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Jobin
2010-10-18, 08:14 PM
I need some advice on making a level 9-10 healer... looking for a class(or multi) that allows me to heal as my main function but I also would like to help the party out in other ways..also any feats I should take a look at or even books.. I looked at clerics and druids but was not happy haha.. but if those are the best healers let me know!

Thanks J!

Thurbane
2010-10-18, 08:42 PM
Clerics are pretty much the best healers - and have the most versatility outside of healing, too. The fact that they can memorize any spell and spontaneously turn it into a Cure is hard to beat.

Urpriest
2010-10-18, 08:48 PM
9-10...ooh, you could make a good Hellfire Ur-Lock!

Here's the mix: take one level Binder, four levels Warlock. Add in two levels of Ur-Priest, plus two of Eldritch Disciple. Worship a nonevil deity and gain Healing Blast as one of your Eldritch Disciple abilities. Take levels in Hellfire Warlock when done, binding Naberius with your Binder level to offset the Con damage. You're casting as at least a fourth level cleric, but more importantly you can spend turn attempts to make your Eldritch Blast heal instead of deal damage. Get a good Cha for turning attempts, good Wis for casting, and at least a +1 Int and Human for the skill points you need for Ur-Priest. Shake well, and make sure you're not pissing off your DM.

Jobin
2010-10-18, 08:49 PM
The can do that? haha Guess I should of read more carefully!

Road_Runner
2010-10-18, 08:56 PM
I know you mentioned you didn't like the Cleric or Druid options, but in case you missed it Radiant Servant of Pelor is an awesome healing class. Basically this class eventually has every Healing Domain spell automatically empowered and Maximized, not to mention they get double turn undead attempts for plenty of fuel for DMM if you want other capabilities other than healing or you want to superbuff your healing with Twin/Reach/Chain/etc Metamagic.

Jobin
2010-10-18, 08:57 PM
Thanks! Where would I find that class?

Jobin
2010-10-18, 09:01 PM
Is that the healing domain cleric?

Jobin
2010-10-18, 09:04 PM
9-10...ooh, you could make a good Hellfire Ur-Lock!

Here's the mix: take one level Binder, four levels Warlock. Add in two levels of Ur-Priest, plus two of Eldritch Disciple. Worship a nonevil deity and gain Healing Blast as one of your Eldritch Disciple abilities. Take levels in Hellfire Warlock when done, binding Naberius with your Binder level to offset the Con damage. You're casting as at least a fourth level cleric, but more importantly you can spend turn attempts to make your Eldritch Blast heal instead of deal damage. Get a good Cha for turning attempts, good Wis for casting, and at least a +1 Int and Human for the skill points you need for Ur-Priest. Shake well, and make sure you're not pissing off your DM.


Sounds good! but yea my DM would prob kill me haha :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-10-18, 09:07 PM
Do you actually want to focus on healing? Cleric is the best healer in the game, but ultimately Healing isn't all that special a function; it's important to have access to healing outside combat but that's easily done with simple Wand of Cure Light Wounds (275 HP healed for 750 GP). When in-combat healing becomes useful is level 11 when Clerics gain access to Heal. Most of the time, doing something active to prevent the damage in the first place (disabling opponents, buffing allies, killing opponents, teleporting somewhere or some such mitigates more damage) is going to "cure" more than curing.

If you wish to optimize Healing, you'll probably want:
Cleric base (best healer with most ways to improve it)

Spontaneous Domain Casting variant [Player's Handbook II]: Pick Healing-domain. This lets you spontaneously cast spells from Healing-domain instead of Cures; this means you get Cures, and also Heal & Mass Heal, which are actually worth casting. The variant gives up ability to spontaneously cast spells which is absolutely fine, since you can still spontaneously cast all Cure-spells, and get few really good inclusions (Regenerate has some niché uses like if you encounter someone who has lost limbs, you can Regenerate them; people rarely have the spell prepared but this way you'll always have access to it).

Radiant Servant of Pelor Prestige Class [Complete Divine]: You can enter on level 6 so do that (if your campaign setting does not contain Pelor, ask your DM to refluff it for whatever the sun god in your world is). You can jump out after level 5 of the class or, if you only single-mindedly care about healing, you can go all the way.

Divine Spell Power Feat [Complete Divine]: This allows you to burn Turn Attempts to gain extra Caster Level. This enhances your Cure-spells but more importantly, it allows you to cast long duration Buffs at higher caster level (extremely important for e.g. Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon, things you want cast on every piece of weapon and armor the party uses).

Divine Metamagic Feat [Complete Divine]: This feat allows you to burn Turn-attempts to fuel Metamagic feats. Persistent Spell is normally a very good one (indeed, Persistent Positive Energy Aura or Vigorous Circle [Spell Compendium] is a good way to give everyone constant, free healing), but here, if you actually want to cast healing spells in combat, you could instead pick up Twin Spell. This simply Twins your Cure/Heal/whatever, allowing you to heal for truly ludicrous amounts when necessary (assume you have 10 levels of Radiant Servant of Pelor, so you're level 15; you'd use Cure Critical Wounds for (32 from maximized dice + 20 caster level + 4d8 * .5 Empower) *2 = (52 + avg. 9) * 2 = 122 points out of a level 4 slot. Your Heal would, of course, heal for 300 points when that's necessary.

You can expend a large number of feats on Extra Turnings, and acquire a bunch of Nightsticks [Libris Mortis] & Reliquary Holy Symbols [Magic Item Compendium], and various Charisma-boosters to increase your Turning pool to support this and Divine Spell Power.

Imbued Healing Feat [Complete Champion]: Other domains have nice effects but for pure healing, Healing-domain allows you to grant target's Class Level in Temporary HP to them whenever you cast a Healing-type spell on them. In other words, it gives every target you heal further extra HP. And they last for 1 hour so you can easily have this in place before every encounter by casting Cure Minor Wounds on everyone.

Hierophant Prestige Class [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm)]: Now, you only want 1 level here as it doesn't progress your spells per day (though it progresses your caster level). It's actually a huge hit as you only gain Mass Heal and all the goodies on level 18. But you can pick up Divine Reach which allows you to use Chain Spell [Complete Arcane] your Heals and such, meaning you can use simple Rod of Chain Spell to cast "Mass Heal" from a 6th level slot. At the very latest, this can be picked up on level 18. Not relevant right now, but something to keep in mind.


And well, buffing; Cleric's list is perfectly suited for buffing. Heroes' Feast, Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance (tho beware: this affects friendly spells too, a big deal if you intend on casting Cures on guys under this), Death Ward, Resist Energy, Shield of Faith, Magic Circle Against Alignment, there's just an infinity of buffs on Cleric-list just in Core.

Jobin
2010-10-18, 09:15 PM
Thanks Bunches Eldariel.. Looks like Ill be spending some time looking up Clerics spell list!

Road_Runner
2010-10-18, 09:19 PM
Thanks! Where would I find that class?

Its in Complete Divine.

EDIT: Oh somebody already posted the sourcebook.. nvm.

Psyren
2010-10-18, 09:20 PM
Worship a nonevil deity

That's actually the rub - you can't have a deity as an Ur-Priest.

The best you can manage is the adaptation, which lets you use a dead deity, but very few settings have non-evil versions of those.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-18, 09:25 PM
A Player's Guide to Healing (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal) is pretty much a Must Read if you're interested in a healing character.


Don't forget that the most cost effective of healing outside of combat is a Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp for 11hp).

Also, you're a Cleric, not a healbot. You have lots of cool and powerful spells available to you so do some research and become the Tier 1 super-spellcaster that you're meant to be!




That's actually the rub - you can't have a deity as an Ur-Priest.

The best you can manage is the adaptation, which lets you use a dead deity, but very few settings have non-evil versions of those.

That's when you make an argument to your DM to create an Atheist Deity. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-10-18, 09:35 PM
Thanks Bunches Eldariel.. Looks like Ill be spending some time looking up Clerics spell list!

I seem to have written some kind of an assessment on Core spells specifically with a Caster Cleric (as opposed to Warrior Cleric) in mind (note though, especially Spell Compendium [includes Complete Divine spells], Complete Champion and Player's Handbook II have other useful spells though - Clerics automatically know all spells on their spell list, so if you can, take a look). Figured it might be of use to you:

Offense:
Level 1
Cause Fear: Nice Will Save-or-Lose as long as the HD limit isn't a problem; unfortunately single-target. Close range.
Command: Nice Will Save-or-Suck. Again, though, single-target. Close range.

Level 2
Hold Person: Humanoid SoL. Handy. Medium range.
Shatter: Destroy weapons, armor, etc. Nice combination with Dispels and such. Close range.
Silence: Caster Will SoL, or no-save effect if you have some control effects to prevent opponent from leaving the covered area. Also, nice readied action to screw spellcasting. Long range (!!) multi-target.
Sound Burst: Meh damage, with Fort-or-Stun. If you have someone to CDG the stunned guy, it's alright. The damage isn't the reason to pick it. Close range multi-target.
Spiritual Weapon: It's a decent damage spell, especially since Cleric BAB is pretty good; it'll keep attacking for effectively the entire combat and it takes only a move action to redirect.

Level 3
Bestow Curse: Will SoS. Clerics have lots of these. Good for debuffing Planar Bound creatures or such. Touch range.
Blindness/Deafness: Blindness is an excellent debuff. Fort SoS basically. Medium range.
Dispel Magic: Magic is very powerful, so ability to stop magic is absolutely incredible. Disable Fighter's gear, remove buffbots buffs, save your allies from variety of SoLs, infinitely powerful. Medium range multi-target.
Invisibility Purge: Well, not really offense, but still. 5'/level range.
Searing Light: Deals crap damage to living or slightly less crap damage to undead. Yuck. Medium range ray.

Level 4
Dimensional Anchor: Well, only way you'll ever kill those outsiders. Medium range.
Dismissal: Basically amounts to a limited Will SoD. Close range. It's nice 'cause you can make it notably harder than normal spell of yours to resist by using stuff the target hates with the spell.
Poison: Fort Save-or-BeHurtBad. Meh. Touch range. Yuck.

Level 5
Greater Command: Multitarget Command that lasts until they make a save. Pretty useful, if high level. Close range, 30' between victims, mind-affecting.
Plane Shift: Everyone knows of the spells transportation capabilities, but as long as your target cannot Plane Shift, sending someone to say...Positive Energy Plane is a very good way of killing people. Basically a Will SoD with Touch Range.
Slay Living: Fort SoD with some consolation damage. Touch.
Symbol of Pain: Symbols are fun. Paint a bunch of 'em on some item, reveal it and watch opposition roll saves. Rubber balls are pretty nice, for example. Your armor is a good place too. This one is practically a SoS.
Symbol of Sleep: See above. Nice little slumberparty here. Though Mind-Affecting begins to be a problem on these levels.

Level 6
Banishment: Like Dismissal, except stronger.
Blade Barrier: Meh, it's a solid battlefield morphing ability that's also Ref-or-Take-Some-Damage. Not bad. Medium range.
Greater Dispel Magic: See Dispel Magic.
Harm: Fort or Take Damage. Meh. Fine for e.g. channeling tho. Touch.
Symbol of Fear: See Symbol of Pain. Basically SoL version. Annoyingly Mind-Affecting.
Symbol of Persuasion: See Symbol of Pain. Basically SoL version. Annoyingly Mind-Affecting.
Undeath to Death: Great for killing undead. Medium range 40' bunch.

Level 7
Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos: Boost your caster level and world will tremble. No-save death or at least be screwed depending on your CL. Only SR can save people here (and with your buffed CL, rarely).
Destruction: Fort SoD. Close range. Nice 10d6 consolation damage.
Dimensional Lock: Like Dimensional Anchor, except gotta somehow restrict opponent's movement, but it offers no save.
Symbol of Stunning: See Symbol of Pain, SoL version.
Symbol of Weakness: See Symbol of Pain, SoS version (most characters can't carry their stuff after that Fort-damage).

Level 8
Earthquake: A rather versatile offense spell that can be used to lock down opponents or such depending on terrain. Damage isn't impressive but the conditions it can impose, often without save, are. Also nicely stops activity while it's going. If DM says the save stops the Pinned-condition too, it becomes much worse.
Fire Storm: Deals a bunch of damage. Meh.
Symbol of Death: See Symbol of Pain, SoD version.
Symbol of Insanity: See Symbol of Pain, Will SoD version. Meh at mind-affecting.

Level 9
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Gate: Solars are good.
Implosion: Boom Boom. Kinda expensive, but at least it can kill multiple folks.
Field Alteration + Ally Generation:
Level 1
Obscuring Mist: Nice way to stop annoying targeted spells, archery and such. Gives melee full miss chance thoo. Limits yourself too tho. Personal range.
Summon Monster I: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 2
Darkness: Older version of Darkness. Touch range, can toss the object or such.
Summon Monster II: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 3
Animate Dead: Material components are kinda meh. Eternally usable and faithful underlings are pretty handy though, if you can afford them.
Daylight: Mostly when dealing with Underdark races, Undead and such. Touch like Darkness.
Deeper Darkness: Sorta like Darkness. Unfortunately, it's not as Dark as it should be. Fogs >>> Darkness. Touch like Darkness.
Stone Shape: I don't honestly need to state in how many ways morphing stone can be useful, do I? Touch.
Summon Monster III: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Wind Wall: Pretty nice especially in larger conflicts where large squads of archers are a concern. There are pretty few ways archers can by RAW shoot through this, though you could argue that big enough bows and force projectiles would.

Level 4
Control Water: Very nice when water is available for drowning places, killing waterbreathing creatures in shallow waters and such. Just, useful. Long range.
Giant Vermin: You shouldn't really bother with anything less than Gargantuans, but with CL buffs those are available pretty quickly and particularly Colossal Scorpion is very efficient even against CR 20 challenges as long as the area is thus that they cannot just fly away (you can help with that); they have very high Attack-stats and the poisons are extremely potent.
Lesser Planar Ally: Solid allies, even if it's expensive to call. Try to call 'em when it falls under the "strongly ties to creature's ethos"; that's free and the XP cost isn't really that major. And Outsiders are pretty darn good allies.
Summon Monster IV: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 5
Insect Plague: Swarms are hardy, but unfortunately not very damaging at this point anymore. The Distraction-function is handy, but beyond that it's not very good. Long range tho.
Summon Monster V: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Wall of Stone: One of Wizard's best battlefield control spells is no worse for Cleric. Isolate enemies, buy time, block entries, make death prisons, whatever. Reflex if used to encase people. Medium range.

Level 6
Animate Object: Unfortunately Animated Objects have horrible BAB and such so they don't hit much. The special attacks are somewhat usable tho. Generally best with Permanency. Medium range.
Antilife Shell: A very strong defensive buff, here because you can morph the battlefield with it. Living creatures simply can't approach the area around you. NO SAVE! 10' radius.
Create Undead: Some of the undead are very useful. This is an expensive spell, but as the undead can multiply, provided it's not against your alignment, this can be very very handy.
Planar Ally: See Lesser Planar Ally.
Summon Monster VI: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 7
Control Weather: Slow to cast, but great for demolishing armies, cities and such. Not quite as strong as the 5th level Druid-spell Control Winds, but much more versatile.
Repulsion: Like Antilife Shell vs. anything, but with Will-save to negate. I don't like it nearly as much.
Summon Monster VII: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 8
Antimagic Field: Magic's good, all that jazz. Also, Initiate of Mystra makes this the most one-sided, unfair spell ever. 10' radius (suggest Widening; see Rules Compendium for relevant stuff regarding rules on this, it always confuses people).
Create Greater Undead: See Create Undead.
Summon Monster VIII: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 9
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Gate: Solars are good.
Summon Monster IX: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Defense + Buff:
Level 1
Bless: Not amazing, but every bonus is a bonus. The more characters, the better.
Endure Elements: Eh, obvious utility.
Magic Stone: Handy buff for Sling-users. Note that sling is a solid ranged level 1 weapon for high Str types, being quite light, almost free and adding Str to damage.
Magic Weapon: Handy buff for anyone. If a bit small.
Protection from Alignment: Great buff, stops all mind control in addition to solid Deflection/Resistance.
Sanctuary: Obvious utility, you aren't attacking anyways, so... Also can be used to protect another, who's about to go down.
Shield of Faith: Touch-spell that grants nice Deflection-bonus to AC.

Level 2
Aid: Mostly just Bless with few additional Temp HP. Pretty weak beyond the first levels.
Align Weapon: Occasionally absolutely crucial with early opponents packing some pesky DRs.
Bull's Strength & al.: Handy early on.
Resist Energy: Great vs. casters and energy-based creatures and just environment.

Level 3
Magic Circle against Alignment: Like Protection, except area-of-effect and stops summoned creatures and such. Handy. 10' area.
Magic Vestment: One of the best buffs in the game, allows you to, especially in conjuction with Animated Shields and such, give everyone decent AC. Use with caster level boosters for early +5s all day.
Meld into Stone: Fine "Invisibility"-substitute that's not trumped by most spells. It's hard to detect your presence without heavy magical scanning.
Prayer: Short-duration Bless (with Luck-bonus tho) and a penalty to enemies. Meh.
Protection from Energy: Like Resist Energy except complete immunity to certain threshold. I prefer Resist Energy though sometimes, when taking huge blazing balls of fire, this is better.
Water Breathing: Too obvious.
Water Walk: Yeah.

Level 4
Air Walk: Obvious. Notably, you still walk so stuff depending on jumping and such should work normally. Nice duration, though not 1h/level. Touch.
Imbue with Spell Ability: Divine Favor is a nice one, for example. Personal spells in general.
Greater Magic Weapon: Like Magic Vestment, except for weapons. The nice part is that Clerics can buff their CL like crazy so you'll have +5s in the mid-teens. Close range.
Spell Immunity: Stuff such as Enervation and such is very solid to protect people from. Touch.

Level 5
Disrupting Weapon: Kills undead. Handy in Undead-heavy scenarios. With iteratives, it amounts to a whole ton of SoDs vs. Undead. Touch-range.
Spell Resistance: 12+CL is a nice amount, without cap, especially for a Cleric. It's Touch so it can be used to ward the entire party and it's nice 10 min/level (if it only were 1 hour/level...).
True Seeing: Too obvious.

Level 6
Mass Bull's Strength & al.: When you have hordes of servants/underlings/whatever, these can be worthwhile. Party will just buy gear.
Heroes' Feast: Extend it for 24-hour Fear-immunity and Morale-bonus to Hit and Will-saves. One is enough to feed the entire party and then some. Should be staple once you get it given the DCs of the fear auras some creatures have.
Wind Walk: Kinda like your version of Teleport. Nice travel-spell if actual Teleportation is not available.
Word of Recall: Solid replication of one function of Teleportation. Nice overall.

Level 7
Ethereal Jaunt: Decent escape spell tho only 1 round/level and Personal.
Refuge: Nice "Oh ****"-Contingency to give to e.g. party Rogue or someone else bound to get into trouble alone.

Level 8
Cloak of Chaos/Holy Aura/Shield of Law/Unholy Aura: Decent defensive alignment-buffs, though they unfortunately don't stack with common protective items. There's still the "successful attack requires will-save vs. Confusion" and multi-targeting going on for it tho. Again, very solid if you have unequipped underlings.
Greater Spell Immunity: Good for the same reason Spell Immunity is good.

Level 9
Astral Projection: You pay some for effective immortality, especially combined with Plane Shift. Basically, you create a clone of yourself, for which dying doesn't make any difference. It's great how Plane Shift is a level 5 spell for Clerics. Multitarget.
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Etherealness: Handy for bypassing places and spying on things and killing ethereal issues and so on. And for staying out. I don't like spending level 9 slots on this tho.

Psyren
2010-10-18, 10:45 PM
That's when you make an argument to your DM to create an Atheist Deity. :smallbiggrin:


create an Atheist Deity. :smallbiggrin:


Atheist Deity :smallbiggrin:

http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/mainscreenturnon4.jpg

Jobin
2010-10-18, 10:55 PM
A Player's Guide to Healing (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal) is pretty much a Must Read if you're interested in a healing character.


Don't forget that the most cost effective of healing outside of combat is a Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp for 11hp).

Also, you're a Cleric, not a healbot. You have lots of cool and powerful spells available to you so do some research and become the Tier 1 super-spellcaster that you're meant to be!

Thanks for the links and the encouragement lol!


I seem to have written some kind of an assessment on Core spells specifically with a Caster Cleric (as opposed to Warrior Cleric) in mind (note though, especially Spell Compendium [includes Complete Divine spells], Complete Champion and Player's Handbook II have other useful spells though - Clerics automatically know all spells on their spell list, so if you can, take a look). Figured it might be of use to you:

WOW tons of help! thanks again!

Akal Saris
2010-10-19, 12:25 AM
http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/mainscreenturnon4.jpg

That's the first time in a long while that one of those silly images that people post has made me laugh out loud :smalltongue:

An atheist deity...I could almost see it happen in D&D, especially as an archfiend or similiar non-deity who transcends. You go around trying to convince people that you and the other deities are just super-powerful outsiders, but people refuse to believe what you're really saying and just worship you even harder for your modesty. Or something.

Andion Isurand
2010-10-19, 03:24 AM
I would try to get a hold of the Mastery of Day and Night feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, pg. 125) which allows you to spontaneously maximize all your cure and inflict spells without a change in level or casting time. All it takes is 2 ranks Knolwedge (planes) 6 ranks Spellcraft and Maximize Spell.

gorfnab
2010-10-19, 04:05 AM
Here's some handbooks for the most used classes that can heal
Healer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=cmaqjtbaoiasklnp0b0bm71bc4&topic=6849.0)
Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)
Archivist Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3545.0)

holywhippet
2010-10-19, 04:19 AM
Isn't Ur-Priest campaign setting specific though? Not every DM will allow you to play with it outside of the proper setting. On top of that, not every DM will let you play with it just because the class is rather unbalanced.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-19, 04:37 AM
Isn't Ur-Priest campaign setting specific though? Not every DM will allow you to play with it outside of the proper setting. On top of that, not every DM will let you play with it just because the class is rather unbalanced.

Ur-Priest is from Complete Divine so it isn't campaign specific.

It is unbalanced for the benefits though.



http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/mainscreenturnon4.jpg



I don't think atheism is that strange of a portfolio for a god to have. Some of the official wotc portfolios are ridiculous, obscure or just plain strange. Examples include Stupidity , Climbing , Jewelry-Making , Scapegoats, Lichdom, Worms, Salt, Paucity, Caves and Numbers.


The Atheist God could be on a mission to destroy all other gods and eliminate the necessity of belief in gods. He could set his followers on a path of self-reliance while forging a world that has no need of gods any longer. His portfolio could include Entropy, Death, Evolution, Self-Reliance and Disbelief.

Urpriest
2010-10-19, 09:49 AM
I don't think atheism is that strange of a portfolio for a god to have. Some of the official wotc portfolios are ridiculous, obscure or just plain strange. Examples include Stupidity , Climbing , Jewelry-Making , Scapegoats, Lichdom, Worms, Salt, Paucity, Caves and Numbers.


Many real-life deities have similar portfolios. Well, except Lichdom, because most people don't interact with Liches on a regular basis.


That's actually the rub - you can't have a deity as an Ur-Priest.

The best you can manage is the adaptation, which lets you use a dead deity, but very few settings have non-evil versions of those.

False. You can't gain spells from a deity as an Ur-Priest, but nothing permits you from worshipping a deity just like a Fighter or Wizard does. For example, revere Olidammara for his mastery of theft, like your theft of divine powers. Be any alignment you want since you're not actually a cleric of him.

Psyren
2010-10-19, 10:20 AM
False. You can't gain spells from a deity as an Ur-Priest, but nothing permits you from worshipping a deity just like a Fighter or Wizard does. For example, revere Olidammara for his mastery of theft, like your theft of divine powers. Be any alignment you want since you're not actually a cleric of him.

Nice try, but check your loophole again. From Complete Mage:


Gift of the Divine Patron (Su): At 1st level, you gain a sacred gift of power from your divine patron (who is also the source of your cleric spells and, directly or indirectly, your warlock invocations).

The healing blast you proposed is one of the Gifts. If you are not actually a cleric of this deity, he can't be granting you gifts. If you are, you can't be an Ur-Priest.


The standard way around this dilemma is to use Ur-Priest's adaptation, which lets you worship a dead god; but in most settings those tend to be evil and/or Cosmic Horrors, keeping you from Healing Blast. Regardless, your method of merely paying lip service to a living deity while not being a cleric won't work.

Violet Octopus
2010-10-19, 10:48 AM
That's actually the rub - you can't have a deity as an Ur-Priest.

The best you can manage is the adaptation, which lets you use a dead deity, but very few settings have non-evil versions of those.
Hleid from Frostburn is fairly campaign non-specific, NG and was nearly slain, to the point where she's only recently been able to grant spells again.

Psyren
2010-10-19, 10:50 AM
Hleid from Frostburn is fairly campaign non-specific, NG and was nearly slain, to the point where she's only recently been able to grant spells again.

No go there either:



Special: Must worship a Chaotic or Evil deity

You need a CN or CG deity to get healing blast, and it has to be dead to let you be an Ur-Priest.

Most Ur-locks tend to be evil so they can avoid stepping into this quagmire.

Violet Octopus
2010-10-19, 11:04 AM
You need a CN or CG deity to get healing blast, and it has to be dead to let you be an Ur-Priest.
How frustrating. I like uldras and that would have made for a good character. One to keep as an NPC for when I DM, I guess.

jiriku
2010-10-19, 11:13 AM
Tyndmyr started a great thread on effective cleric healing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163082) a while back. It's got some really solid ideas in it.

Urpriest
2010-10-19, 12:37 PM
Nice try, but check your loophole again. From Complete Mage:



The healing blast you proposed is one of the Gifts. If you are not actually a cleric of this deity, he can't be granting you gifts. If you are, you can't be an Ur-Priest.


The standard way around this dilemma is to use Ur-Priest's adaptation, which lets you worship a dead god; but in most settings those tend to be evil and/or Cosmic Horrors, keeping you from Healing Blast. Regardless, your method of merely paying lip service to a living deity while not being a cleric won't work.

As an Ur-Priest you aren't a cleric. Your cleric spells can come from wherever they damn well please because there aren't any. Thus it's perfectly reasonable to say that your cleric spells come from your CN/CG Divine Patron. Since you don't get any cleric spells you aren't violating your Ur-Priest code.

Think about it this way: if the class were limited only to clerics it would say so in its prerequisites, it wouldn't bury it in the rules text. As is it requires divine spellcasting and turning, which can be gained by many non-cleric classes. If, for example, a Druid were to take this prestige class after a level in Sacred Exorcist, they would still gain the Gifts provided the god they worship referred to in the prerequisites has the requisite traits. The fact that they don't prepare cleric spells is irrelevant.

Psyren
2010-10-19, 01:46 PM
As an Ur-Priest you aren't a cleric.

I know, and that's the problem. You have to be a cleric to be an ED.
Certain types of clerics (i.e. those of dead gods) can also be UPs, but there is no way to NOT be a cleric and be an ED.

And rules text is rules text, whether it is buried or not.

If there is a CN or CG dead god in your DM's setting then go nuts with healing blast, but you can't just pick a living one, say "I like you, but I'm not actually your cleric!" and then get both Ur-Priest spells and Patron Gifts from them. For evil ones, Moander and Tenebrous both work.

Urpriest
2010-10-19, 02:01 PM
I know, and that's the problem. You have to be a cleric to be an ED.


Again, then it would spell that out in the prerequisites, like the Blighter does for Druids. Look, it's like when Dread Necromancers get turning "as a cleric". Sure, technically "as a cleric" means it's based on cleric level, which Dread Necromancers don't have. But this is a stupid interpretation. It's clear in such cases that the description needs to be generalized. In this case, if a being is granting you divine spells, it must be your Divine Patron. If there is no such being, your Divine Patron remains the being you worshipped to qualify for the class.

Ormagoden
2010-10-19, 02:02 PM
http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/mainscreenturnon4.jpg

Technically...


Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.

Psyren
2010-10-19, 02:13 PM
Again, then it would spell that out in the prerequisites, like the Blighter does for Druids. Look, it's like when Dread Necromancers get turning "as a cleric". Sure, technically "as a cleric" means it's based on cleric level, which Dread Necromancers don't have. But this is a stupid interpretation. It's clear in such cases that the description needs to be generalized. In this case, if a being is granting you divine spells, it must be your Divine Patron. If there is no such being, your Divine Patron remains the being you worshipped to qualify for the class.

I'm not basing it on "as a cleric," or any similar clause, so that comparison is irrelevant. ED specifically says that whatever being is your patron also has to be the source of your cleric spells. The only way an Ur-Priest can meet that requirement is via the adaptation (dead god) - the default Ur-Priest cannot. They don't even really cast cleric spells; they have their own list (CDiv 70) that just happens to have all the same spells as the cleric list. (Compare the wording to that of an Archivist.)

DNs are arcane (HoH 85) so they are irrelevant. And Archivists also do not gain spells from a deity (HoH 83.)


Technically...

You can be a cleric without a deity, sure. But you must worship a deity to be an ED, and that deity must be the source of your spells.

Urpriest
2010-10-19, 02:28 PM
I'm not basing it on "as a cleric," or any similar clause, so that comparison is irrelevant. ED specifically says that whatever being is your patron also has to be the source of your cleric spells. The only way an Ur-Priest can meet that requirement is via the adaptation (dead god) - the default Ur-Priest cannot. They don't even really cast cleric spells; they have their own list (CDiv 70) that just happens to have all the same spells as the cleric list. (Compare the wording to that of an Archivist.)

DNs are arcane (HoH 85) so they are irrelevant. And Archivists also do not gain spells from a deity (HoH 83.)


DNs being arcane is irrelevant to my argument. Again, ED specifies that your patron must be the source of your cleric spells. Similarly, the DN specifies that it Rebukes Undead as a cleric, which in turn means according to your reasoning its rebuking level is equal to its cleric level, which is zero. So it has a useless rebuking ability, which is silly. Thus, things like "cleric level" or "cleric spells" in contexts like this are merely shorthand for the other ways of using the ability/entering the class, some of which don't happen to have any granted spells at all, and thus ignore the above restriction. Again, if your interpretation is correct, why do Dread Necromancers have the Rebuke Undead ability?

Another consequence of your interpretation: nothing prevents a cleric from worshiping a different deity from the deity that gives said cleric spells. This may have RP restrictions, but consider a cleric of a pantheon. Since all members of the pantheon grant the cleric spells, the cleric could, by your reasoning, get into ED by worshiping a CE member of the pantheon, while gaining all of their Gifts from a LG member of the pantheon. The whole point of requiring worship of a chaotic or evil deity is to restrict your Gifts to that deity, which makes sense as the listed Gifts are made with the expectation that these are the available alignments. Your interpretation throws that out the window and allows characters to choose LG Divine Patrons, who aren't even supposed to countenance or support Warlocks.

Psyren
2010-10-19, 02:43 PM
DNs being arcane is irrelevant to my argument. Again, ED specifies that your patron must be the source of your cleric spells. Similarly, the DN specifies that it Rebukes Undead as a cleric, which in turn means according to your reasoning its rebuking level is equal to its cleric level, which is zero. So it has a useless rebuking ability, which is silly. Thus, things like "cleric level" or "cleric spells" in contexts like this are merely shorthand for the other ways of using the ability/entering the class, some of which don't happen to have any granted spells at all, and thus ignore the above restriction. Again, if your interpretation is correct, why do Dread Necromancers have the Rebuke Undead ability?

DNs are irrelevant period. Turning/Rebuking does not have to come from a deity, otherwise clerics of causes etc. wouldn't be able to do it.

Now, spells also do not have to come from a deity - except if you want to be an Eldritch Disciple, in which case they do. Full stop, RAW.


Another consequence of your interpretation: nothing prevents a cleric from worshiping a different deity from the deity that gives said cleric spells. This may have RP restrictions, but consider a cleric of a pantheon. Since all members of the pantheon grant the cleric spells, the cleric could, by your reasoning, get into ED by worshiping a CE member of the pantheon, while gaining all of their Gifts from a LG member of the pantheon.

1) Your gifts must come from the same deity (singular) as the one that grants you spells. That is RAW.
2) A deity is not a pantheon.
3) Even if you were right, and worshiping a pantheon allowed you to get spells from one and Gifts from another - that method would STILL bar you from Ur-Priest.

Malbordeus
2010-10-19, 04:53 PM
or you could be a binder, go urpriest, and then tenebrous apostle. and just to cut the headache caused by warlock out, you take the Touch of Healing reserve feat from the Complete champion, and do infinite healing up to half whilst loling around as a binder and a "cleric".

Urpriest
2010-10-19, 06:03 PM
DNs are irrelevant period. Turning/Rebuking does not have to come from a deity, otherwise clerics of causes etc. wouldn't be able to do it.

Now, spells also do not have to come from a deity - except if you want to be an Eldritch Disciple, in which case they do. Full stop, RAW.


Again, irrelevant. Please actually read the argument. Your entire argument is based on the fact that, despite the lack of "cleric who gets spells from a deity" as one of the requirements for the prestige class, it is required to gain the class features because said language appears in Gift of the Divine Patron. I'm arguing that it is a common WotC oversight to include phrasing in a rules element that precludes certain qualifying entities from getting its full benefits, and that this is clearly not the intended interpretation. Dread Necromancer is an example of this behavior. You seem hung up on the fact that the Dread Necromancer turns as a cleric, which is obviously irrelevant to my argument. It could have been described as turning as a Sacred Exorcist and the argument would be identical.



1) Your gifts must come from the same deity (singular) as the one that grants you spells. That is RAW.
2) A deity is not a pantheon.
3) Even if you were right, and worshiping a pantheon allowed you to get spells from one and Gifts from another - that method would STILL bar you from Ur-Priest.

Again, read the actual argument. By your reading, your gifts must come from the same deity as the one that grants you spells. But the deity that grants you spells need not be Chaotic or Evil, as that restriction only applies to the deity that you worship to meet the PrC requirements, and by your argument the deity you use to meet those requirements has nothing to do with your Divine Patron. But the whole Divine Patron system assumes Chaotic or Evil deities. Thus this is clearly not intended.

ranagrande
2010-10-19, 06:20 PM
Ur-priest may not be setting-specific, but it is campaign-specific. The ur-priest prestige class has a special requirement that anyone who enters it must be trained by another ur-priest. So if your DM doesn't already have ur-priests in the game, you can't become one.

Urpriest
2010-10-19, 06:26 PM
Ur-priest may not be setting-specific, but it is campaign-specific. The ur-priest prestige class has a special requirement that anyone who enters it must be trained by another ur-priest. So if your DM doesn't already have ur-priests in the game, you can't become one.

Quite true. The same applies to Wizards.

Seriously, yes, prestige classes that imply organizations should be vetted by the DM, as it is the DM's call whether or not a certain organization exists in his world. And saying "there are no Ur-priests" may be as important a declaration as "there are no Sarrukh".

Psyren
2010-10-19, 06:59 PM
Again, irrelevant. Please actually read the argument. Your entire argument is based on the fact that, despite the lack of "cleric who gets spells from a deity" as one of the requirements for the prestige class, it is required to gain the class features because said language appears in Gift of the Divine Patron. I'm arguing that it is a common WotC oversight to include phrasing in a rules element that precludes certain qualifying entities from getting its full benefits, and that this is clearly not the intended interpretation. Dread Necromancer is an example of this behavior. You seem hung up on the fact that the Dread Necromancer turns as a cleric, which is obviously irrelevant to my argument. It could have been described as turning as a Sacred Exorcist and the argument would be identical.

Calling the rules an "oversight" does not unwrite them or magically make them disappear. What is written is written. And if you want to argue intent you are definitely going to lose; ED was clearly intended to require an explicit patron deity for everything it gets. It even bases your Warlock powers off that figure ("directly or indirectly"), despite normal Warlocks not needing any connection with a deity at all.


Again, read the actual argument. By your reading, your gifts must come from the same deity as the one that grants you spells.

That's not "my reading." That's what the passage says. It's right there on page 53 in black and white.


But the deity that grants you spells need not be Chaotic or Evil, as that restriction only applies to the deity that you worship to meet the PrC requirements, and by your argument the deity you use to meet those requirements has nothing to do with your Divine Patron. But the whole Divine Patron system assumes Chaotic or Evil deities. Thus this is clearly not intended.

You are mistaken - the system does still work. It's possible to worship a Chaotic or Evil deity and access any of the Gifts. A CN or CG patron is what you need to get Healing Blast. Now, with the one step-rule you can't be an Ur-Priest "cleric" of a CG deity - but with a CN patron you can be evil yourself (CE to be exact) and satisfy Ur-Priest's requirement, so long as that entity is dead.

In other words; for your combination to work (Ur-Priest + healing blast), you need a CN dead god. I was pointing out for the OP that all the dead gods I know of are evil (barring the NG one quoted earlier in the thread) - therefore none of them are suitable. Simply picking a living god and saying "you're awesome but don't give me spells!" does not let you cheat the system.

Endarire
2010-10-19, 06:59 PM
OP: (Cloistered) Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX/ContemplativeX

Alternatively, Crusader4/(Cloistered)Cleric1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX/ContemplativeX

Urpriest
2010-10-19, 07:21 PM
You are mistaken - the system does still work. It's possible to worship a Chaotic or Evil deity and access any of the Gifts. A CN or CG patron is what you need to get Healing Blast. Now, with the one step-rule you can't be an Ur-Priest "cleric" of a CG deity - but with a CN patron you can be evil yourself (CE to be exact) and satisfy Ur-Priest's requirement, so long as that entity is dead.


Ok, again, you're missing the point. Where in the rules text, by your reading, does it link the god you worship (as opposed to the god who grants you spells) to your Gifts?

Jobin
2010-10-19, 11:42 PM
Oh my atheist god.... what did I start?

Psyren
2010-10-19, 11:49 PM
Ok, again, you're missing the point. Where in the rules text, by your reading, does it link the god you worship (as opposed to the god who grants you spells) to your Gifts?

I don't think we're going to have common ground if we define the word "worship" differently.

Endarire
2010-10-20, 12:15 AM
A discussion about religion and healing.

Game-wise, I still recommend my Ruby Knight Vindicator build.

PS: "Atheist God" is a contradiction.

Psyren
2010-10-20, 02:09 AM
PS: "Atheist God" is a contradiction.

Naturally, he doesn't believe he exists, and therefore refuses to accept worship or grant spells. Or conversely he does so and immediately implodes.

gorfnab
2010-10-20, 03:29 AM
I don't know if this has been stated but from reading the Adaptation part of the Ur-Priest in Complete Divine, couldn't an Ur-Priest worship a dead god? Or would this not work for Eldritch Disciple?

Urpriest
2010-10-20, 08:07 AM
I don't know if this has been stated but from reading the Adaptation part of the Ur-Priest in Complete Divine, couldn't an Ur-Priest worship a dead god? Or would this not work for Eldritch Disciple?

That's most of what the argument is about. The consensus is, yes, but you'd have to find CN dead god, of which there are few.

Or you could twist both RAW and RAI into an unholy amalgam of DM fiat, as I seem to be advising.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-20, 08:33 AM
Clerics are pretty much the best healers - and have the most versatility outside of healing, too. The fact that they can memorize any spell and spontaneously turn it into a Cure is hard to beat.

Eeeh. Depends, really. There's a lot to be said for Druids, Artificers, and others as healers.

Psyren
2010-10-20, 08:53 AM
Eeeh. Depends, really. There's a lot to be said for Druids, Artificers, and others as healers.

Don't forget Archivists! They get the best of both worlds (SNA a Unicorn, cast Vigor etc.)

jiriku
2010-10-20, 09:25 AM
Or, umm...cleric? Heals like a beast, without rules arguments or headaches. I mean, seriously, when you can DMM: Quicken a heal and throw of an augmented darts of life, anything that can deliver enough damage to outpace your healing is probably one-shotting party members and healing is moot anyhow because you should all be running. :smallbiggrin:

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-20, 09:30 AM
Clerics are pretty much the best healers - and have the most versatility outside of healing, too. The fact that they can memorize any spell and spontaneously turn it into a Cure is hard to beat.


Eeeh. Depends, really. There's a lot to be said for Druids, Artificers, and others as healers.


Don't forget Archivists! They get the best of both worlds (SNA a Unicorn, cast Vigor etc.)

Necromancers aren't bad either. Throw Tomb Tainted Soul on the party and you can do something like throw your party in a boosted negative energy Uttercold Assault wall of fire to heal them even as it roasts the enemy. You can go a long way by throwing out the silly stereotype of the healbot Cleric that's perpetuated by MMOs... because 3.5e has so much more to offer than that.

That said, choice bits for a Cleric healer are various defensive buffs, Close Wounds, Shield Other, Heal, Revivify, and Delay Death (the immediate action version in the SpC). And you can easily do all that while still crushing tiny men like grapes and breathing fire and frost and whatever, because Clerics are jacks of all trades like that.

http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w325/OneWinged4ngel77/Stereotype_Killer.png
(It gets better when she grows four arms with Girallon's Blessing and starts ripping people's faces off with her bare hands)

Seriously though, the goal of a "healer" shouldn't just be to get rid of HP damage. HP damage is a pretty narrow scope of the bad things that happen to D&D characters... they take Fort, Ref, and Will saves, negative levels, hp damage, various status effects, and sometimes even greater amounts of damage than they have hit points. I mean, when an Ettin comes down on your level 5 frontline melee guy and full attacks for 60 damage between his 4 hits (5 if the poor guy ate an AoO due to the thing's reach), you need to be able to do something about that. And Cure Critical Wounds just doesn't cut it.

And the best thing you can do is prevent all of that. Your utlimate goal shouldn't be to be a "hit points restorer," it should be to keep your party from the big fire below (or the shining gates above, as the case may be). That means that stuff like Shield Other (distributing potentially deadly force out amongst the party) or Delay Death (basically meaning that a person *doesn't care that much* that they have -100 hit points) are fantastic.

Kansaschaser
2010-10-20, 09:51 AM
Almost Unlimted Healing

To make a healer that can last all day, this is what you would need to build.

Incarnate 4 / Cleric 3 / Sapphire Hierarch 2

At level 9, you would be considered a level 6 Meldshaper and Cleric spellcasting at 5th level.

The Incarnate and Sapphire Hierarch are from the Magic of Incarnum.

Take the Touch of Healing feat from the Complete Champion. You will need to have access to the Law domain.

At the beginning of the day, you will need to make sure you select Lifebond Vestments as one of your soulmelds. This power allows you to touch another living creature and heal them for a maximum of 1 hit point per meldshaper level (at level 9, you will be a 6th level meldshaper). Each point of Essentia you invest allows you to transfer up to 5 additional hit points. You loose hit points equal to 1/2 the ammount you healed. (Example: If you heal an ally for 20 hit points, you take 10 damage.) You cannot use this ability on any creature more than once per hour.

During the adventure, you can heal allies for free with the Touch of Healing feat. It allows you to heal someone up to 50% of their max hit points. This includes yourself. For more healing, you can then use the Lifebond Vestments to give your allies additional healing. Then you can heal yourself back up to 50% hit points with your Touch of Healing feat.

All this can be done without casting any spells.

Once you have healed every party member back up to 100% hit points and you have yourself healed back up to 50% hit points, you can then cast a healing spell as normal to heal yourself.

Since this only takes 1 feat to accomplish, you are more than welcome to take many of the other healing feats suggested in this thread.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-20, 09:56 AM
Or you could just make a healing trap and carry that around with you to get infinite healing. Very cheap, doesn't use a feat or anything, and is Core Only. But meh, I usually decline to use such silliness.

Really, having unlimited free healing isn't that big a deal, since it's not really a very big expense to just get CLW wands or LV wands. Far more important is getting the party to survive the battle in order to be patched up afterwards without the aid of a True Resurrection.

Kansaschaser
2010-10-20, 10:01 AM
Or you could just make a healing trap and carry that around with you. Very cheap, doesn't use a feat or anything, and is Core Only. But meh, I usually decline to use such silliness.

Really, having unlimited free healing isn't that big a deal, since it's not really a very big expense to just get CLW wands or LV wands. Far more important is getting the party to survive the battle in order to be patched up afterwards without the aid of a True Resurrection.

It's true that getting the party to survive the battle is important. That's why my build requires very little spells and feats, giving someone the option to take other feats, spells, equipment that allows their companions to survive an encounter.