T.G. Oskar
2010-10-18, 03:27 AM
A bit of a disclaimer before starting: this is a discussion regarding the use of a variant from Unearthed Arcana to modify a few concepts about the spells in the 3.5 Edition of Dungeons & Dragons. I believe it's better to discuss it here rather than in the Homebrew section, given that the idea would be to gauge the viability of this before actually engaging into the actual conversion. If the mods believe that this suits better the Homebrew section, feel free to move it; otherwise, any attempt to do such a conversion should be discouraged. This is only to discuss how viable that would be.
That said...
We all know that, mostly in the Core rules, there are spells that are just TOO powerful. The line of polymorph spells, starting from Alter Self and going all the way to Shapechange can make or break a game, and can definitely serve as a reason why spellcasters >>>> melee characters given the same degree of optimization between players (assuming that optimization can be quantified instead of qualified, or qualified to a degree that would assume equality, the spellcaster has a rising degree of utility over the martial character; that would be explained in other terms). Gate, of course, is another of the makers or breakers, specially since there's a magic item that does the same. Then there's also Wish. Or Miracle.
I'm referring to those spells, which despite their consumption of XP they still are quite powerful. Stuff like Sleep, Color Spray, Glitterdust or Web are still strong and useful, but they rely upon a mechanic that they still allow teamwork (Glitterdust makes enemies go blind, but you still have to do damage to them). Save or Die/Lose/Suck spells are also pretty reasonable to retain as they are, since they have natural defenses against.
But in the case of the spells on the first paragraph, the ones that usually cause headaches and are really unfair to martial characters...wouldn't it be better to turn them into incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)?
For the uninitiated, incantations within the game are ways to deliver pretty much "custom-made" powers that anyone with the right money and skills can use. Summon Monster I could only be used by spellcasters, but "Summon Cookie, the Goblin from Blackrock Forest that has 9 years old and is pretty good with a sling" is meant to be an "incantation" that anyone who knows about it could use, from the lowly Commoner 1 to the Expert 5 to the Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5, to the mythical Monk 20...granted, that they meet the requirements of skills and whatnot.
There's a system in 3.5 that works similarly (the dreaded Epic Spellcasting rules from the oft-maligned Epic Level Handbook), and the system was transported to 4E/Essentials as the Rituals that only people with a feat could learn and use...mostly spellcasters, but since 4E is pretty streamlined, it's not like that would matter.
So, removing the idea that incantations HAVE to be specific and mostly using the existing mechanics to convert those spells; would this help to reduce, even a bit, the abyss between spellcasters and martial characters? I'll state a few points that may do so:
First; that the spells would be removed from the lists but still in existence. That way, they wouldn't cease to exist within the core frame of the rules, and they don't have to be immediately banned. Which leads to...
Second; they would make them easier to ban. Or restrict. You can't assume the DM will say "no, you don't have access to that spell with your spells learned by level because I say so"; it usually aligns with the idea that everyone has agreed that those spells are technically off-limits to most people (spellcasters mostly), but that if there's any need to use them, they may be used.
Third; what's equal is not a disadvantage. As an incantation, technically everyone could use it. A Fighter that somehow gets a scroll of the incantation "Shapechange" could transform into a gold dragon (but have the very real chance of dying in the ordeal), while the Wizard couldn't simply take a day to prepare it and use it in one round. Which leads to...
Fourth; "realistic" casting time and results. Realistic is within quotation marks because evidently, transforming into someone else is unreal; but, within the game, such spells should have a much more rational casting time (hence, not real; rational). A spell that allows you to transform from human/elf/dwarf to dragon/hydra/titan in 6 seconds? But of course, this leads to one truly important point...
Fifth; it would make them plot spells. Really, these spells scream "plot devices" to everyone! Imagine: in literature, you can expect a cabal of wizards pouring their arcane powers to create a gate that connects this world with a world of utter darkness, in hopes that they can draw more power to themselves. A group of heroes takes wind of that and hopes to stop them. In literature, this takes time, has a considerable cost, involves a deadly risk, and usually serves as the end of a quest. But hey, in 3.5, a Wizard can do this in six seconds, wasting no more than 1,000 xp for the secondary function, and with means to really unmake a game (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)! But of course, there are reasons: these are legacy spells, much like how the Paladin's code existed that way, and how the Monk was constructed. Really, read Basic Dungeons & Dragons, or Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (1E or 2E) if you manage to find it and on your free time. Since there was no concept such as that, and since the idea of Incantations and Rituals within game was crafted after the release of the rules, they essentially transplanted that into the new rules.
Now, of course, there is one single point that defeats all of these: regardless of how it may be concocted, it won't be much more than a homebrew. But, hey; if this catches some wind, maybe more people may wish to use it on the rules, no? A second point I could consider is that the rules for Incantations are...well, rather quirky. That, however, can be fixed; it is homebrew, after all, and this is a good place to ask for advice. However: were that to be possible; would spells such as Shapechange, Gate and Wish be best turned into Incantations with the caveat of limited access in-game, and remove them from the spell lists while still allowing them to exist in-game? Or is it a bad idea to reduce the unlimited power of spellcasters?
That'd be the idea, and that's hopefully the point of the discussion. It's...perhaps something that may have been already discussed, but that would be thread necromancy unless it is used as a citation or as an appendix to the discussion. Who knows; maybe someone starts applying those rules officially (*coughcoughPathfindercoughhackwheeze*)...
That said...
We all know that, mostly in the Core rules, there are spells that are just TOO powerful. The line of polymorph spells, starting from Alter Self and going all the way to Shapechange can make or break a game, and can definitely serve as a reason why spellcasters >>>> melee characters given the same degree of optimization between players (assuming that optimization can be quantified instead of qualified, or qualified to a degree that would assume equality, the spellcaster has a rising degree of utility over the martial character; that would be explained in other terms). Gate, of course, is another of the makers or breakers, specially since there's a magic item that does the same. Then there's also Wish. Or Miracle.
I'm referring to those spells, which despite their consumption of XP they still are quite powerful. Stuff like Sleep, Color Spray, Glitterdust or Web are still strong and useful, but they rely upon a mechanic that they still allow teamwork (Glitterdust makes enemies go blind, but you still have to do damage to them). Save or Die/Lose/Suck spells are also pretty reasonable to retain as they are, since they have natural defenses against.
But in the case of the spells on the first paragraph, the ones that usually cause headaches and are really unfair to martial characters...wouldn't it be better to turn them into incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)?
For the uninitiated, incantations within the game are ways to deliver pretty much "custom-made" powers that anyone with the right money and skills can use. Summon Monster I could only be used by spellcasters, but "Summon Cookie, the Goblin from Blackrock Forest that has 9 years old and is pretty good with a sling" is meant to be an "incantation" that anyone who knows about it could use, from the lowly Commoner 1 to the Expert 5 to the Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5, to the mythical Monk 20...granted, that they meet the requirements of skills and whatnot.
There's a system in 3.5 that works similarly (the dreaded Epic Spellcasting rules from the oft-maligned Epic Level Handbook), and the system was transported to 4E/Essentials as the Rituals that only people with a feat could learn and use...mostly spellcasters, but since 4E is pretty streamlined, it's not like that would matter.
So, removing the idea that incantations HAVE to be specific and mostly using the existing mechanics to convert those spells; would this help to reduce, even a bit, the abyss between spellcasters and martial characters? I'll state a few points that may do so:
First; that the spells would be removed from the lists but still in existence. That way, they wouldn't cease to exist within the core frame of the rules, and they don't have to be immediately banned. Which leads to...
Second; they would make them easier to ban. Or restrict. You can't assume the DM will say "no, you don't have access to that spell with your spells learned by level because I say so"; it usually aligns with the idea that everyone has agreed that those spells are technically off-limits to most people (spellcasters mostly), but that if there's any need to use them, they may be used.
Third; what's equal is not a disadvantage. As an incantation, technically everyone could use it. A Fighter that somehow gets a scroll of the incantation "Shapechange" could transform into a gold dragon (but have the very real chance of dying in the ordeal), while the Wizard couldn't simply take a day to prepare it and use it in one round. Which leads to...
Fourth; "realistic" casting time and results. Realistic is within quotation marks because evidently, transforming into someone else is unreal; but, within the game, such spells should have a much more rational casting time (hence, not real; rational). A spell that allows you to transform from human/elf/dwarf to dragon/hydra/titan in 6 seconds? But of course, this leads to one truly important point...
Fifth; it would make them plot spells. Really, these spells scream "plot devices" to everyone! Imagine: in literature, you can expect a cabal of wizards pouring their arcane powers to create a gate that connects this world with a world of utter darkness, in hopes that they can draw more power to themselves. A group of heroes takes wind of that and hopes to stop them. In literature, this takes time, has a considerable cost, involves a deadly risk, and usually serves as the end of a quest. But hey, in 3.5, a Wizard can do this in six seconds, wasting no more than 1,000 xp for the secondary function, and with means to really unmake a game (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)! But of course, there are reasons: these are legacy spells, much like how the Paladin's code existed that way, and how the Monk was constructed. Really, read Basic Dungeons & Dragons, or Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (1E or 2E) if you manage to find it and on your free time. Since there was no concept such as that, and since the idea of Incantations and Rituals within game was crafted after the release of the rules, they essentially transplanted that into the new rules.
Now, of course, there is one single point that defeats all of these: regardless of how it may be concocted, it won't be much more than a homebrew. But, hey; if this catches some wind, maybe more people may wish to use it on the rules, no? A second point I could consider is that the rules for Incantations are...well, rather quirky. That, however, can be fixed; it is homebrew, after all, and this is a good place to ask for advice. However: were that to be possible; would spells such as Shapechange, Gate and Wish be best turned into Incantations with the caveat of limited access in-game, and remove them from the spell lists while still allowing them to exist in-game? Or is it a bad idea to reduce the unlimited power of spellcasters?
That'd be the idea, and that's hopefully the point of the discussion. It's...perhaps something that may have been already discussed, but that would be thread necromancy unless it is used as a citation or as an appendix to the discussion. Who knows; maybe someone starts applying those rules officially (*coughcoughPathfindercoughhackwheeze*)...