Arcane Healing [D&D 3.5]

[Lappy9000]

..........

[Eloel]

They are already too strong and shouldn't be able to self-heal cheaply?
So people can argue Fighters are better because they have more HP?

[Fouredged Sword]

Bard has to have something besides being a skillmonkey sorrcerer

[Mongoose87]

Well, if you want to get technical (and that's what we do around here, isn't it?), the SRD says that Sorcerer's draw their spells primarily from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, meaning, apparently, as long as most of your spells are from there, you can cherry pick a few other, awesome spells.

EDIT: I think I might go point this out in the thread discussing the merits of Sorcerers vs Beguilers.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Well, if you want to get technical (and that's what we do around here, isn't it?), the SRD says that Sorcerer's draw their spells primarily from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, meaning, apparently, as long as most of your spells are from there, you can cherry pick a few other, awesome spells.

EDIT: I think I might go point this out in the thread discussing the merits of Sorcerers vs Beguilers.

I checked the SRD to see if this was true, and not only is it, I can't find any text that explicitly disallows a Sorcerer cherry picking spells from other lists. This is the actual text:

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below). ... A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Nowhere in there does it say that a sorcerer can only learn spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. The closest it comes is the part I bolded above. Arguably, that implies that the sorcerer can research new spells like a wizard can, but by RAW it doesn't say the sorcerer can't learn a druid or cleric spell if he wished (and spent "some time studying," whihc is open to interpretation itself).

[Diarmuid]

But, you're interpretation may not jive with your DM's interpretation and he/she has final say on whether you can learn a new spell or not.

[Person_Man]

It's a legacy thing. In 1st and 2nd editions, Clerics were heal-bots. With a few notable exceptions, that's what they spent most of their time doing. Thus when spells were divvied up for 3.0, Clerics got healing.

[Mongoose87]

But, you're interpretation may not jive with your DM's interpretation and he/she has final say on whether you can learn a new spell or not.

While this is true, we usually just default to RAW, since it is common ground.

[Diarmuid]

The OP posted the RAW and it leaves plenty of room to justify spells from other lists, new spells, etc.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Diarmiud: I know full well that a DM would likely disallow it, especially if the sorcerer-only spells are allowed, as those already give the sorcerer some nice stuff. I'm just, as Mongoose said, pointing out the RAW and supporting his point with it. It's basically one of those, "Oh, dear. I know that's wrong, I just can't seem to think of why," type things.

[Kobold-Bard]

There was a series called "Stories Behind the Spells" or something. It gave a nice backstory to most of the SRD spells, many were awesome.

Short Version: After years of dutiful worship the gods felt people could be trusted with magic (obviously a weaker version than those they used to form the multiverse) so they gave people the power to cast spells.

However because they could now use magic for themselves people didn't feel the need to worship them anymore, which unsurprisingly annoyed the Gods. So they basically re-wrote the rules that meant healing magic was now a conjuration spell, and made sure they were the only source of it, meaning people had to worship them in order to access it. So that's why only Divine Casters get it.

Of course this is 3rd party and has nothing to do with why the rules actually exist (basically Clerics are healers, deal with it as person man said), but I like the story.

[Kobold-Bard]

That looks really interesting. I'll do a Google for that, methinks.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm doing a different spell system thing and couldn't for the life of me figure out how to divide arcane spells from divine ones.

Line up all the spells at each spell level, then roll an increasingly smaller dice, put the odd rolls in arcane and the even rolls in divine :smallamused:

[Random NPC]

After reading that, as a DM, I would let the Sorcerer learn the Cure-line of spells if he really wanted to. Why? Cure spells are subpar and the Sorcerer is giving slots that could be used on more powerful spells to fill the role of a back-up or even main healer. This would maybe decrease the Sorcerer's power considerably, while giving him a bit more utility.

[Bugbeartrap]

Could always just take arcane disciple or the sorc variant from complete champion.

[Kobold-Bard]

Shameless self-promotion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172365) for Arcane healing.

[Southern Cross]

Here is my own take on the arcane healing problem:
Healer Mage (Arcane/General)
Prerequisite: The character must be able to cast arcane spells of the Evocation school.
Benefit:The character has a strong link to the Positive Material Plane. In game terms, the caster adds the Conjuration (healing) spells to his (her) spells known. However, those spells are added to the Evocation school, not the Conjuration school.
This link comes in two forms:
Partial Link: The character also has a link with the Negative Material Plane. In game terms, the character can also cast Necromancy spells, but gains no bonus spell slots (use this Feat as above.)
Full Link: The character can only access the Positive Material Plane.The caster gains the above benefits, and a bonus spell slot per spell level (as per an evoker,but only for healing spells), but loses access to the Necromancy school.

[Zeofar]

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study

I'm pretty sure this is just referring to Sorcerers being allowed to create and learn spells like Wizards, possibly more or less abstractly.

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure this is just referring to Sorcerers being allowed to create and learn spells like Wizards, possibly more or less abstractly.

Sure it is, but there is nothing to say that the spells they come up with can't be healing spells.

The closest thing to a true demarcation we can find is in Epic spell development: spells with the Heal or Life seeds are always divine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingepicspells.htm) and in fact, require a divine focus.

Personally, I think if you want to be a "healing arcanist" you should either be a theurge or give psionics a look, but that doesn't mean I'd stop arcanists from researching healing.

[aboyd]

As Bugbeartrap said, there is a feat in Complete Champion that allows a wizard to take a cleric domain, including the spells. So the wizard could take the healing domain. Poof, access to healing spells. Granted, the wizard has to follow the domain rules, so he/she can only cast each spell once per day. However, once the spells are on his/her list, then casting them from wands becomes possible. So, get the domain, grab wands, and off ya go. Wizard healbots.

[Aron Times]

There is a spell in the Planar Handbook available to clerics, wizards, and sorcerers which lets them heal non-evil living targets. I'm AFB right now, more details later.

[Urpriest]

In general though, it's just not part of the standard flavor. In every setting I've seen where arcane healing was common, it was either a) sciencey in flavor (which in D&D is covered by psionics), or b) the setting didn't have any division between arcane/divine magic. When you make that sort of division, part of the point is that "priestly" spells go to the divine casters, and "magely" spells go to the arcane casters. If you're making that division, healing is inevitably going to end up "priestly".

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords, Dragon Magic pg. 74, Sorcerer only self healing. Still means you have to use a level 5 spell known (or spend 25k on a knowstone) on a standard action self heal, but still.

[Zeful]

I know 3.5 D&D doesn't really differentiate too much between arcane and divine from mechanical standpoints, but is there any particular reason why a wizard/sorcerer couldn't access healing other than a designer thought it should be that way? Bards are arcane, and they can do it (I'm sure there are some other classes as well).

To me, it just looks like an excuse to require a priest kinda class (cleric, druid, etc.) just for the purpose of patching up the party. Thoughts?

Arcane casters are already broken enough and invalidate most of the classes in the game. Giving them the ability to heal simply means there only is one class: Wizard.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Arcane casters are already broken enough and invalidate most of the classes in the game. Giving them the ability to heal simply means there only is one class: Wizard.Quoth Logic Ninja:
Every time a wizard casts a spell that's on a divine list, for that round he's a sucker.I don't think it changes game balance much, for this reason. I guess wizards/sorcerers get wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor more easily.

[Zeful]

Quoth Logic Ninja: I don't think it changes game balance much, for this reason. I guess wizards/sorcerers get wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor more easily.

There are only a handful of things that a divine class can do that a Wizard can't, the biggest of those is heal, because it then allows for the Wizard to actually be the only class required to do anything from level 1 on.

It changes game balance in the sense that there only needs to be one class in the game to balance things for.

[HunterOfJello]

Make everyone in the party play Warforged. Then you can heal them all.

[Reynard]

Um, Spell Compendium, page 218.

Synostodweomer. Bam!

Arcane healing spell. 7th level for some reason, though.

[Napftor]

There was a series called "Stories Behind the Spells" or something. It gave a nice backstory to most of the SRD spells, many were awesome...

Thanks for the compliment, KB! I'm pretty happy with how that turned out, myself. You are indeed referring to the Behind the Spells series and, for those interested, that particular installment was the "Cure Wounds" one.

As to the topic at hand, while the RAW don't forbid some sorcerer cherry-picking of healing spells it does seem against the spirit of those same rules to do so given the game's history.

[wayfare]

I always thought it would be great to have arcane healing, but with a catch. Maybe it functions like fast healing, or maybe is just isn't as powerful as the stuff clerics can pull off.

I still think higher-level stuff like heal and raise dead should stay with the cleric, but a few healing spells wont really hurt.

[FMArthur]

Aren't there any creatures on the Summon Monster lists that offer easy healing?

[SurlySeraph]

I always thought it would be great to have arcane healing, but with a catch. Maybe it functions like fast healing, or maybe is just isn't as powerful as the stuff clerics can pull off.

I still think higher-level stuff like heal and raise dead should stay with the cleric, but a few healing spells wont really hurt.

There is. I know there's a Necromancy spell in the Spell Compendium that transfers HP from the caster to a target.

EDIT: Healing Touch. Wizard 3, heals 1/2 CL d6s, caster takes half that as damage.

[Reynard]

Um, Spell Compendium, page 218.

Synostodweomer. Bam!

Arcane healing spell. 7th level for some reason, though.
Did you just not read this?

[Kobold-Bard]

Aren't there any creatures on the Summon Monster lists that offer easy healing?

Avoral from SM7 can heal 66HP with Lay on Hands. I'm sure there are others too.

[Count D20]

Avoral from SM7 can heal 66HP with Lay on Hands. I'm sure there are others too.

coatls and several celestial creatures.

[nedz]

False Life and Vampiric Touch kind of do pro-active healing :smallsmile:

There are some sorceror only feats from dragon magazine, but I'm not sure that counts.

[Echoes]

I may be missing something, but what's to stop a wizard or sorcerer from worshipping a god with the Healing domain, and taking the "Arcane Disciple" feat (CDiv. 79).

Benefit: Add the chosen domain’s spells to your class list of arcane spells. [...] Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.

To do it would require some careful planning and the caster would be sacrificing a lot for only minimal healing capability, but unless I'm misreading it, seems like that should get you 1 healing spell/level.

[FMArthur]

A feat slot.

Also it doesn't quite cover a full party's worth of wounds for the day.

[Marnath]

A feat slot.

Also it doesn't quite cover a full party's worth of wounds for the day.

It would be more useful for a sorceror if you ruled it adds to their spells known, not the list they can choose spells known from. Seriously, burning a feat is harsh enough without making it 1/day, or making a sorc use a real spell for something you paid a feat for.

[HunterOfJello]

A lack of Arcane healing is that big of a deal.


UMD with Lesser Vigor wands along with a Healing belt or two make up for most healing anyone ever needs.

[aboyd]

Also it doesn't quite cover a full party's worth of wounds for the day.
Well, once you have the ability to cast those spells, it doesn't matter that you can only cast once per day. You get a wand, and then you will be able to cover a full party's worth of wounds. Or do wands not work with this?

[Marnath]

Pretty sure they do work with this. You might have to use arcane versions though, idk if bards have arcane cure wands or if they use the divine ones.

[Fizban]

I always thought it would be great to have arcane healing, but with a catch. Maybe it functions like fast healing, or maybe is just isn't as powerful as the stuff clerics can pull off.

I still think higher-level stuff like heal and raise dead should stay with the cleric, but a few healing spells wont really hurt.

Here's a pair of ideas ripped from the Wheel of Time setting: have the spells only affect a target once per day, or instead of healing they just convert lethal damage to nonlethal damage. Both at the same time is what the setting uses, but for normal DnD that's not going to be very useful at all. The once per day limit is effective but feels arbitrary. I like the nonlethal conversion the most since if you "heal" everyone before resting for the night, 8 hours of rest is enough to cure all the nonlethal damage off of anyone but those with the highest constitution scores. It's useless for prolonging the combat day on it's own, so the cleric isn't invalidated, but when paired with a cleric you can maximize your healing potential (since magical healing cures nonlethal damage as a bonus on the side). Basically it would let arcanists heal, but they'd still need a leg up from a divine caster or an extra spell to remove the nonlethal damage.

[gorfnab]

After taking the Arcane Disciple: Healing Domain feat you could just go into the Combat Medic (HoB) prestige class so that you can spontaneously "Heal".

[Dr.Epic]

Bards get healing spells.

[Kobold-Bard]

After taking the Arcane Disciple: Healing Domain feat you could just go into the Combat Medic (HoB) prestige class so that you can spontaneously "Heal".

What book is HoB?

[gorfnab]

What book is HoB?
Heroes of Battle
The Combat Medic prestige class is on page 99.

[Runestar]

Limited wish can replicate heal. :smallbiggrin:

[Iceforge]

Sorcerers and healing spells, as discussed, I do not know where in the SRD it says it, or if the SRD does indeed say it, but the book clearly in the magic section clearifies that Sorcerers can learn ANY ARCANE spell, even if it does not figure on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, as long as he observes it first (I cannot remember if there is an actual mechanic for it involving spellcraft or not), so a sorcerer can learn spells from the bard list as well

In 3.0, iirc, this was not restricted to Arcane spells, which iirc was a restriction added in 3.5

[tyckspoon]

Sorcerers and healing spells, as discussed, I do not know where in the SRD it says it, or if the SRD does indeed say it, but the book clearly in the magic section clearifies that Sorcerers can learn ANY ARCANE spell, even if it does not figure on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, as long as he observes it first (I cannot remember if there is an actual mechanic for it involving spellcraft or not), so a sorcerer can learn spells from the bard list as well


It doesn't say it at all clearly. It says
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

Which boils down to 'ask your DM really nicely', and was probably just intended to let Sorcerers perform spell research to make custom spells in the same way Wizards can. Which, again, is basically just "ask your DM and hope he agrees with you about what appropriate spells are."

[Jack_Simth]

The Polymorph spell (and anything that inherits from it) can also be used for healing (although VERY inefficient, up until Shapechange).

Aren't there any creatures on the Summon Monster lists that offer easy healing?
Yeah - you can get basic HP healing off of the Core lists for:
Summon Monster IX: Leonal, Couatl
Summon Monster VIII: Lillend
Summon Monster VII: Avoral
Summon Monster VI: Bralani


Limited wish can replicate heal. :smallbiggrin:Through the Adept spell list, yes.

And Restoration, and Raise Dead (although you'll need the material components), and Reincarnate, and a few particularly useful Cleric spells from the Spell Compendium (like, say, Revivify).

[Southern Cross]

Or you could play a spellcaster from Arcana Evolved. No silly arcane/divine separation there.....

[Frosty]

If you use Arcane Disciple, you can heal effectively assuming you have enough Pearls of Power. Prepare Heal once. Use it in battle once. Use Pearl of Power at end of battle to regain the Heal. You don't want to spend an action in-battle to use the Pearl, but if you're casting Heal more than once per battle you're probably doing something wrong.

[Callista]

What about emergency healing? Something that would cure one or maybe a small die of HP, or just stabilize somebody. Are there options for that? Mostly it would be used for when the cleric is out cold and someone needs to revive him... In general, of course, you'd be using healing potions for that... still, a spell can be re-memorized and a potion gets used up. Maybe a 1st-level spell that can duplicate Cure Minor?

[Echoes]

Honestly, if you were in need of a single point of health that desparately, I would just advise a few ranks in the Heal skill, or a healer's kit and whatever that alchemy item is from Complete Scoundrel that gives the heal circumstance bonus.

[Jack_Simth]

What about emergency healing? Something that would cure one or maybe a small die of HP, or just stabilize somebody. Are there options for that? Mostly it would be used for when the cleric is out cold and someone needs to revive him... In general, of course, you'd be using healing potions for that... still, a spell can be re-memorized and a potion gets used up. Maybe a 1st-level spell that can duplicate Cure Minor?
Ring of Spell Storing, Minor. 18k - and curiously, doesn't have the same clause about cantrips and orisons taking up a half-level that scrolls, wands, and potions do.

Alternately, Imbue with Spell Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm) a bit in advance. By the time you can cast it, anyone in your party can carry around two 1st level spells, and one 2nd level spell.

[Tvtyrant]

False Life for emergencies, the conversion to subdual damage for the long run. Sounds good to me.

[n00b killa]

Pathfinder gave us Infernal Healing, wich is kinda cool.

You outheal the cleric on out-of-battle healing at lvl 1.