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Drakevarg
2010-10-18, 10:11 PM
I've posted a number of threads in the last few weeks asking for advice with my campaign, and one of the frequent bits of info I've gotten is that I have a tendancy to throw tough monsters at crappy players. Not wanting to bring my players here, since that would limit my ability to drop campaign spoilers with impunity, I've instead decided to bring their characters here and see what you fine folks can do with them to make them suck less.

One fact that I need to get off the bat right away is that the starting rolls I use is 1d6 +8, rerolling if the total bonus is less than +2. This leads to fairly low-powered characters to begin with, yes, but it also means nobody will be rolling 7s. :smallannoyed:

Anyway, here's a list of the characters, giving name, race, alignment, class, ability scores, feats, skills, and (if they're casters) typical spells prepared. If you need further info, I'll happily give it.

I only allow material from the following books, so please limit advice as much:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Libris Mortis
Draconomicon
Complete Arcane
Complete Warrior
Manual of the Planes

With the exception of the following barred material:

Base Classes:
Bard
Monk
Warlock
Wu Jen

Prestige Classes:
Bear Warrior
Dirgesinger
Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis
Dracolyte
Dragon Lyrist
Enlightened Fist
Gnome Giant-Slayer
Halfling Outrider
Mystic Theurge
Pale Master
Red Wizard
Sacred Warder of Bahamut
Seeker of the Song
Shadowdancer
Stonelord
Sublime Chord
Thayan Knight
True Necromancer
Unholy Ravager of Tiamat
War Chanter

Skills:
Diplomacy
Gather Information
Intimidate
Use Magic Device

Feats:
Axiomatic Strike
Extra Invocation
Extra Spell Secret
Guardian Spirit
Draconic Breath
Draconic Claw
Draconic Flight
Draconic Heritage
Draconic Legacy
Draconic Power
Draconic Presence
Draconic Resistance
Draconic Skin
Transdimensional Spell

Anu Ra, CN Elf Druid 2
STR - 11
DEX - 11
CON - 12
INT - 13
WIS - 14
CHA - 9

Skills:
Handle Animal - 5 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Sense Motive - 3 Ranks
Spellcraft - 5 Ranks
Spot - 3 Ranks
Survival - 2 Ranks
Swim - 4 Ranks

Feats:
Endurance

Typical Spells Prepared:
0 - Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Light, Purify Food and Drink
1st - Speak With Animals, Entangle, Endure Elements

Erpo, LG* Human Hexblade 2
STR - 14
DEX - 10
CON - 10
INT - 9
WIS - 10
CHA - 12

Skills:
Hide - 4 Ranks
Move Silently - 1 Rank
Speak Language (Common)**

Feats:
Run
Stealthy

Hikari, NG Elf Ranger*** 2
STR - 12
DEX - 15
CON - 9
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 10

Skills:
Balance - 4 Ranks
Climb - 4 Ranks
Concentration - 5 Ranks
Handle Animal - 2 Ranks
Hide - 4 Ranks
Jump - 2 Ranks
Listen - 5 Ranks
Move Silently - 4 Ranks
Ride - 2 Ranks
Search - 2 Ranks
Spot - 3 Ranks
Survival - 3 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Toughness
Track (Class Feat)
Rapid Shot (Class Feat)

Kharn, CN Human Barbarian 2
STR - 14
DEX - 12
CON - 13
INT - 11
WIS - 12
CHA - 10

Skills:
Balance - 2 Ranks
Climb - 3 Ranks
Escape Artist - 2 Ranks
Heal - 2 Ranks
Hide - 3 Ranks
Jump - 2 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Survival - 2 Ranks
Swim - 2 Ranks
Use Rope - 2 Ranks

Feats:
Endurance
Diehard

Kyojin Kurosu, CE Elf Rogue 1/Cleric of Doresain 1
STR - 9
DEX - 16
CON - 11
INT - 9
WIS - 12
CHA - 11

Skills:
Bluff - 5 Ranks
Escape Artist - 2 Ranks
Forgery - 2 Ranks
Listen - 2 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Open Lock - 2 Ranks
Sense Motive - 2 Ranks
Slight of Hand - 3 Ranks
Spot - 2 Ranks
Survival - 5 Ranks

Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting

Typical Spells Prepared (Chaos, Destruction):
0 - Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance, Inflict Minor Wounds
1 - Hide From Unded, Detect Undead
1D - Inflict Light Wounds

Miyat Agar, LN Elf Samurai 2
STR - 14
DEX - 15
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 9
CHA - 10

Skills:
Climb - 4 Ranks
Jump - 4 Ranks
Listen - 2 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (Class Feat)
Two-Weapon Fighting (Class Feat)

Miyat Sanguis, LN Elf Samurai 2
STR - 14
DEX - 14
CON - 11
INT - 11
WIS - 11
CHA - 12

Skills:
Climb - 5 Ranks
Jump - 5 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (Class Feat)
Two-Weapon Fighting (Class Feat)

* Houseruled out the "nongood" requirement, since it seemed arbitrary and out of place.
** Characters in this setting are never innately bilingual (i.e., Elves only know Elven, not Elven and Common). Since Erpo was raised in an Elven nation, her first language was Elven, and due to her low INT she needed to spend skill points to speak Common as well.
*** Martial Variant from CW.

Galileo
2010-10-18, 10:19 PM
Sorry, I can't really comment on the character optimisation, but... 1d6 +8? Seriously? If you want to prevent anyone being stuck with a -2 modifier, use 2d6+6.

And may I ask why you bar those particular classes and prestige classes? None of them seem particularly absurd, except for the Draconomicon PrCs which are specifically designed for dragons, and actually nigh impossible to access before epic?

Rowsen
2010-10-18, 10:20 PM
Well, two are playing Samurai. That's a problem considering how terrible that class is. And just out of curiosity, why are Bard, Wu-Jen and Warlock banned? I can see why you'd get rid of Monk, but the rest aren't really broken or crippled. Seems odd.

Also, calling your players 'crappy' isn't the way to go. Are you sure you're using challenge rating appropriate monsters?

Drakevarg
2010-10-18, 10:21 PM
Sorry, I can't really comment on the character optimisation, but... 1d6 +8? Seriously? If you want to prevent anyone being stuck with a -2 modifier, use 2d6+6.

Hadn't thought of that, thanks. I'll use it for later characters. (And if I'm feeling particularly merciful, I might even let these ones re-roll ability scores.)


And may I ask why you bar those particular classes and prestige classes? None of them seem particularly absurd, except for the Draconomicon PrCs which are specifically designed for dragons, and actually nigh impossible to access before epic?

And just out of curiosity, why are Bard, Wu-Jen and Warlock banned? I can see why you'd get rid of Monk, but the rest aren't really broken or crippled. Seems odd.

Purely due to setting reasons. Same case with Monk.


Also, calling your players 'crappy' isn't the way to go. Are you sure you're using challenge rating appropriate monsters?

No, I'm not. Mainly because my campaigns have a significantly higher lethality rate than the default. It's more survival horror-oriented.

And by "crappy" I mean in the relativistic sense. They simply have no experience in optimization.

Rowsen
2010-10-18, 10:24 PM
Purely due to setting reasons. Same case with Monk.

Well, my advice is, ban Samurai. It's like letting a friend cut his hands off. Painful to watch, and if you're not a jerk you'd take away the saw/knife/hatchet.

Drakevarg
2010-10-18, 10:26 PM
Well, my advice is, ban Samurai. It's like letting a friend cut his hands off. Painful to watch, and if you're not a jerk you'd take away the saw/knife/hatchet.

Y'know, I keep being told this, but I fail to see why Samurai is any worse than, say, Fighter.

Galileo
2010-10-18, 10:27 PM
Because it is a Fighter, only with preset, lousy feat choices. That's pretty much it, really.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-18, 10:28 PM
Anu ra:
Why Speak with animals prepared (Wild Empathy lets you communicate in simple terms like move away, follow, etc)?

Erpo"
Run, Stealthy...:smallconfused: :smallmad:
What benefit is he assuming...

Kharn:
Diehard? Why? What about power attack.

Kyojin:
As a non-good, you can spontaneously cast inflict spells: why did you choose as a domain spell a spell you could already cast?
Are there a lot of undead that you need to hide from them?

Kerrin
2010-10-18, 10:29 PM
...one of the frequent bits of info I've gotten is that I have a tendancy to throw tough monsters at crappy players.
Part of the issue you're having could be that you refer to your players as crappy.

Personally, I think the DM and the players work together to play a game that everyone is enjoying.

If your players aren't good at optimizing then find out if they want to become better at it and if they do then help them learn about optimizing. If they don't enjoy optimizing but rather some other aspect of their characters then work together to meet both of your desires in a game such that is will be enjoyable for you all.

Drakevarg
2010-10-18, 10:36 PM
Anu ra:
Why Speak with animals prepared (Wild Empathy lets you communicate in simple terms like move away, follow, etc)?

Because he wants to be able to get more detailed information, I suppose. He actually used it last session, trying to ask a wolf why the local wildlife was attacking military patrols.

Unfortunately, that wolf happened to be an effigy and just attacked him. :smallsigh:


Erpo"
Run, Stealthy...:smallconfused: :smallmad:
What benefit is he assuming...

- She, actually.
- Hide/Flee from unstoppable doom monsters?


Kharn:
Diehard? Why? What about power attack.

I guess he just wants to be able to fight to the death, despite the fact that any scenario where that opportunity would arise would probably result in him dying too fast to make use of that.


Kyojin:
As a non-good, you can spontaneously cast inflict spells: why did you choose as a domain spell a spell you could already cast?
Are there a lot of undead that you need to hide from them?

- Kyojin is her surname.
- Probably because the spontaneous conversion was simply overlooked.
- The main plot is undead-focused, yes.


Part of the issue you're having could be that you refer to your players as crappy.

Oy vey. Death by poor word choice again. :smallsigh: I meant "unoptimized."

Galileo
2010-10-18, 10:38 PM
Kerrin has the right of it. If your players want to become better at optimising, all well and good. If they don't, and are comfortable with their style of play, then it may come off as rude if you take their character sheets for a bit, then hand them back saying "Okay, I've changed them so they're better now," so you either need to adapt your encounters to fit them, or discuss it with them and find a compromise.

And by the way, I wouldn't prevent my players from coming here simply so you don't have to worry about leaking spoilers. I recommend telling them there's a community dedicated to helping out players and DMs, and if they decide to take a look, ask them to avoid anything you've posted.

Drakevarg
2010-10-18, 10:40 PM
Kerrin has the right of it. If your players want to become better at optimising, all well and good. If they don't, and are comfortable with their style of play, then it may come off as rude if you take their character sheets for a bit, then hand them back saying "Okay, I've changed them so they're better now," so you either need to adapt your encounters to fit them, or discuss it with them and find a compromise.

I have no intention of changing anything without talking to them first. I'm just looking at the possibilities.

And I don't think they're so much comfortable with their style of play as they simply don't know any better. When I was at their stage, optimization simply never occured to me either.


And by the way, I wouldn't prevent my players from coming here simply so you don't have to worry about leaking spoilers. I recommend telling them there's a community dedicated to helping out players and DMs, and if they decide to take a look, ask them to avoid anything you've posted.

Fair point. I'll angst over it a bit and think it over. :smalltongue:

mootoall
2010-10-18, 10:48 PM
Honestly, two samurai are very ... bad. There's no other word for it. Fighter is a better class than Samurai. And that's saying something.

Run is an awful feat. Seriously. Just awful.

Rogue/Cleric with 12 Wis and 11 Cha? What? Firstly that's just a perplexing mixture of classes. A sneaky cleric isn't hard to make, and a UMD healing rogue isn't hard to make ... why is he mixing them?

Which Samurai version are you using? Oriental Adventures or Complete Adventurer? One of them sucks less.

TWF ranger is generally a better damage dealer than a ranged ranger, if only for the enchantments being better.

There are always skills to put points into besides Climb and Jump. These situational skills aren't where you should put limited skill points ...

Drakevarg
2010-10-18, 10:53 PM
Run is an awful feat. Seriously. Just awful.

And yet it's saved the asses of my players in past campaigns countless times. (Mainly because I didn't know about the "can only run a number of rounds equal to CON" rule.)


Rogue/Cleric with 12 Wis and 11 Cha? What? Firstly that's just a perplexing mixture of classes. A sneaky cleric isn't hard to make, and a UMD healing rogue isn't hard to make ... why is he mixing them?

- She.
- She started out as a Rogue. Then, when it came time to level up, it occured to her that the party really needed a Cleric. So she elected to take the position.
- There's no UMD. Plus, good luck finding a magic-mart in a zombie-ridden wasteland.


Which Samurai version are you using? Oriental Adventures or Complete Adventurer? One of them sucks less.

CW. You'll notice OA isn't on my book list.


TWF ranger is generally a better damage dealer than a ranged ranger, if only for the enchantments being better.

Maybe, but it also means getting within biting distance of nasty things.


There are always skills to put points into besides Climb and Jump. These situational skills aren't where you should put limited skill points ...

I agree. If this was a mostly wilderness campaign it might almost warrant consideration, but since it's not, it's not.

VirOath
2010-10-18, 11:00 PM
Okay, here is a breakdown on why Samurai is bad, bad and very bad.

First off, it is a fighter, but instead of fighter bonus feats, it gets preset feats, and not even full feats. TWF but only with Bastard ripoff and short swords, quick draw but only with mentioned weapons, Free weapon proficiency with said exotic weapon. But, considering it's a Katana and not a Bastard Sword, and it's not really a short sword he uses in his off hand, he might not get to use the Sunblade with those feats even, depending on how you read it.

So sub par feats, which goes double for low level since they impose attack penalties with little gain and can only be used with subpar weapons. But wait, there is more!

The Samurai, unlike the fighter, does get class features! Staredown! Awesome, save that it's a fear effect, and mind effecting, and based of Cha. So it's a class feature that is completely worthless against almost anything not humaniod, goes double in your campaign as undead are immune to both mind effecting and fear effects. And it's tempting players to go MAD by wanting to get a bonus to Cha to increase it's effectiveness.

But wait, there is more! Samurai get a Smite class feature at level three! Except, it's not smite as per the Paladin. The Paladin Smite adds the Paladin Cha bonus (Which would be good for Divine Grace) to the attack roll, and the Paladin level to the damage roll and gets their first smite at level one. The Paladin Smite isn't the greatest, but it scales damage up as it goes up levels.

Samurai Kiai Smite on the other hand is gotten at level 3, and gives only Cha bonus to Attack and Damage. No scaling, little bonus, and the big benefit to Smiting, which is to offset Power Attack Penalty, really can't be taken advantage of here as the CW Samurai is forced to TWF.

So Mind Effecting Fear Effect class features, a weak ass smite, forced TWF with a locked weapon selection (making a good portion of magic weapons not usable with class features), nothing to give some power to those extra attacks, and to top it all off they can't Multiclass and get a Code Of Conduct. This makes Fighter 20 Core Only look good.

Crow
2010-10-18, 11:01 PM
Why don't you just tone down the encounters.

Maybe your players enjoy their "crappy" characters?

Eldariel
2010-10-18, 11:01 PM
Here's what I can glean immediately:

- Yeah, 1d6+8 is definitely one of the issues. You've also banned the only class which can function entirely without use of ability scores (Warlock).

- You are playing on such a low level that most rolls are basically ability score comparisons. This exacerbates point #1 meaning they can take on significantly lower CR monsters than their level and numbers would indicate.

The stats on basically all of those characters are worse than Elite Array; they come out rather close to Non-elite Array which is a 15 pb and has the same average as alternating 10s and 11s in each stat. Indeed, Erpo is only 1 point above Non-elite Array, the stat array you'd normally use for Warriors and Adepts.

Most of them also have inconvenient spreads of all numbers being ~10-11, which isn't actually helpful at all since it doesn't grant any bonuses. This leads to characters' tertiary stats being just as good as their primary stats, which weakens the whole stat array notably. This leads to warrior types simply having really poor offensive numbers, and casters having relatively low save DCs (though they are definitely hit less severely).


Of course, they are also falling to several of the simple traps laid by the designers of 3.5:

- Samurai is basically the worst class in the entire game. It's a Fighter with feats chosen in subpar fashion. Luckily the game isn't going that high yet since so early on they are still basically Fighters with mediocre feats, but it will get more problematic if they somehow still survive. Barbarians and Fighters are notably better, of course.

- Elf is more or less the second-worst race in Core after Half-Elf (which gets absolutely nothing); while Dex is nice, Con is also really important making the trade off even at best. I'm sure many of them are drawn to it 'cause "OMG ELVES ARE AWESOME!" (something I happily sign myself, btw) but mechanically, they are lackluster at best.

The warrior-type Elves could be shown Wood Elf and Wild Elf from the Monster Manual (listed as Elf Subraces), which are much more suited to be warriors, and if any of your prodigal heroes ever plans on playing a spellcaster (*gasp*), Gray Elf is always an option too. Also, you could remind them that Halflings are cute. For example, Anu Ra has insanely good stats for this stat generation (14/14/13/11/9/9), but Elf immediately cuts one 14 down to size and strange allocation hurts more. As an e.g. Gnome or a Halfling, he could've easily gone Middle-Aged, picked up 15 Wis, 15 Con (or Dex), 12 Con (or Dex), 10 Int and then some poor stats. That would immediately be much more powerful.

- Endurance, skill-boosting feats and Run are all rather small-impact feats in combat. Run is pretty useless unless everyone has it (unless you intend on leaving your allies behind), Endurance again requires everyone to have it, and only ever comes up in long forced marches/dives/whatever you should really seek to avoid if at all possible anyways, and skill-boosting feats can be convenient but simply tend to give less bang for the buck than something e.g. useful in combat.

- Doesn't seem like they'd have very many Knowledge-skills covered. Knowledges are crucial (not to mention, incredibly obvious for RP since most characters should know something about their field) and having the party have at least one type to cover each Knowledge would help them so much.

- Warriors have steady power curve, casters have a limited number of bangs but those bangs can be incredibly powerful. The party could really use something like a Wizard or a Sorcerer; Grease, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc. It would add a lot of power to their repertoire.


Things they could learn:
- Use of items other than their primary weapon (and different primary weapons). This is split into multiple categories:

* Obviously, you should always keep a reach weapon handy if you're proficient. They (e.g. a Guisarme) cost next to nothing and are very, very useful in combat. Indeed, I'd usually suggest making one your primary weapon.

* Ranged weapons. Kite enemies. Initiate at a distance. Profit.

* At least one weapon of each damage type. You need to be able to overcome DR early on, especially with poor stats. Sling is a no-brainer, and simple Mace & Spear covers all damage types if your primary weapon is Slashing (as it appears to be).

* Alchemical items are very useful and simple things like caltrops which can be used to slow enemies down and setup encounters are convenient.

* Casters want to keep Scrolls around always, just in case they run out of spells before they can rest. Level 1 Scrolls cost 25 gp a piece; shouldn't break the budget.

* Oil and fire solve many problems.

* Darkness is a great advantage. Investing in a Bullseye Lantern to deny opponent vision while you see can be a huge tactical edge in dark interiors, and during nighttime, especially when cloudy

- Preparing spells you'll need. E.g. the Druid should really just stack up on Entangles right now; once he has spare slots, things like Speak With Animals can be very, very useful but as it stands, he only has 3 first level slots so they should all be filled to the brim with the premier combat spell he has access to.

- Preparing the right spells to cover a broad list of options. Bless could help immensely with such a melee-focused party. Detect Magic should always be available at least as a singleton. Protection from Evil is a nice spell. Mayhap simple Cause Fear for your Rogue/Cleric? Sanctuary definitely has its uses too.

- From what I've read in your other thread, they don't seem to scout very much nor have a very good tactical grasp of combat. They also don't tactically setup their camp with defense in mind; making a wall out of the tents and some other obstacles to bottleneck any possible adversaries could immediately help a lot. Simply finding some high ground would grant bonuses to attacking and using the terrain (not sure how detailed you're going but trees would be perfect against the automatons, for example, and any terrain level differences and rocks and such are tactically exploitable for cover, forcing opponent's movement and so on), Aid Another & using a mix of ranged, reach and melee weapons would just get them much better chances to hit and much more attacks compared to their opponents. Also, of course inherent combat options like Grapple and Trip should be utilized as possible though presently it seems like only the Wolf is able.



That's the simple stuff off the top of my head. How to convey them the information or if you even wish to is another matter entirely. Mentioning "if you had X..." a few times every now and then could help. Having each just read the PHB cover to cover could definitely help. Plain warning them against the Trap options might be a good idea.

Giving detailed terrain layout as they move and when in combat could certainly encourage tactical thinking. I hope they at least flank and charge and so on to gain To Hit bonuses?

And, of course, using a more standard roll or point buy would definitely help a lot. Characters that close to non-elite array simply aren't going to have that much bang for their buck, especially with so inconvenient stat spreads.

But again, what you do with this information is of course all up to you. I'm sure you can come up with something that'll make them more adept.

Drakevarg
2010-10-18, 11:06 PM
Why don't you just tone down the encounters.

Because then I would be bored and see no reason to continue the campaign. If I wanted generic heroic fantasy where every encounter was easy, I'd let someone else DM. :smallannoyed:


Maybe your players enjoy their "crappy" characters?

Maybe you should stop trying to convince me I'm a bad person. :smallannoyed: All I'm trying to do is make it more than four sessions without another TPK.


Here's what I can glean immediately:

- Yeah, 1d6+8 is definitely one of the issues. You've also banned the only class which can function entirely without use of ability scores (Warlock).

- You are playing on such a low level that most rolls are basically ability score comparisons. This exacerbates point #1 meaning they can take on significantly lower CR monsters than their level and numbers would indicate.

The stats on basically all of those characters are worse than Elite Array; they come out rather close to Non-elite Array which is a 15 pb and has the same average as alternating 10s and 11s in each stat. Indeed, Erpo is only 1 point above Non-elite Array, the stat array you'd normally use for Warriors and Adepts.

Most of them also have inconvenient spreads of all numbers being ~10-11, which isn't actually helpful at all since it doesn't grant any bonuses. This leads to characters' tertiary stats being just as good as their primary stats, which weakens the whole stat array notably. This leads to warrior types simply having really poor offensive numbers, and casters having relatively low save DCs (though they are definitely hit less severely).

So, definately give them the opportunity to re-roll with 2d6+6, then.


- Samurai is basically the worst class in the entire game. It's a Fighter with feats chosen in subpar fashion. Luckily the game isn't going that high yet since so early on they are still basically Fighters with mediocre feats, but it will get more problematic if they somehow still survive. Barbarians and Fighters are notably better, of course.

And if I made a few simple homebrew mods, like making Kiai Smite closer to Smite Evil?


- Elf is more or less the second-worst race in Core after Half-Elf (which gets absolutely nothing); while Dex is nice, Con is also really important making the trade off even at best. I'm sure many of them are drawn to it 'cause "OMG ELVES ARE AWESOME!" (something I happily sign myself, btw) but mechanically, they are lackluster at best.

The warrior-type Elves could be shown Wood Elf and Wild Elf from the Monster Manual (listed as Elf Subraces), which are much more suited to be warriors, and if any of your prodigal heroes ever plans on playing a spellcaster (*gasp*), Gray Elf is always an option too. Also, you could remind them that Halflings are cute. For example, Anu Ra has insanely good stats for this stat generation (14/14/13/11/9/9), but Elf immediately cuts one 14 down to size and strange allocation hurts more. As an e.g. Gnome or a Halfling, he could've easily gone Middle-Aged, picked up 15 Wis, 15 Con (or Dex), 12 Con (or Dex), 10 Int and then some poor stats. That would immediately be much more powerful.

Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings are all absent from this setting, but I'll look into those subraces.


- Endurance, skill-boosting feats and Run are all rather small-impact feats in combat. Run is pretty useless unless everyone has it (unless you intend on leaving your allies behind), Endurance again requires everyone to have it, and only ever comes up in long forced marches/dives/whatever you should really seek to avoid if at all possible anyways, and skill-boosting feats can be convenient but simply tend to give less bang for the buck than something e.g. useful in combat.

Given the hostility of the setting, Endurance would probably be a good pick for the party at large, though you do have a point with Run.


- Doesn't seem like they'd have very many Knowledge-skills covered. Knowledges are crucial (not to mention, incredibly obvious for RP since most characters should know something about their field) and having the party have at least one type to cover each Knowledge would help them so much.

Point. I do notice the party seems stunningly "uneducated." Most of them are essentially peasants, though.


- Warriors have steady power curve, casters have a limited number of bangs but those bangs can be incredibly powerful. The party could really use something like a Wizard or a Sorcerer; Grease, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc. It would add a lot of power to their repertoire.

Prior to the last TPK, Kharn's player was a Sorcerer, but switched because I encouraged everyone to play a notably different character as opposed to the same one with the serial numbers filed off.


* Obviously, you should always keep a reach weapon handy if you're proficient. They (e.g. a Guisarme) cost next to nothing and are very, very useful in combat. Indeed, I'd usually suggest making one your primary weapon.

Good idea.


* Ranged weapons. Kite enemies. Initiate at a distance. Profit.

As it stands, only Kurosu and Hikari have any ranged weapons. They'll have a few bows after the end of the current fight, though, given the almost certain death of a few of their NPC allies.


* At least one weapon of each damage type. You need to be able to overcome DR early on, especially with poor stats. Sling is a no-brainer, and simple Mace & Spear covers all damage types if your primary weapon is Slashing (as it appears to be).

They largely seem to be fond of slashing weapons. Indeed, I think that's all they have, except Erpo has a spoon with a sharpened handle that works as a piercing weapon. :smalltongue:


* Alchemical items are very useful and simple things like caltrops which can be used to slow enemies down and setup encounters are convenient.

They've got a few caltrops, I think. But alchemical items are hard to come by since they're habitually well away from civilization (either because civilization is somewhere else, or because it got eaten).


* Casters want to keep Scrolls around always, just in case they run out of spells before they can rest. Level 1 Scrolls cost 25 gp a piece; shouldn't break the budget.

Magi in this setting are legally required to be part of the Mages Guild under penalty of death or imprisonment. As such, any settlement with at least 100 people in it can be expected to have at least a few Level 1 Scrolls laying around.


* Oil and fire solve many problems.

Kharn's player's Sorcerer had this setup, but got TK'd before he could use it.


* Darkness is a great advantage. Investing in a Bullseye Lantern to deny opponent vision while you see can be a huge tactical edge in dark interiors, and during nighttime, especially when cloudy

They've mostly just been taking advantage of their Low-Light Vision. (Except for Erpo and Kharn.)


- Preparing spells you'll need. E.g. the Druid should really just stack up on Entangles right now; once he has spare slots, things like Speak With Animals can be very, very useful but as it stands, he only has 3 first level slots so they should all be filled to the brim with the premier combat spell he has access to.

Good pont.


- Preparing the right spells to cover a broad list of options. Bless could help immensely with such a melee-focused party. Detect Magic should always be available at least as a singleton. Protection from Evil is a nice spell. Mayhap simple Cause Fear for your Rogue/Cleric? Sanctuary definitely has its uses too.

I'll keep it in mind.


- From what I've read in your other thread, they don't seem to scout very much nor have a very good tactical grasp of combat. They also don't tactically setup their camp with defense in mind; making a wall out of the tents and some other obstacles to bottleneck any possible adversaries could immediately help a lot. Simply finding some high ground would grant bonuses to attacking and using the terrain (not sure how detailed you're going but trees would be perfect against the automatons, for example, and any terrain level differences and rocks and such are tactically exploitable for cover, forcing opponent's movement and so on), Aid Another & using a mix of ranged, reach and melee weapons would just get them much better chances to hit and much more attacks compared to their opponents. Also, of course inherent combat options like Grapple and Trip should be utilized as possible though presently it seems like only the Wolf is able.

Giving detailed terrain layout as they move and when in combat could certainly encourage tactical thinking. I hope they at least flank and charge and so on to gain To Hit bonuses?

I'll work on increasing the detail of the camp, but there's really not much they can do tactically; they all sleep in bedrolls except for one of the Samurai twins.

And no, no one's charged yet. Flanking yes, but only as an unintentional side effect of mobbing the closest enemy target.

Psyren
2010-10-18, 11:24 PM
So I see two samurai, a hexblade, and a druid with extremely poor stats. In fact, the highest Con score in their party is 13 on the barb.

If you're not willing to lower the difficulty, you need to at least let them have better tools.

Galileo
2010-10-18, 11:25 PM
Giving your players a challenge is one thing. Giving them encounters that come close to TPK half the time is another entirely. I really do think the remarkably low ability rolls are a large part of the problem, and you should seriously think about allowing them a reroll of their stats. If you're leery of lower than 8 ability scores, use either the 26 +6 I already suggested or point buy. Either cannot go below 8.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-18, 11:26 PM
I've posted a number of threads in the last few weeks asking for advice with my campaign, and one of the frequent bits of info I've gotten is that I have a tendancy to throw tough monsters at crappy players.

Having been one of those giving feedback, I would like to slightly correct that. Your players are not optimizers. This does not mean they are crappy. A good player is one that participates happily in the game, doesn't cause player conflicts, and which learns to play the game better. The fact that they don't know much about it now does not make them bad, just new at it.


Not wanting to bring my players here, since that would limit my ability to drop campaign spoilers with impunity, I've instead decided to bring their characters here and see what you fine folks can do with them to make them suck less.

I would suggest simply putting a "my players, keep out" on any threads here you want them to avoid. I know some people I play with visit here on occasion. Not really a big deal.


One fact that I need to get off the bat right away is that the starting rolls I use is 1d6 +8, rerolling if the total bonus is less than +2. This leads to fairly low-powered characters to begin with, yes, but it also means nobody will be rolling 7s. :smallannoyed:

It could easily lead to flat out gimped players. See, the highest any stat can be is 14, which isn't likely to appear on more than two stats(for a fortunate player). This results in a rather low point buy equivalent, and will invariably make your players die more than a more standard point buy would.



Allowed Stuff"
Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Libris Mortis
Draconomicon
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Manual of the Planes

With the exception of the following barred material:

Base Classes:
Bard
Monk
Warlock
Wu Jen

Prestige Classes:
Bear Warrior
Dirgesinger
Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis
Dracolyte
Dragon Lyrist
Enlightened Fist
Gnome Giant-Slayer
Halfling Outrider
Mystic Theurge
Pale Master
Red Wizard
Sacred Warder of Bahamut
Seeker of the Song
Shadowdancer
Stonelord
Sublime Chord
Thayan Knight
True Necromancer
Unholy Ravager of Tiamat
War Chanter

Skills:
Diplomacy
Gather Information
Intimidate
Use Magic Device

Feats:
Axiomatic Strike
Extra Invocation
Extra Spell Secret
Guardian Spirit
Draconic Breath
Draconic Claw
Draconic Flight
Draconic Heritage
Draconic Legacy
Draconic Power
Draconic Presence
Draconic Resistance
Draconic Skin
Transdimensional Spell

That's quite a ban list for so short a list of sources. I would suggest making it easier for your players to optimize by reducing the amount of house rules and banned stuff they need to consider.


Anu Ra, CN Elf Druid 2
STR - 11
DEX - 11
CON - 12
INT - 13
WIS - 14
CHA - 9

Skills:
Handle Animal - 5 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Sense Motive - 3 Ranks
Spellcraft - 5 Ranks
Spot - 3 Ranks
Survival - 2 Ranks
Swim - 4 Ranks

Feats:
Endurance

Typical Spells Prepared:
0 - Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Light, Purify Food and Drink
1st - Speak With Animals, Entangle, Endure Elements

This character can best be optimized by suiciding it over and over until better stats are obtained. A mere +3 bonus leaves him fairly underwhelming. His feat isn't awesome...but he's a low level druid. He'll take natural spell for level 6, and then he'll be able to shift. Until then, he needs to just hobble by. Unfortunately, this is among the stronger classes available.

His skills and spells are well chosen. I might drop purify food and drink for another CMW, but hey...thats cantrip selection. Not really a big deal.


Erpo, LG* Human Hexblade 2
STR - 14
DEX - 10
CON - 10
INT - 9
WIS - 10
CHA - 12

Skills:
Hide - 4 Ranks
Move Silently - 1 Rank
Speak Language (Common)**

Feats:
Run
Stealthy

Well, he's got well placed stats, that's for sure. However, they are terrible overall. A minimal +2. Suiciding would also be a viable tactic. His skill points are so few as to be a glaring flaw. Given that, stealthy seems to be an attempt to make up for this a bit. It's a reasonable reaction, as his party is so fragile that stealth is a viable tactic. Run is pretty poor, though. He would be better served by improved init, to allow him to curse as early as possible.


Hikari, NG Elf Ranger*** 2
STR - 12
DEX - 15
CON - 9
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 10

Skills:
Balance - 4 Ranks
Climb - 4 Ranks
Concentration - 5 Ranks
Handle Animal - 2 Ranks
Hide - 4 Ranks
Jump - 2 Ranks
Listen - 5 Ranks
Move Silently - 4 Ranks
Ride - 2 Ranks
Search - 2 Ranks
Spot - 3 Ranks
Survival - 3 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Toughness
Track (Class Feat)
Rapid Shot (Class Feat)

He is built well. I might focus some skill points, but it's a minor point. Imp Toughness is good long term, considering the lack of con. It'll scale better than toughness.


Kharn, CN Human Barbarian 2
STR - 14
DEX - 12
CON - 13
INT - 11
WIS - 12
CHA - 10

Skills:
Balance - 2 Ranks
Climb - 3 Ranks
Escape Artist - 2 Ranks
Heal - 2 Ranks
Hide - 3 Ranks
Jump - 2 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Survival - 2 Ranks
Swim - 2 Ranks
Use Rope - 2 Ranks

Feats:
Endurance
Diehard

Diehard is awesome at low levels. Staying functional for 10 hp, while toughness gives you only 3. Dangerous, sure...but definitely beneficial for the party. Endurance is not great, but it's a prereq for diehard. Presumably this is what the other char with endurance is aiming for as well.

This char is also built fine.


Kyojin Kurosu, CE Elf Rogue 1/Cleric of Doresain 1
STR - 9
DEX - 16
CON - 11
INT - 9
WIS - 12
CHA - 11

Skills:
Bluff - 5 Ranks
Escape Artist - 2 Ranks
Forgery - 2 Ranks
Listen - 2 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Open Lock - 2 Ranks
Sense Motive - 2 Ranks
Slight of Hand - 3 Ranks
Spot - 2 Ranks
Survival - 5 Ranks

Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting

Typical Spells Prepared (Chaos, Destruction):
0 - Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance, Inflict Minor Wounds
1 - Hide From Unded, Detect Undead
1D - Inflict Light Wounds

Miyat Agar, LN Elf Samurai 2
STR - 14
DEX - 15
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 9
CHA - 10

Skills:
Climb - 4 Ranks
Jump - 4 Ranks
Listen - 2 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (Class Feat)
Two-Weapon Fighting (Class Feat)

Miyat Sanguis, LN Elf Samurai 2
STR - 14
DEX - 14
CON - 11
INT - 11
WIS - 11
CHA - 12

Skills:
Climb - 5 Ranks
Jump - 5 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (Class Feat)
Two-Weapon Fighting (Class Feat)

* Houseruled out the "nongood" requirement, since it seemed arbitrary and out of place.
** Characters in this setting are never innately bilingual (i.e., Elves only know Elven, not Elven and Common). Since Erpo was raised in an Elven nation, her first language was Elven, and due to her low INT she needed to spend skill points to speak Common as well.
*** Martial Variant from CW.

Yeah, Im done reviewing. The problem is not the character builds. The problem is the rules under which they are required to make the characters. It feels like they have received a ridiculous amount of nerfs, and you then throw them against massively over-CRed encounters consisting of advanced, template stacked mobs, then wonder why they die.

I strongly suggest you play D&D 3.5 normally before modifying it so heavily. It will give you more experience to know what to modify.



Because then I would be bored and see no reason to continue the campaign. If I wanted generic heroic fantasy where every encounter was easy, I'd let someone else DM. :smallannoyed:

D&D is a heroic fantasy system. That's what it is. You are using a nailgun as a hammer, and being surprised that you're taking nails to the face. There are a great number of systems out there. Your players are new to roleplaying anyhow. Use one that's designed for what you want to do, and it will be far less problematic.

Additionally, heroic fantasy is a thematic choice. The players are heroic, but the villains are powerful. It need not mean that the encounters are easy. And it need not mean the game sessions are without challenge.


Maybe you should stop trying to convince me I'm a bad person. :smallannoyed: All I'm trying to do is make it more than four sessions without another TPK.

Thats not what he said at all. However, the language you use when you refer to your players is indicative of a potential issue. Sure, plenty of us joke about those we game with, but I'd suggest you consider things like calling them crappy in the context of if they were browsing this forum. If that'd be the kind of thing they'd take as good natured ribbing, fine. If it'd make them unhappy, then I recommend not doing that. For all you know, they could be browsing.

jiriku
2010-10-18, 11:29 PM
Anu Ra should drop Endurance in favor of Extend Spell, with the expectation of taking Sculpt Spell at level 3. Drop the ranks spent on Spellcraft and Survival to increase the other skills to 5 ranks each - Spot is especially useful and should always be kept at maximum. For the prepared spells, discontinue endure elements in favor of faerie fire.

Erpo is basically a loss and can't be made effective. I recommend rebuilding him completely as a rogue 2, so he can at least be stealthy without having to throw away his feat slots on the task. Re-rolling as a rogue would also give him a crack at the Use Magic Device skill, which will probably make him a better "caster" than a hexblade. If you want to try to redeem the hexblade build, give up on stealth, change his skill selection to Concentration 5, and choose Combat Casting and Power Attack. He is still dead weight, but at least he'll be dead weight that's trying in the right direction.

Hikari is in a pretty good position. Drop the ranks spent on Handle Animal, Jump, and Ride, then use those points to max out Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival. If Erpo rebuilds as a rogue, then also drop the 2 ranks spend on Search and invest them in Balance and Climb.

Kharn should drop Endurance and Diehard and replace them with Power Attack and Cleave. Drop the ranks spent in Escape Artist, Survival, and Use Rope, and use them to max out Hide, Move Silently, and Climb.

Kurosu should drop the Chaos domain and pick up the Hunger domain (the bite attack combos well with his TWF plan). Obviously, he wants to pick up Weapon Finesse at level 3. He should drop Listen, Sleight of Hand, Spot, and Survival in order to improve Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Sense Motive.

Agar and Sanguis are a loss. Really, they can't be made effective. If you want to pretend that they can, you should drop Jump/Listen in favor of Intimidate 5. They should both look to go into the traditional samurai demoralize/lockdown build as they advance.

The overall result of these changes, if you follow all of them are respec Erpo as a rogue, is that five of the seven PCs will be proficient in stealth, enabling all sorts of clever tactics that can overcome their weak stats and limited mechanical benefits. They'll also be well-positioned for some good feat choices at level 3, which should considerably improve their effectiveness. It's still a weak group with few options (to put it generously), but at least with each character more tightly focused on its strengths, they'll do what they do reasonably effectively.

Drakevarg
2010-10-18, 11:31 PM
Giving your players a challenge is one thing. Giving them encounters that come close to TPK half the time is another entirely. I really do think the remarkably low ability rolls are a large part of the problem, and you should seriously think about allowing them a reroll of their stats. If you're leery of lower than 8 ability scores, use either the 26 +6 I already suggested or point buy. Either cannot go below 8.

Yeah, I've definately decided to allow the 2d6+6 reroll.


Anu Ra should drop Endurance in favor of Extend Spell, with the expectation of taking Sculpt Spell at level 3. Drop the ranks spent on Spellcraft and Survival to increase the other skills to 5 ranks each - Spot is especially useful and should always be kept at maximum. For the prepared spells, discontinue endure elements in favor of faerie fire.

Currently he needs endure elements because he couldn't be bothered to buy a damn coat.


Erpo is basically a loss and can't be made effective. I recommend rebuilding him completely as a rogue 2, so he can at least be stealthy without having to throw away his feat slots on the task. Re-rolling as a rogue would also give him a crack at the Use Magic Device skill, which will probably make him a better "caster" than a hexblade. If you want to try to redeem the hexblade build, give up on stealth, change his skill selection to Concentration 5, and choose Combat Casting and Power Attack. He is still dead weight, but at least he'll be dead weight that's trying in the right direction.

Use Magic Device is barred, but in terms of keeping the character concept I might encourage her to aim for Arcane Trickster as a Rogue/Wizard.


Hikari is in a pretty good position. Drop the ranks spent on Handle Animal, Jump, and Ride, then use those points to max out Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival. If Erpo rebuilds as a rogue, then also drop the 2 ranks spend on Search and invest them in Balance and Climb.

Hikari is one of the more veteran players. Good to know that her experience with 2e crosses over somewhat to 3.5.


Kharn should drop Endurance and Diehard and replace them with Power Attack and Cleave. Drop the ranks spent in Escape Artist, Survival, and Use Rope, and use them to max out Hide, Move Silently, and Climb.

Kharn, both as a character and a player, really doesn't strike me as the stealthy type.


Kurosu should drop the Chaos domain and pick up the Hunger domain (the bite attack combos well with his TWF plan). Obviously, he wants to pick up Weapon Finesse at level 3. He should drop Listen, Sleight of Hand, Spot, and Survival in order to improve Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Sense Motive.

I'll suggest as much. I don't think she even looked at Libris Mortis during her spell selection, TBH.


Agar and Sanguis should drop Jump/Listen in favor of Intimidate 5. They should both look to go into the traditional samurai demoralize/lockdown build as they advance.

Given what I've heard, Samurai doesn't really give much options BESIDES the "traditional" one.

jiriku
2010-10-18, 11:41 PM
Giving them all a set of rerolls at 2d6+6, arrange stats to choice, will improve these characters considerably.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-18, 11:46 PM
Giving them all a set of rerolls at 2d6+6, arrange stats to choice, will improve these characters considerably.

Yeah. There's only so much optimization can do. With terrible stats, a limited sourcebook selection, a heavy ban list, and horrible homebrewed side effects to spells, options are extremely limited.

Im not surprised that stealth, hp and running away, normally less valuable options for the classes that are taking them, are more highly valued. After all, it's not like one more well spent feat is going to turn them from a waste of space to a competent fighter. They might as well try to be the one that doesn't die this time.

Tavar
2010-10-18, 11:48 PM
Given what I've heard, Samurai doesn't really give much options BESIDES the "traditional" one.

Not really. It gives the pop-culture view of the samurai, one based on samurai after the unification of Japan, where they became more concerned with dueling than fighting wars. An earlier version would mainly use the spear and bow, with an emphasis on mounted combat. Plus, even the version they give is highly distorted(dual wielding wasn't common, for starters).

Eldariel
2010-10-19, 12:03 AM
And if I made a few simple homebrew mods, like making Kiai Smite closer to Smite Evil?

Even then; Smite Evil is too few times per day to truly be a worthwhile ability. Paladins' power comes from Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, mount and spells mostly.

Just point them towards Fighter. Mention that Fighter can just as well be a Samurai, but one that can actually be historically accurate (they did not two-weapon fight, and it's not a terribly good idea for a heavy armor warrior type in any case). Also remember that most of their mid-level abilities are Intimidate-based; a skill you've removed. Really, I'd just throw Fighter at them. Ban the Samurai alongside the Monk; it'll work out rather well.


Given the hostility of the setting, Endurance would probably be a good pick for the party at large, though you do have a point with Run.

Endurance is hardly optimal even then, because it's only a +4 bonus on rolls that are essentially saving throws; it will probably extend the distance they can cover by a roll or two but that's not certain as it falls to the dice. Again, that kinds of rolls are the ones you don't want to be rolling since rolling poorly on them just kinda ****s you over and there's always nat 1.

Not to mention, feat slots are precious. Most of the characters have 1. Spending it on something as situational as Endurance just doesn't really work. Even something like Weapon Focus would be way, way more useful, as they need to hit their opponents.


Point. I do notice the party seems stunningly "uneducated." Most of them are essentially peasants, though.

Yeah. But they do decide their own background, right? And even peasants (they're all literate, after all) can at least know quite a bit about the nature, given they tend to live amidst it. And some K: Geography isn't at all wasted. Though definitely needs something like a Cleric with K: Religion & The Planes, Ranger with K: Dungeoneering and someone with K: Arcane to cover some information on the more arcane monsters (since those are the ones you need info like "They are resistant to slashing weapons!" and "They are actually constructs!" on).


Prior to the last TPK, Kharn's player was a Sorcerer, but switched because I encouraged everyone to play a notably different character as opposed to the same one with the serial numbers filed off.

Yeah; well, that's lead to few problems it seems 'cause now you have exactly two casters one of which has one level in the casting class. Trying to keep the balance of the different class roles could help tremendously.


As it stands, only Kurosu and Hikari have any ranged weapons. They'll have a few bows after the end of the current fight, though, given the almost certain death of a few of their NPC allies.

Yeah. Reminding them to pick up Slings (those things are free) is definitely something to do though. I'd never leave home without a Sling in D&D. It's a ranged weapon and it's bludgeoning. Bullets weight but you can use rocks if necessary.


They largely seem to be fond of slashing weapons. Indeed, I think that's all they have, except Erpo has a spoon with a sharpened handle that works as a piercing weapon. :smalltongue:

Yeah... DR is gonna be a problem :smallbiggrin: With so many martial types, branching out in the weapon selection would definitely be a good idea.


They've got a few caltrops, I think. But alchemical items are hard to come by since they're habitually well away from civilization (either because civilization is somewhere else, or because it got eaten).

Makes sense. Still, given the chance, they should try and acquire some. I had a level 4 Wizard whose primary attack was Alchemist's Fire. Deals nice damage (also had a level of Rogue so he was Sneak Attacking with 'em) and is a convenient touch attack. Tanglefoots and Thunderstones act as save-or-X effects actually so they're even better.


Kharn's player's Sorcerer had this setup, but got TK'd before he could use it.

Meh. But really, simple torch will do.


I'll work on increasing the detail of the camp, but there's really not much they can do tactically; they all sleep in bedrolls except for one of the Samurai twins.

Well, they can build their camp in a way that's tactically relevant. After all, they're in hostile wilderness; they should always be prepared to defend themselves. Maybe creating small trap around it too? Shouldn't be too hard with something expendable and could definitely make defending easier if necessary.


And no, no one's charged yet. Flanking yes, but only as an unintentional side effect of mobbing the closest enemy target.

Yeah, combat modifiers are something they'd really want to know. Flanking, High Ground, Charge, Prone, etc. can make a huge difference.


This character can best be optimized by suiciding it over and over until better stats are obtained. A mere +3 bonus leaves him fairly underwhelming. His feat isn't awesome...but he's a low level druid. He'll take natural spell for level 6, and then he'll be able to shift. Until then, he needs to just hobble by. Unfortunately, this is among the stronger classes available.

His skills and spells are well chosen. I might drop purify food and drink for another CMW, but hey...thats cantrip selection. Not really a big deal.

Actually, his stats are the best of the bunch. 14/14/13/11/9/9; very easy to optimize. Just, it so happens he took a Dex bonus race and placed 9 in there. No, don't ask me, I didn't build it.


Currently he needs endure elements because he couldn't be bothered to buy a damn coat.

Ergh. Every adventurer should at least have an Explorer's Outfit. Every one. Heck, PHB says the first outfit is free and doesn't weigh anything. Then Cold-Weather Outfit and Winter Blanket seem like a near must too. It's just...next you'll tell me they have no rope or something?

The Mentalist
2010-10-19, 12:30 AM
next you'll tell me they have no rope or something?

BLASPHEMY!!

Kudaku
2010-10-19, 12:31 AM
PICNIP...

(Too short)

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 12:32 AM
Even then; Smite Evil is too few times per day to truly be a worthwhile ability. Paladins' power comes from Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, mount and spells mostly.

Just point them towards Fighter. Mention that Fighter can just as well be a Samurai, but one that can actually be historically accurate (they did not two-weapon fight, and it's not a terribly good idea for a heavy armor warrior type in any case). Also remember that most of their mid-level abilities are Intimidate-based; a skill you've removed. Really, I'd just throw Fighter at them. Ban the Samurai alongside the Monk; it'll work out rather well.

I very well may do that.


Endurance is hardly optimal even then, because it's only a +4 bonus on rolls that are essentially saving throws; it will probably extend the distance they can cover by a roll or two but that's not certain as it falls to the dice. Again, that kinds of rolls are the ones you don't want to be rolling since rolling poorly on them just kinda ****s you over and there's always nat 1.

Not to mention, feat slots are precious. Most of the characters have 1. Spending it on something as situational as Endurance just doesn't really work. Even something like Weapon Focus would be way, way more useful, as they need to hit their opponents.

Point.


Yeah. But they do decide their own background, right? And even peasants (they're all literate, after all) can at least know quite a bit about the nature, given they tend to live amidst it. And some K: Geography isn't at all wasted. Though definitely needs something like a Cleric with K: Religion & The Planes, Ranger with K: Dungeoneering and someone with K: Arcane to cover some information on the more arcane monsters (since those are the ones you need info like "They are resistant to slashing weapons!" and "They are actually constructs!" on).

True. The fact that the Ranger with Favored Enemy: Undead doesn't know that zombies have DR is a bit odd. :smallconfused:


Yeah... DR is gonna be a problem :smallbiggrin: With so many martial types, branching out in the weapon selection would definitely be a good idea.

I'd be willing to be at least Kharn is willing to tote around a spare warhammer. :smallamused:


Ergh. Every adventurer should at least have an Explorer's Outfit. Every one. Heck, PHB says the first outfit is free and doesn't weigh anything. Then Cold-Weather Outfit and Winter Blanket seem like a near must too. It's just...next you'll tell me they have no rope or something?

No, they've got rope. Especially after I made the Samurai twins (who play their characters with Irish accents) to watch Boondock Saints. :smallamused:

It's just that the Druid just runs about with naught but Cleric Vestments on. :smallannoyed: And Studded Leather, too, I suppose.

Eldariel
2010-10-19, 12:34 AM
No, they've got rope. Especially after I made the Samurai twins (who play their characters with Irish accents) to watch Boondock Saints. :smallamused:

It's just that the Druid just runs about with naught but Cleric Vestments on. :smallannoyed: And Studded Leather, too, I suppose.

...so The Guy Who Is Basically The Avatar Of Nature doesn't know it can be cold outside *headdesk*

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 12:41 AM
...so The Guy Who Is Basically The Avatar Of Nature doesn't know it can be cold outside *headdesk*

Well, he did kind of play the dude as a stoner for the first level... having everyone he knew eaten by the undead kinda kicked the habit for him though. I think his reasoning was "eh, I've got endure elements for that."

Eldariel
2010-10-19, 12:42 AM
Well, he did kind of play the dude as a stoner for the first level... having everyone he knew eaten by the undead kinda kicked the habit for him though. I think his reasoning was "eh, I've got endure elements for that."

...Wisdom 14, Intelligence 13, Elf, stoner does...not...compute...

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 12:43 AM
...Wisdom 14, Intelligence 13, Elf, does...not...compute...

Let's just say the player's stats are lower than that and leave it there. :smallsigh:

Lev
2010-10-19, 12:44 AM
And by "crappy" I mean in the relativistic sense. They simply have no experience in optimization.
If a horse isn't drinking sometimes they just ain't thirsty.

Sounds like your approach is a lil blunt to the players spec, either tone it down, alter it to suit the players, or kill your players off and tell em to l2cheez.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:01 AM
If a horse isn't drinking sometimes they just ain't thirsty.

And sometimes it doesn't see any water.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-19, 01:03 AM
Do your players want to play in a horror game or is that just what you want to run?

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:22 AM
Do your players want to play in a horror game or is that just what you want to run?

They don't not want to play a horror game... as I've told them, "I'm an evil, sadistic bastard... but if you didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't keep showing up." :smallamused:

Mystic Muse
2010-10-19, 01:23 AM
They don't not want to play a horror game... as I've told them, "I'm an evil, sadistic bastard... but if you didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't keep showing up." :smallamused:

Okay. Just making sure. When I hear the reaction to one of your enemies is "Aww can we keep them" I just get the impression that they aren't getting it or are trying to play a different game than the one you're DMing.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:28 AM
Okay. Just making sure. When I hear the reaction to one of your enemies is "Aww can we keep them" I just get the impression that they aren't getting it or are trying to play a different game than the one you're DMing.

Well, that's largely Kurosu and she's... odd. The fact that the Big Bad is her father doesn't help in the mental stability department.

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 01:29 AM
They don't not want to play a horror game... as I've told them, "I'm an evil, sadistic bastard... but if you didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't keep showing up." :smallamused:

Actually, the number of people I've seen put up with so much stuff they didn't like without knowing things could be different tends to make me discredit this.

Not that I'm saying your games are bad, but sometimes people aren't on the same page, so they aren't really working towards the same goal.

Who ought to change in your situation? I don't know, but just coming to the game isn't something I can say with absolute surety means the problem isn't there.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:34 AM
Actually, the number of people I've seen put up with so much stuff they didn't like without knowing things could be different tends to make me discredit this.

Not that I'm saying your games are bad, but sometimes people aren't on the same page, so they aren't really working towards the same goal.

Who ought to change in your situation? I don't know, but just coming to the game isn't something I can say with absolute surety means the problem isn't there.

Well, it's not like I'm the only DM in town. Miyat Agar's player even expressed interest in running a campaign last week. I know I'd like to let go of the reigns once in a while. I'm probably gonna get grey hairs by age 20 doing this. :smalltongue:

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 01:51 AM
Yes, but it's just not as simple as saying "Well, they show up, there can't be any dissonance going on" at least in my experience.

TheThan
2010-10-19, 01:55 AM
Your problem is pretty obvious; your players are making sub-standard characters with piss-poor stats. In Addition to this, it looks like your players are either very new to the game or not heavily into the gamest portion of the game. I mean, the druid alone should be owning CR appropriate encounters, due to his animal companion and summon nature’s ally spells.

So my simple advice is to not only let them remake their stats (which I believe you said you would do), but also to tone the difficulty of the monsters they’re fighting down. You can do this by running lower CR monsters, or b simply fudging some dice here and there, turn a killing blow into a near hit, or nat 20 on a save into a nat 1.

I can’t really give you any more advice without actually being at your table. But something else I noticed is that from your tone, you seem a bit hostile to your players, maybe your just frustrated, I really can’t tell. My advice is try to rework your attitude about your gaming group. Try to see things from their perspective. The Dm as the right to have fun at his own gaming table, I suggest you try to exercise that right. Getting angry at them will not improve the situation, try to understand their decisions and make suggestions you think will help them (like the run feat) better than their idea.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 02:02 AM
Yes, but it's just not as simple as saying "Well, they show up, there can't be any dissonance going on" at least in my experience.

No, it's not. That was an oversimplification, I'll admit. I generally get an air of gallows humor at my table; they're doomed and they know it, but they're having fun in the process. :smallamused:


I can’t really give you any more advice without actually being at your table. But something else I noticed is that from your tone, you seem a bit hostile to your players, maybe your just frustrated, I really can’t tell.

I'm not so much hostile as naturally snarky. I do think two of them are either a bit dim or simply intellectually lazy, but apart from that I simply think that they're relatively new players for whom optimization simply doesn't occur to them. I was like that myself when I first started.

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 02:13 AM
Maybe your players are just addicted to playing. Or they're masochists.

I dunno, not like I know any of them.

You could ask them but I've found that way too often people say "I'm fine" rather than give constructive input. :smallsigh:

SilverLeaf167
2010-10-19, 02:21 AM
It's just that the Druid just runs about with naught but Cleric Vestments on. :smallannoyed: And Studded Leather, too, I suppose.
NITPICK TO THE RESCUE!
Druids aren't allowed to wear metal armor, or any armor with metal in it. Studded leather is basically metal covered in leather. According to most sources, it counts as metal armor and druids can't wear it.

The party is so weak though, I probably won't complain about this. At such low levels, the single point of AC can be really important.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 02:23 AM
NITPICK TO THE RESCUE!
Druids aren't allowed to wear metal armor, or any armor with metal in it. Studded leather is basically metal covered in leather. According to most sources, it counts as metal armor and druids can't wear it.

The party is so weak though, I probably won't complain about this. At such low levels, the single point of AC can be really important.

Eh, always felt that was a silly rule. Might've houseruled it out; can't remember.

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 02:25 AM
I can't believe I overlooked that rule! My druids have been wearing outfits with brass zippers FOREVER!

Earthwalker
2010-10-19, 03:22 AM
Looking at the characters it appears they are optimizing just not in the ways people on these boards will be familiar with. The fact they are trying to get better at running and hiding is a product of the GM style.

I know a little about this world and as such I can see why the players have made the choices they did. They are not optimizing combat abilities but are trying to be the best at hiding and running away, and who can blame them.
In your campaign I think I would play either a barbarian for the movement speed then move to ranger for the survival and stealth skills. Or a paladin and hope to live to get my mount.

No point trying to play anything good at combat…. Why ?

Simple you throw high CR encounters at the player they can not hope to survive in with combat, so they have to run / hide to stay alive.So why not get really good at those and forget about combat.

I aren’t even sure if the players or characters can tell the difference between, this encounter “will kill you“ and this is your “fight” encounter. So I think they should treat all encounters as this “will kill you” and run, run early and run often.

As such my advice is for all the characters to dip barbarian for run speed (monk is not available) or get spells to improve the run speed, Buy some good horses and get ride skill and max hide and sneak. Any problem they encounter just run.

Feats like Endurance, run and stealthy are good choices for this world.

Power attack is pointless, it doesn’t matter that you did 14 damage to the CR 8 demon as opposed to 8, Your still just as dead for trying to fight it. Run on the other hand might get you away from it.

Malbordeus
2010-10-19, 03:39 AM
i'm sure i saw a feat somewhere that reduced the penalties for moving and hiding in the same turn... oh well.

I think the main problem here is that as the players stats are so low (its impossible to get a 15 or higher as rolled) they are really playing with sub npc stats, making them very close to being glorified pesants. this has a huge impact on how effective their characters can be, basicly making CR appropriate encounters non-cr appropriate. consider increasing the CR of the monsters by +1 or +2 to ballance it out.

Jarian
2010-10-19, 03:57 AM
The problem isn't really that your PCs suck, it's that there's nearly no way to win available to them.

They have sub-NPC stats unless they roll ungodly well. Allowing them a new method of generating stats will help a little.

They have sharply limited sources available to them to make up for the current stats with strong feat/ACF combos.

They're low level, yet you're throwing CR-inappropriate encounters at them on a continual basis. Especially at low levels, a small bump in CR can change something from a fair fight to a TPK. Combo that with the above two points, and it's no wonder they're opting for feats that allow them to run and hide.

I'll preface this by saying that I don't pretend to know your players or what they like, so what follows is just my personal opinion. I would not play in your game. From what I read, any attempt at combat would be like beating my head against a brick wall - completely pointless and a thousand times more likely to knock me out before I beat it.

You seem to enjoy killing your PCs a lot. If that's what works for your group, hey, more power to you guys. But personally? Playing that seems like a no-win situation from a PC's perspective, and I don't like rolling up a new character after every encounter.

I'd talk to your players if it were me, see if they're actually enjoying the way things are going. People will put up with a surprising amount of stuff just so they don't have to find another group. Who knows, maybe you can find a way to accommodate your players' wishes and still get your kicks as the DM.

ETA: Yes, your PC's have sub-optimal builds, and yes, that's an understatement. But that's far from the biggest issue to be dealt with in your game, as far as I can tell.

Myth
2010-10-19, 04:15 AM
Two problems OP:

1. {{scrubbed}}
2. Your group is inexperienced in DnD and just want to roleplay.

The two don't mix well together.
{{scrubbed}}

NeoRetribution
2010-10-19, 04:30 AM
Jarian is exactly correct.

Having read every post in this thread, I would not take on this project. I would not run this game and certainly not as it has been detailed.

Hypothetically, if I did, the first thing I would do would be to House Rule automatic or learned ( roleplay ) feats for every character in the group. If not that, then every feat which the characters possess would be given some kind of stackable bonus. The numbers do not matter so much as the lack of tactical imagination. To my own opinion, the description seems like playing Chess Master where the player-characters have pawns and the zombies have rooks.

But...playing a cowardly character is fine. Peasants running and hiding can make sense for a setting, but these characters ( not Players ) do not appear to have access to the tools that they need. This may be a matter of imagination, but I do not mean to offend anyone.

At the least, there should be a wagon, or other large devices, which could be filled with oil, set on fire, and sent into the zombies. The items do not have to be artifacts, but I would not run a Zombie Apocalypse game like this.

My encouragement is to listen more heartily to all of the previously mentioned advice about asking your players what they want to play, how, and why. If you all agree then there is no reason to worry. But as Jarian said, "I would not play in your game." The GameMaster's duty is to supply challenges which are molded to the characters.

Listen carefully to your players. The game can, and should, be fun for everyone. That is my wish for you and your group.

Psyx
2010-10-19, 04:35 AM
"It's more survival horror-oriented."

Then D&D might not be the ideal system. Had you considered something more suited to the genre?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-19, 04:47 AM
*snip*That all seemed about as necessary and civil as the OP saying his players sucked. Besides, and I say this with all due respect to the OP, use Hanlon's Razor here. We all know the PCs have no tactical sense and couldn't optimize out of a wet paper bag, but the OP keeps asking the playground whether his meat-grinder encounters are going to utterly shred his noob party (which indicates he didn't know), and he (again, apparently) accidentally gimped the players more than they ever could with the terrible stat generation. It's a perfect storm of TPKs.

This doesn't mean the OP is a *bad* DM, or a bully, but he has a lot to learn. And again, this isn't meant as some condescending insult. I would have a lot to learn, too, if I ever decided to get back behind the screen.

FelixG
2010-10-19, 04:59 AM
The ban list is a bit insane...

Warlock would be a good viable choice for horrible, horrible stat generation methods as he could still do some good without being smacked in the face by worse encounters as much.

Tone down the "omg doom monsters" aspect down some

If you dont have fun killing your players that seems like an issue with you instead of them...perhaps try lower powered monsters with better tactics, try to have fun in different ways instead of slaughtering players?

To me it just seems like the players dont have a clue as to what they are doing, getting killed and told to make new characters before they can learn to do things right with the existing character, and have alot of good options denied to them in a bad situation.

That might be the big issue. "Well, you got killed but dont make another character like that one!" is a bad idea especially with players who dont know well what they are doing, this doesn't give them a chance to learn any little tricks to make themselves good, they just keep getting dumped from one bad situation into another.

Lev
2010-10-19, 05:05 AM
And sometimes it doesn't see any water.
Clearly minmaxing wouldn't be water if you've already had a chat with your players on the direction of the campaign and what you as a DM expect from them.

Kudaku
2010-10-19, 06:51 AM
The way I see it learning D&D is akin to learning to swim - there are different approaches. A nice and understanding dad would do some dry runs, then start his kids off in the kiddie pool (even though the dad probably enjoys the dive boards more) and gradually move them to deeper pools as their skill and confidence grows.

A less understanding dad would push them off the pool ledge on the deep end right from the get-go, and then spray them with the garden hose to simulate what it's like swimming in a storm.

Right now I'd say you're leaning towards the latter form of parenting. While that might work, it also results in scarred individuals, be they swimmers or players :smallbiggrin:


Instead of forcing your players to optimize, scale back your encounters and make the game easier on the players without losing the feel of the game. At the same time you need to remove some of the ban limitations you've forced on your players (I won't comment on which ones, others on this forum know the crunch far better than I), and that horrible horrible horrible AB roll system.
You said you wanted to run a survival horror game, that's fine. But the focus on a survival horror game should be horror and survival - not constant TPKs. There are plenty of ways to make the game exciting and scary, dumping dice on the players really isn't one of them. If any of this sounds interesting I'd suggest you look up some of the excellent threads on this forum on how to create a proper "creepy" feel to a game.

Finally, as many others here have suggested I think you should sit down and have a chat with your players - it's fine that you want to run a certain kind of game but that doesn't necessarily mean they think that's cool, and when you get down to it D&D is about having fun together. You mentioned earlier that one of your players mentioned she was thinking about starting her own campaign... That's not necessarily a good sign on how your own game is coming along.

Lev
2010-10-19, 07:11 AM
Good points Kudaku, when I play horror and survival I really enjoy getting down to basics, gameplay and roleplay that forces you to get down to the grit to conserve just to make it out alive.

If you are playing horror, you don't have to throw 50 zombies at them or a golem made of pain and flayed demonskin, really the more you scale a horror game back the less eerie but the more scary it actually will be because the players associate more to realistic horror than upscaled horror, and a weak player will be more afraid than a strong player.

If you have your characters playing the justice friends then a character like Barry the Chopper is not going to even phase them, giving them plot armor will reduce the actual roleplaying impact significantly.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2494/4144218219_c984981de8.jpg

As for survival, when I think of a horror survival game I think of fighting a few zombies at a time, and hitting them with the blunt of my shotgun to save ammo, running out at some point then having to smash the butt of the gun against a zombie's face over and over and over again, until it lays still. Fighting in horror usually uses a traumatizing feel to it to really bring out the emotions.

Really what it sounds like is you are wanting to run a combination of a highly charged action movie type game and combine it with a lot of horror/survival and you are unsure how to run this sort of thing without overwhelming how your players are choosing to play their characters.

Or, you could run it like Elfen Lied and have a LOT of mortality if you know what I mean, that works... but only in a centralized plotline where the characters play multiple roles so they don't have to reroll every session.

Tytalus
2010-10-19, 07:27 AM
I strongly suggest you play D&D 3.5 normally before modifying it so heavily. It will give you more experience to know what to modify.


+1.

If you drastically reduce away the players' power (poor stat generation method) and limit choices (strange house-rules that negatively impact the characters and looong ban-list), it's not too surprising they are having a hard time against CR-inappropriate encounters.

Earthwalker
2010-10-19, 08:19 AM
I have replied to this once but I have still been thinking about it and how to best help.

I will repeat what has been said and ask you to talk to the players about how you feel they are not optimized enough to deal with what you are sending at them. I would say first can you express what you are trying to achieve with your campaign as I have seen a few threads and currently I am confused.
Do you want players optimized for combat or survivability? It seems that there is a conflict in what you want.

For example if you throw a CR 5 encounter at the group are you expecting them all to live and survive by combat ?

Say if you throw four at them in a day.
Are you happy if they just run 4 times and get away. Would they get xp for that.
Would you prefer them to fight the first and run from the rest.
Or should they be trying to fight all ?

Next to rules.

Are you expecting them to know all the rules? Is this a case of these are challenges for you to beat. If you knew all the rules then you should live through this. Its me v you and I have spent the time learning so should you ?
If you are wanting them to know all the rules perhaps having a “workshop” where you go through all the rules and what combat options they all have. Maybe make 5 characters and show them, this is what I am expecting. (of course this is only the case if they are suppose to fight your encounters) Maybe even go over the basics like flanking and some of the manuvers.

How far do we go, should your players know all the monsters in the monster manual to live in your game. Do they have to know what DR is on zombies (I use this as an example as this has added to a TPK in the past.) If MM is out of bounds then you need to tell them that some creatures to get a DR based on weapon types or enchantment bonus.

Knowledge skills

People have pointed out that some of the build have low knowledge skills. Now this again is players choosing survival skills over knowledges. They have learnt that being able to hide is better then knowledge religion. In some games this can be true.

I would suggest giving the characters some free knowledge skill points and then making the knowledges usful in game.

Knowledge undead giving an idea of a monsters stat block etc. Don’t leave it till your players tell you I want to roll a knowledge. To start with you tell them to roll it. After a few times it has been usful they will invest more. It seems currently the players have no clues as to what to do as they don’t get information from you.

Hope some of this helps.

elpollo
2010-10-19, 08:19 AM
One fact that I need to get off the bat right away is that the starting rolls I use is 1d6 +8, rerolling if the total bonus is less than +2. This leads to fairly low-powered characters to begin with, yes, but it also means nobody will be rolling 7s. :smallannoyed:

You know point buy does this?




Skills:
Diplomacy
Gather Information
Intimidate
Use Magic Device

Why are you banning these? UMD is basically a class skill feature in itself for non-casters.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 08:26 AM
You know point buy does this?

But point buy isn't random.


Why are you banning these? UMD is basically a class skill in itself for non-casters.

Diplomacy - NPCs get no saving throw vs. this. It's essentially mind control and I hate it. :smallannoyed:

Gather Information - Try actually asking an NPC, you lazy bastards. :smallannoyed:

Intimidate - This is essentialy Diplomacy by way of Jerkass. Hate it for the same reasons.

Use Magic Device - What? No, you can't "fake" a goddamn thing about magic. Either you find that wand's 'on' button or it doesn't work, period.


Do you want players optimized for combat or survivability? It seems that there is a conflict in what you want.

Survivability. Not nessicarily inept at combat, but their primary focus should be in the field of not being dead.


For example if you throw a CR 5 encounter at the group are you expecting them all to live and survive by combat ?

If they choose to fight any encounter except an intentionally overpowering one (say, the Kyton from two sessions back), they should be able to win with two PC casualties at the most.


Say if you throw four at them in a day.

Unlikely, unless they either are in a location swarming with enemies as-is, or intentionally go looking for a fight.


Are you happy if they just run 4 times and get away. Would they get xp for that.

Depends on how much danger they were actually in. If even running was potentially lethal (such as being hunted down by the aforementioned Kyton), they'd receive full XP. If only fighting had the potential for harm, half XP. If they're just being overcautious and running from a fluffy puppy I put there specifically for an easy fight for once, no XP.


Would you prefer them to fight the first and run from the rest.

If the first left them near-death, definately flee from later encounters. In a different campaign I caused a TPK because the players never stopped to rest for about a day straight. Then I threw what should have been an easy fight at them and they were all slaughtered.


Or should they be trying to fight all ?

If they're outnumbered, run. If they're equal in numbers, run. If there's only one opponent, but it looks confident, run.


Are you expecting them to know all the rules? Is this a case of these are challenges for you to beat. If you knew all the rules then you should live through this. Its me v you and I have spent the time learning so should you ?
If you are wanting them to know all the rules perhaps having a “workshop” where you go through all the rules and what combat options they all have. Maybe make 5 characters and show them, this is what I am expecting. (of course this is only the case if they are suppose to fight your encounters) Maybe even go over the basics like flanking and some of the manuvers.

Hell, I don't even know all of the rules. For example, I couldn't tell you what fighting defensively does without reaching for my PHB.


How far do we go, should your players know all the monsters in the monster manual to live in your game. Do they have to know what DR is on zombies (I use this as an example as this has added to a TPK in the past.) If MM is out of bounds then you need to tell them that some creatures to get a DR based on weapon types or enchantment bonus.

That reduces the element of suprise, though.


People have pointed out that some of the build have low knowledge skills. Now this again is players choosing survival skills over knowledges. They have learnt that being able to hide is better then knowledge religion. In some games this can be true.

True enough.


I would suggest giving the characters some free knowledge skill points and then making the knowledges usful in game.

I was mulling over the idea of certain classes getting a Knowledge skill intrinsically tied to them. I.e., Wizards have a bonus to Knowledge (Arcana) equal to their class level or something. Clerics get Knowledge (Religion) and Druids get Knowledge (Nature).

On the other hand, that seems a bit much. But it doesn't make sense for those classes to not know those things.


Knowledge undead giving an idea of a monsters stat block etc. Don’t leave it till your players tell you I want to roll a knowledge. To start with you tell them to roll it. After a few times it has been usful they will invest more. It seems currently the players have no clues as to what to do as they don’t get information from you.

I was actually planning to do this with the more outlandish monsters, like Outsiders. But you don't really need a knowledge check on, say, wolves. It's a wolf.

CalamaroJoe
2010-10-19, 08:42 AM
I think this thread is a bit pointless.
Psycho, you say your characters are crappy (and for a certain standard maybe they are), but then comes out that they have a lot of limitations on what they can choose.
I really don't see the point in giving them sub-par options and thowing at them monsters with full CR.

If everybody at the table has fun in this way, then go on and have a good time. But if you're asking for advice, probably you feel that there is something that is not woking well...

Greenish
2010-10-19, 08:43 AM
Intimidate - This is essentialy Diplomacy by way of Jerkass. Hate it for the same reasons.It is also the only thing ever that the CW Samurai has going for it.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 08:48 AM
It is also the only thing ever that the CW Samurai has going for it.

Well, I'm intending to ditch Samurai anyway.

Lev
2010-10-19, 08:48 AM
Diplomacy - NPCs get no saving throw vs. this. It's essentially mind control and I hate it. :smallannoyed:

Gather Information - Try actually asking an NPC, you lazy bastards. :smallannoyed:

Intimidate - This is essentialy Diplomacy by way of Jerkass. Hate it for the same reasons.

Use Magic Device - What? No, you can't "fake" a goddamn thing about magic. Either you find that wand's 'on' button or it doesn't work, period.

You might as well get it over with and take out the entire charisma stat if you don't like the idea of your players having more charisma than they have IRL.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 08:50 AM
You might as well get it over with and take out the entire charisma stat if you don't like the idea of your players having more charisma than they have IRL.

You're extrapolating. I have no problem with charismatic PCs. But charisma isn't magic. You actually have to roleplay being a convincing person. :smallannoyed:

Besides, Charisma is also force of personality and is needed for other things.

elpollo
2010-10-19, 08:51 AM
But point buy isn't random.

... is that an issue? That seems like a good thing, as everyone is on a level playing field.



Diplomacy - NPCs get no saving throw vs. this. It's essentially mind control and I hate it. :smallannoyed:

Then stop making it mind control. It doesn't have to be. Here's an example (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html).



Gather Information - Try actually asking an NPC, you lazy bastards. :smallannoyed:

It's not always necessary. Say you want to contact someone:

(With gather information)
P: "Can I find out where Mr. X hangs out?"
DM: "Sure, roll Gather Information. Ok, you find out he often hangs out in tavern Y"
P: "Great. We'll go and talk to him."

(Without gather information)
P: "Can I find out where Mr. X hangs out?"
DM: "Sure."
P: "I... uh... ok, I guess we'll go into the pub where we met the contact who sent us to him."
DM: "Ok, the contact is there."
P: " 'Arrgh, where be Mr. X?' "
DM: " 'He's usually at tavern Y' "
P: "Great. We'll go and talk to him."

Now, you don't necessarily need a skill check to do this, but that's not your reason for dropping the skill. Do you really want to roleplay every encounter you have with every person in a day? 'Cause that would take a very long time.



Use Magic Device - What? No, you can't "fake" a goddamn thing about magic. Either you find that wand's 'on' button or it doesn't work, period.

But that's basically what sorcerers do, only UMD is only affecting the one item rather than the entire universe.

How do you determine if they find this mystical "On Button"?

kabof
2010-10-19, 08:58 AM
You're extrapolating. I have no problem with charismatic PCs. But charisma isn't magic. You actually have to roleplay being a convincing person.
So if I'm shy and want to play a guy with 18 Charisma, I can't, because I'm not a "convicing person" in real life?

elpollo
2010-10-19, 09:03 AM
So if I'm shy and want to play a guy with 18 Charisma, I can't, because I'm not a "convicing person" in real life?

Exactly. And if you want to play a mage god help you if you can't throw a fireball.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:03 AM
... is that an issue? That seems like a good thing, as everyone is on a level playing field.

Let's go with "yes."


Then stop making it mind control. It doesn't have to be. Here's an example (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html).

Or they could just roleplay.


It's not always necessary. Say you want to contact someone:

(With gather information)
P: "Can I find out where Mr. X hangs out?"
DM: "Sure, roll Gather Information. Ok, you find out he often hangs out in tavern Y"
P: "Great. We'll go and talk to him."

(Without gather information)
P: "Can I find out where Mr. X hangs out?"
DM: "Sure."
P: "I... uh... ok, I guess we'll go into the pub where we met the contact who sent us to him."
DM: "Ok, the contact is there."
P: " 'Arrgh, where be Mr. X?' "
DM: " 'He's usually at tavern Y' "
P: "Great. We'll go and talk to him."

Now, you don't necessarily need a skill check to do this, but that's not your reason for dropping the skill. Do you really want to roleplay every encounter you have with every person in a day? 'Cause that would take a very long time.

Yes, I do.


But that's basically what sorcerers do, only UMD is only affecting the one item rather than the entire universe.

Except Sorcerers are genetically magical. Rogues aren't.


How do you determine if they find this mystical "On Button"?

Dumb luck, the instruction manual that came with it, or casting identify or somesuch.


So if I'm shy and want to play a guy with 18 Charisma, I can't, because I'm not a "convicing person" in real life?

I'm not charismatic either, but I can play one on TV. :smalltongue:

Seriously. I'm an introverted jerkass whose default assumption is that everyone is an ******* and an idiot until they prove otherwise. But I can roleplay suave Magnificient Bastards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) if I have to.

pffh
2010-10-19, 09:10 AM
But use magic device is essentially how good you are at finding the on button. It's a skill that describes how familiar you are with handling magical devices. Why do you need to be able to cast spells to use a wand when the magic is in the wand itself?

So yeah UMD is not faking magic it's knowing how to use these magical devices eg finding the magical on button and knowing how to push it.

Loren
2010-10-19, 09:10 AM
This may seem a tangent, but please bear with me. While there are some problems with the characters and it seems like there are some issues around expectations of the game, it seems to me that the players are having trouble with the game itself. Something that might bear consideration is the system. A fighter, while an improvement from a samuria still isn't going to provide a superpowerful character in 3.5. Have you considered upgrading to Pathfinder? It's availible at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/
This is basically a newer version of 3.5 with a fair number of options for none casters and some power upgrades that will make producing stronger characters easier. The revised skill list would also allow the players stretch their skill points a bit further and cover survival skills and a knowledge or two. Also the streamlined combat maneuvers makes things like tripping ang grappling much easier, encouraging players to use these options. As a DM that amount you'd need to learn is minimal to make the conversion. Pathfinder is also backwards compatible (with some small effort) meaning that all your old books can still be used.

Another question, are the players familiar with the d20 srd? I know it is hard to find 3.5 books, so many new players to the system are have difficulty studying how the system works. But they can read all the relivant info on game mechanics on the srd, allowing them to come to the table better prepared.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:12 AM
But use magic device is essentially how good you are at finding the on button. It's a skill that describes how familiar you are with handling magical devices. Why do you need to be able to cast spells to use a wand when the magic is in the wand itself?

So yeah UMD is not faking magic it's knowing how to use these magical devices eg finding the magical on button and knowing how to push it.

I was referring to the "fake class features, race, etc." part.

prufock
2010-10-19, 09:14 AM
my campaigns have a significantly higher lethality rate than the default. It's more survival horror-oriented.


All I'm trying to do is make it more than four sessions without another TPK.

You're trying to achieve 2 contradictory thing here. You have a highly-lethal campaign, but don't want the characters to die. You want them to be better optimized, but have limited their ability to do so. You have crippled their ability scores, but insist on putting them against opponents with CR well above their level.

I'm going to suggest a very simple solution: increase their level. This way you don't have to change the monsters you're throwing at them, but they will be closer to appropriate CR. TPKs will be less likely because of better saves, HP, spells, and attacks.

kabof
2010-10-19, 09:14 AM
I'm not charismatic either, but I can play one on TV.

Seriously. I'm an introverted jerkass whose default assumption is that everyone is an ******* and an idiot until they prove otherwise. But I can roleplay suave Magnificient Bastards if I have to.
So if you can do something your players also must be able to do the same thing, even if they don't feel confortable doing it?

All in all, you show lack of planning in your gaming style. If you're afraid to kill the party, do what I do: DM te adventure to yourself. It takes a couple of hours, but gives you a nice idea about how combats are going to end. The only problem is that it only works if you know your group and how they play.

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 09:15 AM
Some people can't do it. No fault on them, but they can't.

Sometimes it's two people together who can't. I admit as a DM, I've been in a few circumstances where what the player wanted to do, and my reaction were in conflict.

So I didn't feel I could fairly adjudicate it through abstract roleplaying. So the rules were helpful to me.

It can also help when the player is the sly and charming one.

Besides, if you want to give NPCs a counter to Diplomacy you can do so.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:16 AM
You're trying to achieve 2 contradictory thing here. You have a highly-lethal campaign, but don't want the characters to die. You want them to be better optimized, but have limited their ability to do so. You have crippled their ability scores, but insist on putting them against opponents with CR well above their level.

I'm trying to have a highly, but not completely, lethal campaign. Middle ground, y'know?

GreyMantle
2010-10-19, 09:24 AM
Edit: Totally ninja'd.


But point buy isn't random.



Diplomacy - NPCs get no saving throw vs. this. It's essentially mind control and I hate it. :smallannoyed:

Gather Information - Try actually asking an NPC, you lazy bastards. :smallannoyed:

Intimidate - This is essentialy Diplomacy by way of Jerkass. Hate it for the same reasons.

Use Magic Device - What? No, you can't "fake" a goddamn thing about magic. Either you find that wand's 'on' button or it doesn't work, period.

Concerning Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate: Are all of your players worldclass actors who are capable of perfectly placing themselves in any given situation you could describe to them with as little or as much flavortext as you are able to feed to them? Do they (the players) know who would be the most likely NPC to know any given piece of information? Are you able to perfectly simulate the likely expressions of any given NPC the PCs might encounter, particularly if it's not something you've prepared?

There's obviously no way I can know this for certain, but I'm guessing the answer is in fact "no." Now I totally understand your desire to have actual roleplaying in NPC interactions. But here's the thing: most people are not worldclass actors. They might be sooperdooper enthusiastic, but eagerness can only take you so far. It's also unrealistic to expect the players to know every single detail about the world that their characters are in.

The rules of the game are there for two mains reasons: to help facilitate conflictresolution and to provide background and inspiration for roleplaying.

Here's what a lot of people do with Cha-based checks, I suspect.

SCENE: The players are in a port town, trying to find someone who can sell them a boat so they can sneak into a city of floating boats tied together.

PC1: Well, we just got into this town, so we don't really know anyone here. I make a Gather Information check. We're looking for a cheap, used boat that won't attract a lot of attention. [rolls] 15

DM: By asking local NPCs about the town, you hear that there's a tavern called the Salty Dog that might have what you're looking for. (WotC adventures usually have little prewritten speeches that give examples of what people might say based on various GI checks, you can totally do that if you want to draw out the investigation. But there's no way the players could've known that the Salty Dog would have cheap boats outside of either you just telling them or them using their skills to further the storyline.

PC2: Okay, we go there.

DM: The bouncer's a big, fat hairy halforc. He points at each of you, holding up ten grimy fingers each time. He sez, "gold."

PC2: I whip out my longsword, hold it to his throat and say offhandedly to my friends, "Doesn't this cute li'l guy remind you of that other bouncer? How much did he want, was it 11 gp? And I totally killed him?" [Rolls Intimidate]

[DM chooses some DC (assuming he's a level 2 warrior or something, I'd probably do 10+1/2 HD+Str mod)]
DM: That was a pretty convincing Intimidate, so you get an additional +3 to your check.

[player succeeds, or doesn't]

(Alternatively, PC2 coulda been all, "We're powerful adventurers who could totally kill you. Let us in for free." And (s)he would not have received a bonus to Intimidate. Depending on the lameness, you could've even given a -2 penalty or whatever. But the game would still not have ground to a halt while the PCs tried to think of some way of getting in.)

[players go inside tavern, find some old dude with a boat]

Old Dude: Well this here boat's been in my family for years. You'd hafta pay me a fortune to part with it. (Maybe he's lying, in which case you'd probably wanna roll bluff against their passive sense motive checks or whatever.)

PC3: Y'know old man, your boat's definitely seen some better days. But when we bring down the Floating City, can you imagine the amount of salvage you could pick up? We'd totally give your boat back to you, if you want, but you could easily find a much nicer one.

[Rolls diplomacy. You can either just eyeball a DC, or find a variant ruleset you like. There's a pretty good one in the "gaming" section of this website by Rich.]

DM: Again, that was some classy diplomacy-ing. Take a +2.




The point is that the players are still forced to think like their characters, but they're allowed to use the resources and knowledge their characters would actually possess that are abstracted by the skill system.


As for UMD, your conclusion (banning the skill) is a vaguely valid-esque one, if only because (mis)using it can lead to serious shenanigans at high levels (not that your characters will ever reach those, but hey...), but your reasoning (it doesn't make "sense") is srsly stupid. The reasoning behind the skill is that characters are able to draw upon the force of their personality (represented by their Charisma score) to force objects of power to obey their wills. Considering that magic is basically described as the same thing (except that the actual training of class levels allows you to draw upon raw magic itself), I really don't see why you should have an inworld reason to ban the skill (other than "real people can't do this in real life, therefore fantasy characters who live in a world of magic can't do this," which, as I mentioned before, is stupid.

If you wanted to up the "survivalhorror" aspect of the game (although, as several others have noted, you seem to be going more for a "tpkreroll" feel for the game), you could make some unpleasant sideeffects that happen if you botch your UMD roll. Don't make them likely to happen every single time a character fails, but, if done sparingly, you could add a lot of perceived danger to the game while adding very little real danger, which is honestly what survivalhorror gaming is all about.

Kudaku
2010-10-19, 09:29 AM
...So you don't actually want to play a horror survival game, you want to play a horror dying game. Honestly, striving to kill off players is about a bad a trait in a DM as I've ever seen. The threat of death is a tool to make the player's decisions significant, to make it matter - you use it to create a good story. It should not be the main goal of your campaign.

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 09:31 AM
Instead of assuming that your players are going to optimize their characters, why don't you read their character sheets and tailor the encounters to their power level. Not everybody believes that optimization is a law written in stone.

elpollo
2010-10-19, 09:33 AM
Let's go with "yes."

Is there any reason?



Or they could just roleplay.

But then it's entirely based on how you want things to go down. Roleplaying and rolling a die are not mutually exclusive.



Yes, I do.

P: "Right, so we rest for the night. In the morning we head out to..."
D: "Wait. You wake up to a knock at the door."
P: "Ok, I prepare my sword and open the door slightly."
D: "You see a serving girl. 'Good morning sir, I hope you had a good night's sleep.' "
P: " 'Aye, 'twas most enjoyable lass, but I must be off. I must find me the kraken before it strikes again.' " (He's a pirate) "Ok, I dress and leave."
D: "Without paying?" (Maybe you don't pay after staying the night - I don't know how medieval inns worked)
P: "What? No. Of course I pay."
D: " Ok, you meet the owner. 'Hullo. Will you be wanting breakfast now?' "
P: " '... no. Just the bill.' "
D: " 'That will be three silver pieces.' "
P: "I pay him and head out to my ship."
D: "Wait. As you're leaving you run into a peasant carrying a bunch of chickens, who accidently knocks into you. 'Sorry, m'lud.' Later you see a bawdy looking woman who gestures provocatively and approaches. 'Looking for a good time?' "
P: "I... 'I be in a hurry. Out of my way, wench.' I go to..."
D: " 'Oh, how rude! Did you hear that, no time for a working girl!' "
P: "I. Go. To. The. Ship."
D: "Without paying the harbourmaster?"
P: "No! I pay him and leave."
D: " 'Good marning! Are you planning ta head out today?' "
P: " 'Yes. Here's the money.' "
D: " 'But I haven't told you how much it is yet. Let's see now, I'll just send my boy out to get the log book.' "
P: "I give him 80 platinum, now I'm going to the boat."
D: " 'I... why thank ye sir. Why, my family will be able to retire now, and my old grandpa, Pelor rest his soul, will be smiling down on you for the rest of your days. If you ever...' "
P: "BOAT."
D: "Fine, but he's very offended that you just walked off. As you get on the boat Jimmy the bosun approaches. 'Capitan, how was the night's rest?' "
P: " 'We be leaving, Jimmy the bosun.' "
D: " 'We 'ad best be rounding up the crew.' "
P: "Fine. We do that and..."
D: "So the first three crewmembers are in a local tavern still drinking. 'Capitan on the deck' says Jimmy the bosun. The other three sailors jump to their feet. 'Good morning captain' 'Hello captain' Zanzibar the mute of course says nothing, but waves"
P: "Fine, we go to the boat and..."
D: "You still have to round up the other twelve crew members."
P: "I burn the town to the ground. Now can we leave?"



Except Sorcerers are genetically magical. Rogues aren't.

*Blinks*

I'm sorry, what? Where does it say that? There aren't genetics in D&D.



Dumb luck, the instruction manual that came with it, or casting identify or somesuch.

How is fooling the device more rediculous than Hargroth (the great and powerful, destroyer of men, great smith to the god of war) making an instruction manual to his rod of total annihilation?

Noodles2375
2010-10-19, 09:33 AM
Let's go with "yes."


Not to belabor the point, but is there any particular reason why?

One of the reasons why I like doing point buy with my players so much is that everyone feels they are on a level playing field. Sometimes people feel resentful from the outset if another player has randomly rolled amazing ability scores. The awesome thing about point buy, is that by capping the number of points you can essentially press the players into a certain power level of stats, but make them feel like they still have complete control over their character! DM wins, players win, campaign wins!

Ex. For 32 point buy:
a wizard might look like:
str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 8
while a Paladin might look more like:
str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 16
(and might end up as a lesser aasmiar to take advantage of the racial bonuses to cha/wis)

But the same characters in 25 point buy might look like:
str 9 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8
and
str 14 dex 9 con 14 int 10 wis 12 cha 14

Just to re-iterate, the point buy will let you cap the power level, but will allow the players to truly customize their characters and make the players not feel resentful about lucky rolling.

FelixG
2010-10-19, 09:40 AM
So...what im getting is...theres no wrong house rules ect...Insisting its survival horror, where there is aparently 0% survival on the players parts.

Well the OP did accept there is better stat generation methods and that CW samurai sucks, thats a start at least.

is that 150 diplomacy check to turn a hated enemy into a fanatic (aka "mind control") really that big of an issue for a party that is slaughtered on a regular basis? :smallconfused:

On gather information...Roleplaying has its places, but gather information takes HOURS, this is sitting in bars buying people drinks and listening to them talk.

Do you sit there and talk at your players for hours to let them pick up information? The burden is not on THEM to rp if you outlaw gather information its on YOU. They pretty much just have to nod and say go on while pretending to slide a drink toward you now and then.

pffh
2010-10-19, 09:40 AM
P: "Right, so we rest for the night. In the morning we head out to..."
D: "Wait. You wake up to a knock at the door."
P: "Ok, I prepare my sword and open the door slightly."
D: "You see a serving girl. 'Good morning sir, I hope you had a good night's sleep.' "
P: " 'Aye, 'twas most enjoyable lass, but I must be off. I must find me the kraken before it strikes again.' " (He's a pirate) "Ok, I dress and leave."
D: "Without paying?" (Maybe you don't pay after staying the night - I don't know how medieval inns worked)
P: "What? No. Of course I pay."
D: " Ok, you meet the owner. 'Hullo. Will you be wanting breakfast now?' "
P: " '... no. Just the bill.' "
D: " 'That will be three silver pieces.' "
P: "I pay him and head out to my ship."
D: "Wait. As you're leaving you run into a peasant carrying a bunch of chickens, who accidently knocks into you. 'Sorry, m'lud.' Later you see a bawdy looking woman who gestures provocatively and approaches. 'Looking for a good time?' "
P: "I... 'I be in a hurry. Out of my way, wench.' I go to..."
D: " 'Oh, how rude! Did you hear that, no time for a working girl!' "
P: "I. Go. To. The. Ship."
D: "Without paying the harbourmaster?"
P: "No! I pay him and leave."
D: " 'Good marning! Are you planning ta head out today?' "
P: " 'Yes. Here's the money.' "
D: " 'But I haven't told you how much it is yet. Let's see now, I'll just send my boy out to get the log book.' "
P: "I give him 80 platinum, now I'm going to the boat."
D: " 'I... why thank ye sir. Why, my family will be able to retire now, and my old grandpa, Pelor rest his soul, will be smiling down on you for the rest of your days. If you ever...' "
P: "BOAT."
D: "Fine, but he's very offended that you just walked off. As you get on the boat Jimmy the bosun approaches. 'Capitan, how was the night's rest?' "
P: " 'We be leaving, Jimmy the bosun.' "
D: " 'We 'ad best be rounding up the crew.' "
P: "Fine. We do that and..."
D: "So the first three crewmembers are in a local tavern still drinking. 'Capitan on the deck' says Jimmy the bosun. The other three sailors jump to their feet. 'Good morning captain' 'Hello captain' Zanzibar the mute of course says nothing, but waves"
P: "Fine, we go to the boat and..."
D: "You still have to round up the other twelve crew members."
P: "I burn the town to the ground. Now can we leave?"


I am now tempted to run a one shot like that.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:41 AM
Concerning Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate: Are all of your players worldclass actors who are capable of perfectly placing themselves in any given situation you could describe to them with as little or as much flavortext as you are able to feed to them? Do they (the players) know who would be the most likely NPC to know any given piece of information? Are you able to perfectly simulate the likely expressions of any given NPC the PCs might encounter, particularly if it's not something you've prepared?

There's obviously no way I can know this for certain, but I'm guessing the answer is in fact "no." Now I totally understand your desire to have actual roleplaying in NPC interactions. But here's the thing: most people are not worldclass actors. They might be sooperdooper enthusiastic, but eagerness can only take you so far. It's also unrealistic to expect the players to know every single detail about the world that their characters are in.

I'm not an actor either. I seem to do fairly well. (On the other hand, I am a writer who specializes in dialogue.)


The rules of the game are there for two mains reasons: to help facilitate conflictresolution and to provide background and inspiration for roleplaying.

Here's what a lot of people do with Cha-based checks, I suspect.

SCENE: The players are in a port town, trying to find someone who can sell them a boat so they can sneak into a city of floating boats tied together.

PC1: Well, we just got into this town, so we don't really know anyone here. I make a Gather Information check. We're looking for a cheap, used boat that won't attract a lot of attention. [rolls] 15

DM: By asking local NPCs about the town, you hear that there's a tavern called the Salty Dog that might have what you're looking for. (WotC adventures usually have little prewritten speeches that give examples of what people might say based on various GI checks, you can totally do that if you want to draw out the investigation. But there's no way the players could've known that the Salty Dog would have cheap boats outside of either you just telling them or them using their skills to further the storyline.

Or they could ask a random peasant on the street the exact same question, and get the same result without any rolling.


PC2: Okay, we go there.

DM: The bouncer's a big, fat hairy halforc. He points at each of you, holding up ten grimy fingers each time. He sez, "gold."

PC2: I whip out my longsword, hold it to his throat and say offhandedly to my friends, "Doesn't this cute li'l guy remind you of that other bouncer? How much did he want, was it 11 gp? And I totally killed him?" [Rolls Intimidate]

[DM chooses some DC (assuming he's a level 2 warrior or something, I'd probably do 10+1/2 HD+Str mod)]
DM: That was a pretty convincing Intimidate, so you get an additional +3 to your check.

[player succeeds, or doesn't]

(Alternatively, PC2 coulda been all, "We're powerful adventurers who could totally kill you. Let us in for free." And (s)he would not have received a bonus to Intimidate. Depending on the lameness, you could've even given a -2 penalty or whatever. But the game would still not have ground to a halt while the PCs tried to think of some way of getting in.)

I don't see why they couldn't just try doing the same thing without an Intimidate check, and I just decide that yes, it does work, or no, it doesn't work, based on what they said or did.


[players go inside tavern, find some old dude with a boat]

Old Dude: Well this here boat's been in my family for years. You'd hafta pay me a fortune to part with it. (Maybe he's lying, in which case you'd probably wanna roll bluff against their passive sense motive checks or whatever.)

PC3: Y'know old man, your boat's definitely seen some better days. But when we bring down the Floating City, can you imagine the amount of salvage you could pick up? We'd totally give your boat back to you, if you want, but you could easily find a much nicer one.

[Rolls diplomacy. You can either just eyeball a DC, or find a variant ruleset you like. There's a pretty good one in the "gaming" section of this website by Rich.]

DM: Again, that was some classy diplomacy-ing. Take a +2.

Again, I don't see why the rolling part is nessicary. Basically, I just prefer freeform roleplaying when it comes to social interaction.


As for UMD, your conclusion (banning the skill) is a vaguely valid-esque one, if only because (mis)using it can lead to serious shenanigans at high levels (not that your characters will ever reach those, but hey...), but your reasoning (it doesn't make "sense") is srsly stupid. The reasoning behind the skill is that characters are able to draw upon the force of their personality (represented by their Charisma score) to force objects of power to obey their wills. Considering that magic is basically described as the same thing (except that the actual training of class levels allows you to draw upon raw magic itself), I really don't see why you should have an inworld reason to ban the skill (other than "real people can't do this in real life, therefore fantasy characters who live in a world of magic can't do this," which, as I mentioned before, is stupid.

Alternative interpretations of the same thing. I interpret magic classes as working with magic, figuring out the rules and exploiting them. UMD is, as you said, an attempt to use sheer force of personality to bend magic to their wills, which in my setting is impossible. Magic answers to no one. Either you work with it or live without it.


If you wanted to up the "survivalhorror" aspect of the game (although, as several others have noted, you seem to be going more for a "tpkreroll" feel for the game), you could make some unpleasant sideeffects that happen if you botch your UMD roll. Don't make them likely to happen every single time a character fails, but, if done sparingly, you could add a lot of perceived danger to the game while adding very little real danger, which is honestly what survivalhorror gaming is all about.

Really? In my experience survival horror gaming is "ohgodohgodI'mgoingtodierunawaynowI'mcorneredkillit killitkillitholycrapI'malive."


Is there any reason?

Mainly because with point buy, you always suck. With random generation, occasionally you get lucky and have like 4 18s.


P: "Right, so we rest for the night. In the morning we head out to..."
D: "Wait. You wake up to a knock at the door."
P: "Ok, I prepare my sword and open the door slightly."
D: "You see a serving girl. 'Good morning sir, I hope you had a good night's sleep.' "
P: " 'Aye, 'twas most enjoyable lass, but I must be off. I must find me the kraken before it strikes again.' " (He's a pirate) "Ok, I dress and leave."
D: "Without paying?" (Maybe you don't pay after staying the night - I don't know how medieval inns worked)
P: "What? No. Of course I pay."
D: " Ok, you meet the owner. 'Hullo. Will you be wanting breakfast now?' "
P: " '... no. Just the bill.' "
D: " 'That will be three silver pieces.' "
P: "I pay him and head out to my ship."
D: "Wait. As you're leaving you run into a peasant carrying a bunch of chickens, who accidently knocks into you. 'Sorry, m'lud.' Later you see a bawdy looking woman who gestures provocatively and approaches. 'Looking for a good time?' "
P: "I... 'I be in a hurry. Out of my way, wench.' I go to..."
D: " 'Oh, how rude! Did you hear that, no time for a working girl!' "
P: "I. Go. To. The. Ship."
D: "Without paying the harbourmaster?"
P: "No! I pay him and leave."
D: " 'Good marning! Are you planning ta head out today?' "
P: " 'Yes. Here's the money.' "
D: " 'But I haven't told you how much it is yet. Let's see now, I'll just send my boy out to get the log book.' "
P: "I give him 80 platinum, now I'm going to the boat."
D: " 'I... why thank ye sir. Why, my family will be able to retire now, and my old grandpa, Pelor rest his soul, will be smiling down on you for the rest of your days. If you ever...' "
P: "BOAT."
D: "Fine, but he's very offended that you just walked off. As you get on the boat Jimmy the bosun approaches. 'Capitan, how was the night's rest?' "
P: " 'We be leaving, Jimmy the bosun.' "
D: " 'We 'ad best be rounding up the crew.' "
P: "Fine. We do that and..."
D: "So the first three crewmembers are in a local tavern still drinking. 'Capitan on the deck' says Jimmy the bosun. The other three sailors jump to their feet. 'Good morning captain' 'Hello captain' Zanzibar the mute of course says nothing, but waves"
P: "Fine, we go to the boat and..."
D: "You still have to round up the other twelve crew members."
P: "I burn the town to the ground. Now can we leave?"

I'm sure that was supposed to prove me wrong. I think it's the most awesome thing I'll read all day.


*Blinks*

I'm sorry, what? Where does it say that? There aren't genetics in D&D.

1) There is if I say there is.
2) Sorcerers have magical "bloodlines" if that makes you any happier.


How is fooling the device more rediculous than Hargroth (the great and powerful, destroyer of men, great smith to the god of war) making an instruction manual to his rod of total annihilation?

Well, the instruction manual would be less like VCR instructions and more like a crypic religious tome, but I don't find it that odd.

FelixG
2010-10-19, 09:46 AM
I'm not an actor either. I seem to do fairly well. (On the other hand, I am a writer who specializes in dialogue.)

Its unreasonable to expect other PCs to have the same skills you use for a living





I don't see why they couldn't just try doing the same thing without an Intimidate check, and I just decide that yes, it does work, or no, it doesn't work, based on what they said or did.


Because they shouldnt have to do the same thing their character can. Do you make a player shoot a fireball from his hand every time he casts a spell? No? then you shouldnt require the player to be able to intimidate you when he wants to intimidate an NPC...




Again, I don't see why the rolling part is nessicary. Basically, I just prefer freeform roleplaying when it comes to social interaction.


See above

Kaeso
2010-10-19, 09:47 AM
*Blinks*

I'm sorry, what? Where does it say that? There aren't genetics in D&D.


He has a point about the sorcerer (they're supposed to be descendants from dragons) but on the flip side, there's a whole load of characters that gain magic from other ways:
1. Wizards learn magic purely by studying.
2. Clerics and favoured souls gain magic through their faith/deity.
3. Rangers and Druids gain magic through their devotion to nature.
4. Paladin gain magic through their devotion to justice and good.
5. Warlocks gain their magic through fey's or fiends.

So in the end, the "UMD can't be used by rogues because their magic isn't genetical" doesn't make any sense either way, though it's defendable that a sorcerer's magic is genetical.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:50 AM
Because they shouldnt have to do the same thing their character can. Do you make a player shoot a fireball from his hand every time he casts a spell? No? then you shouldnt require the player to be able to intimidate you when he wants to intimidate an NPC...

I don't expect them to intimidate me. I can't recall the last time I felt real fear. I just expect them to make some semblance of a convincing arguement, which is easier when you're wearing body armor and pointing a sword at someone. Besides, I would take their CHA score into account.


1. Wizards learn magic purely by studying.

By learning the way magic works and working with it. They can't use things that specifically say "only orcs can use this" if they aren't orcs, either.


2. Clerics and favoured souls gain magic through their faith/deity.
3. Rangers and Druids gain magic through their devotion to nature.
4. Paladin gain magic through their devotion to justice and good.

Divine magic works differently than arcane magic. And it's still a case of working with the system rather than against it.


5. Warlocks gain their magic through fey's or fiends.

Don't have Warlocks anyway.

Greenish
2010-10-19, 09:52 AM
I'm not an actor either. I seem to do fairly well. (On the other hand, I am a writer who specializes in dialogue.)But you (presumably) game with other people. You know, different from you, different strengths and weaknesses, different likes and dislikes, the works. As in, not carbon copies of you.
I don't see why they couldn't just try doing the same thing without an Intimidate check, and I just decide that yes, it does work, or no, it doesn't work, based on what they said or did.But then the character doesn't matter, only the player. (Except that you're of course a perfect adjucator of everything.)

Really? In my experience survival horror gaming is "ohgodohgodI'mgoingtodierunawaynowI'mcorneredkillit killitkillitholycrapI'malive."Wouldn't you say it's more like "oh, a monster, I'll try to run"…

…"well, now I can roll that barbarian, I guess".

If your characters keep dying all the time, you just stop caring.

prufock
2010-10-19, 09:53 AM
I'm trying to have a highly, but not completely, lethal campaign. Middle ground, y'know?

Same advice applies: give them an extra level or two.

FelixG
2010-10-19, 09:53 AM
The more and more about this that i read seems more like LARPing would be more the speed of what the OP wants than a pen and paper RPG

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 09:54 AM
Ok, here's the issue, you've got a proscriptive method. That means if it's not even a minimal attempt, you don't allow it to work. That's a punishment.

Some of us prefer the rewarding option. That means if you try harder, and come up with something good, you get rewarded. No punishment, just encouragement.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:56 AM
Wouldn't you say it's more like "oh, a monster, I'll try to run"…

…"well, now I can roll that barbarian, I guess".

Running has thus far been a successful tactic for my players. (When they don't barricade themselves in a building, that is.)


If your characters keep dying all the time, you just stop caring.

They've died once.

Kaeso
2010-10-19, 09:56 AM
I don't expect them to intimidate me. I can't recall the last time I felt real fear. I just expect them to make some semblance of a convincing arguement, which is easier when you're wearing body armor and pointing a sword at someone. Besides, I would take their CHA score into account..

Which is the exact same skill checks do, except you can put some more fluff around it (for example, a character with a low cha that has invested alot in diplomacy could be a nobleman that took oratory classes).

Greenish
2010-10-19, 09:57 AM
They've died once.I only know what you've told us: "TPK every four sessions". :smalltongue:

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:59 AM
Which is the exact same skill checks do, except you can put some more fluff around it (for example, a character with a low cha that has invested alot in diplomacy could be a nobleman that took oratory classes).

Except skill checks are random. Roleplaying isn't. Problem with Diplomacy and the like is that if you roll a 20 you've given a world-class speach. If you roll a 1 you called the person's mother a whore. It's weird.

On a tangent consideration, I think I'll just roll Intimidate into Bluff.


I only know what you've told us: "TPK every four sessions". :smalltongue:

I said I'm trying to avoid that. Given that we're about 7 sessions in, if this upcoming bear incident goes foul it will be a TPK every four sessions.


Ok, here's the issue, you've got a proscriptive method. That means if it's not even a minimal attempt, you don't allow it to work. That's a punishment.

Some of us prefer the rewarding option. That means if you try harder, and come up with something good, you get rewarded. No punishment, just encouragement.

I do both.

Jarian
2010-10-19, 10:01 AM
Okay, subtle hints didn't seem to have any effect.

Psycho, I think there is a serious disconnect between you and your players, if your players are anything like anyone I have ever gamed with. Killing them (I'm heaping "pitting them against unreasonably strong encounters and expecting them to somehow survive" in with killing them) seems to be fun for you, but only you. This isn't even a situation where making moderately optimized characters would help - from what I've read of your threads thus far, they pretty much need to break out the big guns to even stand a chance. And, really, do you expect new players to be able to do that? Or want to?

People want to play the game, not create an endless loop of characters to be thrown into a meat grinder, unless they knowingly signed up for a meat grinder. I haven't seen any indication that your players did. This is a Bad Idea that is setting off every alarm on my PC-radar. I strongly advise that you consider the advice given to you by pretty much everyone so far, rather than continuing to brush it off.

Now, I could be completely wrong here. Maybe your players love this type of game. But I'm guessing that before long Replacement Cleric #42 is going to have as much personality as a scarecrow, since there's no point in investing time or energy in something that's going to die in the next encounter anyway - if there's even a player for Replacement Cleric #42.

You know your players better than us, but please, think about what's going on and address the situation honestly - is everyone having fun, or is it just you?

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 10:04 AM
You know your players better than us, but please, think about what's going on and address the situation honestly - is everyone having fun, or is it just you?

They're having fun. Believe me, this concern has arisen for me. I can't even hold a conversation with somebody without worrying that I might be boring them with self-centered, rambling contemplations. Running something as big as a DnD game requires the same thing, only a hundredfold moreso.

Greenish
2010-10-19, 10:05 AM
Except skill checks are random. Roleplaying isn't. Problem with Diplomacy and the like is that if you roll a 20 you've given a world-class speach. If you roll a 1 you called the person's mother a whore. It's weird.There are no auto-fails or auto-successes on skill checks. If you want modifiers (ie. how good the characters are) to have a larger effect, consider using bell curve rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm) for skill checks.

Kaeso
2010-10-19, 10:05 AM
Except skill checks are random. Roleplaying isn't. Problem with Diplomacy and the like is that if you roll a 20 you've given a world-class speach. If you roll a 1 you called the person's mother a whore. It's weird.

Let's start with nobody who is willing to parlay with another would randomly call his/her mother a whore. Secondly, yes, they are random. That's because giving a speech is also random. A speech may look absolutely wonderfull and inspiring to you, but does that also apply to another person? That's sheer luck (wether good or bad). Of course, if you had something like oratory lessons, ettiquette classes or just alot of experience with giving speeches (read: skill ranks in diplomacy) the odds of you giving a better speech or coming up with more inspiring arguments drastically increases.

If we were to use a real life example of this, I would like to refer to myself (in b4 calling me arrogant). I'm a law student and very shy and introverted, but whenever I have to legally defend a statement I'm very confident about my skills. Just don't ask me to ask a stranger for directions... In DnD terms that would translate to a low charisma score (8 or something) but lots of ranks in diplomacy (or profession (legal)).

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 10:05 AM
I do both.

Yeah, I don't think you get it, the problem is doing the first one at ALL. Most of us apparently favor picking the latter over the former.

At least to the degree you've chosen. I can certainly respect saying "Person X will not be intimidated" in advance, but it seems you excised it from the game?

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-19, 10:06 AM
I've posted a number of threads in the last few weeks asking for advice with my campaign, and one of the frequent bits of info I've gotten is that I have a tendancy to throw tough monsters at crappy players. Not wanting to bring my players here, since that would limit my ability to drop campaign spoilers with impunity, I've instead decided to bring their characters here and see what you fine folks can do with them to make them suck less.

One fact that I need to get off the bat right away is that the starting rolls I use is 1d6 +8, rerolling if the total bonus is less than +2. This leads to fairly low-powered characters to begin with, yes, but it also means nobody will be rolling 7s. :smallannoyed:

Anyway, here's a list of the characters, giving name, race, alignment, class, ability scores, feats, skills, and (if they're casters) typical spells prepared. If you need further info, I'll happily give it.

I only allow material from the following books, so please limit advice as much:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Libris Mortis
Draconomicon
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Manual of the Planes

With the exception of the following barred material:

Base Classes:
Bard
Monk
Warlock
Wu Jen

Prestige Classes:
Bear Warrior
Dirgesinger
Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis
Dracolyte
Dragon Lyrist
Enlightened Fist
Gnome Giant-Slayer
Halfling Outrider
Mystic Theurge
Pale Master
Red Wizard
Sacred Warder of Bahamut
Seeker of the Song
Shadowdancer
Stonelord
Sublime Chord
Thayan Knight
True Necromancer
Unholy Ravager of Tiamat
War Chanter

Skills:
Diplomacy
Gather Information
Intimidate
Use Magic Device

Feats:
Axiomatic Strike
Extra Invocation
Extra Spell Secret
Guardian Spirit
Draconic Breath
Draconic Claw
Draconic Flight
Draconic Heritage
Draconic Legacy
Draconic Power
Draconic Presence
Draconic Resistance
Draconic Skin
Transdimensional Spell

Anu Ra, CN Elf Druid 2
STR - 11
DEX - 11
CON - 12
INT - 13
WIS - 14
CHA - 9

Skills:
Handle Animal - 5 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Sense Motive - 3 Ranks
Spellcraft - 5 Ranks
Spot - 3 Ranks
Survival - 2 Ranks
Swim - 4 Ranks

Feats:
Endurance

Typical Spells Prepared:
0 - Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Light, Purify Food and Drink
1st - Speak With Animals, Entangle, Endure Elements

Erpo, LG* Human Hexblade 2
STR - 14
DEX - 10
CON - 10
INT - 9
WIS - 10
CHA - 12

Skills:
Hide - 4 Ranks
Move Silently - 1 Rank
Speak Language (Common)**

Feats:
Run
Stealthy

Hikari, NG Elf Ranger*** 2
STR - 12
DEX - 15
CON - 9
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 10

Skills:
Balance - 4 Ranks
Climb - 4 Ranks
Concentration - 5 Ranks
Handle Animal - 2 Ranks
Hide - 4 Ranks
Jump - 2 Ranks
Listen - 5 Ranks
Move Silently - 4 Ranks
Ride - 2 Ranks
Search - 2 Ranks
Spot - 3 Ranks
Survival - 3 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Toughness
Track (Class Feat)
Rapid Shot (Class Feat)

Kharn, CN Human Barbarian 2
STR - 14
DEX - 12
CON - 13
INT - 11
WIS - 12
CHA - 10

Skills:
Balance - 2 Ranks
Climb - 3 Ranks
Escape Artist - 2 Ranks
Heal - 2 Ranks
Hide - 3 Ranks
Jump - 2 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Survival - 2 Ranks
Swim - 2 Ranks
Use Rope - 2 Ranks

Feats:
Endurance
Diehard

Kyojin Kurosu, CE Elf Rogue 1/Cleric of Doresain 1
STR - 9
DEX - 16
CON - 11
INT - 9
WIS - 12
CHA - 11

Skills:
Bluff - 5 Ranks
Escape Artist - 2 Ranks
Forgery - 2 Ranks
Listen - 2 Ranks
Move Silently - 3 Ranks
Open Lock - 2 Ranks
Sense Motive - 2 Ranks
Slight of Hand - 3 Ranks
Spot - 2 Ranks
Survival - 5 Ranks

Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting

Typical Spells Prepared (Chaos, Destruction):
0 - Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance, Inflict Minor Wounds
1 - Hide From Unded, Detect Undead
1D - Inflict Light Wounds

Miyat Agar, LN Elf Samurai 2
STR - 14
DEX - 15
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 9
CHA - 10

Skills:
Climb - 4 Ranks
Jump - 4 Ranks
Listen - 2 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (Class Feat)
Two-Weapon Fighting (Class Feat)

Miyat Sanguis, LN Elf Samurai 2
STR - 14
DEX - 14
CON - 11
INT - 11
WIS - 11
CHA - 12

Skills:
Climb - 5 Ranks
Jump - 5 Ranks

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (Class Feat)
Two-Weapon Fighting (Class Feat)

* Houseruled out the "nongood" requirement, since it seemed arbitrary and out of place.
** Characters in this setting are never innately bilingual (i.e., Elves only know Elven, not Elven and Common). Since Erpo was raised in an Elven nation, her first language was Elven, and due to her low INT she needed to spend skill points to speak Common as well.
*** Martial Variant from CW.

Move stats up to something 32 point buy. A player can get 18, 16 and 14 on the 3 stats most important to them, and leave everything else as 8. Even if a character has a lot of MAD issues, they'll be fine under this system.

Next, turn the samurai into fighters. Give them roleplay bonuses for following the samurai code or whatever.

Finally, get more players like the guy who plays Kharn in there. The other players look somewhat like Weeaboos.

Problem solved.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-19, 10:06 AM
Wait, so how does someone use Intimidate in combat to shaken a foe if you don't allow the skill?
Do they say something intimidating and it works?

Samurai need to be able to do this (heck they have class features for it). Unless you give them a bonus feat for the loss abilities.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 10:09 AM
Wait, so how does someone use Intimidate in combat to shaken a foe if you don't allow the skill?
Do they say something intimidating and it works?

Samurai need to be able to do this (heck they have class features for it). Unless you give them a bonus feat for the loss abilities.

I'll be converting them to Fighters anyway.

Besides, the ability that requires Intimidate doesn't kick in 'til 6th level.


Yeah, I don't think you get it, the problem is doing the first one at ALL. Most of us apparently favor picking the latter over the former.

*shrug* Then don't play in my games.

Loren
2010-10-19, 10:11 AM
"ohgodohgodI'mgoingtodierunawaynowI'mcorneredkilli tkillitkillitholycrapI'malive."

It's the last part of that which is critical to maintain the survival aspect of horror/survival. At low levels a single death often causes a parties defences to collapse, leading to a TPK as the characters become isolated. At low levels high lethality often is the same thing as TPKer.
This may help explain the prevalence of meelees in the party. Casters are squish and therefore dependant on defenders to keep them safe. Defenders however, are still able to hold their own for at least a little longer if a comrade goes down and therefore an appealing option. However, with out a caster they lack alot of offensive capability, which can turn combat into a meatgrinder. Without a strong source of healing hp become precious, so the players want to avoid prolonged combat. One of the best things this party can do is restore balance in roles. They need a full cleric, particularly if they are facing lots of undead. Maybe even two. A full arcanist (wizard, sorc) should give them some offencive creativity (although the druid may be filling that role). They can keep a stong frontline, but the party balance is way too defencive. Even if we could supe up the individual characters there is a limit to what that will accomplish for the party.

On another point, there was an interesting comment about a page back about making the encouters interesting for you, the dm. What in particular interests you? Do you want to see how people react to difficult situations? Are you interested in exploring tactical options? Is this a roleplay heavy or combat heavy game? world building seems to be a big thing, is this true?

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 10:15 AM
On another point, there was an interesting comment about a page back about making the encouters interesting for you, the dm. What in particular interests you? Do you want to see how people react to difficult situations? Are you interested in exploring tactical options? Is this a roleplay heavy or combat heavy game? world building seems to be a big thing, is this true?

Roleplay heavy, world building is one of my greatest passions, and my biggest complaint towards not wanting easy encounters is that most of the stories I want to run don't quite allow that. (For example, my effigy creatures? Weakest constructs I could find. Normal ones require a Caster Level of like 16 to make.)

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 10:17 AM
*shrug* Then don't play in my games.

I probably wouldn't. But you are the one asking for help, so we're trying to give it.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 10:20 AM
I probably wouldn't. But you are the one asking for help, so we're trying to give it.

True. It's just that after a few pages I get weary of all the "your DM style is fundamentally flawed" nagging and it all starts to sound like "you are a horrible person and the DMG should file a restraining order against you."

Kudaku
2010-10-19, 10:21 AM
I'd love to hear the player's side of this - I know you stated previously you don't want them to use this forum since you keep asking for help/advice here, but numerous DMs share this forum with their players and simply start their threads with a "x, please don't read this". How about giving your players a link to this thread and we can hear their side of the story?

Earthwalker
2010-10-19, 10:21 AM
My suggestions for next session.
Step one, explain to everyone your intent, quoting the above about running from the world. If its true remind them running also gets you xp.
Step two: Give everyone D6 -1 to every stat. To make up for the poor stats.
Step three: Everyone please choose one knowledge skill at rank one. I need to make sure it makes sense for your character.
Step four: Everyone gets the skills knowledge: Purge at rank 2.
This skill is used to understand and overcome the undead in my campaign world. We will have a special mechanic that will allow you to better survive this world. Only characters with a knowledge: purge are able build up a purge pool.
If you successful deal with an encounter (or just run from one) then you make a knowledge purge roll. A success on a dc of 15 gives you one purge point. These build up and can be spent on, clues and information. Also some monsters (different zombies) have different weaknesses that you can find by spending purge points.
(this mechanic can also be used to deal with hauntings and other weird goings on in a horror campaign)
Please feel free to ignore all this but you want to give your players a chance and let them overcome some opponents, purge points can also be used to help with dice rolls or other effects in game. Its just an idea sort of copied from Torg and its horror realm mechanic.
You can even use purge points as a tax, one they have killed a suitable monster that regenerates, they can spend purge to keep them dead.

It needs more work but the general idea is this is a buff to your characters. It will make the game focused on investigation and survival. Chances to get purge points by running away (rewarding behavior you like) also if they sucessfully investigated situations or just role play well to get information you also give them purge points.

One final note.

The world can’t all be grim dark, you need to show some light to give it contrast. You want the players scared and ready to run but they also have to care enough to want to go on. If you aren’t carful the players will just give up completely.

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 10:26 AM
True. It's just that after a few pages I get weary of all the "your DM style is fundamentally flawed" nagging and it all starts to sound like "you are a horrible person and the DMG should file a restraining order against you."

I understand, but sometimes to the other people, they get weary of you just bulldozing past their suggestions and ideas.

It feels like you don't want to listen to the help others have to offer.

Street goes both ways.

Anyway, for your issue regarding combat, you have two options. Either power up your players or power-down your monsters.

If you go the former, make it temporary and reversible. If you go the latterr, just don't explain it.

reversing words.

Loren
2010-10-19, 10:27 AM
would you be at all interested in developing your own creatures? The MM's simply do not provide all the tools s/he may want. This page http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#levelAdjustmentandEffectiveC haracterLevel can provide alot of infromation about how monsters are created. You could use them to adjust the per-existing monsters or even draft some from scratch. this way you can present challenges that are more level appropriate, but that fit the role you want them too. I know it can be more work, it can be really satisfying when you have your diabloical creation, and relieving when your not pulling out your hair as the players struggle to understand how their character can survive and remain true to their concept.

as a tangent, if you really like world building have you ever thought of trying GURPS? I hear it is really good for creative GMs who want to make a game that fits their sensiblities. As I've never tried it I'm sure others here know more than I.

senrath
2010-10-19, 10:30 AM
I'd also consider finding another system to use. D&D doesn't really work well for survival horror games, in my experience.

elpollo
2010-10-19, 10:30 AM
Or they could ask a random peasant on the street the exact same question, and get the same result without any rolling.

They could. Or they could roll a random number generator on the table and save you having to come with a name, appearance, backstory, motivation, etc. for this peasant, and it doesn't waste time. I have no problem with the characters befriending someone they've saved or whatever, but it's supposed to be an exciting roleplaying game, not a "befriend an approximation of a medieval peasant" sim.



I don't see why they couldn't just try doing the same thing without an Intimidate check, and I just decide that yes, it does work, or no, it doesn't work, based on what they said or did.

Why have dice at all? It's difficult to start saying "Why roll this when I can decide myself" and to not arbitrarily decide when to stop.



Mainly because with point buy, you always suck. With random generation, occasionally you get lucky and have like 4 18s.

Are you under some impression that you can't be an effective character without 3+ stats over 16 or something? You can have game breaking characters (i.e. full casters) starting with 14 in their primary stat who will still break the game by the end.



I'm sure that was supposed to prove me wrong. I think it's the most awesome thing I'll read all day.

I'll grant you I didn't go into the conversations enough - what can I say, I lack commitment. What I was angling at (in a hopefully humorous way) was that your idea of roleplaying every encounter in full was rediculous. You have hundreds of insignificant social interactions in a day - if you want to experience that go outside, don't play a roleplaying game.



1) There is if I say there is.
2) Sorcerers have magical "bloodlines" if that makes you any happier.

Yeah, bloodlines, and you can definately argue a case for genetics and physics and everything in the game, but it doesn't work like that. It's magic. You've got a dragon ancestor? His magic has worked its way down to you. How? Magic. Any attempt to apply real life science to D&D results in minds being melted. And not in the good way.



I don't expect them to intimidate me. I can't recall the last time I felt real fear. I just expect them to make some semblance of a convincing arguement, which is easier when you're wearing body armor and pointing a sword at someone. Besides, I would take their CHA score into account.

Why not take their Intimidate score into account?



Except skill checks are random. Roleplaying isn't. Problem with Diplomacy and the like is that if you roll a 20 you've given a world-class speach. If you roll a 1 you called the person's mother a whore. It's weird.

That's an intrinsic problem with using a d20 system, as well as perhaps an expectation problem. Stop thinking of 1 and 20 as auto-success or auto-fail (not respectively). You have the same chance of rolling a 1 as an 11 - does 11 have some special result?

Also I support the use the 3d6/2d10/whatever as people have suggested for skill rolls. Gets rid of this problem somewhat.

Tytalus
2010-10-19, 10:32 AM
So in the end, the "UMD can't be used by rogues because their magic isn't genetical" doesn't make any sense either way, though it's defendable that a sorcerer's magic is genetical.

It's a bit along the lines of the "non-casters can't have nice things" mindset.

Ormagoden
2010-10-19, 10:46 AM
I'm trying to have a highly, but not completely, lethal campaign. Middle ground, y'know?




If they choose to fight any encounter except an intentionally overpowering one (say, the Kyton from two sessions back), they should be able to win with two PC casualties at the most.


I don't think two casualties every combat is middle ground...

/snark

But really after reading these posts two things strike me right away.

The inexperience of both the Players and the DM.

You've called your player's Crappy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9582615&postcount=1), Stupid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9583678&postcount=34), and Lazy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9583946&postcount=45).

You've basically said that you want to run your game this way and if the players don't like it they can go to HELL (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9583861&postcount=42). (IE: somewhere else)

That's really not a good attitude to have when your trying to have a good time with friends.

You are basically sacrificing their fun so you can have the fun all to yourself by sadistically killing them over and over. Because as you said that is what is fun to you.

I sure as heck wouldn't like having to gen a character once or twice every session...




Well, it's not like I'm the only DM in town. Miyat Agar's player even expressed interest in running a campaign last week. I know I'd like to let go of the reigns once in a while. I'm probably gonna get grey hairs by age 20 doing this. :smalltongue:


Emphasis mine. This quote right above... the bold part is a key sign that your players are losing interest in your game. I think the consequences of getting grey's before your 20 are understated. You'll have no friends by the age of 20. well, at least no friends that will want to play RPGs with you as a DM anyhow...

Kaeso
2010-10-19, 10:47 AM
It's a bit along the lines of the "non-casters can't have nice things" mindset.

:p Isn't that the mindset WotC had anyway?

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 10:50 AM
I sure as heck wouldn't like having to gen a character once or twice every session...


Depends on the game system.

Not as a rule any of the ones that rhyme with Funions and Flagons.

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 10:54 AM
Depends on the game system.

Not as a rule any of the ones that rhyme with Funions and Flagons.

mmmmmmm...Funions....:smalltongue:

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 10:55 AM
You are basically sacrificing their fun so you can have the fun all to yourself by sadistically killing them over and over. Because as you said that is what is fun to you.

Assuming they're not having fun themselves. Everyone here seems to be completely convinced that the only reason I think they are is because I'm too dense to tell otherwise.


Emphasis mine. This quote right above... the bold part is a key sign that your players are losing interest in your game. I think the consequences of getting grey's before your 20 are understated. You'll have no friends by the age of 20. well, at least no friends that will want to play RPGs with you as a DM anyhow...

Believe it or not, it's possible to run a campaign and play in one at the same time. When he said "I'm thinking about running my own campaign," he wasn't saying "I'm thinking about dropping out of your campaign." Hell, he and Miyat Sanguis's player are already in another campaign being run by a mutual friend.


They could. Or they could roll a random number generator on the table and save you having to come with a name, appearance, backstory, motivation, etc. for this peasant, and it doesn't waste time. I have no problem with the characters befriending someone they've saved or whatever, but it's supposed to be an exciting roleplaying game, not a "befriend an approximation of a medieval peasant" sim.

Different strokes, different folks. Personally, I'd find it refreshing to play an RPG with more emphasis on casual interaction.


Why have dice at all? It's difficult to start saying "Why roll this when I can decide myself" and to not arbitrarily decide when to stop.

The arbitrary line is "social interaction." Easy enough.


Are you under some impression that you can't be an effective character without 3+ stats over 16 or something? You can have game breaking characters (i.e. full casters) starting with 14 in their primary stat who will still break the game by the end.

I'm under the impression that point buy means you either have one good stat and five crappy stats, or six average stats.


I'll grant you I didn't go into the conversations enough - what can I say, I lack commitment. What I was angling at (in a hopefully humorous way) was that your idea of roleplaying every encounter in full was rediculous. You have hundreds of insignificant social interactions in a day - if you want to experience that go outside, don't play a roleplaying game.

See above. I actually love those little social interactions in an RPG. I would rather spend more time doing those and less time slaying dragons.


Why not take their Intimidate score into account?

That's an intrinsic problem with using a d20 system, as well as perhaps an expectation problem. Stop thinking of 1 and 20 as auto-success or auto-fail (not respectively). You have the same chance of rolling a 1 as an 11 - does 11 have some special result?

Also I support the use the 3d6/2d10/whatever as people have suggested for skill rolls. Gets rid of this problem somewhat.

What I'm hearing here is "whine whine whine, deviating from RAW is a sin." But I may just be cranky.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-19, 10:57 AM
Assuming they're not having fun themselves. Everyone here seems to be completely convinced that the only reason I think they are is because I'm too dense to tell otherwise.

I never said that.

I do frind it frustrating to ban so much though.

Jarian
2010-10-19, 11:02 AM
Assuming they're not having fun themselves. Everyone here seems to be completely convinced that the only reason I think they are is because I'm too dense to tell otherwise.

It's actually because everyone else* has an aversion to the way your game is running in general. This is okay in theory. We are not your players, and we don't know every detail of your game. Reread that, and keep it in mind when reading the (requested by you, attempts at being helpful) advice.

*Potential exaggeration to illustrate point.

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 11:08 AM
Assuming they're not having fun themselves. Everyone here seems to be completely convinced that the only reason I think they are is because I'm too dense to tell otherwise.

I don't think it's density, I think it's VERY HARD to tell. Like Sense Motive or Insight out the max difficulty.

Ormagoden
2010-10-19, 11:11 AM
Assuming they're not having fun themselves. Everyone here seems to be completely convinced that the only reason I think they are is because I'm too dense to tell otherwise.

At this rate they are actually going to run out of base classes they haven't used already. 1-2 character deaths per session and the 20-30 minutes it takes to gen a character (closer to 45-60 in your groups case) absolutely sucks. It's like taking a D&D questionnaire every time you die. It's boring and time consuming.

I actually think it's plainly obvious that you know they aren't having fun; otherwise you would not have come here seeking advice.



Believe it or not, it's possible to run a campaign and play in one at the same time. When he said "I'm thinking about running my own campaign," he wasn't saying "I'm thinking about dropping out of your campaign." Hell, he and Miyat Sanguis's player are already in another campaign being run by a mutual friend.

But how long before the people in your game stop showing up to play another? Everyone can't make free time for multiple game sessions every week. Which game do you think you would drop in that case? The one where you have to make a new PC every session and get brow beat by the DM into feeling inferior? Generic fantasy warriors? YES PLEASE!

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 11:21 AM
I actually think it's plainly obvious that you know they aren't having fun; otherwise you would not have come here seeking advice.

Or it could be because I find the chargen time-consuming, and nothing else. :smallannoyed:


But how long before the people in your game stop showing up to play another? Everyone can't make free time for multiple game sessions every week. Which game do you think you would drop in that case? The one where you have to make a new PC every session and get brow beat by the DM into feeling inferior? Generic fantasy warriors? YES PLEASE!

Wouldn't that of happened by now? It's not like the other campaign started recently.

Loren
2010-10-19, 11:23 AM
I for one am not against players being put in the squeeze. Arkham Horror is one of my favourite boardgames. The only concern about the game as a whole I have is that it might not in the right system. Currently, it sounds like its stretching out of the box D&D to and maybe past the breaking point. Homebrewing level appropriate monsters may solve this. Alternatively, given the DM's interest in world building (and game making, given all the house rules) I suspect that he would find the freedom of GURPS refreshing and invigorating, but changing systems requires willingness on everyones part to learn a new system.

As for the characters, doesn't sound to me as if they are dropping once or even multiple times a session. There wouldn't be anypoint in critiquing their characters if they did. While some relatively small adjustments can be made to them (better ability roles being chief among them and already planned) I think the biggest problem the party is facing internally is its poor make up. Someone dedicated to healing is critical, particularly with that many frontliners. As it stands, I think that the reason the party is not doing well is a) ablities, and b) class selection. Time needs to be invested in building teams as well as characters.

Furthermore, I think Psycho deserves a compliment for seeking advise. DM's shouldn't brow beat their players and teachers shouldn't brow beat their students.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-19, 11:25 AM
True. It's just that after a few pages I get weary of all the "your DM style is fundamentally flawed" nagging and it all starts to sound like "you are a horrible person and the DMG should file a restraining order against you."

Leaving aside the hyperbole, why do you think the same advice is given by a great many different people in every thread you start?

In each of them, you criticize those who are attempting to advise you, and ignore most of the advice. As a result, you are then asking questions again in a short time about the same problem. What do you think the underlying cause of this is, and how do you wish to resolve it?

I think the idea that your players and the posters who wish to offer you advice are all the problem is fairly unplausible.

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 11:27 AM
Leaving aside the hyperbole, why do you think the same advice is given by a great many different people in every thread you start?

In each of them, you criticize those who are attempting to advise you, and ignore most of the advice. As a result, you are then asking questions again in a short time about the same problem. What do you think the underlying cause of this is, and how do you wish to resolve it?

I think the idea that your players and the posters who wish to offer you advice are all the problem is fairly unplausible.

Look for the point of commonality. I don't think it's the posters and players. But who am I to judge?

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 11:29 AM
Look for the point of commonality. I don't think it's the posters and players. But who am I to judge?

Because the problem can only have one source. :smallannoyed: I'm not saying I'm blameless. I'm saying I'm not the only one.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-19, 11:33 AM
Because the problem can only have one source. :smallannoyed: I'm not saying I'm blameless. I'm saying I'm not the only one.

Nobody said the problem only had one source...lets look at a few common themes in the advice.

1. The system you are using is not good for the style you want.
2. The request you have is at odds with your houserules.
3. Your players evidently do not share your enthusiasm for this style.

All of those have come up with a great deal of frequency, in this thread and others. Look at those commonalities, and look at options for fixing them. If you simply band-aid over the issue by letting them change a few feats or what not, the underlying problems are not fixed, and will recurr.

Jarian
2010-10-19, 11:39 AM
Because the problem can only have one source. :smallannoyed: I'm not saying I'm blameless. I'm saying I'm not the only one.

This is actually a really defensive stance to jump to immediately. I get that most of the comments have been opposing your general outlook on the game, but understand that we've been trying to help. Consider the following neutrally-stated points.


You are likely running the wrong system for the style of game you're trying to play.
Players in general do not enjoy games with as high a lethality rate as the one you are seeking.
The options available to your players in the current system are limited and will lead to less optimized characters than otherwise likely. This leads to a lower party power even without optimization, as options = situational power.
Your PCs have incredibly weak stats, and could continue to have them even with the suggested method of generating rerolled stats. A point buy system ensures that everyone is on equal footing and can be assumed to have a certain level of stat-power, which makes it easier to plan encounters that are challenging without being TPK-worthy due to Party Member #4 rolling poorly.


I could add more, but really, this condenses most of the major points being made while weeding out criticism, I think.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 11:42 AM
3. Your players evidently do not share your enthusiasm for this style.

Where are you getting this one besides your own assumptions?


This is actually a really defensive stance to jump to immediately. I get that most of the comments have been opposing your general outlook on the game, but understand that we've been trying to help. Consider the following neutrally-stated points.


You are likely running the wrong system for the style of game you're trying to play.
Players in general do not enjoy games with as high a lethality rate as the one you are seeking.
The options available to your players in the current system are limited and will lead to less optimized characters than otherwise likely. This leads to a lower party power even without optimization, as options = situational power.
Your PCs have incredibly weak stats, and could continue to have them even with the suggested method of generating rerolled stats. A point buy system ensures that everyone is on equal footing and can be assumed to have a certain level of stat-power, which makes it easier to plan encounters that are challenging without being TPK-worthy due to Party Member #4 rolling poorly.


I could add more, but really, this condenses most of the major points being made while weeding out criticism, I think.

These are legitimate points, and thank you for expressing them neutrally.

Item the First: True. But my funds are limited and those are the books I have, and the game system I know.

Item the Second: Generally, yes. But players in general are not my concern. If my players expressed distaste for my style, I would consider loosening the vicegrips a bit. Thus far, they have not, and indeed expressed something closer to grudging admiration for my sadism. Either way, people tend to leave my games with a smile on their face.

Item the Third: Point conceded. It is again, a mixture of poor funds (thus limited sourcebooks) and a plot-heavy setting that can't allow for certain material because it simply doesn't fit.

Item the Fourth: A legitimate concern. If I find that their rolled stats are either too variant (like one rolls a yahtzee and the other gets triple snake eyes, to be extreme) or simply bad in general, I will simply have them reroll until I'm satisfied. However, rolling for stats is simply a preference of mine, so that won't be changing soon.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-19, 11:45 AM
Where are you getting this one besides your own assumptions?
I'm not sure where Jarian gets that idea, but maybe: because they don't build optimized characters.

kestrel404
2010-10-19, 11:48 AM
It really sounds to me like you want to want to be playing Call of Cthulu.

It's not a problem with the character optimization - although the fact that there are 2 samurai in the starting lineup when you've banned intimidate is a good indicator that the players aren't really thinking about their characters from a game mechanics standpoint. But that's not the real problem.

The real problem is that you're trying to use 3.5 D&D to play something that doesn't work well in 3.5 D&D. It's kind of like trying to use your dishwasher to wash your laundry - sure you can do it, but it's going to leave you with a broken dishwasher and damaged laundry.

The game world you're talking about sounds a lot like Earthdawn. The play style you're talking about sounds a lot like Call of Cthulu. Try out a new system - you needn't stop the game, just convert the current characters to a new system. If you want conversion of those characters into Earthdawn terms, I'd be more than happy to do so. If you want to convert to CoC, I'm sure someone here would happily help.

Hope that helps.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 11:51 AM
I'm not sure where Jarian gets that idea, but maybe: because they don't build optimized characters.

Because they're newbies. I didn't optimize at that point in my gaming career either. I've said this like three times now.


It really sounds to me like you want to want to be playing Call of Cthulu.

I've been told this before. My main problem with CoC (besides not being medieval fantasy) is that it's another set of rules I'd need to memorize. No, thank you.

Loren
2010-10-19, 11:54 AM
You are likely running the wrong system for the style of game you're trying to play.
This, right here is the one key issue. D&D is a flexible game. How are encounters adjusted to allow the PC's to succeed in the face of the other challenges they face?

Players in general do not enjoy games with as high a lethality rate as the one you are seeking.
there are exceptions. this group may be one.

The options available to your players in the current system are limited and will lead to less optimized characters than otherwise likely. This leads to a lower party power even without optimization, as options = situational power.
the only core things missing are monks and bards, the two weakist classes. Of the missing skills UMD is the only one of great significance. It can largely be over come by providing more potions (this may cause a clash with the setting, but in and of itself is not a huge hurdle).

our PCs have incredibly weak stats, and could continue to have them even with the suggested method of generating rerolled stats.
I don't thing the new system of stats is too bad. It has an a probable value around 13 and ranges from 10 to 18. Point buy is nice, and there isn't much reason not to use it, but this is acceptible as well.

Tytalus
2010-10-19, 11:55 AM
Item the First: True. But my funds are limited and those are the books I have, and the game system I know.


Then run actual D&D. It's much better suited to the games you want than the your house-ruled version that gives the short end of the stick to the players yet pitches them against overwhelming challenges.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 11:58 AM
Then run actual D&D. It's much better suited to the games you want than the your house-ruled version that gives the short end of the stick to the players yet pitches them against overwhelming challenges.

"Run actual DnD" and "games I want" are mutally exclusive concepts. :smallannoyed: That would be the primary source of dissent in this thread to begin with.

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 12:01 PM
If D&D is not the game you want, which is a perfectly valid and reasonably opinion, I think you're going to have to suck up and learn some other systems.

Either that, or find ways to change D&D that aren't as counter-productive as these are believed to be for you.

Loren
2010-10-19, 12:02 PM
Psycho: to clear things up a bit, can you please tell us what you do to make your concept fit in D&D? I don't necessarily think they are multualy exclusive, but I want to understand how the session works. As it is we see the players side. If we could see behind the screen more maybe some of this discussion would clear up.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-19, 12:16 PM
Where are you getting this one besides your own assumptions?

You invariably describe it as "I want to run a survival/horror campaign", never "my players want a survival horror campaign" or similar. Your players sound like they want to play, but I have yet to see you describe their preference for this style of game.

However, we do have things like them wanting to adopt the robot animals trying to eat them as pets. This sounds like they're having fun with said robot animals, but not in a survival/horror way.

I suspect they're just playing the game because, well, that's the game. They sound like relatively new players, and probably don't have a great degree of familiarity with game styles. In short, if you opt to drift away from survival/horror a bit, they probably won't be protesting.


Item the First: True. But my funds are limited and those are the books I have, and the game system I know.

A great many free systems exist. And frankly, your frequent misinterpretations of the rules indicate that you do not have a great depth of knowledge with D&D. You can attain an equal familiarity with another system relatively quickly. In fact, D&D 3.5 is a pretty complex, rules heavy system. You can learn most other systems more rapidly.


Item the Second: Generally, yes. But players in general are not my concern. If my players expressed distaste for my style, I would consider loosening the vicegrips a bit. Thus far, they have not, and indeed expressed something closer to grudging admiration for my sadism. Either way, people tend to leave my games with a smile on their face.

Players are often polite people. They might like some things, and not be terribly fond of others, but overall, enjoy playing. Often, they'll take the good with the bad rather than complaining. I've seen this a lot, and it can often be very difficult to know exactly what it is the players have a problem with. It's much easier to complement someone on what they did right than criticize what went wrong.

This is doubly true when you have your heart set on a given style. If you really, really like a given setting, system, etc, it can be hard to accept that other people just don't care about it as much as you do.


Item the Third: Point conceded. It is again, a mixture of poor funds (thus limited sourcebooks) and a plot-heavy setting that can't allow for certain material because it simply doesn't fit.

The first one is an external problem, and thus, is hard to fix. I reccomend surfing ebay and the like for inexpensive sourcebooks when you get cash, but this may still be difficult. However, I got the majority of my extensive collection of 3.5 books for under $10, with quite a lot for $5 or under.


Item the Fourth: A legitimate concern. If I find that their rolled stats are either too variant (like one rolls a yahtzee and the other gets triple snake eyes, to be extreme) or simply bad in general, I will simply have them reroll until I'm satisfied. However, rolling for stats is simply a preference of mine, so that won't be changing soon.

Why is it a preference? All of us have them, but when running a game, it's valuable to analyze your preferences, and find the source of them. Sometimes, you can find an alternative means of scratching that itch that works even better.

If your current system requires rerolling due to variance, then the variance is too high. Use a system with less of it. 6+2d6 has less variance than 3d6, for instance. 4d6b3 has less variance than 3d6. 3d6 has less variance than d8+d10, but still has quite a bit.

Tytalus
2010-10-19, 12:23 PM
"Run actual DnD" and "games I want" are mutally exclusive concepts.

My point is that you apparently want your players to survive four encounters/sessions in a row. D&D does that a whole lot better than your modified system, where you nerf the players power/options and boost their opposition.

Loren
2010-10-19, 12:26 PM
a side thought on financing a new system, the basic set for GURPS in PDF is $55 (about the same for hardcover on Amazon) and CoC in soft cover is $25 (on Amazon). If your entire group wanted to convert (an frankly there is no point if they don't) a small donation to the table should cover the cost (For the cost of a going to see a movie a piece we all get a better game we'll play for far longer).
E-bay can produce even better deals

Greenish
2010-10-19, 12:31 PM
the only core things missing are monks and bards, the two weakist classes.Objection! Bards are, in fact, awesome. Even in Core-only (which this game isn't), they're pretty decent, and most certainly don't deserve to be lumped together with monks.
Of the missing skills UMD is the only one of great significance.Objection! Intimidate can be a great asset in fights when properly done, and bluff is made of awesome.

Loren
2010-10-19, 12:35 PM
points conceded,
counter, they tend not to be well done by beginners, which this groups sounds like it is. Ergo, the functional difference difference is minimal.

elpollo
2010-10-19, 12:37 PM
Assuming they're not having fun themselves. Everyone here seems to be completely convinced that the only reason I think they are is because I'm too dense to tell otherwise.

It's nothing personal. There's just a lot of precedence.



I'm under the impression that point buy means you either have one good stat and five crappy stats, or six average stats.

You could just use more points. Or accept that 14 isn't crappy at level 1.



See above. I actually love those little social interactions in an RPG. I would rather spend more time doing those and less time slaying dragons.

I enjoy social interactions in RPGs - that's why I game. What I don't enjoy is making awkward smalltalk with a man in my friend's head who I'm never going to 'meet' again.



What I'm hearing here is "whine whine whine, deviating from RAW is a sin." But I may just be cranky.

I'm interested in how you got that from me specifically saying "go away from the RAW. You know those 20 sided dice that the D20 system is founded on them? Not a fan. I support the use of 3d6/2d10/whatever for skill checks". I suspect you are cranky.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 12:38 PM
Psycho: to clear things up a bit, can you please tell us what you do to make your concept fit in D&D? I don't necessarily think they are multualy exclusive, but I want to understand how the session works. If we could see behind the screen more maybe some of this discussion would clear up.

Well, the biggest change to default is my Rifts. I'm not going to elaborate on that, because it's a BIG can of worms that's caused probably all total a dozen pages of ranting over it.

Besides that, let's see... I houserule alot of things.

- Arcane and Divine don't coexist. A divine caster that attempts to become an arcane caster automatically falls, and an arcane caster is simply not granted any divine power to begin with.
- Elves sleep like everyone else, are not immune to sleep, and aren't immune to ghoul paralysis. Their lifespan is also significantly shortened to around 300 years.
- I have a long list of banned spells, some because I think they're broken, but most because arcane casters are not permitted to interact in divine domains. So no necromancy whatsoever. I also used to ban teleportation and planar spells, but changed it so arcane casters are simply limited to the Elemental Planes.
- No Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane, or Plane of Shadow. Spells or classes that intrinsically involve these are also banned.
- Completely rearranged Summon spells. This is a step up from my previous stance, which banned them altogether.
- Turn Undead replaced with Censure Enemy of Faith, which is based on the Knight of the Chalice's Censure Demons ability.
- All skills are class skills.
- Disable Device does not work on magical traps.
- Paladins and Rangers use CW Martial Variant.
- Races only innately speak one language, depending on their home nation. So most Elves don't speak Common, and Humans raised in other nations usually don't either, speaking the local lingo instead.
- The maximum innate score for any ability is 20 + Racial Modifier. Bonuses gained from effects like wish or ability score-increasing Tomes qualify as Racial Modifiers for this purposes. Age modifiers do not.
- The most class levels a character can gain is 20, period.
- At 10th level, characters gain a low-level template appropriate to them. Those loyal to Gruumsh, Hextor or Kord (the Western Gods of this setting) gain the Fiendish template. Those loyal to Corellon Larethian, Heironeous, or Pelor (the Eastern Gods) gain the Celestial Template. Those loyal to Nerull, Orcus or Doresain (the Gods of Death) gain nothing while they're alive, but undead characters gain the Evolved Undead template. Those loyal to Ehlonna or Obad-Hai (the Gods of Life; a third one will turn up eventually :smalltongue:) can trade in class levels for the RHD of a natural lycanthrope of their choice. Arcane casters gain either a Pseudonatural or Elemental template as appropriate to them. Those who don't qualify as any of those get nothing, because the universe hates them. :smallamused:
- At 20th level, those with the Fiendish template have it replaced with the Half-Fiend template. Those with the Celestial template have it replaced with the Half-Celestial template. Those with the Evolved Undead template simply gain another one. Natural lycanthropes gain the Dire variant of their chosen form. Pseudonaturals... I dunno yet. Elementals become Half-Elementals. Those with none of these continue to suck.
- Any character attempting to shapeshift using spells or abilities such as Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange or Wild Shape may only take a number of forms equal to (Caster Level x Inherent INT Modifier). In order to obtain a new form, they must study the form (be it the actual creature, a detailed anatomical sketch, or a lengthy text description) for 10 minutes. If they are interrupted at any point during this study, they must start the 10 minutes over again before they can obtain the form.
- There is a 1% chance of any given animal being Dire. Dire Animals carry the Curse of Lycanthropy. As such, Wererats are actually fairly common in big cities, making up a chunk of the lower class.
- There are no dragons. Seriously. No dragons at all in this Dungeons and Dragons campaign. They'll be introduced as a major plot point when the party is MUCH higher level.
- With no dragons, anything based on dragons is banned by proxy. The exception being Sorcerers, which were simply retconned to being the decendants of elementals and abberations. Squicky, I know. Somebody got it on with Cthulhu.
- The Undead aren't inherently evil. Mindless undead are True Neutral, Mummies tend to be Lawful Neutral. Ghouls and Vampires, being the spawn of Doresain, are normally evil, however. There are exceptions, but the Horror Hunger commonly overwhelms morality.
- Fiends and Celestials are by and large replaced with Fiendish Orcs and Celestial Elves with class levels.

That's all I can recall at the moment.

EDIT: I'm aware that the bolded is probably a Very Bad Idea.


You invariably describe it as "I want to run a survival/horror campaign", never "my players want a survival horror campaign" or similar. Your players sound like they want to play, but I have yet to see you describe their preference for this style of game.

However, we do have things like them wanting to adopt the robot animals trying to eat them as pets. This sounds like they're having fun with said robot animals, but not in a survival/horror way.

I suspect they're just playing the game because, well, that's the game. They sound like relatively new players, and probably don't have a great degree of familiarity with game styles. In short, if you opt to drift away from survival/horror a bit, they probably won't be protesting.

With the exception of two, all of them have played in different campaigns with radically different styles. I wouldn't even say I was the most brutal amonst them. (That award would go to the DM of the Northlands campaign I did a journal about. I still have fond memories of that. :smallamused:)


Players are often polite people. They might like some things, and not be terribly fond of others, but overall, enjoy playing. Often, they'll take the good with the bad rather than complaining. I've seen this a lot, and it can often be very difficult to know exactly what it is the players have a problem with. It's much easier to complement someone on what they did right than criticize what went wrong.

This is doubly true when you have your heart set on a given style. If you really, really like a given setting, system, etc, it can be hard to accept that other people just don't care about it as much as you do.

You don't know my players. Most of them are just as twisted as I am. And given that I actively seek criticism (hence why I haven't just left this thread without ever looking back), it's not about me being in denial. If they don't want to do this, I want them to tell me, so that I can move on to something everyone can enjoy. They know this, and have given no complaints.


The first one is an external problem, and thus, is hard to fix. I reccomend surfing ebay and the like for inexpensive sourcebooks when you get cash, but this may still be difficult. However, I got the majority of my extensive collection of 3.5 books for under $10, with quite a lot for $5 or under.

Cash is one thing. A PayPal account is something else entirely.


I enjoy social interactions in RPGs - that's why I game. What I don't enjoy is making awkward smalltalk with a man in my friend's head who I'm never going to 'meet' again.

It's not awkward if they're good at it. :smallamused: Some of my favorite bits of gaming have come from those moments.

Ormagoden
2010-10-19, 12:42 PM
If D&D is not the game you want, which is a perfectly valid and reasonably opinion, I think you're going to have to suck up and learn some other systems.

Either that, or find ways to change D&D that aren't as counter-productive as these are believed to be for you.

I don't agree with this statement. I've used D&D to play a successful "zombie apocalypse" game just fine.

The main problem is we have two things at the "wrong ends of the stick".

Lethal campaign/Poor characters.

Having a lethal campaign is manageable if you have well built (and non nerfed) characters.

Having poor characters is manageable if you have a less lethal campaign style.


This is your main problem Psycho. This is regardless of your lack of books or banned classes and home brew. With all the advice in this thread (The good, the bad, and the snarky.) What do you think you can do to balance these two opposed situations?

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 12:48 PM
I think you missed the second sentence there. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-10-19, 12:50 PM
I don't agree with this statement. I've used D&D to play a successful "zombie apocalypse" game just fine.

I've played several. They all tend to end up more or less alike, but they're aright. You fight a bunch of basic undead stuff. This continues as normal people everywhere get munched. You run a bit, loot a bit, and gather any survivors you can. If you don't check survivors extensively for bites, and you're playing contagious zombies, this invariably results in someone you "save" turning. Then regular zombies get boring, and you fight special zombies. Then generally the casters or whomever is behind the zombies. It's not necessarily bad, but zombies are an extremely well explored idea, and as a result, the unusual possibilities that exist are limited.

Now, a horror campaign can go beyond zombies, but horror is not a function of numbers or statistics. It's a function of causing fear and suspense in your players. Having a 12 str instead of a 15 will not innately cause me, the player to be fearful. Wondering how the hell the room I just heard a child singing in is empty might. Rolling a fort save when consuming a delicious stew in the inn made my players puzzled, not scared. It was merely a clue. Finding the pile of bodies in the icehouse behind the inn affected them much more.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-19, 12:50 PM
Well, the biggest change to default is my Rifts. I'm not going to elaborate on that, because it's a BIG can of worms that's caused probably all total a dozen pages of ranting over it.

Besides that, let's see... I houserule alot of things.

I saw. Wow.


- Arcane and Divine don't coexist. A divine caster that attempts to become an arcane caster automatically falls, and an arcane caster is simply not granted any divine power to begin with.

So no Mystic thurges. Fine.


- Completely rearranged Summon spells. This is a step up from my previous stance, which banned them altogether.

Rearranged?


The maximum innate score for any ability is 20 + Racial Modifier. Bonuses gained from effects like wish or ability score-increasing Tomes qualify as Racial Modifiers for this purposes. Age modifiers do not.

I don't think this will be a problem: no one has got above 20 yet.


- With no dragons, anything based on dragons is banned by proxy. The exception being Sorcerers, which were simply retconned to being the decendants of elementals and abberations. Squicky, I know. Somebody got it on with Cthulhu.

So that leaves out Dragon fire Adepts and Dragon Shamans.


- The Undead aren't inherently evil. Mindless undead are True Neutral, Mummies tend to be Lawful Neutral. Ghouls and Vampires, being the spawn of Doresain, are normally evil, however. There are exceptions, but the Horror Hunger commonly overwhelms morality.

This is the only logical thing you did that I 100% support.



Now, a horror campaign can go beyond zombies, but horror is not a function of numbers or statistics. It's a function of causing fear and suspense in your players. Having a 12 str instead of a 15 will not innately cause me, the player to be fearful. Wondering how the hell the room I just heard a child singing in is empty might. Rolling a fort save when consuming a delicious stew in the inn made my players puzzled, not scared. It was merely a clue. Finding the pile of bodies in the icehouse behind the inn affected them much more.

Remind me of the time I ate stew after killing the giants.

I didn't realize it was made out of dwarf. Didn't spit it up: too disrespectful and tasted great.

Ormagoden
2010-10-19, 12:50 PM
I think you missed the second sentence there. :smallbiggrin:

Not really... I also don't think D&D needs to be changed all that much to suit a specific need. It's rather modular and flexible.



<Snip>

I'd have to agree. Suspense is important, I ran my sessions quite well in regards to that. Rich and flawed NPCs and well described settings are much more important than any game mechanic for that kind of campaign genre. That is more or less a tangent though.

Getting back on track with the main discussion, I think since we don't have any information or opinion's directly from the players in Psycho's campaign that we won't ever really be able to help him.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:01 PM
Rearranged?

I analyzed the CRs of every creature on each level of Summon Monster, and when I found the high end of the average (there were a few outliers), I made that the cap of the level and all mosnters on the list had to fit that guideline. It was:

I - CR 1/2
II - CR 1
III - CR 2
IV - CR 4
V - CR 5
VI - CR 7
VII - CR 9
VIII - CR 11
IX - CR 13

Then I changed the lists. Summon Nature's Ally got animals, dire animals, vermin, and plants. Arcane casters got Summon Monster replaced with Summon Alien, which contained Aberrations, suitably weird Magical Beasts, Chaos Beasts, and everything already mentioned, but with the Pseudonatural template applied.

Haven't done the divine variant yet, but it'll probably just contain animals with either the Fiendish, Celestial, or Umbral templates applied. (Based on the Cleric's chosen diety.)

PopcornMage
2010-10-19, 01:05 PM
Not really... I also don't think D&D needs to be changed all that much to suit a specific need. It's rather modular and flexible.


Well, be that as it may, Psycho expressed a dissatisfaction with it, and a desire to change it.

So I rolled with it. If you wish to disagree with him on his desires, I point you in his direction.

Loren
2010-10-19, 01:05 PM
Ok, now what I notice is that basically all of that applies to PCs. At low levels, much of it is a negative impact. Hey, that's no problem in my book.
From what I understand, you want to use thematically appropriate monsters. Correct?
Now, low levels weren't well balanced by WotC and tend to be the most lethal. Consequently, low level characters struggle against even appropriate challenges. As a result, many DMs refer to using kiddy gloves when handling PCs under level 4 or 5, particularly with new players. Very often the way a situation will play out is the DM will say "ooo there is a big scary moster coming to get you he looks real tough," but the DM as actually shaved hp off or fudges rolls so that the PC's will be challenged but not in real danger. In short, they cheat on behalf of the PCs so that the PCs get beat to a bloody plup, but survive instead of getting dropped by one or two bad rounds.
Given the scenario you're describing everything seems to be against the PC when they are the most volunerable.

So is there anyway you debuff monsters? do you draft up level appropriate challenges when there are no thematically appropriate ones in the MM/refluff existing ones? Do you drop goodies when they need them ("gee look, all the zombies were carrying healing potions, none of which broke durning the fight, what are the odds," "hey look, an abandoned coat store, well I get the zombie shopkeeper won't be needing any of those fine fur coats anymore.")?
Basically, what are you doing as a DM to keep the PCs alive?

Ormagoden
2010-10-19, 01:06 PM
I analyzed the CRs of every creature on each level of Summon Monster, and when I found the high end of the average (there were a few outliers), I made that the cap of the level and all mosnters on the list had to fit that guideline. It was:

I - CR 1/2
II - CR 1
III - CR 2
IV - CR 4
V - CR 5
VI - CR 7
VII - CR 9
VIII - CR 11
IX - CR 13

Then I changed the lists. Summon Nature's Ally got animals, dire animals, vermin, and plants. Arcane casters got Summon Monster replaced with Summon Alien, which contained Aberrations, suitably weird Magical Beasts, Chaos Beasts, and everything already mentioned, but with the Pseudonatural template applied.

Haven't done the divine variant yet, but it'll probably just contain animals with either the Fiendish, Celestial, or Umbral templates applied. (Based on the Cleric's chosen diety.)

Are you applying the +LA to the creature for the template you are applying? If so an arcane caster with summon alien wouldn't be able to summon a creature until they could cast summon alien IV.

If you aren't applying them then your summoning CR averages are off. A psuedonatural wolf is CR 1 + whatever the psuedonatural template gives.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:10 PM
Are you applying the +LA to the creature for the template you are applying? If so an arcane caster with summon alien wouldn't be able to summon a creature until they could cast summon alien IV.

If you aren't applying them then your summoning CR averages are off. A psuedonatural wolf is CR 1 + whatever the psuedonatural template gives.

I'm applying the +CR, not the +LA. For the most part, it doesn't effect it overmuch. A Choker with the Pseudonatural template is still CR 2.

It's 1-3 HD - +0 CR, 4-11 HD - +1 CR, 12+ HD - +2 CR.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-19, 01:10 PM
- At 10th level, characters gain a low-level template appropriate to them. Those loyal to Gruumsh, Hextor or Kord (the Western Gods of this setting) gain the Fiendish template. Those loyal to Corellon Larethian, Heironeous, or Pelor (the Eastern Gods) gain the Celestial Template. Those loyal to Nerull, Orcus or Doresain (the Gods of Death) gain nothing while they're alive, but undead characters gain the Evolved Undead template. Those loyal to Ehlonna or Obad-Hai (the Gods of Life; a third one will turn up eventually :smalltongue:) can trade in class levels for the RHD of a natural lycanthrope of their choice. Arcane casters gain either a Pseudonatural or Elemental template as appropriate to them. Those who don't qualify as any of those get nothing, because the universe hates them. :smallamused:
- At 20th level, those with the Fiendish template have it replaced with the Half-Fiend template. Those with the Celestial template have it replaced with the Half-Celestial template. Those with the Evolved Undead template simply gain another one. Natural lycanthropes gain the Dire variant of their chosen form. Pseudonaturals... I dunno yet. Elementals become Half-Elementals. Those with none of these continue to suck.


[INCOMPREHENSIBLE RAGE]

KORD IS NOT A CHAOTIC EVIL GOD HE IS A CHAOTIC GOOD THEY'D JUST GAIN CELESTIAL ABILITIES BUT REPLACE EVERYTHING LAWFUL WITH IT'S CHAOTIC EQUIVALENT.

[INCOMPREHENSIBLE RAGE]

Kylarra
2010-10-19, 01:13 PM
This doesn't really address the overall problem, but why not just give diehard to all your PCs? This frees up feat slots on half your players for other things and allows the critically wounded player to keep fighting and/or shamble back to the group.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:14 PM
[INCOMPREHENSIBLE RAGE]

KORD IS NOT A CHAOTIC EVIL GOD HE IS A CHAOTIC GOOD THEY'D JUST GAIN CELESTIAL ABILITIES BUT REPLACE EVERYTHING LAWFUL WITH IT'S CHAOTIC EQUIVALENT.

[INCOMPREHENSIBLE RAGE]

Kord isn't evil in this setting either. Nor are Fiends. The Elves and Eastern Humans just consider them as much. Fiends are [Evil] however, and thus Smite Evil and detect evil work on them.

Loren
2010-10-19, 01:16 PM
or just 10 hp to max or use the 4E starting HP (total con score +hd)

Tyndmyr
2010-10-19, 01:16 PM
So is there anyway you debuff monsters?

Given examples so far have been corpsecrafted 'slody undead and effigy wolves/bear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172153). I believe the first caused a TPK, and the second is a current situation in which a TPK seemed probable, so he popped on to ask about it mid-fight before next session.

In both cases, the advisability of somewhat optimized templated monsters against an extremely underpowered party was under significant debate. I believe the first step towards debuffing would be avoiding use of template stacking. It can increase a mob quite a lot in proportion to CR when the templates are well selected.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-19, 01:17 PM
Kord isn't evil in this setting either. Nor are Fiends. The Elves and Eastern Humans just consider them as much. Fiends are [Evil] however, and thus Smite Evil and detect evil work on them.

So....you lack the creativity to come up with a chaotic good template and decided to make both the fluff and a few mechanics bend over backwards to fit?

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:18 PM
In both cases, the advisability of somewhat optimized templated monsters against an extremely underpowered party was under significant debate. I believe the first step towards debuffing would be avoiding use of template stacking. It can increase a mob quite a lot in proportion to CR when the templates are well selected.

Bolded would be my reason for starting this thread.

And the only reason I'm using effigy creatures is that I can't find any weaker constructs. :smallsigh:


So....you lack the creativity to come up with a chaotic good template and decided to make both the fluff and a few mechanics bend over backwards to fit?

Because non-evil Fiends is uncreative. :smallannoyed: As for the fluff and mechanics bending over backwards:
- It's my own fluff. It didn't need to bend at all.
- Mechanics? Even non-evil Fiendish Outsiders qualify as [Evil] for the purposes of smiting and whatnot. That's not new.

Jarian
2010-10-19, 01:20 PM
And the only reason I'm using effigy creatures is that I can't find any weaker constructs. :smallsigh:

Step 1: Apply "DM-template" to wolf.
Step 2: Change type from "Animal" to "Construct"
Step 3: Adjust stats accordingly. Do not alter anything else.

Done. Isn't that a neat way of changing something to a construct?

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:21 PM
Step 1: Apply "DM-template" to wolf.
Step 2: Change type from "Animal" to "Construct"
Step 3: Adjust stats accordingly. Do not alter anything else.

Done. Isn't that a neat way of changing something to a construct?

That's essentially what the Effigy template does. :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2010-10-19, 01:21 PM
Given examples so far have been corpsecrafted 'slody undead and effigy wolves/bear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172153). I believe the first caused a TPK, and the second is a current situation in which a TPK seemed probable, so he popped on to ask about it mid-fight before next session.

In both cases, the advisability of somewhat optimized templated monsters against an extremely underpowered party was under significant debate. I believe the first step towards debuffing would be avoiding use of template stacking. It can increase a mob quite a lot in proportion to CR when the templates are well selected.The zombies also were not limited to 1 action/round, making them significantly more powerful in that means as well.

Cleverdan22
2010-10-19, 01:23 PM
So....you lack the creativity to come up with a chaotic good template and decided to make both the fluff and a few mechanics bend over backwards to fit?

Sounds more like he decided to apply an interpretation mechanically that a lot of people have come across by reading OotS. That is, that "Evil" beings aren't neccessarily EVIIIILLL. Geez.

kestrel404
2010-10-19, 01:24 PM
Make one up!

Template - Animal Construct - this template may be applied to any animal. It changes the animal's type to construct. This removes its constitution score. The animal gets +2 str and -2 dex and is immune to effects that target animals. Animal constructs are generally made from the stitched together hides of slain animals and do not look particularly natural from up close. From far away it is difficult to see the stitches under the fur, but you can tell there is something unnatural about them.

How about that?

Jarian
2010-10-19, 01:24 PM
That's essentially what the Effigy template does. :smalltongue:

+2 NA (Your chance to hit just dropped by 10% guys), DR 1/adamantine (Your damage just dropped by about 20% guys).

At level 2, especially for your party, these changes are huge when applied across the board to an encounter.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:26 PM
Make one up!

Template - Animal Construct - this template may be applied to any animal. It changes the animal's type to construct. This removes its constitution score. The animal gets +2 str and -2 dex and is immune to effects that target animals. Animal constructs are generally made from the stitched together hides of slain animals and do not look particularly natural from up close. From far away it is difficult to see the stitches under the fur, but you can tell there is something unnatural about them.

How about that?

That's essentially what the Effigy template does. :smalltongue:

Covered that already.


+2 NA (Your chance to hit just dropped by 10% guys), DR 1/adamantine (Your damage just dropped by about 20% guys).

At level 2, especially for your party, these changes are huge when applied across the board to an encounter.

What if I added a few ad hoc conditions, like a -2 to DEX and STR due to their joints freezing in the cold?

Jarian
2010-10-19, 01:32 PM
What if I added a few ad hoc conditions, like a -2 to DEX and STR due to their joints freezing in the cold?

It's pretty hard to give you an accurate answer when someone isn't aware of certain details, incidentally. If you're going to make houserules to fix something, all well and good, but why not just DM-magic a different template onto them already?

Loss of 20% damage on average and 5% chance to hit can still have a very large impact on a low level encounter, incidentally. Especially when you consider your PC makeup.

elpollo
2010-10-19, 01:32 PM
So....you lack the creativity to come up with a chaotic good template and decided to make both the fluff and a few mechanics bend over backwards to fit?

What are you, an avatar of Kord? This seems a little harsh.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:37 PM
It's pretty hard to give you an accurate answer when someone isn't aware of certain details, incidentally.

Well, it had already been brought up in the other thread. I just hadn't thought to mention it again.


If you're going to make houserules to fix something, all well and good, but why not just DM-magic a different template onto them already?

Because I've already got the Effigy Wolf and Effigy Bear typed up, and typing up a different sheet is more difficult than just remembering a couple of modifiers to toss into that I can just stop using when the PCs suck less.


Loss of 20% damage on average and 5% chance to hit can still have a very large impact on a low level encounter, incidentally. Especially when you consider your PC makeup.

Which this thread was about remedying. So far we've got:

- Rerolling ability scores.
- Converting Samurai into Fighters.
- Recommending better spell lists.

ShellBullet
2010-10-19, 01:42 PM
Just out of curiosity, what kind of power level do you want the players characters to be? It's clear that you don't want them to be overpowered heroes who slay dragons left and right or dying in every battle like Joe Avarage? Do you want them to be best of best within limits of human potential, or merely people who are "only" good at their chosen craft. What I am trying to point out that different heroes can have vastly OH****RUNFORYOURLIVES horror monsters, Your avarage 1st level warrior will experience same amount of fear if they are facing a ogre mage or ancient red dragon, despite dragon being much more powerful of two. Meanwhile medium level party would only be cautious with ogre mage, while they would be frozen horror if they had to face dragon.
I thing you need to define what kind of horror/survivor game you want to play? No, highly lethal isn't defined enough. Do you want to them to be avarage joes who manages to barely survive an encounter with you basic to zombies or powerful heroes who battle amongs gore and blood against horned devil, making use all of their powers to take that near death victory? Or something between.

Jarian
2010-10-19, 01:43 PM
- Rerolling ability scores.

Will have an unreliable outcome on the game and can't really be taken into account until we know what they are.


- Converting Samurai into Fighters.

Will turn two crappy feats into two slightly less crappy but still pretty bad feats. The Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) and all of its maneuvers are available online. Asking somebody to play a fighter in a game with druids and clerics is like punching them in the face, except you get to do it every time they level up.


- Recommending better spell lists.

Will help a little at level 2, but your undead and constructs are immune to many of the biggest level 1 offenders. Entangle and Grease will screw your meleers over as much as the enemies for the most part, and they're immune to Color Spray and Sleep.

Loren
2010-10-19, 01:44 PM
Don't templates usually have an LA associated with them? That said, I give them little credit as celestial is LA 0 at low levels, and no draw back

would it be possible to level monsters down? (I ask from my own lack of knowledge) You could use the monster creation rules to reverse engineer monsters. example,
let's take a chimera skeleton (CR 4), but we want it to be CR 2
hd 9d12 = 58hp (so it's a lvl 9 undead, let's make it a lvl5, like the owl bear, which is CR2)
hd 5d12 = 32
initiative and speed should stay the same +6, and 30 ft respectively
AC the same

half the bab to +2 therefore bites at +5
damage should remain the same
so hits a bit less than the owlbear skely, but harder.
I'm not sure what to do with all its attacks. As I DM I'd limit what it could do in a single round, but keep the options to make it a more interesting combatant.

saves the same as the owlbear skeli Fort 1, ref 3, and will 4

everything else is from the base, undead and skeleton template

So the decrepit chimera skel above looks still looks nasty with reach and hard hitting attacks, but it hits less often than an owl bear skeli.

Alternatively, it might be easier just to make the owlbear large and reduce it's attack or damage for balance reasons and describe it as a chimera.

Eldariel
2010-10-19, 01:47 PM
Will turn two crappy feats into two slightly less crappy but still pretty bad feats. The Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) and all of its maneuvers are available online. Asking somebody to play a fighter in a game with druids and clerics is like punching them in the face, except you get to do it every time they level up.

Meh, it's a huge step up. Now they can two-hand, use efficient weapons, pick up Trip and so on. It should work out nicely, especially if they learn the awesome that is a toolbox of weapons for different situations.


Will help a little at level 2, but your undead and constructs are immune to many of the biggest level 1 offenders. Entangle and Grease will screw your meleers over as much as the enemies for the most part, and they're immune to Color Spray and Sleep.

That depends on the aim. Entangle/Grease only screws melees if it's aimed thusly; if the enemies are near the edge, they can just be attacked from the outside. Also, it isn't out of the question to make a strategic retreat to bunch enemies up, especially if they are mindless and thus lack a concept of strategy. Also, Enlarge Person, Bless and so on would be huge in a party like this.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:47 PM
Just out of curiosity, what kind of power level do you want the players characters to be? It's clear that you don't want them to be overpowered heroes who slay dragons left and right or dying in every battle like Joe Avarage? Do you want them to be best of best within limits of human potential, or merely people who are "only" good at their chosen craft. What I am trying to point out that different heroes can have vastly OH****RUNFORYOURLIVES horror monsters, Your avarage 1st level warrior will experience same amount of fear if they are facing a ogre mage or ancient red dragon, despite dragon being much more powerful of two. Meanwhile medium level party would only be cautious with ogre mage, while they would be frozen horror if they had to face dragon.
I thing you need to define what kind of horror/survivor game you want to play? No, highly lethal isn't defined enough. Do you want to them to be avarage joes who manages to barely survive an encounter with you basic to zombies or powerful heroes who battle amongs gore and blood against horned devil, making use all of their powers to take that near death victory? Or something between.

Competant, but not superpowered. Mortal, but not helpless. A force of change, but more through sheer tenacity and luck than through overwhelming power.


Will have an unreliable outcome on the game and can't really be taken into account until we know what they are.

True, but it'll more likely than not be an improvement over the current situation.


Will turn two crappy feats into two slightly less crappy but still pretty bad feats. The Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) and all of its maneuvers are available online. Asking somebody to play a fighter in a game with druids and clerics is like punching them in the face, except you get to do it every time they level up.

As opposed to a Samurai, which is like knifing someone in the face every level.

I'll take the fist, thanks.


Will help a little at level 2, but your undead and constructs are immune to many of the biggest level 1 offenders. Entangle and Grease will screw your meleers over as much as the enemies for the most part, and they're immune to Color Spray and Sleep.

There's always fire.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-19, 01:50 PM
Bolded would be my reason for starting this thread.

And the only reason I'm using effigy creatures is that I can't find any weaker constructs. :smallsigh:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm

Found by going to the SRD, and searching for constructs. It was on page 1. A quick refluff, and bam, you have a balanced encounter. The medium one looks pretty good for a CR 2 encounter as is.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 01:55 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm

Found by going to the SRD, and searching for constructs. It was on page 1. A quick refluff, and bam, you have a balanced encounter. The medium one looks pretty good for a CR 2 encounter as is.

Completely forgot about that. I'll use that in the future as "prototype" effigies.

Wabbajack
2010-10-19, 02:01 PM
By RAW animated objects have the hardness of the material they are made of, and even wood has a hardness of 5. That's basically like DR 5/- against weapon AND spells.

Loren
2010-10-19, 02:07 PM
hardness is the same as the original object... which on a medium object would not be insignificant. I'd expect that common sence on the part of the dm would negate some hardness issues with small objects.

prufock
2010-10-19, 02:09 PM
So far we've got:

- Rerolling ability scores.
- Converting Samurai into Fighters.
- Recommending better spell lists.

I hate to repeat myself, so I'll make it in the form of a question: why is increasing character level not an option?

ericgrau
2010-10-19, 02:12 PM
I skimmed the thread best I could within a few minutes, so excuse me if I missed anything.


I analyzed the CRs of every creature on each level of Summon Monster, and when I found the high end of the average (there were a few outliers), I made that the cap of the level and all mosnters on the list had to fit that guideline. It was:

I - CR 1/2
II - CR 1
III - CR 2
IV - CR 4
V - CR 5
VI - CR 7
VII - CR 9
VIII - CR 11
IX - CR 13

Then I changed the lists. Summon Nature's Ally got animals, dire animals, vermin, and plants. Arcane casters got Summon Monster replaced with Summon Alien, which contained Aberrations, suitably weird Magical Beasts, Chaos Beasts, and everything already mentioned, but with the Pseudonatural template applied.

Haven't done the divine variant yet, but it'll probably just contain animals with either the Fiendish, Celestial, or Umbral templates applied. (Based on the Cleric's chosen diety.)

That's fine and dandy... for lone monsters and nothing else summoned against the PCs. Against monsters some summons have useful special abilities too. Or even in a group of monsters + summons against PCs. A proper analysis would require looking at more than CR and in general people seem to be saying that you're house-ruling way too much. I'd take a couple steps back. Or, heck, keep all the pointless house rules. But don't waste time on more or expect them to fix anything.

But back to the real issue, if you want the players to do better then lower the CR but still make it enough to challenge them. Let them figure out the rest on their own and have fun doing it. It is a game after all, and the goal is to have the most fun. EDIT: Or, ya, level them up. Optimizing for them is a less fun method to the same goal. Why make it so complicated?

Poor feat and class choices aside, they should at least be able to do ok with those characters even if they were featless warriors. And, btw, at level 2 a fighter would be a large improvement over a samurai, ranger or multiclassed cleric. A lot of suggestions to the contrary are assuming higher levels and high optimization, when neither applies. So the barbarian seems to be the strongest of the bunch purely by class. On top of that, the 9 extra hit points at level 2 is probably the best possible build. I really wouldn't expect anyone to be better than what he is now until the party levels up a bit.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 02:28 PM
I hate to repeat myself, so I'll make it in the form of a question: why is increasing character level not an option?

No reason, I suppose. They're about halfway to leveling up as-is.

Earthwalker
2010-10-19, 02:33 PM
Which this thread was about remedying. So far we've got:

- Rerolling ability scores.
- Converting Samurai into Fighters.
- Recommending better spell lists.

My idea gets no love. Its ok its a new complication to add to the game I just think it will fit with what you are trying


My suggestions for next session.
Step one, explain to everyone your intent, quoting the above about running from the world. If its true remind them running also gets you xp.
Step two: Give everyone D6 -1 to every stat. To make up for the poor stats.
Step three: Everyone please choose one knowledge skill at rank one. I need to make sure it makes sense for your character.
Step four: Everyone gets the skills knowledge: Purge at rank 2.
This skill is used to understand and overcome the undead in my campaign world. We will have a special mechanic that will allow you to better survive this world. Only characters with a knowledge: purge are able build up a purge pool.
If you successful deal with an encounter (or just run from one) then you make a knowledge purge roll. A success on a dc of 15 gives you one purge point. These build up and can be spent on, clues and information. Also some monsters (different zombies) have different weaknesses that you can find by spending purge points.
(this mechanic can also be used to deal with hauntings and other weird goings on in a horror campaign)
Please feel free to ignore all this but you want to give your players a chance and let them overcome some opponents, purge points can also be used to help with dice rolls or other effects in game. Its just an idea sort of copied from Torg and its horror realm mechanic.
You can even use purge points as a tax, one they have killed a suitable monster that regenerates, they can spend purge to keep them dead.

It needs more work but the general idea is this is a buff to your characters. It will make the game focused on investigation and survival. Chances to get purge points by running away (rewarding behavior you like) also if they sucessfully investigated situations or just role play well to get information you also give them purge points.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 02:47 PM
My idea gets no love. Its ok its a new complication to add to the game I just think it will fit with what you are trying


My suggestions for next session.
Step one, explain to everyone your intent, quoting the above about running from the world. If its true remind them running also gets you xp.
Step two: Give everyone D6 -1 to every stat. To make up for the poor stats.
Step three: Everyone please choose one knowledge skill at rank one. I need to make sure it makes sense for your character.
Step four: Everyone gets the skills knowledge: Purge at rank 2.
This skill is used to understand and overcome the undead in my campaign world. We will have a special mechanic that will allow you to better survive this world. Only characters with a knowledge: purge are able build up a purge pool.
If you successful deal with an encounter (or just run from one) then you make a knowledge purge roll. A success on a dc of 15 gives you one purge point. These build up and can be spent on, clues and information. Also some monsters (different zombies) have different weaknesses that you can find by spending purge points.
(this mechanic can also be used to deal with hauntings and other weird goings on in a horror campaign)
Please feel free to ignore all this but you want to give your players a chance and let them overcome some opponents, purge points can also be used to help with dice rolls or other effects in game. Its just an idea sort of copied from Torg and its horror realm mechanic.
You can even use purge points as a tax, one they have killed a suitable monster that regenerates, they can spend purge to keep them dead.

It needs more work but the general idea is this is a buff to your characters. It will make the game focused on investigation and survival. Chances to get purge points by running away (rewarding behavior you like) also if they sucessfully investigated situations or just role play well to get information you also give them purge points.


Hm. Interesting. I'd change the name, though. Something like Knowledge (Bestiary). You could make a pretty big game mechanic out of it, actually... *wanders off muttering to himself.*

ShellBullet
2010-10-19, 02:49 PM
Competant, but not superpowered. Mortal, but not helpless. A force of change, but more through sheer tenacity and luck than through overwhelming power.

If I understood correctly you would like to your PC be power wise on upper spectrum of normal human limitations, An elite of humanity so to speak. You want them chip away enemies strength piece by piece, on shadowy battlefield where you don't know when that ghoul will grap your left shoulder or that zombie biting your neck as you dance with blade on your hand to keep that rotting bear away from you.

In a word you want battle of endurance with good dose of uncertainty? There are plenty of ways to to achieve this atmosphere without fearing TPK in every encounter. Since you are fond of using monsters above party CR, I would like to recommend to make it "play" with PC. Let it attack from shadows hitting once or twice and just after players have recovered from the shock have the monster to retreat shadows once more. Let PC have their imagination firing up while giving them a moment to ponder their strategies ( Make sure to make them nervous with random spot and listen checks) and then strike again quickly with same or diffrent attack. If you want them to defeat this foe, drop few hints via knowledge checks it's weaknesses ( Legends tells when ancient heroes fought monsters X, spears and hammers caused only laughter, but sword made it sweep tears.) when it looks like they have decided their strategy let the real battle begin, this time the monsters doesn't retreat to shadows.

Alternately you could harass them with weaker group of enemies like Skeletons or zombies. First strengthen their resolve by granting them victories and then slowly but surely sap that resolve sending larger and larger group from that infinite undead horde. If they run from large group make them meet smaller group, so you can continue to sap their resources and confident. Make it battle of endurance. Perhaps it would be good idea to use monsters differently to increase party survivability without compromising the high lethality mood.

Earthwalker
2010-10-19, 03:07 PM
Hm. Interesting. I'd change the name, though. Something like Knowledge (Bestiary). You could make a pretty big game mechanic out of it, actually... *wanders off muttering to himself.*

Yeah I would call it knowledge: what ever the big bad calls his powers.

I choose Purge as that was the name of a horde of undead in one of my games. As long as it sounds suitably cool really.

FelixG
2010-10-19, 04:05 PM
True. It's just that after a few pages I get weary of all the "your DM style is fundamentally flawed" nagging and it all starts to sound like "you are a horrible person and the DMG should file a restraining order against you."

I dont think anyone has said that your a bad person.

But when 99% of people (experienced people no less) suggest that something is flawed...they may have a point...

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-19, 04:46 PM
What are you, an avatar of Kord? This seems a little harsh.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172530

Basically, yeah.

World Eater
2010-10-19, 05:49 PM
From what I've read, it seems like you're using the wrong system. D&D 3.5 supports BIG DAMN HEROES SAVIN' THE WORLD AT EVERY TURN and not much else.

Merk
2010-10-19, 05:59 PM
OP - One obstacle you mentioned is that the lack of options your players have is somewhat due to lack of funds for books. I don't think the guide to free d&d (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0) has been posted yet (this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) is also useful). Consider allowing your Samurai to re-spec into Warblades, possibly using Iron Heart and Diamond Mind to capture the "feel" of samurai.

Greenish
2010-10-19, 06:12 PM
OP - One obstacle you mentioned is that the lack of options your players have is somewhat due to lack of funds for books. I don't think the guide to free d&d (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0) has been posted yet (this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) is also useful). Consider allowing your Samurai to re-spec into Warblades, possibly using Iron Heart and Diamond Mind to capture the "feel" of samurai.He doesn't use anything that's not in the books he owns.

Eldariel
2010-10-19, 07:16 PM
From what I've read, it seems like you're using the wrong system. D&D 3.5 supports BIG DAMN HEROES SAVIN' THE WORLD AT EVERY TURN and not much else.

That's pretty ridiculous. Anti-Hero games work just as well as hero games. And slamming a horror game together isn't hard at all. The system definitely has all the tools necessary to play low magic too; heck, that's where all the skills come in. Much of the material that's unusable in high magic games suddenly springs forth and becomes relevant there. Not to mention, the Life Of A Commoner-game was pretty awesome too. I really don't see which limitations pigeonhole the game to:
1) Players being heroes
2) Players being powerful
3) Game being high magic

Aside from trivial things like CR, really. Frankly, Big Damn Heroes Savin' The World evokes something like Exalted or MM2e in my mind rather than D&D 3e.

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 07:20 PM
That's pretty ridiculous. Anti-Hero games work just as well as hero games. And slamming a horror game together isn't hard at all. The system definitely has all the tools necessary to play low magic too; heck, that's where all the skills come in. Much of the material that's unusable in high magic games suddenly springs forth and becomes relevant there. Not to mention, the Life Of A Commoner-game was pretty awesome too. I really don't see which limitations pigeonhole the game to:
1) Players being heroes
2) Players being powerful
3) Game being high magic

Aside from trivial things like CR, really. Frankly, Big Damn Heroes Savin' The World evokes something like Exalted or MM2e in my mind rather than D&D 3e.

or 4) Players can't start at level 0
THAT was a fun game...
or 5) Characters must be good-aligned
Serious stereotyping...

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 07:28 PM
He doesn't use anything that's not in the books he owns.

Well, I do have 20 bucks in my pocket and a copy of ToB on the shelf of the gaming store I frequent at. But Complete Divine is next on my purchase list.

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 07:34 PM
There ya' go. Expand your collection. If you like dark horror, though, Call of Cthulhu d20 should be easily converted to fit more in line with DnD. I may suggest that instead, if it's available.

Eldariel
2010-10-19, 07:37 PM
There ya' go. Expand your collection. If you like dark horror, though, Call of Cthulhu d20 should be easily converted to fit more in line with DnD. I may suggest that instead, if it's available.

D&D isn't really all too shabby for horror though either, though it's a bit different. Having played a few games in Ravenloft, I can with experience say that the horror atmosphere comes more down to the DM's skill at creating it, than any game system and D&D definitely has enough different horrors and unspeakable things to support a horror game.

Heck, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has a long list of suggestions of how to create the feel of unease with description and unexplained anomalies (for those wanting to run the game as such). That said, in D&D horror game the players are often expected to confront some of the horrors (and maybe die or become permanently insane or possessed or some such in the process) while in CoC...well, they are expected to die.

Greenish
2010-10-19, 07:37 PM
Well, I do have 20 bucks in my pocket and a copy of ToB on the shelf of the gaming store I frequent at. But Complete Divine is next on my purchase list.Swap that around? Comp. Divine is mostly pretty normal cleric-y stuff, ToB will cause your melee'ers to burst into tears out of sheer gratefulness. :smallcool:

Eldariel
2010-10-19, 07:38 PM
Swap that around? Comp. Divine is mostly pretty normal cleric-y stuff, ToB will cause your melee'ers to burst into tears out of sheer gratefulness. :smallcool:

Not to mention, ToB is a book that's selling very, very well and hard to find so it's definitely something I'd pick up sooner than later. I've heard of them selling for 70+ dollars on Ebay.

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 07:39 PM
D&D isn't really all too shabby for horror though either, though it's a bit different. Having played a few games in Ravenloft, I can with experience say that the horror atmosphere comes more down to the DM's skill at creating it, than any game system and D&D definitely has enough different horrors and unspeakable things to support a horror game.

Heck, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has a long list of suggestions of how to create the feel of unease with description and unexplained anomalies (for those wanting to run the game as such). That said, in D&D horror game the players are often expected to confront some of the horrors while in CoC...well, they are expected to die.

To me, DnD horror is a little...meh. But then again, most horror is kind of meh nowadays. I think the last good horror movie I saw was In the Mouth of Madness. Many. Many. Years ago.

Eldariel
2010-10-19, 07:39 PM
To me, DnD horror is a little...meh. But then again, most horror is kind of meh nowadays. I think the last good horror movie I saw was In the Mouth of Madness. Many. Many. Years ago.

I find it's really just down to the person running the game rather than anything intrinsic in the system. A skilled horror master can make a grognard hide under the table with freeform for all it matters :smallcool:

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 07:43 PM
Swap that around? Comp. Divine is mostly pretty normal cleric-y stuff, ToB will cause your melee'ers to burst into tears out of sheer gratefulness. :smallcool:

Well, my thought was that I wanted to complete my "Complete" series. Only problem is that they don't have Complete Adventurer. :smallsigh:

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 07:43 PM
I find it's really just down to the person running the game rather than anything intrinsic in the system. A skilled horror master can make a grognard hide under the table with freeform for all it matters :smallcool:

Perhaps reading nonstop Lovecraft has made me more than a little jaded...

Uncertainty
2010-10-19, 07:44 PM
I find it's really just down to the person running the game rather than anything intrinsic in the system. A skilled horror master can make a grognard hide under the table with freeform for all it matters :smallcool:

Something about this post makes me want to try a Toon horror game now...

Edit: With a sufficiently horrific DM

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 07:45 PM
Perhaps reading nonstop Lovecraft has made me more than a little jaded...

I know how you feel. Like I said, I can't recall the last time I experienced legitimate fear.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-19, 07:47 PM
:smallbiggrin: What's this nonsense about 3.5 D&D being unable to support a horror game? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) :smallbiggrin:

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 07:51 PM
:smallbiggrin: What's this nonsense about 3.5 D&D being unable to support a horror game? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) :smallbiggrin:

Damnit Glyphstone, those archives are like TVTropes. Now I need to read them all again. :smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-19, 07:54 PM
:smallbiggrin: What's this nonsense about 3.5 D&D being unable to support a horror game? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, those Zergling (Starts with a K) creatures + undead if anyone dies onthat crazy island = awesome horror.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-19, 08:03 PM
Damnit Glyphstone, those archives are like TVTropes. Now I need to read them all again. :smallwink:

I live to serve the community.:smallcool:
In a nice creamy cheese sauce with vegetables on the side. Yum Yum!

Kuma Da
2010-10-19, 08:12 PM
Okay, I have only skimmed this thread most tentatively, but the impression I am getting here is "my players need to be more powerful to survive what I'm throwing at them." Correct me if I'm wrong. Please, do. But I don't know if optimization is the solution here.

If the name of the game is building as powerful a PC as possible within the errata of the system, then yes. Your PCs are crappy. But if the point is to sit down, tell a story, east some pizza, and have fun, throwing relentlessly hardcore monsters at them and then feeling frustrated when they party-wipe (or even just fail to dent the greater obsidian abyssal space-basilisk or whatever) is probably not the best way to go about it.

Yes, there is lots of crunchy mechanical fun to be had in optimizing a character. In making something powerful. But it's not required.

If this really doesn't make sense to you and you still want to up your party's mechanical competence, try switching over to pathfinder. It's still DnD, but with the twist that it's almost impossible to create a weak character.

As for horror: yes, dnd can do it well, but it's finicky business and relies a lot more on roleplaying and atmosphere than on the mechanics of the system.

Marnath
2010-10-19, 08:45 PM
I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet(if it has, I missed it between rants/walls of text) but what are these people using for gear? Can we see what they're wearing for armor and weapons? Because I've heard you mention a couple times you go well above WBL.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 08:54 PM
I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet(if it has, I missed it between rants/walls of text) but what are these people using for gear? Can we see what they're wearing for armor and weapons? Because I've heard you mention a couple times you go well above WBL.

Anu Ra:
Scimitar
Studded Leather Armor

Erpo:
Katana (Read: Bastard Sword)
"Spoon-Dagger" (Spoon with sharpened handle. Simple light piercing weapon that deals 1d4 damage.)
Chain Shirt

Hikari:
Longbow
Kodachi (Read: Longsword)
Masterwork Studded Leather Armor

Kharn:
Greataxe
Chain Shirt

Kyojin Kurosu:
Masterwork Wakizashi (Read: Shortsword)
Wakizashi
Shortbow
Dagger (x12)
Leather Armor

Miyat Agar:
Masterwork Katana
Masterwork Wakizashi
Handaxe
Kodachi
Banded Mail

Miyat Sanquis:
Masterwork Katana
Masterwork Wakizashi
Breastplate

Marnath
2010-10-19, 08:59 PM
Ok, thats pretty standard for a party their level. You might consider allowing them to find some magic gear sometime soon though, as a power boost. I'd also consider allowing them to perform those 2d6+6 stat rerolls on these characters, to give them a chance to survive the effigies they're fighting. It's not going to hurt anything story wise, since hp and stuff are abstractions anyway.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:18 PM
Ok, thats pretty standard for a party their level. You might consider allowing them to find some magic gear sometime soon though, as a power boost. I'd also consider allowing them to perform those 2d6+6 stat rerolls on these characters, to give them a chance to survive the effigies they're fighting. It's not going to hurt anything story wise, since hp and stuff are abstractions anyway.

That was the plan. And they will, at least, get a handful of masterwork items off of the legionnaires they're with, a handful of which will almost certaintly die.

Marnath
2010-10-19, 09:22 PM
That was the plan. And they will, at least, get a handful of masterwork items off of the legionnaires they're with, a handful of which will almost certaintly die.

Perhaps you can let them find a few masterwork heavy maces on older victims of the effigies near the camp after the battle, to give them bludgeoning capability? They may not use them but you'll have tried.

Drakevarg
2010-10-19, 09:33 PM
Perhaps you can let them find a few masterwork heavy maces on older victims of the effigies near the camp after the battle, to give them bludgeoning capability? They may not use them but you'll have tried.

Unfortunately, wouldn't make sense canonically. Standard Legionnaire equipment is Breastplate, Heavy Steel Shield, Shortsword and Composite Longbow, all masterwork. On the other hand, milita are kind of rag-tag, and two of the ones the party is with carry morningstars (non-masterwork). Better than nothing.

Leon
2010-10-20, 12:31 AM
(For example, my effigy creatures? Weakest constructs I could find. Normal ones require a Caster Level of like 16 to make.)

Your the DM - Take Base construct creature and TONE it down to a lower lever to suit the game - you can do that, you don't have to play everything at full power.

Recently our group fought a slaughterstone eviscerator, it was toned down greatly as the real deal would have shredded our group in a very short order - as it was it messed us up a fair bit before we got it under control.

As the DM you dont need to worry if the CL is this or that, if its important for the plot its at Plot CL.



Because they're newbies. I didn't optimize at that point in my gaming career either. I've said this like three times now.


If they are new players then let them be new players and learn how things work by playing the game at its basic un modded level before you throw them into a deep horror survival with limits on many things.


What i would like to see is your players on here and hear what they think of everything as all we are getting is your PoV

Lev
2010-10-20, 12:43 AM
Maybe you should change your DMing style.
^Seems to be the consensus.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-20, 12:49 AM
I would like to hear from the players personally.

true_shinken
2010-10-20, 09:22 AM
Oh, man. I just have to say it.
A kodachi is not a longsword.
Longsword = about 1m blade.
Kodachi = about 60cm blade.
See, kodachi is written with the kanji 小太刀. 小 (ko) stands for small while 太刀 (tachi) stands for sword. So, yeah, kodachi ia japanese for short sword.
A longsword would be called simply 太刀 (tachi).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 09:29 AM
Oh, man. I just have to say it.
A kodachi is not a longsword.
Longsword = about 1m blade.
Kodachi = about 60cm blade.
See, kodachi is written with the kanji 小太刀. 小 (ko) stands for small while 太刀 (tachi) stands for sword. So, yeah, kodachi ia japanese for short sword.
A longsword would be called simply 太刀 (tachi).

hmm I thought Kodachi were the gigantic swords (their existance not-withstanding) and the nodachi the small swords...seems I got confused.

Now on-topic....well I don't have something to say that is new... I agree that tweaking your gamestyle a bit [Psycho] is the most efficient option, while changing system is the most worthwhile in the longrun IMO.

I would also like to hear about your players, frankly if you say you don't want to bring them here for fear they might peek on your threads about this particular campaing even if you put the "my player's please stay out" advice, makes it seems that you don't fully trust your players, and I don't think that is a good group dynamic

just some of my thoughts

NeoRetribution
2010-10-20, 10:56 AM
You are thinking of nodachi.

I will look for a helpful visual aid.

Additional Edit:
This is a nodachi:http://accel6.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/28/35/90/nodachi03.jpg

Here is nodachi again:http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/com-shot/img10604267563.jpeg

And no, katana are not the long-swords of the samurai ethos.

PopcornMage
2010-10-20, 11:04 AM
Something about this post makes me want to try a Toon horror game now...

Edit: With a sufficiently horrific DM

Bugs Bunny or Yakko Warner?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-20, 01:37 PM
Horror is not about hard encounters and weird house rules.

Horror campaigns are about suspense, situations, emotion, and fear. You can accomplish this without throwing heavily templated ridiculous CR monsters at them. All you need to do is use normal CR monsters, and describe them in a way that makes them scary, grotesque, or mysterious.

If you really want to run a horror campaign, I suggest you pick up a copy of Heroes of Horror and give it a read.

Also, very importantly, I'd like to stress something.

Your players aren't crappy. They are just ignorant (and I don't mean that in an insulting way, I just mean they are new and don't understand game mechanics). It is completely unfair to blame them for the state of your game.

You, on the other hand, consistently make poorly considered mistakes. Random house rules, ban lists as long as my arm with little to no reasoning behind them, extremely poorly thought out encounters, the list can go on. Yet, you seem to be blaming your players for their problems by saying "help my players suck less." The fact that they are struggling is not their fault, it is YOURS. You completely ignore Challenge Ratings and game mechanics. It is the DM's job to appropriately challenge players, not take wild, uninformed guesses at what they can handle. Your players will be challenged plenty by even just a normal game. It is your role to identify this fact and make it work within your setting. You can't just enforce your exact vision of a setting without considering the players at all.

{Scrubbed}

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-20, 02:44 PM
Here's a suggestion to fixing your little problem. The next person that dies, tell them to play an arcane caster. Yeah, yeah, I know that arcane spells in your setting have that little "planar rift" problem going for them. With that in mind, house rule these spells into the game:

Control Magic, Lesser
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 5%.

Casting this spell adds a 1% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 1% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Control Magic
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 20%.

Casting this spell adds a 4% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 4% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Control Magic, Greater
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness. This calming power remains with you for a short time.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 25%. In addition, the cumulative chance to cause planar rifts through casting spells is reduced by 3% per spell, to a minimum of 1%.

Casting this spell adds a 7% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 7% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Example: Jonas, a wizard, has cast 1 fourth level, 3 fifth level spells, and a sixth level spell today. He currently has a 25 + Spell level of next spell % chance to cause a planar rift. He casts Control Magic, Greater and his chance of causing a planar rift is reduced to 0% for the duration of the spell. Each spell he casts during the duration of this spell has its cumulative chance reduced by 3%, to a minimum of 1. After this spell's duration is over Jonas still has a 5% chance + reduced cumulative spells % chance to cause a planar rift when later casting.

If Jonas casts 3 8th level spells while under the effects of Control Magic, Greater, he has a 25% + 15% - 25% = 15% chance to cause a planar rift after the duration of this spell is expired.

This lets you keep the flavor of chaotic magic while letting your player decide if he wants to use resources to alleviate some of the danger with casting spells.

Oh, and when you do this, make sure to show the player this. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God)

jindra34
2010-10-20, 03:12 PM
Here's a suggestion to fixing your little problem. The next person that dies, tell them to play an arcane caster. Yeah, yeah, I know that arcane spells in your setting have that little "planar rift" problem going for them. With that in mind, house rule these spells into the game:

Control Magic, Lesser
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 5%.

Casting this spell adds a 1% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 1% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Control Magic
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 20%.

Casting this spell adds a 4% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 4% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Control Magic, Greater
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness. This calming power remains with you for a short time.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 25%. In addition, the cumulative chance to cause planar rifts through casting spells is reduced by 3% per spell, to a minimum of 1%.

Casting this spell adds a 7% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 7% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Example: Jonas, a wizard, has cast 1 fourth level, 3 fifth level spells, and a sixth level spell today. He currently has a 25 + Spell level of next spell % chance to cause a planar rift. He casts Control Magic, Greater and his chance of causing a planar rift is reduced to 0% for the duration of the spell. Each spell he casts during the duration of this spell has its cumulative chance reduced by 3%, to a minimum of 1. After this spell's duration is over Jonas still has a 5% chance + reduced cumulative spells % chance to cause a planar rift when later casting.

If Jonas casts 3 8th level spells while under the effects of Control Magic, Greater, he has a 25% + 15% - 25% = 15% chance to cause a planar rift after the duration of this spell is expired.

This lets you keep the flavor of chaotic magic while letting your player decide if he wants to use resources to alleviate some of the danger with casting spells.
Wait thats the same setting? I must ask are you going for survival horror or something more in line with a Lovecraftian cosmic horror story because I think the sum of your rules pushes it into the second category.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-20, 03:16 PM
I think it's more of a general horror mishmash. Otherwise, within seven sessions, we've got from cosmic horrors to zombies to robots. I don't see a connecting thread there, though I obviously don't know all the details.

I agree with whoever reccomended heroes of horror. It's good readin.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 03:36 PM
Oh, man. I just have to say it.
A kodachi is not a longsword.
Longsword = about 1m blade.
Kodachi = about 60cm blade.
See, kodachi is written with the kanji 小太刀. 小 (ko) stands for small while 太刀 (tachi) stands for sword. So, yeah, kodachi ia japanese for short sword.
A longsword would be called simply 太刀 (tachi).

Katana are bastard swords.
Wakizashi are shortswords.
Kodachi are larger than a wakizashi and smaller than a Katana.

Logically, therefore, they most go in the category between shortsword and bastard sword. Which is longsword.


Horror is not about hard encounters and weird house rules.

Horror campaigns are about suspense, situations, emotion, and fear. You can accomplish this without throwing heavily templated ridiculous CR monsters at them. All you need to do is use normal CR monsters, and describe them in a way that makes them scary, grotesque, or mysterious.

I do both.


If you really want to run a horror campaign, I suggest you pick up a copy of Heroes of Horror and give it a read.

I can't even afford ToB, what makes you think I would have the money for Heroes of Horror, even if I could find a copy of it? (I don't order things online because I have absolutely no method of paying for it.)


Your players aren't crappy. They are just ignorant (and I don't mean that in an insulting way, I just mean they are new and don't understand game mechanics). It is completely unfair to blame them for the state of your game.

What you mean by "ignorant" is what I mean by "crappy."


This thread title should be changed to "[3.5] Help me learn to DM."

No, the thead title should be changed to "Please get out of my thread if you're going to give me backhanded advice I didn't ask for." I came here asking how I could optimized the party. Instead, half the posts have been explaining why I suck. :smallannoyed:


Here's a suggestion to fixing your little problem. The next person that dies, tell them to play an arcane caster. Yeah, yeah, I know that arcane spells in your setting have that little "planar rift" problem going for them. With that in mind, house rule these spells into the game:

Control Magic, Lesser
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 5%.

Casting this spell adds a 1% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 1% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Control Magic
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 20%.

Casting this spell adds a 4% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 4% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Control Magic, Greater
Abjuration
Level:Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

Upon finishing the words of power for this spell, a magical calm settles over your mind. The chaotic effects of using arcane magic ebb from your consciousness. This calming power remains with you for a short time.

Casting this spell reduces your existing chance to create planar rifts by casting arcane spells by 25%. In addition, the cumulative chance to cause planar rifts through casting spells is reduced by 3% per spell, to a minimum of 1%.

Casting this spell adds a 7% chance to your current cumulative total for purposes of the percentage roll for casting this spell. However, this 7% chance does not count toward your total for purposes of the reduced total after the spell.

Example: Jonas, a wizard, has cast 1 fourth level, 3 fifth level spells, and a sixth level spell today. He currently has a 25 + Spell level of next spell % chance to cause a planar rift. He casts Control Magic, Greater and his chance of causing a planar rift is reduced to 0% for the duration of the spell. Each spell he casts during the duration of this spell has its cumulative chance reduced by 3%, to a minimum of 1. After this spell's duration is over Jonas still has a 5% chance + reduced cumulative spells % chance to cause a planar rift when later casting.

If Jonas casts 3 8th level spells while under the effects of Control Magic, Greater, he has a 25% + 15% - 25% = 15% chance to cause a planar rift after the duration of this spell is expired.

This lets you keep the flavor of chaotic magic while letting your player decide if he wants to use resources to alleviate some of the danger with casting spells.

Hm... interesting. I'll mull it over.

jindra34
2010-10-20, 03:44 PM
No, the thead title should be changed to "Please get out of my thread if you're going to give me backhanded advice I didn't ask for." I came here asking how I could optimized the party. Instead, half the posts have been explaining why I suck. :smallannoyed:

The reason why that may be is that your players may not be optimizing for standard DnD, but for your campaign. And your asking for help getting them to optimize for standard DnD when most of the optimization tricks are hampered or off the table all together. Which brings me back to the survival versus cosmic horror issue.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 03:46 PM
Which brings me back to the survival versus cosmic horror issue.

It's survival horror, with cosmic horror lurking in the background.

jindra34
2010-10-20, 03:51 PM
It's survival horror, with cosmic horror lurking in the background.
Okay then, from what I can understand about your campaign your players are actually optimizing correctly. Just remember to give them some Experience every time they survive an encounter (note not kill the problem) and it should be good. Also try to give them a ray or two of sunshine every once in a while as well.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 04:03 PM
A few words from Kharn's player:

The story is good, not a whole lot to comment on yet as we haven't gotten very far but I like the villain (I think I can safely say we all do) and the White Hand as a whole. Atmosphere is exactly what you're going for, survival-horror. Difficulty might be the key, not because every encounter is potentially fatal but because, with the exception of the fighting in the woods from before the invasion, every encounter seems somewhat hopeless. The invasion itself with its hundreds of zombies and no escape route, the Chain Man, and now seemingly unkillable zombie wolves (with a bear, no less) that could undoubtedly chase us down if we tried to escape. It's definitely been fun so far, although oddly enough the most fun parts seem to be not the combat, but rather the noncombat encounters. The highlight of the last session has to be the racist 7th Legion guy. The combat is fun too, but I think it would be more fun if it seemed less overwhelmingly "you're ****ed". My favorite fight of the ones I've seen was the one against the living targets (those bandits in the woods) because attacking them actually seems to be affecting them in some way.
So I suppose what I'm saying is that overall the people on that forum are wrong, and we are having fun, but also that we could be having more fun with just slightly less 'looming demise'... (and some more living targets!)

So what I'm getting here is tone down the murder maybe half a notch... and given them a chance to return the favor occasionally.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-20, 04:14 PM
No, the thead title should be changed to "Please get out of my thread if you're going to give me backhanded advice I didn't ask for." I came here asking how I could optimized the party. Instead, half the posts have been explaining why I suck. :smallannoyed:

If you don't want people's honest opinions and advice, don't post it on the internet. Whether you like what you hear or not, people are going to give their own assessment of the situation. In this case, the majority assessment here is more accurate than your own, and you'd do yourself a favor by taking the advice given rather than dictating parameters for advice.

You have posted enough about this campaign for people that pay close attention to this board to have a good idea of what's going on. What you are asking for is selfish, self-centered advice. This thread isn't about improving your players' characters out of the goodness of your heart. This is about getting the characters to function such that you can make your poorly designed encounters and still have the players stand a chance. If you can't have fun by giving the players appropriate challenges for their skills levels and characters, you probably shouldn't be DMing. Being a DM isn't about forcing your imagined setting down people's throats. It's about making the setting work with the players.

When I ask for advice on a D&D board, I expect open and honest answers and take ALL of them seriously. It doesn't matter if they are responding to my exact question or not. For example, let's assume I've decided to run an evil-PC campaign and I ask for suggestions about how to handle it. If somebody comes in to the thread and says "I wouldn't run an evil campaign for reasons X, Y, and Z" I respect their opinion and explain how I will make X, Y, and Z not affect my game. I do not say "I didn't ask for that advice, get out of my thread."

It is poor form and insulting, especially since you have shown so far that you lack a fundamental understanding of how to design campaigns and encounters (like when you admitted you really don't know how the Encounter Level table works).

EDIT: based on what your player wrote, in actuality we are right. you have not talked about anything except combat encounters. all the criticism of the encounters that have been posted about is basically reflected in what your player wrote.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 04:19 PM
When I ask for advice on a D&D board, I expect open and honest answers and take ALL of them seriously. It doesn't matter if they are responding to my exact question or not. For example, let's assume I've decided to run an evil-PC campaign and I ask for suggestions about how to handle it. If somebody comes in to the thread and says "I wouldn't run an evil campaign for reasons X, Y, and Z" I respect their opinion and explain how I will make X, Y, and Z not affect my game. I do not say "I didn't ask for that advice, get out of my thread."

You don't. I do. I don't care what your opinions are on my DMing style. All I want to know is how to make my PCs slightly less squishy.


It is poor form and insulting, especially since you have shown so far that you lack a fundamental understanding of how to design campaigns and encounters (like when you admitted you really don't know how the Encounter Level table works).

Didn't. Past tense.


EDIT: based on what your player wrote, in actuality we are right. you have not talked about anything except combat encounters. all the criticism of the encounters that have been posted about is basically reflected in what your player wrote.

Really? You people make it seem like the goddamn apocalypse. My player makes it sound like a minor pet peeve.

jindra34
2010-10-20, 04:23 PM
You don't. I do. I don't care what your opinions are on my DMing style. All I want to know is how to make my PCs slightly less squishy.


Really you can't with what is allowed. At low levels, low spent wealth players are going to be squishy, and nothing short of munchikinry will change that.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 04:25 PM
Really you can't with what is allowed. At low levels, low spent wealth players are going to be squishy, and nothing short of munchikinry will change that.

Hm. That's unfortunate. :smallsigh: Ah well, I'll toss some treasure their way in the near future.

On a related note, what would be some progressions the players should aim for?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-20, 04:28 PM
You don't. I do. I don't care what your opinions are on my DMing style. All I want to know is how to make my PCs slightly less squishy.
28 Point buy system. Make sure you Outlaw CW Samurai and inform your players that constitution is never a dump stat for anybody.


Didn't. Past tense.
Not based on what you've posted.


Really? You people make it seem like the goddamn apocalypse. My player makes it sound like a minor pet peeve.
I suspect the vast majority of your sessions aren't highly combat oriented, which is fine. Be aware, however, that this minimizes the flaws in your design of combat situations.

In my case, my players often will engage in combat 4 or 5 times a night. This isn't all the time, but it is typical. If I were to make these kinds of mistakes it would stick out like a sore thumb to the players and really annoy them.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-20, 04:33 PM
Really? You people make it seem like the goddamn apocalypse. My player makes it sound like a minor pet peeve.

Look, he's your friend, presumably. He plays with you all the time. He's going to make it sound like a minor issue. The fact that he cared enough to bring it up means it probably isn't.

Now, this is the internets. Things are probably not softpedaled to avoid hurting your feelings. People are much more likely to give their honest opinion because, frankly, it doesn't affect them much if you're annoyed at them as a result. Given the comment you've shared with us, I imagine that if the players were here, reading the thread, they would likely agree with what you've shared, especially because it indicates that you told them the "people on the internet" said they were not having fun. That is, at best, a stretch. Plenty said they would not enjoy those encounters, or that many people would not enjoy them. Your player then criticizes your encounters as feeling too difficult to impact. He may not realize it from what you've told him, but he IS in agreement with us.

To be blunt, there is no significant way your characters could have optimized better with the tools they were given. Certainly not enough to avoid the TPK, or imminent TPK with the robots. They are good, reasonable builds for the styles chosen. A few differently selected skill points would not have mattered in the least to those fights.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 04:34 PM
Really you can't with what is allowed. At low levels, low spent wealth players are going to be squishy, and nothing short of munchikinry will change that.

...yes you can and the advice "how" has been given over half a dozen pages back. To recap:

- Getting different weapons (since like half the party is proficient in all martial weapons, and even simples offer tools to cover almost all roles)
- Getting Knowledges
- Balancing party members so as to cover different party roles
- Fortifying camps
- Rerolls (as the DM has repeatedly said he's going to have them do)
- Picking better classes and feats
- Picking better races
- Better spell selection & some backup scrolls
- More tactical combat

All of this has been mentioned and DM said he's going to implement most of it. And all of it makes a tremendous difference, in the neighborhood of multiple attacks, knowing what you're fighting (and thus about +5 damage per hit + ability to abuse their lack of intellect), casters being able to go on longer and modify encounters, being able to kite opponents with ranged weapons, being in a tactically more advantageous position when defending at night, having plain better To Hit & Damage & AC & HP & Spell Save DCs & Skill MOdifiers and having people boosting the warriors in addition to having warriors.

Best of all, none of that involves any munchkinry (don't fear, there's a lot that could be done that would be totally unfair but that's not the point here), just standard optimization and efficient party composition.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 04:34 PM
28 Point buy system. Make sure you Outlaw CW Samurai and inform your players that constitution is never a dump stat for anybody.

See? Was that so hard? And yes, Samurai's dumped. We're using 2d6+6.


I suspect the vast majority of your sessions aren't highly combat oriented, which is fine. Be aware, however, that this minimizes the flaws in your design of combat situations.

In my case, my players often will engage in combat 4 or 5 times a night. This isn't all the time, but it is typical. If I were to make these kinds of mistakes it would stick out like a sore thumb to the players and really annoy them.

Keep in mind that the very nature of the combat frequency alters the nature of the situation. If your players engage in combat 4 or 5 times a night, that means they'll almost certaintly getting into multiple scrapes without any chance to rest, thus limiting their effectiveness with each progressive fight.

On the other hand I have maybe one combat encounter a session, maybe two. This usually means my PCs have a chance to rest, and are at full capacity with nearly every encounter.


Look, he's your friend, presumably. He plays with you all the time. He's going to make it sound like a minor issue. The fact that he cared enough to bring it up means it probably isn't.

*thinks about it* Acquaintance, really, but I see your point.


Now, this is the internets. Things are probably not softpedaled to avoid hurting your feelings. People are much more likely to give their honest opinion because, frankly, it doesn't affect them much if you're annoyed at them as a result. Given the comment you've shared with us, I imagine that if the players were here, reading the thread, they would likely agree with what you've shared, especially because it indicates that you told them the "people on the internet" said they were not having fun. That is, at best, a stretch. Plenty said they would not enjoy those encounters, or that many people would not enjoy them. Your player then criticizes your encounters as feeling too difficult to impact. He may not realize it from what you've told him, but he IS in agreement with us.

I told them that "a large portion of the forum that I use to get DMing advice is seemingly of the opinion that you lot couldn't possibly be legitimately enjoying my games... ...Because I'm a brutal DM who intentionally makes every given encounter potentially lethal."

And the ones he cited were the intentionally unwinnable ones. (The zombie invasion, the Chained Man...)

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-20, 04:39 PM
I vastly prefer point buy to rolling. Random stats may sound nice in theory but in practice they are bad. It results in players with lucky rolls having dramatically better stats than less lucky players. Point buy results in balanced characters across the party. It eliminates the possibility that one player may have all 9s, 10s, and 11s and another might have all 15s-18s.

jindra34
2010-10-20, 04:40 PM
...yes you can and the advice "how" has been given over half a dozen pages back. To recap:

- Getting different weapons (since like half the party is proficient in all martial weapons, and even simples offer tools to cover almost all roles)
- Getting Knowledges
- Balancing party members so as to cover different party roles
- Fortifying camps
- Rerolls (as the DM has repeatedly said he's going to have them do)
- Picking better classes and feats
- Picking better races
- Better spell selection & some backup scrolls
- More tactical combat

All of this has been mentioned and DM said he's going to implement most of it. And all of it makes a tremendous difference, in the neighborhood of multiple attacks, knowing what you're fighting (and thus about +5 damage per hit + ability to abuse their lack of intellect), casters being able to go on longer and modify encounters, being able to kite opponents with ranged weapons, being in a tactically more advantageous position when defending at night, having plain better To Hit & Damage & AC & HP & Spell Save DCs & Skill MOdifiers and having people boosting the warriors in addition to having warriors.

Best of all, none of that involves any munchkinry (don't fear, there's a lot that could be done that would be totally unfair but that's not the point here), just standard optimization and efficient party composition.

That still doesn't add up to much when going against EL=EPL+4-6, especially if it includes outsiders or constructs. Heavy optimization at these levels won't make a huge difference. And ranged kiting tends to result in a still squishy character.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 04:44 PM
I vastly prefer point buy to rolling. Random stats may sound nice in theory but in practice they are bad. It results in players with lucky rolls having dramatically better stats than less lucky players. Point buy results in balanced characters across the party. It eliminates the possibility that one player may have all 9s, 10s, and 11s and another might have all 15s-18s.

Well, I have them reroll if their stats suck too much. NPCs with my version of the standard array (9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14) have a total modifier of +3. None of the PCs should have stats worse than that.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-20, 04:47 PM
I told them that "a large portion of the forum that I use to get DMing advice is seemingly of the opinion that you lot couldn't possibly be legitimately enjoying my games... ...Because I'm a brutal DM who intentionally makes every given encounter potentially lethal."

See, you made it sound like much more of a personal attack on you as a DM, when most criticism I've seen as been leveled at the two encounters you described in detail, both of which were pure TPK material, in addition to your repeated statements regarding your DMing style. I would not say that a large portion of the forum said it was impossible for your players to enjoy the games as a whole. A simple recount of what people actually replied with proves this is false.

Criticism of encounters is not criticism of the game as a whole, or of your players.


And the ones he cited were the intentionally unwinnable ones. (The zombie invasion, the Chained Man...)

Note that he cited the two encounters you brought to the forums. Both of which you were told were, in fact, unwinnable by the party. Thus, we are in agreement with him.

With more information about the other encounters, I have no doubt that we would be able to form an even more accurate picture of the campaign, and would probably agree with him even more. His complaint seems quite legitimate.