[3.5] DRAGON Compendium technically 3rd party?

[Scorpions__]

I was just looking at the 3.5 Dragon Magazine Compendium in a comic shop and thinking about getting it. I came home and researched it a bit and found that it was published by Paizo, so just as a question of curiosity, does that make it 3rd party material?

I see rave reviews for the book all over the internet, I assume it's a solid purchase?





DM[F]R

[Tiki Snakes]

Up until 4th edition, all Dragon stuff was published by Paizo, yes. It is 3rd party, no technically about it really. You could possibly argue for 2nd party, but that's really splitting hairs.

It's famously wonky in places, but provides a hell of a lot of options. I'd say at this point, though, if it's available at a decent price you may as well go for it, as 3.5 stuff isn't going to be getting any less rare. (Short of jumping 3.5 entirely and going Pathfinder).

[Psyren]

The book says "Official Wizards of the Coast licensed product" and carries the logo. It is first party.

Other 3rd-party sources (e.g. Hyperconscious) do not carry this line/logo.

[Keld Denar]

You could possibly argue for 2nd party, but that's really splitting hairs.

Technically, homebrew made by the player would be 2nd party, if you REALLY want to split hairs. 1st party is the publisher (I, WotC), 2nd party is the user (you, consumer), and 3rd party is everyone else (them, Paizo).

Sorry, I think I spilled grammer in your D&D...

[Emmerask]

Yes second party refers to the consumer in business terms in most cases, and even if wotc licensed the stuff it is still produced and sold by a third party making it a third party product :smallsmile:

[Zaydos]

Dragon Magazine was ran by TSR until TSR was bought by WotC which then ran it till 2002, when they licensed it out to Paizo. Paizo had it for 5 years, so everything from issue 290-300 something to issue 359 were published by Paizo and not WotC this includes the Dragon Compendium (I knew it changed ownership during the 290s since I remembered the editorial in one of my first issues talked about it). During this time it would have been an officially licensed 3rd party product so, something in between 1st and 3rd party. I've seen it called 2nd party because of this.

[Tyndmyr]

The book says "Official Wizards of the Coast licensed product" and carries the logo. It is first party.

Other 3rd-party sources (e.g. Hyperconscious) do not carry this line/logo.

Nah. That just makes it official.

So, it's official third party. Confusing labeling, I'll admit.

[Psyren]

Fair enough, I understand the difference now. (I agree that it's thoroughly confusing, however.)

[dsmiles]

Nah. That just makes it official.

So, it's official third party. Confusing labeling, I'll admit.

Much like 3e Dragonlance.

[Scorpions__]

Up until 4th edition, all Dragon stuff was published by Paizo, yes. It is 3rd party, no technically about it really. You could possibly argue for 2nd party, but that's really splitting hairs.

It's famously wonky in places, but provides a hell of a lot of options. I'd say at this point, though, if it's available at a decent price you may as well go for it, as 3.5 stuff isn't going to be getting any less rare. (Short of jumping 3.5 entirely and going Pathfinder).

How wonky we talking here?






DM[F]R

[Tyndmyr]

Well, there's a PC race that is twins. So, you're playing a char thats actually two people. It's headache-inducing.

[Psyren]

Well, there's a PC race that is twins. So, you're playing a char thats actually two people. It's headache-inducing.

That's really the only confusing thing I can think of in there TBH. Maybe the Sha'ir can get a bit tricky but who plays them anyway?

[bartman]

Well, there's a PC race that is twins. So, you're playing a char thats actually two people. It's headache-inducing.

why am I just hearing about this now???

Where would I find this so I can scare the hell outta my DMWife :smallbiggrin:

[Zherog]

Dragon Magazine was ran by TSR until TSR was bought by WotC which then ran it till 2002, when they licensed it out to Paizo. Paizo had it for 5 years, so everything from issue 290-300 something to issue 359 were published by Paizo and not WotC this includes the Dragon Compendium (I knew it changed ownership during the 290s since I remembered the editorial in one of my first issues talked about it). During this time it would have been an officially licensed 3rd party product so, something in between 1st and 3rd party. I've seen it called 2nd party because of this.

As part of the license between WotC and Paizo, WotC reviewed everything that printed in the magazine prior to it going to the printing presses. I know I had one article heavily altered by the editorial staff because WotC insisted on changes, and I know of at least one instance where WotC completely nixed an article.

That makes it a bit more odd than your typical third party arrangement - even other licensees, to the best of my knowledge.

[Kobold-Bard]

why am I just hearing about this now???

Where would I find this so I can scare the hell outta my DMWife :smallbiggrin:

In the Dragon Compendium funnily enough :smallamused:
They're called the Dvati and are a pain in the butt to play and DM for.

However the Dragon Compendium is one of my favourite books ever because it has the Force Missile Mage in it. It does exactly what it sounds like it does, and is awesome in every flavour. Also has a very cool picture:
http://trow.cn/forum/uploads/post-3007-1180014538.jpg

[Emmerask]

As part of the license between WotC and Paizo, WotC reviewed everything that printed in the magazine prior to it going to the printing presses. I know I had one article heavily altered by the editorial staff because WotC insisted on changes, and I know of at least one instance where WotC completely nixed an article.

That makes it a bit more odd than your typical third party arrangement - even other licensees, to the best of my knowledge.

while it seems odd there are planty of companies doing so, apple, nintendo in the nes time (duno how they operate nowadays), while I can obviously only guess about the whole industry I do believe that a lot of companies handle their third party products the same way especially if they are going to license them.

[Prime32]

why am I just hearing about this now???

Where would I find this so I can scare the hell outta my DMWife :smallbiggrin:Dvati kind of suck unless you're playing a DFA or a Fiend of Possession. Maybe a rogue who flanks with himself.

Their hp is halved before adding Con. For things like casting spells, both twins have to take an action (but it only happens once). Plus your wealth is effectively halved.


Could be worse though - apparently the designer wanted them to have a single pool of actions per turn.

[Scarey Nerd]

When push comes to shove, the book has a race of people that can turn into house-cats. 3rd party, 1st party, does it really matter if you can become a kitty as a standard action?

[Prime32]

Be sure to check the errata - one feat had its prereqs changed from BAB +14 to BAB +1. I think there's clarifications on the kittehfolk tibbits too.

[Darrin]

Could be worse though - apparently the designer wanted them to have a single pool of actions per turn.

Editor, actually. The designer, Talon Dunning (http://www.talonart.com/), designed them for 2nd edition. He used to have a 2E-era PDF on his website, but I don't see it there anymore.

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7815509&postcount=32) has details on the two emails I received from Talon.

To sum up, neither Talon nor Mike McArtor has a clear idea of how Dvati should work in 3.5, and neither of them appear to have playtested them. So the best way to use Dvati is to find a houserule fix that works for your particular campaign.

[Zherog]

while it seems odd there are planty of companies doing so, apple, nintendo in the nes time (duno how they operate nowadays), while I can obviously only guess about the whole industry I do believe that a lot of companies handle their third party products the same way especially if they are going to license them.

WotC has no control at all over "standard" 3rd parties. I don't know what arrangements they had with their other licensees (Dragonlance, Kingdoms of Kalimar [I believe they had one as part of a legal settlement from the 2e days], Code Monkey Publishing... that might be all of 'em...)

[Morph Bark]

Dvati kind of suck unless you're playing a DFA or a Fiend of Possession. Maybe a rogue who flanks with himself.

Their hp is halved before adding Con. For things like casting spells, both twins have to take an action (but it only happens once). Plus your wealth is effectively halved.

Vow of Poverty, ho!

*brick'd by optimizers*

[Claudius Maximus]

Much like 3e Dragonlance.

Not much to add here, but I just wanted to clarify that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book is actually 1st party. All other Dragonlance products are 3rd party though.

[Thurbane]

Most of the DMC is great, but one or two items are a bit wonky.

One that springs to mind is the Unseelie Fey template: a template that can grant flight, DR/cold iron and supernatural abilities, with LA +0. Unfortunately, this wasn't corrected in the errata.

A few other templates has LA omitted, but were corrected in the errata.

[Magikeeper]

I'm in a game with a Dvati bloodstorm blade /master thrower that has TWF, rapid shot, and palm throw. Add in a high con score, a d12 HD, and the ability to roll really well with HP dice and you have a ranged chainsaw.

It gets worse with the dragonfire inspiration bard… anyway, dvati with high con and large HD are quite strong if you focus on a high-damage build with reach or range.

Edit: The 1/2 wealth thing may be the bigger issue, unless your group counts them as two people for getting loot. Which we do, so it isn't an issue.


Unseelie Fey is one of my favorite templates. It is too much for +0 though, I admit. But it works so well with Cha-based melee builds. Yay petal fey melee machines! With LA buyoff it would be worth +1 if you chose the right season and didn't roll something crappy (like no eyes).

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Sorry, I think I spilled grammer in your D&D...my bolding for the lolz

Drag mags are great. After that broaden your horizons to dungeon mags :smallcool:

[Thurbane]

Not much to add here, but I just wanted to clarify that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book is actually 1st party. All other Dragonlance products are 3rd party though.
Dragonlance Campaign Setting is in exactly the same boat as Dragon Magazine Compendium - "official" third party.

[Prime32]

Vow of Poverty, ho!

*brick'd by optimizers*That is one of the few places where it could be worth it. You'd still want a build which isn't item-dependent though, like a totemist. And try to convince your DM that only the 1st-level bonus feat has to be exalted.

[darkpuppy]

While it is, as noted, technically official 3rd party, it's one heck of a toolkit, and nearly all of the articles are useful somewhere... My personal favourite was the spellbook supplement, especially Zaqiq's Comedicon... The rare times I run a DnD campaign (mainly because every darned group that used to be in Pembs pretty much only knows DnD 3.5, and it's a good "starter" RPG... which led to me being a bit burned out on DnD in general), i rule that spellbooks found have to have character, like the spellbooks in these dragon supplements. They're never just "A book, which happens to have spells in it."

[Zherog]

Dragonlance Campaign Setting is in exactly the same boat as Dragon Magazine Compendium - "official" third party.

No, the DLCS is 1st party. It was published by WotC. All supplements after that were done by Margaret Weiss's company. Here's the Amazon.com listing (http://www.amazon.com/Dragonlance-Campaign-Setting-Dungeon-Roleplaying/dp/0786930861/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287583444&sr=8-1-spell), which will show the publisher as WotC.

[Psyren]

No, the DLCS is 1st party. It was published by WotC. All supplements after that were done by Margaret Weiss's company. Here's the Amazon.com listing (http://www.amazon.com/Dragonlance-Campaign-Setting-Dungeon-Roleplaying/dp/0786930861/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287583444&sr=8-1-spell), which will show the publisher as WotC.

The book contains a couple of neat classes too. The Mystic positively steamrolls the Favored Soul and Shugenja in the "spontaneous divine caster" niche, and the Noble is like a combination of the Aristocrat and a martial Bard that is capable of neat tricks (e.g. Iaijutsu Focus.)

[Tyndmyr]

Vow of Poverty, ho!

*brick'd by optimizers*

In conjunction with VoP, that might not actually be a bad idea. IIRC, it resulted in a stupidly high DC save to take any hostile action at all. Given that it was a bubble centered on you, having two yous might have hilarious interactions with that.

Yeah, I could work with that.