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ffone
2010-10-18, 09:14 PM
So, RAW, adding 'associate' class levels to a monster increase its CR by 1 per class level. Similarly, a PHB race or similar no-racial-HD race with class levels has CR = its class level (unless using 'NPC Classes'), with some races being a bit higher (drow are 1 higher, for example).

Is it just me, or do such NPCs tend to be way easier than similar 'purely monstrous' enemies? Whenever I DM, I feel like martial-class enemies that are all class levels seem much weaker than similar physical-attacking monsters with racial HD.

And when advancing monsters, 2-4 racial HD = +1 CR, depending on the Type, which generally gives a lot more than extra class levels (from the higher rate of bonus feats if nothign else), with some exceptions ("X to Y" abilities like 1 monk level on a high Wis monster).

Does it feel this way to anyone else? Maybe I'm no giving my NPCs effective magic items? (How do you determine the amount of money to spend on gear for an NPC with both racial HD and class levels?) Any suggestions?

Is the "Class level = Challenge Rating" rule based around the 'worst case scenario', like an NPC who likes to use save-or-die spells? High risk high reward tactics tend to be worse for the PCs, since they are expected to win most battles, and have to deal with curing things liker permanent blindness or negative levels. (Also, enemy casters can afford to spend all their best spells on 1 encounter instead of 5/day.)

(Ideally I'm looking for more specific insights than the GitP mantras of "the CR system is just totally broken" or "that's because physical attacking is so inferior to Tier 1 Casting that it's all noise" ).

AslanCross
2010-10-18, 09:27 PM
So, RAW, adding 'associate' class levels to a monster increase its CR by 1 per class level. Similarly, a PHB race or similar no-racial-HD race with class levels has CR = its class level (unless using 'NPC Classes'), with some races being a bit higher (drow are 1 higher, for example).

Is it just me, or do such NPCs tend to be way easier than similar 'purely monstrous' enemies? Whenever I DM, I feel like martial-class enemies that are all class levels seem much weaker than similar physical-attacking monsters with racial HD.

They also tend to have a lot of other abilities, such as Improved Grab, that help in melee combat. Of course, they don't get any versatility.

The thing is, these same monsters can hold their own in combat. A single NPC with PC classes, even if he's 5 levels higher than the PCs, can get into situations where he loses thanks to Initiative.



And when advancing monsters, 2-4 racial HD = +1 CR, depending on the Type, which generally gives a lot more than extra class levels (from the higher rate of bonus feats if nothign else), with some exceptions ("X to Y" abilities like 1 monk level on a high Wis monster).

I did notice that, but it seems to me that past a certain amount of HD, they get far TOO strong (disproportionate HP and attack bonuses). Of course, the way to totally cheat is to give unassociated class levels.


Does it feel this way to anyone else? Maybe I'm no giving my NPCs effective magic items? (How do you determine the amount of money to spend on gear for an NPC with both racial HD and class levels?) Any suggestions?

Is the "Class level = Challenge Rating" rule based around the 'worst case scenario', like an NPC who likes to use save-or-die spells? High risk high reward tactics tend to be worse for the PCs, since they are expected to win most battles, and have to deal with curing things liker permanent blindness or negative levels. (Also, enemy casters can afford to spend all their best spells on 1 encounter instead of 5/day.)

(Ideally I'm looking for more specific insights than the GitP mantras of "the CR system is just totally broken" or "that's because physical attacking is so inferior to Tier 1 Casting that it's all noise" ).

Well, I don't necessarily like loading my NPCs with lots of magic items that they will never get to use (or that the PCs will consider vendor trash). Class level = CR takes into account gear, class abilities (which are often said to be better than feats; for example, giving a Babau 5 levels of Warblade is going to give it far more options than 5 hit dice.

Eldariel
2010-10-18, 09:28 PM
Well, mantra or not, it really is a matter of the martial classes not being strong enough; I don't know in how many ways you can say it, but if X levels in class X give you small static bonuses, of course it's going to lose to a ton of HD from a monster with stats way better than the class X guy's. Generally you'll find that casters of given CR can match their CR simply on the back of spellcasting being a very worthwhile class feature, but martial classes basically gain very little compared to just giving them HD. A level X Fighter, while optimizable, honestly has very little beyond his HD & BAB. A monster of similar HD will be the same except with better physical stats. It's kind of obvious what's going on there, really. If you use stronger physical classes like ToB options, Frenzied Berserker and such, the class levels should weigh in more but using core martialists, they really don't live up to their CR.

Another important thing is to use their wealth mostly for consumables and items with reduced price due to limitations that are not going to be as big a problem for the NPCs for whatever reason (though this generates verisimilitude issues; why are NPCs equipping themselves differently than the PCs? Something to think about at any rate), since they have so little compared to the PCs; that's a huge difference in terms of power right there, as most of Core Martialists' power comes from magic items and an NPC of equal level is at a deficit there (so as not to overequip the PCs).


Yeah, your observation is mostly accurate in my experience. But if the martial classes were better, it wouldn't really be an issue.