aren't very good at optimization and me and the DM are having trouble scaling back the encounters and my character to roughly the same level so everyone has elected me to optimize their characters like my rogue. we have an elven ranger using a bow, a wizard (his character is all over the place and has no backstory), my half-elf rogue and a half-elf paladin. the DM only has the PhB and DMG to work.

PALADIN: RACE: Half-Elf, Dragonborn and Dwarf (i have to make a character sheet for each one)
RANGE: Melee
WEAPON: Warhammer
WANTS TO BE: Healing Fighter (casts heal spells and knock out enemies in melee)

RANGER: RACE: Elf
RANGE: Long-distance
WEAPON: Bow
WANTS TO BE: Master Archer (how many bonuses can you stack onto bows?)

WIZARD: RACE: Human
RANGE: any
WEAPON: any
WANTS TO BE: Warmage (a melee character with casting)

ill post my rogues stats when i get them tomorrow (DM has all the character sheets and books).

HOUSERULES: if i can come up with a balanced power i can add it in
can attack as a minor action for -2 on the To Hit roll (cant use Standard Action powers just a normal attack)
63 point buy (i.e 10 STR costs 10 points) EDIT: he let me use the 4D6b3 rolls

i cant do all this before the next session so im turning to you Playgrounders.

[HMS Invincible]

Your houserules make me wanna cry.
Ranger: Combine twin strike with other powers that trigger on other people's turns. That way, you can attack, and then respond to opponents, which grants you more attacks. In addition, stack up items and feats that give you bonus damage. You won't add your dex to damage, but you get to add everything else twice. It more than makes up for it.

[Mando Knight]

...If the group is new or new-ish, then you shouldn't have such major houserules. Seriously.

1.) A -2 penalty to attack is nothing compared to the ability to attack again with an action that might otherwise be unused.
2.) Not adding Dex to AC breaks any Dex-based class on its knee and throws it in the dumpster.
3.) Your point-buy rules are terrible if I'm reading you right. If one of the best stat arrays you can get is 16/12/8/8/8/8, then something is wrong.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

...If the group is new or new-ish, then you shouldn't have such major houserules. Seriously.

1.) A -2 penalty to attack is nothing compared to the ability to attack again with an action that might otherwise be unused.With this, I agree.

2.) Not adding Dex to AC breaks any Dex-based class on its knee and throws it in the dumpster.With this I would agree, except that ranged rangers with quick draw can attack four times on their turn using a standard and a minor, at will, and they don't care as much about AC. Rogues (more likely to have shuriken-related bonuses) can get three attacks.

3.) Your point-buy rules are terrible if I'm reading you right. If one of the best stat arrays you can get is 16/12/8/8/8/8, then something is wrong.The best point buy line probably dumps three stats far below 8, but it's still going to have a wonky feel.

[WitchSlayer]

Ranger? Not hard to optimize, melee spellcaster? Swordmage, possibly Warlock. Healing Fighter is obviously paladin. You guys are lacking a strong leader though.

[DragonOfUndeath]

If the group is new or new-ish, then you shouldn't have such major houserules. Seriously.

the DM has played a few games of 4 and 3.5 and ive played a few sessions of them as well but other than that no experience ever. i tried to tell him not to but he wouldnt listen. he said something about 'if i do this now they others wont have to adjust later when i add it in'.


1.) A -2 penalty to attack is nothing compared to the ability to attack again with an action that might otherwise be unused.

actually all of us (except the wizard) have goodish minor actions but i agree with you there.


3. Your point-buy rules are terrible if I'm reading you right. If one of the best stat arrays you can get is 16/12/8/8/8/8, then something is wrong.

63 points not 60 so its 16/12/9/9/9/8 before racial modifiers and its the DMs rules not mine. i think my stats are: STR 6, CON 10, DEX 14, CHA 14, WIS 10 and INT 9 before racial mods.


Ranger? Not hard to optimize.

The Ranger is the best excluding me.


melee spellcaster? Swordmage, possibly Warlock.

we dont have access anything but PhB and DMG and the DM has the only copies. is the Swordmage or Warlock in either of them?


Healing Fighter is obviously paladin.

The Healing Fighter IS the paladin (its why he is playing one).


You guys are lacking a strong leader though.

we might be getting another player who would probably play as a leader.

[WitchSlayer]

I think the problems are the house rules, to be frank.

Edit: Warlock IS in the PHB, although I don't think the good melee style warlock powers are in the PHB, also not in the PHB, and more of a healer than a caster, but Runepriest is a crazy awesome melee style healer with some cool rune powers. But Runepriests are definitely not in the main core.

[PopcornMage]

Warlock is from the Players Handbook and Swordmage is from the Forgotten Realms Players Guide, so I guess it is out, though I would say it probably best fits the desired concepts of a melee caster. But perhaps the player might enjoy a Warlord depending on what they want from the game?

I agree with the folks saying that the house rules changes are asking for trouble though.

[DragonOfUndeath]

ill talk to him tomorrow and see if i can change his mind. what would be a good way to get ability scores without actually rolling them? because the DM might think i fudged the rolls if i get really good scores.

[WitchSlayer]

ill talk to him tomorrow and see if i can change his mind. what would be a good way to get ability scores without actually rolling them? because the DM might think i fudged the rolls if i get really good scores.

Normal pointbuy? 5 10s and 1 8, 22 points to distribute in the normal pointbuy fashion. That's what they use in the character builder, which you might wanna get a demo of just to give it a look over.

[DragonOfUndeath]

can i get a link?

[PopcornMage]

4th edition character builder (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Tool.aspx?x=dnd/4new/tool/characterbuilder)

It only goes up to 3rd level for the demo, but that should be satisfactory for your immediate needs.

[Kurald Galain]

I completely agree with the posters above who state that these houserules are ill-considered.

I'm curious what the purpose of them is, anyway. Almost every melee class has access to several multi-attack powers or extra attacks; this is better than letting the ranger get five attacks each turn using twin strike and a shuriken.

The point buy lends itself to ridiculous abuse, because pretty much every 4E class can safely drop two or three of his attributes to zero without any effect. So with your point buy, I could e.g. go Con 18, Int 18, Cha 18; then Str 1, Dex 7, Wis 1; and end up with a highly effective warlock.

Other than that: Dragonborn Paladin is a good combination, and Elf Archer is one of the most damaging classes in the game. However, wizards don't do melee (and human is not such a great race for wizards, anyway). If you want a melee character with casting, either pick swordmage or warlock with eldritch strike.

[DragonOfUndeath]

i should clarify the shurikan house rule a bit: i had my Rogue tailor-fit some leather armour's sleeve (the right hand sleeve) to basically drop a shurikan into my hand when i wanted to so i could basically do a bowling action and send a shurikan into a nearby enemy. the DM ruled it cost about 20GP to get a clothe-maker to do this and i couldn't use it when threatened by an enemy or holding a weapon in my right-hand. so the Ranger cant unless he pays the 20GP which he doesn't want too and he couldn't use it with the bow in the same round. the shurikan also loses 1 damage.

[Thajocoth]

My only advice is to drop those houserules.

The extra attacks will make combat take longer.

The removal of Dex to AC unbalances the game and annihilates a large number of classes. (Most things in light armor)

That point buy system allows you to have 3 20s and 3 1s. If your 20s are (Str or Con), Int and (Wis or Cha), and your 1s are the other 3, then you now have absolutely amazing defenses, attack, damage and class feature effects. And that's before the racial bonuses... The other 3 stats do not really matter for anything... One of those 3 stats only matters for a defense. 4e's system REALLY assumes that you have at most one score below 10, nothing below 8, and nothing above 18 before racial mods. Look at the point buy system that the PHB suggests. It scales based on how high you go... So an 11 costs 1 point over a 10, but an 18 costs more than 8 points.


i should clarify the shurikan house rule a bit: i had my Rogue tailor-fit some leather armour's sleeve (the right hand sleeve) to basically drop a shurikan into my hand when i wanted to so i could basically do a bowling action and send a shurikan into a nearby enemy. the DM ruled it cost about 20GP to get a clothe-maker to do this and i couldn't use it when threatened by an enemy or holding a weapon in my right-hand. so the Ranger cant unless he pays the 20GP which he doesn't want too and he couldn't use it with the bow in the same round. the shurikan also loses 1 damage.

It should be an Item Daily. It should not be At-Will. As an Item Daily, this is still a GREAT value for what you're getting. Too bad you're going to die immediately every fight as a Rogue due to your low AC being even lower by an obscene amount... (Lack of Dex) The Ranger will too.

[Kurald Galain]

i should clarify the shurikan house rule a bit: i had my Rogue tailor-fit some leather armour's sleeve (the right hand sleeve) to basically drop a shurikan into my hand when i wanted to so i could basically do a bowling action and send a shurikan into a nearby enemy. the DM ruled it cost about 20GP to get a clothe-maker to do this and i couldn't use it when threatened by an enemy or holding a weapon in my right-hand. so the Ranger cant unless he pays the 20GP which he doesn't want too and he couldn't use it with the bow in the same round. the shurikan also loses 1 damage.
Well, the shuriken rule really won't break your game, although it is an obvious power-boost for the rogue. It's the point buy and minor action attack rules that are the biggest problem here.

Note that 20 gp is pocket change for any character of level 2 or higher, and that a rogue throwing a shuriken could easily do 3d6+8 damage, so dropping this to 3d6+7 is really not a big deal.

[PopcornMage]

i should clarify the shurikan house rule a bit

I think I see the problem here. You had a cool idea. DM without much experience or wisdom basically said "Sure, ok" and put forth a poorly thought out way of doing it.

Nothing too surprising there, it's been part of the game since near the beginning (Monk class I'm looking at you!!) but there's a reason why most folks will tell you to avoid changing the rules.

I believe there is a Rogue variant which does this sort of thing in the Martial Powers books, but being trapped away from them at the moment, I'll have to hope I remember to look it up later.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Note that 20 gp is pocket change for any character of level 2 or higher, and that a rogue throwing a shuriken could easily do 3d6+8 damage, so dropping this to 3d6+7 is really not a big deal.

1. i got the thing at character creation
2. the DM hasnt actually given us any loot yet (we are playing a fast level game so only about 3-4 encounters before leveling)


I believe there is a Rogue variant which does this sort of thing in the Martial Powers books, but being trapped away from them at the moment, I'll have to hope I remember to look it up later.

i cant use any books except the PhB unless its something i can print off

[PopcornMage]

i cant use any books except the PhB unless its something i can print off

Wasn't expecting you to use it, so much as I could have used it to illustrate a way it was done.

[shadowmage]

As others have pointed out the stat buy is not well at all. I would use the char builder and build one legal and one by his point buy system and just show him the difference in them. maybe even one with the 3 20 build and one with a more "normal" build using his point buy. Just compare the difference in at-wills. I am sure it will be very noticeable.

[Mando Knight]

63 points not 60 so its 16/12/9/9/9/8 before racial modifiers and its the DMs rules not mine. i think my stats are: STR 6, CON 10, DEX 14, CHA 14, WIS 10 and INT 9 before racial mods.

You're right. I meant 20/11/8/8/8/8, since without dumping anything past 8 it's the best you can do.

The free shuriken slinging is also pretty broken: as a typical turn with your house rules, a Rogue could do the following:

Sly Flourish with Short Sword twice (second time with a -2 penalty)
Shift out of reach
Make a free RBA with a shuriken

With your stats (which are pretty bad), this means that you've got a potential damage of 5d6+10 at-will at level 2, without including any feats (it could easily be 3d6+2d8+13, or 3d6+2d8+16 with magic items). This is wrong.

[ninja_penguin]

Also for point buy and whatnot, regular point buy, and stat arrays that can be made with those points are all in the PHB all at the earlier part of the books.

[ShaggyMarco]

Step 1: Get you and your game-mates to pitch in a few bucks each to buy a 1-month subscription to DDI. This gets all of you access to nearly every WoTC book and magazine character resource (not Dark Sun, Essentials, or the most recent Dungeon/Dragon magazine in the character builder. This means more options to let you get exactly what you want character-wise. The character-builder solves your problem of finding a reasonable point-buy: it has one built in. This frees you from relying on the DM's books and character sheets. It also gets the DM the Adventure Tools, which is basically a database of TONS of monsters of all levels with software that lets you build custom monsters easily, and Dungeon/Dragon Magazines going back to the beginning of 4ed-lots of adventures and ideas. All of this for a little over $2 each (I think the American and Australian dollar are close enough in value that this math works out the same down under.) You get to keep this fully-stocked charater builder and Adventure Tools as long as you own the file--it won't expire, you just don't get further updates...until you want to.

Step 2: Talk your DM out of his no-dex-to-ac house-rule. This hoses Dex classes.

Step 3: Since your DM wants you guys to advance way faster than the system assumes you'll be getting gear, you guys might run into math problems on defenses and attacks with monsters. This isn't a big deal: you just get your DM to let you click the "Inherent Bonuses" box in the character builder. This automatically gives you the passive-math bonuses you would get from items without any actual items in your possession. Of course, if/when you get magic items, they will not stack with this bonus. Math will work out either way.

Step 4: That Shuriken ability is a neat concept, but really strong. In the interest of notting house-ruling yourself into being over-powered, you might suggest the following alternative to your DM: You can use your special armor to allow you to do a skill trick in combat using Sleight of Hand. Minor action to draw the shuriken and maybe make your skill check then to make your target not realize you are drawing a weapon when your hand is empty, and then make a standard-action ranged basic attack with your shuriken with combat advantage. This should probably only be doable 1/combat to a target that sees you do it before, since people would stop being surprised shurikens out of no-where.

These build ideas assume steps 1-4 are successful:

Paladin: Be a Cleric. You can really be a Fighting healer in 4ed with Cleric.
Go with a big, 2-handed big-die superior weapon (With a Dragonborn or Half-Elf, I would go Fullblade. With Dwarf, take Dwarven Weapon Training and an Executioners Axe. Focus on Strength, Wisdom, and Charisma (This means Dragonborn might work best, but Half-Elf and Dwarf both have some very good options here). Look for powers with great secondary buffs to AC and healing. Focus on powers with the weapon key-word that focus on Strength. Make sure your starting Strength is 17-19 after racial bonuses, but starting with a 20 is NOT worth it. You can balance your Charisma and Wisdom and be okay at both healing and buffing, focus on Charisma and be good at buffing but mediocre at healing, or focus on Wisdom and be good at healing (and even at using some implement attacks if your starting wisdom starts 16-18 and is boosted every time) and mediocre at buffing. Maybe spend some feats to get heavier armors. Clerics are excellent leaders that can have elements of defender and controller to them. Optimized? No. Effective and Fun big-sword toting front-line healer? Yes.

Archer Elf: Good choice! A less boring version of this build would be to take the Beast Mastery option for Rangers and get a Raptor pet. This lets you use your pet to Quarry enemies farther away (and closer to your pet). It also makes the character a little bit more interesting that point-and-click. This character can focus exclusively on Dexterity and Wisdom, with enough Con to pad-out Fort defense and hit-points. Pick up lots of attacks that let you multi-attack. Build up passive damage bonuses. All striker.

Human melee caster. Wizard is a bad idea here. Play a Swordmage. Shielding is probably the easiest Swordmage to play, and very effective. Pick up proficiency with the Bastard sword and powers that secondary key off-of Constitution. Remember to mark one target and actively engage a different one. To feel more wizardy, feel free to muti-class as wizard and possibly even power-swap for some WIzard spells, but you'll want arcane implement proficiency (heavy blade) so you can use your bastard sword for casting. Swordmages are decent (but hard to make effective) defenders, but are also decent controllers.

Overall, this would leave you a pretty balanced party: Cleric (leader with a little defender and/or control), Swordmage (defender, with a little control), Ranger (striker), Rogue (striker).

You and the Ranger will be dealing the damage. The cleric will also deal okay damage, but will mostly be keeping you, the swordmage, and himself alive. He will also make dealing damage way easier for you and the ranger. The swordmage should make it impossible for enemies to effectively focus-fire, and the ranger+his raptor should be mobile enough to not get pinned down easily.

[DragonOfUndeath]

what sort of Feats and Powers should they have?

[Mystic Muse]

what sort of Feats and Powers should they have?

That will depend on whether or not your group gets the character builder.

[DragonOfUndeath]

why? i just need some general feats and powers and some to work towards in later levels so i can map out the PCs from there. what powers would an optimized Warlock using PhB1 have? a Ranger? a Paladin?

[ShaggyMarco]

PHB1 Only-

Elf Ranger: Is Greatbow in PHB 1? If so, get proficiency with it. If not, longbow is fine. The feat that upgrades Quarry damage to D8s is pretty good. Weapon Focus (Bows) should be on your list, since it is the easiest passive damage bonus to pick up. The improved Elven Accuracy feat might also be worth your while.

Paladin: The PHB1-only Paladin is not very good. In fact, the build that best represents what you friend wants (Str/Wisdom) doesn't have a power at level 9 daily. To be a healing Paladin you need good wisdom. To have a power available at every level you need good Charisma. To have a decent melee basic attack, you need good strength. You should probably focus on Charisma and Strength and start with a decent Wisdom so you can heal okay. PHB 2 and Divine Power solve all of these problems for you. You could always multi-class to Fighter or Cleric and power-swap at level 10 to get a decent level 9 Daily.

Warlock: If you want to entertain thoughts of going melee, be an Infernal-Pact warlock with great Constitution and Intelligence. Take Improved whatever your pact-boon is called so that you get lots of Temp HP when you kill people. Have 13+ strength to start and take some armor feats (at least to get Hide armor). Toughness will make you die less. A shield might be worthwhile...Focus on powers that are Close Blast or Close Burst so that you can use them in melee.

An interesting Melee Warlock build that can be done PHB 1-only would be to focus your stats in Constitution and Strength, with a decent starting Intelligence and maybe a little Wisdom. Multi-class as a Fighter. Take lots of Constitution-based Warlock powers that push enemies/knock them prone. Take the Iron Vanguard (I think that's what it is called) Fighter Paragon Path. It lets you deal your Con modifier to enemies you push/knock prone at level 16.

Really, all of these builds have issues in PHB 1-only play (The Archery fighting style class ability is not very good, but necessary for Paragon Paths, the Paladin doesn't have enough good options for all builds, and there is no real viable melee Arcanist class, though Warlock can pretend, sort of.) This is why we are encouraging your group to shell out a few bucks for a 1-month DDI subscription.

If you were asking about a Fighter, a 2-weapon Ranger, and a Tactical Warlord? We could probably help you out a little better.

[catchthesun]

Is Greatbow in PHB 1?

I'm fairly certain Greatbow is in Adventurer's Vault 1.

[Mystic Muse]

why?

Because if you do get the character builder, we can list from pretty much any source that's come out so far. If we don't, we're forced to draw from the PHB.

[Mando Knight]

Because if you do get the character builder, we can list from pretty much any source that's come out so far. If we don't, we're forced to draw from the PHB.

For instance: The Paladin with only the PHB is horrifically MAD, and probably should only be attempted as a Dragonborn. However, throw in Divine Power, and the Paladin finally becomes as competent as it was originally intended.

A Wizard who wants to go melee is an idiot (though there are a good number of close powers, so a staff-wizard can remain close to the front of battle), but the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide adds the Swordmage class, which is very much a melee spellcaster, and who can even multiclass into Wizard to pick up some better ranged spells if he feels it necessary.

[PopcornMage]

Yes, the PHB while generally ok, is somewhat uneven, and has been steadily improved.

Is it an evil scheme to get you to buy more books, or are they just that incompetent?

You be the judge!

And ooh new comic! Huzzah!