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View Full Version : Giving people things they don't want.



Morithias
2010-10-18, 03:59 AM
People, I don't want a flame war over this but it's getting out of hand.

When I ask for a way to improve my tracking ability, I don't want to be handed a wizard with the divination school. When I ask for a good aligned class with a death attack, I don't want to be given a wizard with finger of death. When I ask for a good archer, I don't want to be pointed to a ray specialist.

Seriously...it has to stop. When I order a hamburger at a restaurant I don't want to be given a prime steak, I want a hamburger.

When you simply say "Why don't you *insert tier 1 class here* instead?" You are adding nothing to the conversation, and not helping me solve my problem.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-18, 04:05 AM
you should play a Wizard with Fire-Resistance :smallbiggrin:

SilverLeaf167
2010-10-18, 04:08 AM
Amen.

It is indeed annoying, but it can usually be countered by simply stating in the opening post that you don't want a Wizard, don't want to hear how Monks/Fighters suck or how Half-Minotaurs r da roxorz. Say that you're sticking with whatever race/class you've got, and that you just want help with the feats etc.

A lot of people do it, and it usually works.

Morithias
2010-10-18, 04:10 AM
Amen.

It is indeed annoying, but it can usually be countered by simply stating in the opening post that you don't want a Wizard, don't want to hear how Monks/Fighters suck, or simply say that you're sticking with whatever race/class you've got, and that you just want help with the feats etc. A lot of people do it, and it usually works.

It's just getting a little nutty. I mean, let's say for some weird reason you said to me "I need a weapon to kill for ex girlfriend from a long distance away." You're asking for a sniper rifle, not me telling you to use an atomic bomb. XD

FelixG
2010-10-18, 04:13 AM
It's just getting a little nutty. I mean, let's say for some weird reason you said to me "I need a weapon to kill for ex girlfriend from a long distance away." You're asking for a sniper rifle, not me telling you to use an atomic bomb. XD

Yah...but you cant deny the style points for using an A-Bomb to take out a lone individual... :smallcool:

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-18, 04:17 AM
Yah...but you cant deny the style points for using an A-Bomb to take out a lone individual... :smallcool:

double points if you put on shades while turning away from the blast :cool:

Kaeso
2010-10-18, 04:18 AM
Amen.

It is indeed annoying, but it can usually be countered by simply stating in the opening post that you don't want a Wizard, don't want to hear how Monks/Fighters suck or how Half-Minotaurs r da roxorz. Say that you're sticking with whatever race/class you've got, and that you just want help with the feats etc.

A lot of people do it, and it usually works.

Not everybody reads the opening post, sadly.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-18, 04:21 AM
if people aren't reading the opening post how do they now what you need/want?

Morph Bark
2010-10-18, 04:21 AM
double points if you put on shades while turning away from the blast :cool:

And get killed by the radiation. :cool:


So... I presume that your problem is that you don't get to choose your class (and possibly more), but your DM or group does it for you?

pffh
2010-10-18, 04:23 AM
And get killed by the radiation. :cool:


So... I presume that your problem is that you don't get to choose your class (and possibly more), but your DM or group does it for you?

I think his problem is that he chooses his own class and then comes to the forums to get help with and people suggest he switches to a wizard.


Also if you were a wizard you wouldn't have this problem.

SilverLeaf167
2010-10-18, 04:23 AM
So... I presume that your problem is that you don't get to choose your class (and possibly more), but your DM or group does it for you?
He means that whenever he asks for build advise on the Internet (perhaps GiantITP?) he doesn't get help with his existing build, but instead an entirely new build he doesn't even want.

EDIT: Ninja'd

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-18, 04:24 AM
So... I presume that your problem is that you don't get to choose your class (and possibly more), but your DM or group does it for you?

umm if you are looking for a Ranger cause your concept wants it you dont want to change to a wizard cause 'they are teh roxxxorz' or something

EDIT: double ninja'd

Eldan
2010-10-18, 05:01 AM
I think his problem is that he chooses his own class and then comes to the forums to get help with and people suggest he switches to a wizard.


Also if you were a wizard you wouldn't have this problem.

Yeah. Example I've seen:

"I want to play an archery focused ranger using blah and blah and blah".
"Play a cleric with the following domains and two levels of...."

Morph Bark
2010-10-18, 05:03 AM
Easy solution, just say what you want but moreso what you don't want in every thread you create asking for such things.

Or twiddle your thumbs and hope those certain people who love Tier 1 too much don't show up, whether they are serious or joking.

Asking your own group rather than stuff on the forums might also help more.

ffone
2010-10-18, 05:10 AM
Amen.

Related pet peeve - asking questions about balance or DMing and getting replies like 'oh, who cares if Frenzied Berserker is balanced, if you have a Tier 1 in the party it won't matter!' (The "anything less than the most optimized possible character is OK' answer.)

Psyx
2010-10-18, 05:23 AM
if people aren't reading the opening post how do they now what you need/want?

They don't. They just say what they want to say...

Tyndmyr
2010-10-18, 08:59 AM
Title. Make them as descriptive as possible. Many a time, the title doesn't accurately summarize what the player is asking for.

That and the aforementioned specification of what you do and don't want will help quite a bit.

Also be aware that many people are lazy, and as such, you'll frequently get the fastest, easiest, and most broken way to accomplish your goal. This isn't a bad thing, but if you're looking for help with an already existing build, it might not always be helpful.

DrWeird
2010-10-18, 10:09 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-RpyUo7wE5I/SdDYVDJbaJI/AAAAAAAAAAs/QvhU3GDTitA/s320/animal_house.png

"I suggest drinking heavily."

People should read topic posts more. /thread.

Duke of URL
2010-10-18, 10:17 AM
They don't. They just say what they want to say...

Yeah, whatever. This build clearly needs MOAR DRUID!

Ormagoden
2010-10-18, 11:07 AM
I actually relate to this opinion/pain very well. I've fully given up on asking for build advice on the giant. I rarely get good answers, 90% of the people who suggest something didn't read the original post. Even if you put what you do not want in size 7 red impact font they ignore it and suggest exactly what you don't want anyway.

Cases in point:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131888


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154558 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154558)


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153599 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153599)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166572

Very very rarely it ends up being an unbearable (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140757)sidetrack, but still rather fun.

dsmiles
2010-10-18, 11:21 AM
People, I don't want a flame war over this but it's getting out of hand.

When I ask for a way to improve my tracking ability, I don't want to be handed a wizard with the divination school. When I ask for a good aligned class with a death attack, I don't want to be given a wizard with finger of death. When I ask for a good archer, I don't want to be pointed to a ray specialist.

Seriously...it has to stop. When I order a hamburger at a restaurant I don't want to be given a prime steak, I want a hamburger.

When you simply say "Why don't you *insert tier 1 class here* instead?" You are adding nothing to the conversation, and not helping me solve my problem.

AMEN! If I say I want to play a monk, don't tell me I should be playing an unarmed swordsage (or whatever they're called). If I want to play a blaster wizard, don't tell me I should be playing a control wizard. You know?

(Although I disagree on the prime steak thing. I only order hamburgers when I can't afford the steak. :smalltongue:)

Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-18, 11:27 AM
To be somewhat serious:

The reason you get alternate suggestions is that the respondant believes he has found what you want via a different route.

For example, when you ask for an "archery focused ranger using blah-blah-blaah" people are going to look at that and see "I want a character that does this." Often (in 3.5) instead of making a convoluted Feat Chain work it is far easier to make some flavor of CoDzilla or Wizard which does what the quoted build seems to want.

The best solution to this is to explain why you want a certain build. If you say "I'd like a character that does X, but he can't be a Caster because it doesn't fit the backstory" then only idiots will suggest a Caster.

People aren't always being jerks - sometimes they're trying to answer what they think is your question because the question wasn't asked with specific clarity.

Ormur
2010-10-18, 12:50 PM
Yes, people might just assume you don't know about some mechanically superior option that fits the concept being described if you don't specify it. Many people here also subscribe to the idea that classes are abstractions so you'll have to explain why you want to limit yourself to a single class or a concept when asking for advice.

Of course some people just don't pay attention and there is nothing you can do about that except ignore them (flying into rage won't make them go away) but most of the time it's probably lack of information and/or a clash of play-style philosophies that yields advice you consider useless.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-18, 12:53 PM
Honestly, I'd be satisfied with never seeing pun-pun given as an answer again.

Even if it's a high-optimization question, that's almost invariably an unhelpful post.

Eldariel
2010-10-18, 01:02 PM
It's called spam; Monty Python has a sketch on that :smallamused: Just say "No spam" and you'll get a lot of it!


Honestly, I recall never advising someone to play a Wizard if they state they have a class preference. At most I might mention a class that's exactly the same fluff-wise with a slightly different set of abilities (e.g. Monk vs. Unarmed Swordsage).

If someone comes on the forums and asks how to maximize your X by level Y, well, the answer is usually a Wizard since that's the easiest (and sometimes the only) way. But honestly, how often is someone who asked for advice on how to build character X or class X told to play Wizard instead? 'cause I don't remember many instances of that happening.

ericgrau
2010-10-18, 01:05 PM
Not everybody reads the opening post, sadly.
Which is exactly the point.

Even if you don't specify I don't want XYZ, which could get ignored anyway, it's often clear that the OP wants something within a certain concept that does not include insert-overused-build-here.

Also, gotta say ninjas are still cooler than swordsages, and I shall always get ninja'd rather than swordsaged regardless of variations in splatbook power levels.

Eldariel
2010-10-18, 01:06 PM
Also, gotta say ninjas are still cooler than swordsages, and I shall always get ninja'd rather than swordsaged regardless of variations in splatbook power levels.

The secret that's confusing you: Ninjas are Swordsages!

Greenish
2010-10-18, 01:12 PM
The secret that's confusing you: Ninjas are Swordsages!Or rather, swordsages are ninjas.

pffh
2010-10-18, 01:14 PM
Honestly, I'd be satisfied with never seeing pun-pun given as an answer again.

Even if it's a high-optimization question, that's almost invariably an unhelpful post.

Again? As in you've seen it suggested in a serious manner before?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-18, 01:16 PM
Again? As in you've seen it suggested in a serious manner before?

Sadly, yes. Heck, over in the DR 20 thread today. Not much of a challenge if you just say "aha, pun pun!".

Sure, it technically fills the requirements, but invariably not in a useful way as, even for TO, there's not much point in using pun-pun.

Eldariel
2010-10-18, 01:19 PM
Or rather, swordsages are ninjas.

I think mine is more accurate. Ninjas are categorically Swordsages, but only some Swordsages are Ninjas :smallbiggrin:

big teej
2010-10-18, 01:58 PM
He means that whenever he asks for build advise on the Internet (perhaps GiantITP?) he doesn't get help with his existing build, but instead an entirely new build he doesn't even want.

EDIT: Ninja'd


Yeah. Example I've seen:

"I want to play an archery focused ranger using blah and blah and blah".
"Play a cleric with the following domains and two levels of...."




I cannot agree with these 2 quotes more.

-goes into a longwinded rant about asking for advice on a monk and/or cleric-

:smallfurious:

Keld Denar
2010-10-18, 02:12 PM
One thing you have to note though...this is the internet. You get out of it what you put in, and you take out from it what you want. If you make a post about "improving my ranger" and you get 3 helpful posts and 5 "play a wizard noob!" posts...well, you've still gotten 3 helpful posts. Ignore the rest. Its not against the forum rules to suggest things, and indeed, sometimes the best answer to a question IS to play a wizard or some form of arcane-blended character.

"I wanna build a super sneaky character" could be met by "try a Rogue1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5 with Able Learner and Persist Spell". Does it fit what the player was asking for? Yes. Is it exactly what the player wanted? Maybe...but the poster doesn't know that. I still haven't managed to fit in that level of Mindbender, so I still don't have Telepathy, and even if I did, its still only 100' which doesn't include intarwebz.

The best thing a poster can do is invest time in their thread. If you make a post and then go off to work for 10 hours, don't be surprised if the thread has derailed 10 ways to Thursday. Like anything else, you get what you put into it. If the OP pops in after the 2nd post of "play a wizard" and says "I'd rather have little to no spellcasting since I don't like how much work it is to memorize spells" or similar, then he's more likely to get more helpful posts. If he says "my group doesn't use ToB, so Swordsage is out", that'll help as well. What if, however, one person suggests something like the above Unseen Seer build and the player says "hmmmm, that looks fun, I think I'll try being a sneaky caster"? All of a sudden, "play a wizard" advise is EXACTLY what the player was looking for. To say its never warrented is just as much a fallacy as to say that its always warrented.

Anyway, the admins have already ruled that NOBODY owns a thread. As long as everyone in the thread is behaving according to the rules, posters can suggest whatever they want. If you don't like it, ignore their posts!

Hmmmm, the only citation from a mod I can find is this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9188530&postcount=122).

Sheriff of Moddingham: Topics don't derail threads. Posters derail threads. Just about any topic can be the source of derailment if interjected in the wrong place or in the wrong way. Some topics are themselves inherently more likely to go poorly. But for the most part people should talk about what they want, in a manner that's civil, and let us worry about derailment and incivility.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-18, 02:59 PM
In my limited experience, posts with more information and more caveats tend to get fewer replies, but the replies are often more relevant. Then again, the last time I asked the playground for advice was for a wizard...

Anyway, as long as you've properly laid out why you don't want particular options, just think of "Play a wizard" posts as ways to bump your thread to the top of the forum, and ignore that content. In this way, even a Pun Pun post can be useful. Just remember, it's only a post on the intertubes.

gdiddy
2010-10-18, 03:01 PM
I wrote this because I realize it's hard to actually read what the OP writes. Basically the user of my handy guide no longer needs to exercise thought when responding to a "help my character thread". This frees up his time to post in more threads and enlighten other noobies to 3.5. Without further fanfare:


How to Give Char Op Advice on an internet forum:

1. Did the OP Mention Skills, traps, or anything non-combat related?

Yes:
"lol, dont be an idiot, go Factotum"

No:
Goto 2.

2. Did the character want to play a frontline warrior?

Yes:
"You're making a mistake and won't have any fun." Goto 3.

No:
Good. Now you can really spread your wings, you special winged snowflake, you. Goto 7.

Fighter Questions, 3-6d.

3. Has the OP mentioned what weapon he'll fight with?

Yes:
He is wrong. The only weapon is the spiked chain.

No:
"u'll definately be using a spiked chain, then"


4. Has the OP explicitly hit you over the head with the fact he wants to play a fighter?

No:
Roll 1d4:
1. "teh fighter is a class feature of the druid. just be a druid"
2. "a wizard seven levels lower than you can beat you in a fight. even in a level 1 game."
3. "clerics beat everyone at melee ever."
4. "you should be a psion instead!"

Yes:
what a dummy! He wont be able to win at DnD!

5. ToB?

Yes:
Start a flamewar, making sure you are as insensitive to other cultures as possible.

No:
Start a flamewar, accusing him of being a closed-minded uncreative fool.


6. Did he use the word “Monk”?

Yes:
That’s dumb. He should play a Barbarian2/Ranger2/Paladin of Freedom 3/Fist of Raziel 1/Exotic Weapons Master 4/ Frenzied Berzerker 8.

No:
Keep scrutinizing.

6a. Or “Knight”, “chivalry”, “mounted”, “lancer”, “cavalry”, or “horse”?

Yes:
That’s dumb. He should play a Lion Totem Barbarian1/Dungeon Crasher Fighter 12 Ubercharger with a spiked chain.

No:
Keep scrutinizing.


6b. Did she forget to mention tripping, power attack, or anything else you read in Person_man’s guides?

Yes:
This was a trick question. Girls don’t play roleplaying games.

No:
Explain how even though the OP lacks the intelligence of a tier 1 player, his entire way of life is not a threat to the continuation of the hobby, because he knows about tripping.


6c. Was the word Gish used?

Yes:
Hexblade bad.

No:
Idiot. He could use an obscure interpretation of page 306 from the spell compendium to give himself an extra 40 attacks per turn if he simply used: Zentarim Fighter 2/Wiz 5/Knight Phantom 10, Abjurant Champion 3

6d. Ranger?

Yes:
Nice try, OP, you horrible person. Play a druid.

No:
Keep scrutinizing.






7. Arcane, Divine, Psionic, or Other

Arcane:
what a smart op. Goto 8.

Divine:
Goto 10.

Psionic:
Start a flamewar. It doesn’t matter about what.

Other:
Make it seem like you care about what they have to say before using this handy formula: [OP’s concept] is cool, but only for dips. You should be [a tier one class]. Example: Incarnum is cool, but only for dips. You should just be a cleric.


8. Blaster?

Yes:
”ur wasting ur time. and you are actually committing a crime against anyone you are playing with. you are eating the flesh of orphans, but your teammates are the orphans. why not just play a monk, you disgrace”

No:
Make a fireball joke. You’re so clever.


9. More acceptable school? (Obviously he is playing a wizard, or he is an idiot.)

Yes:
Pat the OP on the back. Possibly give a piece of insightful advice.

No:
Use Heisenberg’s Wizard to prove the OP wrong and show him how silly he is for wanting to be a necromancer.


10. Druid?

Yes:
Make bear jokes. Mention dinosaurs. Your work here is done.

No:
Keep scrutinizing.


11. Cleric?

Yes:
Explain the 4 or 5 options the OP has for effectiveness. Good job. There is nothing left to Char Ops on internet forums!

Starbuck_II
2010-10-18, 03:04 PM
People, I don't want a flame war over this but it's getting out of hand.

When I ask for a way to improve my tracking ability, I don't want to be handed a wizard with the divination school.

But Wizards are good at tracking.



When I ask for a good aligned class with a death attack, I don't want to be given a wizard with finger of death.

But Finger of Death is a Death attack.


When I ask for a good archer, I don't want to be pointed to a ray specialist.

I'm not sure what happened there. :smallconfused:


Seriously...it has to stop. When I order a hamburger at a restaurant I don't want to be given a prime steak, I want a hamburger.

But the Prime steak is better for your taste buds.


When you simply say "Why don't you *insert tier 1 class here* instead?" You are adding nothing to the conversation, and not helping me solve my problem.

But it is possible the OP didn't consider Oscar's Razor (not the other Razor dude) and he could make it less complicated with the suggestion.

Unless you say what you don't want: we can only assume he wants," moar bears!"

ericgrau
2010-10-18, 05:23 PM
But that's the character concept I had in mind and background and personality ideas area already brewing and/or I wanted to try out this style of character this time instead of another because I want to have fun.

And I've already played 2 casters with conjuration, so I don't want to do it again for a while.

Morph Bark
2010-10-18, 05:32 PM
I think mine is more accurate. Ninjas are categorically Swordsages, but only some Swordsages are Ninjas :smallbiggrin:

Except for the Ninjas that don't use swords, of course. :smallwink:

Ormagoden
2010-10-18, 05:33 PM
Except for the Ninjas that don't use swords, of course. :smallwink:

Right, those are called unarmed Swordsages...

Greenish
2010-10-18, 05:33 PM
Except for the Ninjas that don't use swords, of course. :smallwink:No, those too. All martial proficiencies.

Keld Denar
2010-10-18, 05:33 PM
And I've already played 2 casters with conjuration, so I don't want to do it again for a while.

So don't. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying "THOU MUST HEED EVERY PEICE OF OPTIMIZATION ADVICE GIVEN, OR ELSE!!!! (dun dun dun!!!!!!!)". Its not like you are paying a consulting fee to the annonymous masses that make up the internet. If you don't like the product, you can ask for a refund (which is $0).

Anyway, half of the fun of practical optimization is optimizing yourself out of a self-imposed paper bag. Look at the Iron Optimization challenge. They start with a crappy PrC, then make it good. You can do that with ANYTHING. "I want to play an unarmed fighter who doesn't suck" Well, I can think of 4 different build avenues that are all different, and only one even uses a couple levels of Monk. "I want to play a sneaky sneaker". Again, half a dozen ideas in my head already, from Unseen Seer builds to Cloistered Clerics with Kobold + Trickery domains to Daring Outlaw builds to size reduction advantage builds to a ton of other ideas.

Just because advise isn't exactly what you want, doesn't mean its worthless, and sometimes it might be exactly what you were looking for and you didn't even realize it.

PopcornMage
2010-10-18, 05:54 PM
Seriously...it has to stop. When I order a hamburger at a restaurant I don't want to be given a prime steak, I want a hamburger.


Reminds me of the comedy bit where somebody orders something. Then the stuffy waiter, or maitre'd or hotel bellhop says something similar but different. The first guy says it slower and longer. The person repeats it, but still gets it wrong.

Funny on TV, horrible in real life.