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pffh
2010-10-18, 05:23 AM
Am I correct that the only thing that works of charisma in the binder is the binding check? Because it seems to me that the most fun of a binder is when you make a bad pact and the vestiges personality is forced on you. So I'm thinking about making charisma my dump stat.

Am I missing anything (such as some other binder stuff that runs off charisma) or is this completely viable?

Psyren
2010-10-18, 07:09 AM
Vestige DCs key off Charisma as well (e.g. Acererak's Paralyzing Touch requires a fort save), but you can just focus on Vestiges whose abilities don't require saves like Paimon and Savnok.

Feel free to dump Charisma if you wish; in fact, Binders are one of the few classes in the game that can get by dumping any stat at all, or with extremely low point-buy/bad stat rolls. Play up your gish aspect and you won't even notice. (Knight of the Sacred Seal is VERY handy for this, getting you to the coveted +16 BAB.)

Person_Man
2010-10-18, 10:47 AM
Several things:

Making your binding check is sometimes a non-trivial thing, since the Influence of some vestiges can greatly effect your actions.
Cha effects social Skills. If you have a high Cha, you can also effectively use UMD at mid levels if you're willing to invest a few ranks in it cross class.
As Psyren noted, it effects Save DCs. This is actually a very big deal, since a lot of the Binder's best abilities are Save or Lose effects - Dahlver-Nar (Save or Daze), Focalor (Save or Blind), Acererak (Save or Paralyze), etc.


Having said that, if you're strategic you can have a Binder with a dumped Cha. You generally just don't want to if it can be avoided.

Murdim
2010-10-18, 11:28 AM
Am I correct that the only thing that works of charisma in the binder is the binding check? Because it seems to me that the most fun of a binder is when you make a bad pact and the vestiges personality is forced on you. So I'm thinking about making charisma my dump stat.

Am I missing anything (such as some other binder stuff that runs off charisma) or is this completely viable?
While it is possible to do so by simply dumping Charisma and avoiding vestiges that grant "offensive" abilities, this strikes me as awesome homebrew material. Maybe as a class variant... 6 Cha or less as a prerequisite to take the first level, autofails binding checks, +5 to the DCs of vestige-granted abilities, +5 to all Charisma-based checks while bound to a vestige, with maybe another drawback to balance it out.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-18, 12:01 PM
If fail binding, you have to follow influence (what the vestige wants) or take penalties. This can be bad.

pffh
2010-10-18, 12:50 PM
Well I'll be working with either 17,17,15,15,11,7 or 17,16,13,12,11,10.
The character concept is someone that has lost a piece of his soul making him appear distant, cold and easily manipulated so adump of cha or wis seems the most logical.
He uses the vestiges as a way to fill that void so that's why I'm leaning towards cha since I imagine they would have considerable control over him.

mootoall
2010-10-18, 12:54 PM
You could just intentionally fail your binding check every time. That way you keep the high Cha saves and other goodies like UMD.

lsfreak
2010-10-18, 01:11 PM
I'd go for intentionally failing the binding check. Even then, though, a lot of them can be really rough - it's meant to be something that's a noticeable problem if you're always having their influence, and the checks are often difficult enough that you'll be failing at them fairly often as it is. You'll still have plenty of time to roleplay poor binds. You also have the roleplaying of dealing with the physical signs, which goes hand-in-hand with keeping yourself hidden as to what you really are and roleplaying around society prejudice.

Person_Man
2010-10-18, 01:21 PM
With those stats there's really no reason to dump Cha. Dump Wis instead - you have strong Will Save and a boat load of mental protections as class abilities.

Also, what level are you playing at?

Psyren
2010-10-18, 02:05 PM
If fail binding, you have to follow influence (what the vestige wants) or take penalties. This can be bad.

If by "bad" you mean "tons of fun" then yes :smallbiggrin:


With those stats there's really no reason to dump Cha. Dump Wis instead - you have strong Will Save and a boat load of mental protections as class abilities.

Yeah this, especially if you take the first spread :smalleek:
Just stay away from Allips...

pffh
2010-10-18, 02:45 PM
With those stats there's really no reason to dump Cha. Dump Wis instead - you have strong Will Save and a boat load of mental protections as class abilities.

Also, what level are you playing at?

Probably starting at level 1.

Hmm dumping wis can work.

Person_Man
2010-10-18, 03:06 PM
Probably starting at level 1.

Hmm dumping wis can work.

Your level 1 options:

Amon: Darkvision, Fire Breath*, Ram Attack: If your DM allows you to use the metabreath feats (especially Entangling Breath) with the Fire Breath vestige ability, this is a great low level combo. If not, skip it.

Aym: Dwarven Step, Halo of Fire, Improved Sunder, Medium Armor Proficiency, Resistance to Fire, Ruinous Attack: Garbage, IMO.

Leraje: Hide Bonus, Low-Light Vision, Precise Shot, Ricochet, Weapon Proficiency: Useful at first level if you want to be a ranged build. Beyond that it's a waste.

Naberius: Disguise Self, Faster Ability Healing, Naberiusís Skills, Persuasive Words*, Silver Tongue. Faster healing heals ability damage every round. This is mostly useful in that it allows the use of several potent Vile feats (check out Elder Evils) and drugs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101) and the Festering Anger (Book of Vile Darkness) disease. Persuasive Words is Command, which is a very useful low level Save or Suck. Silver Tongue gives large buffs to Diplomacy and Bluff, which is awesome when combined with the Disguise Self ability.

Ronove - Cold Iron and Magic Attacks, Far Hand*, Feather Fall, Ronoveís Fists, Sprint. Although you can bind it at 1st level, Renove isnít useful until much later on. Far Hand lets you move objects with like Mage Hand with a Str equal to your Binder level as a Swift Action, and you can keep it going continuously once started. So buy a very wide and very thin sheet of mithral or whatever, and move it around the battlefield at will to block line of sight and frustrate enemies. You also gain Improved Unarmed Strike and Unarmed Damage as a Monk of your Binder level, which gives you access to massive damage if you know what youíre doing.


If you take the Practiced Binder feat (which every ECL 10ish or lower Binder should) then you also have the option of binding:

Dahlver-Nar: Mad Soul, Shield Self, Maddening Moan*, Natural Armor. Shield Self makes one target share 50% of your damage (Will negates). Buy a mule or some other animal, and keep Shield Self on it continuously, and youíve basically increased your hit points by 50%. Then in the first or second round of combat try to switch it to the most dangerous enemy. Maddening Moan is a very potent area of effect Save or Daze effect (Will negates, Mind Effecting). And the nifty Natural Armor bonus is based off your Con. This is my favorite 1st level Binder choice.

Haagenti: Confusing Touch*, Immunity to Transformation, Shield Proficiency, Weapon Proficiency: Confusing Touch is a very useful Save or Suck, but at 1st level it only lasts 1 round, so I'd skip it for now.

Malphas: Birdís Eye Viewing, Invisibility*, Poison Use, Sudden Strike. Bird's Eye Viewing is nice for Binders who want to scout, or those who need a constant supply of birds for some other weird combo. But in most cases this is vestige doesn't becomes useful until later - Invisibility only lasts Binder level rounds, so 1 round at 1st level.

Savnok: Call Armor, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Move Ally*, Savnokís Armor: Free full plate armor and DR 1/Piercing is actually very helpful at 1st level, though I still prefer Dahlver-Nar.


As you can see, most of your strongest/most interesting options include a Save DC, which is Cha dependent.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-18, 03:09 PM
Ronove also lets you Bull Rush at range and deal 1d6 damage with no attack roll.

pffh
2010-10-18, 03:38 PM
Yeah I see your point, dump wis it is. Also woah that's a detailed list thanks man it will come in handy when deciding my vestige of the day. :smallsmile:

Psyren
2010-10-18, 03:52 PM
Don't forget that a low-Cha Binder is perfectly viable. (Moreso than, say, a low-Cha Bard/Paladin.) So if being low Cha fits your character concept, by all means roll with it. Though I do think Wisdom is in short supply among most Binders, personally.