Why does everyone think Belkar will live? [Archive]

jidasfire

2010-10-19, 08:35 PM

It's probably not that people think he will live so much as they want him to. For many, it's an emotional reaction, i.e., he makes me laugh, therefore I don't want him out of the strip. This is somewhat true for me, but it goes beyond as well. It seems that the dynamic of the team would be damaged without Belkar. Every member of the Order, while they have varying degrees of virtue, are defined as a team by their dysfunction. It's why this is still a humor comic and not a fully serious fantasy, even though it has those elements. To put it bluntly, Roy is sarcastic and dismissive, Elan is stupid, Haley is secretive and manipulative, Durkon is stereotypical, Vaarsuvius is a pompous know-it-all, and Belkar is an evil jerk. They all provide different facets of humor for Mr. Burlew to work with, and losing one would diminish the comic. So, it is at least understandable for those who like evil jerk humor to hope that its embodiment in the comic does not go away.

Another thing to consider is Belkar has shown character growth in recent times (note: character growth does not mean growth in the direction of good), designed to keep him alive in a world that doesn't approve of villains. It could be seen by his fans to be a waste of that growth to kill him. Perhaps that very growth helps him beat the prophecy. Then again, perhaps it's that growth which leads to his demise.

The fact is, no one but the author knows how the prophecy will play out. While I will be glad if Belkar beats it somehow and sad if he's simply written out to make room for more angst and seriousness, Order of the Stick has yet to let me down. And of course, it will still be awhile before we know, so until then, one expectation is as good as another, as is one prediction.

Xykeb Zraliv

2010-10-19, 08:52 PM

Ranylyn

2010-10-19, 10:14 PM

I'd like for Belkar to not die, but the Oracle is so specific with his words that any possible loophole I can think of is just too laughably contrived of a plot point to even consider. Unfortunately, some people cannot grasp that and simply cling to the "it's possible" argument, which I guess is why we have this problem.

Well, consider how the memory spell wipes everything but the Oracle's answers to their specific questions. He might have just been messing with them for fun. There are too many loopholes for us to say that this is guaranteed. Good proof is Roy's realization that Azure City would be attacked, and then passing through the field and forgetting again.

Do I believe Belkar can and likely will die? Yes. Do I believe he has a possibility of living? Yes, the evidence we have, one scene with the Oracle when not even in the trance that answers questions, is kind of flimsy to state definitively that Belkar will die, and of course, Roy has already been revived, and the Oracle saw Belkar killing him and had a resurrection planned, as well. Even if Belkar does die temporarily, odds are he'll be revived, if only because he's useful to the Order.

Unless the Giant has explicitly stated "Belkar will die." All we can do is speculate. If he has already done so and I didn't see it, then feel free to disregard my ramblings.

Draconi Redfir

2010-10-19, 10:16 PM

i hope Rich kills belkar off perminently and never shows his face again, just to piss off the people who think he will be comeing back as a lich or something XD

Doomboy911

2010-10-19, 10:24 PM

I think you're mixing up two questions there.

One is "why do some people think Belkar will live?", as you have for your title. There are numerous possible answers to that, from denial to false optimism to genuinely thinking there are logical loopholes to be found (though I consider that last laughable personally).

The other is "why do people like Belkar?", which is easy to answer. He's funny. He's likable character in the sense that he often makes the comic more humorous with his remarks and actions, not because he's sympathetic or heroic.

Though I must contest this:

No he wouldn't. He's a small-time evil, the type who just kills or hurts because it's fun for him, and doesn't have enough power to cause harm on the kind of level that Xykon does. Nor does he have anyone who would be willing to help him. He'd be easily taken out.

Xykon is a good villain because of how messed up he is combined with how powerful he is, which allows him to actually be a significant problem rather than just a small-time loon. Redcloak is a great villain because of his sympathetic motivations, his character depth, the scale of his/the Dark One's Plan, plus being pretty powerful in his own right. Belkar as a villain wouldn't hold a candle to them. He'd be more comparable to Nale, at best.

Zevox

Yeah with the villains it appears you have to have power and intelligence. Dark V had power but oddly enough didn't have the intelligence to make the right moves. Nale is intelligent perhaps bright enough to defeat Xykon (PERHAPS) but lacks real power perhaps with an army behind him or an epic character he'd be dangerous but right now he isn't. Also I think they're trying to figure out Belkar's death is because they're looking at it like a puzzle (hard to accept a main character dying and not coming back) it's like Haley's speech issues everyone wanted to be the first to figure it out. So the first person to guess how Belkar beats death and is right is the smartest and probably gets a free cookie I don't know ask them why it matters.

KillItWithFire

2010-10-19, 10:55 PM

You answered your own question, people want Belkar to live BECAUSE they like him. They are in denial and no one wants to face the momement we we have to say good bye to our favorite stabbity halfling. I myself am greatly dreading the event as Belkar is one my favorite characters, but there are no loop-holes. The halfling WILL die, permanently.

cho_j

2010-10-19, 11:54 PM

In my personal opinion, the people who are arguing that Belkar will live are most likely in one of two camps:
1) They really like Belkar as a character, and are going through as many mental hoops as they are willing to come up with a theory in which he lives— assuming that if he were dead he couldn't participate in the story as much/in the same way as now. (Of course, some people are working very hard to find a theory in which he "dies" but can still be as big a part of the strip, through some DnD terminology loophole or another.)
2) They enjoy picking apart the minutiae of web comics, and see this as a great challenge.

Now, these two groups are in no way mutually exclusive. They are also not the only options; some people may just like playing devil's advocate, or hate the Oracle and want to prove him wrong, or O-Chul only knows what. These just seem the most likely answers to your first question.

As a few other posters have pointed out, you actually have a second question here: why do people like Belkar? To that I say: "It's a work of fiction. It's a metaphor. It's not real, and therefore you can either like it or not like it. Whatever." —George Lucas

-Cho

King of Nowhere

2010-10-20, 05:56 AM

No he wouldn't. He's a small-time evil, the type who just kills or hurts because it's fun for him, and doesn't have enough power to cause harm on the kind of level that Xykon does. Nor does he have anyone who would be willing to help him. He'd be easily taken out.

Try saying that while Belkar force feeds you your own liver. He's killed dozens (hundreds?) of innocents for the stupidest reasons, and would have done much worse if not for roy. About him lacking power, that's only because the rest of the oots is as much powerful as him. "The psyco who wanders around spreading death" may be a perfectly legitimate bbeg for a 6-9 level party.

Ancalagon

2010-10-20, 08:28 AM

Why the love for the unloving halfling?

Because a lot of people seem to fall in love with "evil" without seeing that while evil can be quite awesome in a story and cool it's generally something that is not "good".

PopcornMage

2010-10-20, 08:31 AM

Okay, minor hyperbole. However, there are tons of people who are trying to find loopholes in the Oracle's predictions that BELKAR WILL DIE. There's even someone who referred to weather or not Belkar would die as a plot point to be resolved by the end!
Crazy! Until recently, Belkar would make a better villain than Redcloak or most of the rest of Team Evil, and even now he's not too far behind. Why the love for the unloving halfling?

There are two questions here. The one is why people love Belkar, the other is related to the prophecy itself. The first has been addressed, people like him because he's entertaining. He's the CE bastard we all wanted to have fun with in our own RPG games. Or wanted to be in real life, depending. It's not that we want Belkar to do things to us, we want to do the things Belkar does. Or want him to do to others around us.

The other is a Standard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphecyTwist) rule of prophecy is why, and like Elan, we have a degree of Genre savvy here. We know that prophecies exist to screw you, and even when you try to get out of that, you end up screwed. Besides all of the Oracle's talking of Belkar dying were nigh meaningless in this setting. Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html) and Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) were both brought back in story. Roy's father came back multiple times. Maybe if Belkar didn't want to come back, it'd mean something like it did for Shojo, but then he'd have to be happier in the afterlife, or have no unresolved business. And given that somebody would have had to kill him, well, why wouldn't he come back for revenge?

So we end up with the only thing that matters is the specific wording used in the prophecy, that he will draw his last breath ever.

Which many of us knowing the history of prophecies in stories are sure is not going to be simply answered.

JaxGaret

2010-10-20, 08:58 AM

Because a lot of people seem to fall in love with "evil" without seeing that while evil can be quite awesome in a story and cool it's generally something that is not "good".

Emphasis mine.

I have little respect for "evil" people in real life, but that doesn't stop me from heartily loving the character Belkar.

Zevox

2010-10-20, 11:37 AM

Xykeb Zraliv

2010-10-20, 04:52 PM

Well, consider how the memory spell wipes everything but the Oracle's answers to their specific questions. He might have just been messing with them for fun. There are too many loopholes for us to say that this is guaranteed. Good proof is Roy's realization that Azure City would be attacked, and then passing through the field and forgetting again.

Do I believe Belkar can and likely will die? Yes. Do I believe he has a possibility of living? Yes, the evidence we have, one scene with the Oracle when not even in the trance that answers questions, is kind of flimsy to state definitively that Belkar will die, and of course, Roy has already been revived, and the Oracle saw Belkar killing him and had a resurrection planned, as well. Even if Belkar does die temporarily, odds are he'll be revived, if only because he's useful to the Order.

Unless the Giant has explicitly stated "Belkar will die." All we can do is speculate. If he has already done so and I didn't see it, then feel free to disregard my ramblings.

Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean he'll be gone forever, but his other quotes regarding Belkar - namely the one that says that he's not long for this world, i.e. he can't come back even if he was an undead etc. - do. Or rather, they would if they were official prophecies the way his "last breath" one was, which it is true they are not.

But at the same time, you have to consider this: what would the narrative purpose be in dropping all these hints plus an official (albeit somewhat ambiguous) prophecy, with only said prophecy actually being noted, and all the others completely ignored? Basically, the issue here is this: the Oracle has several statements that all imply a synonymous situation: Belkar's death. We can only accept one to be necessarily true, yes, but because they all imply the same situation, disregarding everything said in all the others simply so we can say that there is a possibility of Belkar ending up living is just as inane and contrived as trying to work around the statements in the first place.

In other words, yeah, it's certainly possible, but I just don't see it as a realistic possibility at all.

PirateMonk

2010-10-20, 05:43 PM

Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean he'll be gone forever, but his other quotes regarding Belkar - namely the one that says that he's not long for this world, i.e. he can't come back even if he was an undead etc. - do. Or rather, they would if they were official prophecies the way his "last breath" one was, which it is true they are not.

But at the same time, you have to consider this: what would the narrative purpose be in dropping all these hints plus an official (albeit somewhat ambiguous) prophecy, with only said prophecy actually being noted, and all the others completely ignored? Basically, the issue here is this: the Oracle has several statements that all imply a synonymous situation: Belkar's death. We can only accept one to be necessarily true, yes, but because they all imply the same situation, disregarding everything said in all the others simply so we can say that there is a possibility of Belkar ending up living is just as inane and contrived as trying to work around the statements in the first place.

In other words, yeah, it's certainly possible, but I just don't see it as a realistic possibility at all.

You're probably right, but almost every prophecy fulfilled so far has been useless or misleading at the time it was given. Why would this be different?

SPoD

2010-10-20, 06:55 PM

Because a prophecy that is fulfilled exactly in the most obvious way that everyone expects all along is narratively pointless. It's just giving away the end of the story beforehand with no benefit. Every great prophecy in literature is fulfilled in some (at least slightly) unexpected way. It's about bringing the audience along on a ride, making them think X will happen then switching to Y, which fulfills it in a clever unanticipated manner.

So while I would never say that Belkar is definitely going to live, I guarantee that the prophecy is not nearly as cut-and-dried as everyone seems to think it is. There will be some twist to it when it occurs, which may indeed include some technical loophole or perhaps just flat-out defiance of it because, say, the Snarl rewrites the future when it is accidentally released, or something.

PopcornMage

2010-10-20, 07:01 PM

I don't think it's cut and dried!

PirateMonk

2010-10-20, 08:00 PM

GreatWyrmGold

2010-10-23, 04:20 PM

No he wouldn't. He's a small-time evil, the type who just kills or hurts because it's fun for him, and doesn't have enough power to cause harm on the kind of level that Xykon does. Nor does he have anyone who would be willing to help him. He'd be easily taken out.
What I meant was, he acted more evil-ly than most of Team Evil. With the possible exception of Xykon, all of team evil is either too powerless/stupid/obidient not to listen to their evil superiors, or is following some cause other than "Kill things for fun."

QUOTE=PopcornMage;9592382]The other is a Standard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphecyTwist) rule of prophecy...[/QUOTE]

Because a prophecy that is fulfilled exactly in the most obvious way that everyone expects all along is narratively pointless.
Yes, because Rich follows tropes so well...
And don't say "That's following You Can't Fight Fate (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle123ut4ni5x96?from=Main.YouCantFightFate) if you're right." There's also to consider the Oracle's previous behavior and how Rich ignores/deliberately averts stuff fans say (and, of course, I figure that other clues in the strip and massive pro-survival vocalism outweigh this thread).

You're probably right, but almost every prophecy fulfilled so far has been useless or misleading at the time it was given. Why would this be different?
"Useless," yes; "Misleading" only in leaving stuff out-where the throne room is, that V says the four words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) to herself, that Xykon would head to Azure City before Girad's Gate, who Belkar would kill, etc. So far, everyone has been true in letter and spirit; it's just that the answers are not in the spirit of the question.

Dr.Epic

2010-10-23, 06:20 PM

Yeah I agree with you. I don't see how Belkar isn't going to die. I even think the Giant with comment about all these theories and speculation some point in the comic.

Crazy! Until recently, Belkar would make a better villain than Redcloak or most of the rest of Team Evil, and even now he's not too far behind. Why the love for the unloving halfling?

Really? When has Belkar ever been viewed as a better villain than anyone on Team Evil? An epic level lich and a cleric whose got far more levels than him could beat the little guy into the ground. The Linear Guild sure, but not Team Evil.

Zevox

2010-10-23, 09:12 PM

What I meant was, he acted more evil-ly than most of Team Evil. With the possible exception of Xykon, all of team evil is either too powerless/stupid/obidient not to listen to their evil superiors, or is following some cause other than "Kill things for fun."
I don't follow. How on earth does killing things for fun make him more evil than Xykon, Redcloak, or even their underlings? Belkar is a (largely would-be at this point) mass murderer - Redcloak and Xykon are tyrants, with the latter even intending to rule the world (of course!) in addition to being a mass murderer who is a much greater threat to those around him than Belkar could ever hope to be. I'd call the latter far more evil than the former myself.

Zevox

KiwiImperator

2010-10-26, 02:08 AM

I personally suspect that people only want to fight it because it was foretold. Prophecy is aggravating to deal with, it basically tells you what is going to happen, which is often something you don't want to deal with, and then dares you to try and outdo it, which, of course, you can never do unless it lets you do so with a loophole, at which point it chuckles smugly at your vexation. It is basically trolling, and not everybody can take that with good humor.

I, of course, can. Belkar's an evil little rascal, and he's going to get what's coming to him, and I don't hold this prophecy business against our dear Giant, for a very simple reason. I believe a good portion of Belkar's popularity derives from the fact that he is the victim of a series of asinine restrictions that only serve to strengthen him because the people restraining him are incompetent.

His internship with Roy kept him alive, and has gained him more power, more wealth, and more opportunities to kill than he would have ever gotten by himself.

His imprisonment gave him a chance to kill several people, avoid a boring trial, and nearly caused a Paladin to fall.

The Mark of Justice could've killed Belkar, but it also would have killed his party. Instead, it made him stronger, smarter, and indebted his crew to him by letting him save them.

So what is Death to someone like Belkar? A chance to look cool, kill a bunch of people, and then get the party killed with his absence. I'm looking forward to it, for one, putting Belkar in hell is like putting Riddick in Rikers, it's only a punishment if you don't belong there.

Coidzor

2010-10-26, 02:32 AM

*shrug* Whenever I see it dealt with, it's mostly people wondering how he'll die.

I mean, there's the obvious part where he's a character that's been around since the start and he's a source of much comedy so he's very valuable to the story to continue in it in some way so as to continue the comedy of it. It also cuts their membership and seems like there'd be a void in the party's lineup that would need to be filled but due to the strip's nature, Belkar's shoes (or rather lack there of) would be difficult to fill if not outright impossible.

But that's not what you want as an answer, I imagine.

Really? When has Belkar ever been viewed as a better villain than anyone on Team Evil? An epic level lich and a cleric whose got far more levels than him could beat the little guy into the ground. The Linear Guild sure, but not Team Evil.

Better villian =/= more powerful encounter level, dude.

Mr. Bean

2010-10-26, 04:09 AM

I don't follow. How on earth does killing things for fun make him more evil than Xykon, Redcloak, or even their underlings? Belkar is a (largely would-be at this point) mass murderer - Redcloak and Xykon are tyrants, with the latter even intending to rule the world (of course!) in addition to being a mass murderer who is a much greater threat to those around him than Belkar could ever hope to be. I'd call the latter far more evil than the former myself.

Zevox

That quite depends on your definition of "evil". Is it merely the killing of others? Is it enjoying killing? Redcloak, for example, seemed to be out for revenge on paladins, and hurt his underlings due to the past (some sort of revenge as well). That shouldn't strictly be seen as evil. That they are a bigger threat does not mean they are more evil.

With that said, I don't know how "more evil" or "less evil" is relevant. Belkar is probably going to die, and he is probably not going to be resurrected. There can be loopholes, but it's honestly not worth discussing other than fun. We'll see when the time comes.

Zevox

2010-10-26, 04:47 AM

Redcloak, for example, seemed to be out for revenge on paladins, and hurt his underlings due to the past (some sort of revenge as well). That shouldn't strictly be seen as evil.
Redcloak happily and consciously sending who-knows-how-many Hobgoblins under his leadership to their deaths because of a petty childhood grudge shouldn't "strictly be seen as evil?" I don't know how you could possibly come to that conclusion, but in any event your notion of "evil" plainly does not match mine at all.

Not to mention the whole brutal conquest and occupation of Azure City, enslavement of its inhabitants, and torture of O-Chul. Plus one of his final actions in Start of Darkness. Just to name a few big ones off the top of my head. Yeah, Redcloak is quite thoroughly evil. Motivations and an overarching goal that can be sympathized with do not change that.

Zevox

KillItWithFire

2010-10-26, 05:42 AM

I second Zevox and add that being evil does not subtract a degree of humanity. The alignment scale measures what your goals in the world are, not how much of a jerk you are.

blackjack217

2010-10-26, 07:44 AM

Zevox

2010-10-26, 08:01 AM

For the record the most reasonable explanation I have read for blekar living is that he will become undead and therefore stop breathing permanently fulfilling the prophesy. I think he will die but it is a reasonable reading.
No it isn't, because it fails to explain the Oracle's comments about Belkar's death outside of the "breath his last breath" one.

Zevox

Scarlet Knight

2010-10-26, 08:14 AM

:belkar: "I am comedy gold!"

An evil character can be likable in fiction BECAUSE it's fiction. People love "The Godfather" without actually wanting a Mafioso in town ...

KillItWithFire

2010-10-26, 02:49 PM

Prior to giving the prophecy, the Oracle had stated that Belkar "was not long for this world." Last I checked, undead were still in the world. Now the Oracle may be a lot of things but he hasen't lied yet, and by the demenour he was carrying he had already peaked into the future at the point. In my mind, his words mean no less simply because he was not hovering 5 feet off the ground and should be held with as much wieght as the prophecy itself. Sorry guys, Belkar's dead (or plane-shifted permanantly)

Dr.Epic

2010-10-26, 02:54 PM

Better villian =/= more powerful encounter level, dude.

A one dimensional character who isn't threatening to pretty much anyone in the group. Yeah, real grade A villain material.

KillItWithFire

2010-10-26, 03:05 PM

If this makes any sense, villians are more fun because they're not heroes. Heroes are predictable, they always rescue the girl, dont kill anyone, give away all their stuff, villians on the other hand have a wide range of personalities and they are usually quite interesting. To seem truely menacing you have to give the villian personality a drive that makes him so dangerous. On a more related note, people love Belkar because he's full of the witty one-liners and is quite unpredictable. There have been times he's sided with our good order members with no (clear) alterior motive. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0612.html)

Leinad

2010-10-26, 03:08 PM

Belkar the Vestige

Coidzor

2010-10-27, 05:44 AM

A one dimensional character who isn't threatening to pretty much anyone in the group. Yeah, real grade A villain material.

Well, make that the basis of your argument rather than the power levels of the canonical villains, then.

Grogmir

2010-10-27, 07:01 AM

Why does everyone think Belkar will live?

:belkar: Cause i'm the funniest thing in this dratted comic.

the Riddler

2010-10-27, 07:50 AM

No idea. I prefer not to speculate too much and just enjoy the story.

You, sir, have a Wisdom score of at least 13. :wink:

Dr.Epic

2010-10-27, 12:01 PM

Well, make that the basis of your argument rather than the power levels of the canonical villains, then.

Well it's a combination of both. If he was at least very powerful, he could be a threat to the Order and they'd really have to work together to defeat him showing the strengths and weaknesses of each member. Since he's not that powerful he can't really do that. If he was at least cunning and could trick other maybe we'd have something (sort of like the Joker) but if you're going to be one dimension you'd better have power, and if you're not going to be powerful, you better be creative and less predictable.

willdelve4beer

2010-10-27, 02:48 PM

:belkar:

Well,

it isn't so much that I think he will 'live', as it is that I find the reaction of those who are so emotionally invested in his 'death' hilarious when the possibility of him surviving is raised, or even tangentially implied. :smallamused:

I mean, I enjoy the series as much as anyone, but it is just a webcomic, not the end of the world. Why folks get so worked up is beyond me.:smallconfused:

Dr.Epic

2010-10-27, 02:50 PM

PirateMonk

2010-10-27, 03:05 PM

"Useless," yes; "Misleading" only in leaving stuff out-where the throne room is, that V says the four words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) to herself, that Xykon would head to Azure City before Girad's Gate, who Belkar would kill, etc. So far, everyone has been true in letter and spirit; it's just that the answers are not in the spirit of the question.

Leaving out key information can be extremely misleading. Furthermore, being given a prophecy and then seeing it be fulfilled as expected usually doesn't make for a satisfying story. The surprise could just be that Belkar dies in an unexpected way, or it could be something weirder. Or maybe it's that the prophecy is the first to be fulfilled in the obvious way.

Haruki-kun

2010-10-27, 03:44 PM

Leaving out key information can be extremely misleading. Furthermore, being given a prophecy and then seeing it be fulfilled as expected usually doesn't make for a satisfying story. The surprise could just be that Belkar dies in an unexpected way, or it could be something weirder. Or maybe it's that the prophecy is the first to be fulfilled in the obvious way.

Not to mention the very specific way in which the prophecy was phrased. My thoughts? He dies. But somehow unexpectedly.

goodyarn

2010-10-27, 05:01 PM

I think there's more to it than Belkar is hilarious, which he is. Belkar is, at times, easy to root for, empathetic. I think this is why so many people have had trouble classifying him as "evil," even though that's clearly what he is.

Consider the boldness of "I am a sexy, shoeless God of War!" or the panache with which he carved up the thieves' guild while seducing Jenny or the special bond he has with Mr. Scruffy.

Think about his duel with Miko, where he was unwilling to kill her when she was unconscious. If you're like me, you were rooting for Belkar to win that fight, even though by any fair accounting he's evil and she's good.

Sure, he was cracking jokes in all of those scenes, but it wasn't the jokes that made me root for him. It was the choices he made and the style with which he made them.

He speaks for the misanthropic little guy in all of us that sometimes wants to stab society in the eye with a dull dagger.

Coidzor

2010-10-28, 08:17 AM

He speaks for the misanthropic little guy in all of us that sometimes wants to stab society in the eye with a dull, daggerrusty spoon.

Fixed it for ya. :smallwink:

Scarlet Knight

2010-10-28, 09:53 AM

Capt Spanner

2010-10-28, 09:56 AM

My view on this is that Belkar will certainly die, and the debate was regarding whether or not he'd survive the gladiatorial combat.

My view on that is that he will. To kill off a main character in a set of pretty inconsequential games is so undramatic it wouldn't be worth doing, even for the lulz or the subversion.

Kish

2010-10-28, 11:33 AM

" I read lots of books on heroes and crooks, and I learned much from both of their styles."
Buffett could have been writing about our little ranger.
...No, he really couldn't.

A lot of people seem to see a much cooler Belkar than is in the comic. Buffett could have been writing about Belkar if he'd written, "I read a few books on heroes and crooks, learned from the styles of the crooks, and decided the heroes were insufferably irritating."

HalfTangible

2010-10-28, 11:54 AM

So far, everyone has been true in letter and spirit; it's just that the answers are not in the spirit of the question.
That's what misleading means!

For the record the most reasonable explanation I have read for blekar living is that he will become undead and therefore stop breathing permanently fulfilling the prophesy. I think he will die but it is a reasonable reading.

No it isn't, because it fails to explain the Oracle's comments about Belkar's death outside of the "breath his last breath" one.

Zevox
Oracle is a jackass, likes to see Belkar pissed off and/or the unofficial ones will cause Roy to draw the wrong conclusion as to the exact time, place or circumstances of Belkar's final death, royally screwing him over.

That said, the undead thing doesn't seem reasonable anyway, in large part because it's too bloody obvious to be a way to screw over the prophecy, and too obvious for something that Rich would do.

Though i think Rich might turn him into an undead and kill him in the same comic just to make fun of the 'he will become and undead' theories. Like with Miko. :smalltongue:

My view on this is that Belkar will certainly die, and the debate was regarding whether or not he'd survive the gladiatorial combat.

My view on that is that he will. To kill off a main character in a set of pretty inconsequential games is so undramatic it wouldn't be worth doing, even for the lulz or the subversion.

No, this debate has been going on since LOOOOOONG before we even knew there was a gladiator arena in the empire of blood.

Zevox

2010-10-28, 01:12 PM

Oracle is a jackass, likes to see Belkar pissed off and/or the unofficial ones will cause Roy to draw the wrong conclusion as to the exact time, place or circumstances of Belkar's final death, royally screwing him over.
Except that two of the Oracle's comments were made during their first visit, which means they were forgotten due to the memory charm (which, remember, he said was in place specifically so that comments like those would be forgotten so that they wouldn't affect anything), and on the second visit he plainly did not expect Roy to remember the "not long for this world" comment, which is why he gave him the freebie "official" prophecy to begin with. So no, that makes no sense at all.

Zevox

Sir_Norbert

2010-11-03, 12:47 PM

In addition, none of the "Belkar's death" prophecies were made to Belkar himself. That sets them aside from all other prophecies in the comic and is why we shouldn't expect a twist. The only reason the Prophecy Twist trope is so common is that when the character himself knows or thinks he knows his own fate, it's fun to see him try to wriggle out of it and then get smacked with the Twist. By contrast, Roy being surprised by Belkar's death not occurring as expected would just make the whole thing into a shaggy dog story.

To the person who said that the prophecy coming true would be giving away the ending of the story: not true. Giving away part of the ending is a legitimate narrative device (as old as the Iliad and Odyssey, in fact) and there are various reasons why an author might want to tease readers by giving partial but entirely correct information, yet holding back something to surprise them with. In this case we don't know anything about how and why Belkar will die, and we know very little about when -- we have a pretty good idea of what proportion of the story is still to come, but no idea at all of how much narrative time it will occupy, so it's still entirely possible that Belkar's death will come right at the end of the story and his humour will still be around all the way up to the grand climax. (Though personally, I would prefer this not to be the case, as I'm not a big Belkar fan... but we'll see.)

maxon

2010-11-03, 07:16 PM

Maybe if Belkar didn't want to come back, it'd mean something like it did for Shojo, but then he'd have to be happier in the afterlife, or have no unresolved business. And given that somebody would have had to kill him, well, why wouldn't he come back for revenge?

mmmmm - you seem to have missed out a step in this scenario: in order for him to come back for revenge, somebody would have to set out to raise him and this begs the question: who in the nine hells would want to raise Belkar once he's dead? If no-one wants to raise you, you are stuck with unresolved business or an unhappy death. A fate Belkar so richly deserves too.

BoomerangFlash

2010-11-03, 09:55 PM

Guys, this might have been mentioned in another thread, I don't know because I don't really frequent the forums that often. If it has been mentioned, forgive me.

Belkar dies before the end of the year, as has been mentioned, possibly right outside the rift into the planet within the planet that V's raven saw. They enter the rift (which they are almost certainly going to do, seeing as how there's few interesting reasons for Rich to introduce it and then NOT have them go there). After entering the rift, they find everything is very difficult, and they need all the help they can get in combat. So, they raise Belkar.

Of course, there could be any number of reasons why they Raise him, but I don't have enough information to make a conjecture about what they could be so I'm going with that one.

So, the prophecy is fulfilled. Belkar dies and never again does he draw breath while on this planet. I can't think of any interesting reasons for him to stay on that planet, so I won't bother listing any. If you guys can make some wild mass guesses about why he might not return to this planet once the group succeeds in doing whatever is required of them there, then feel free to give them.

Gift Jeraff

2010-11-03, 10:12 PM

who in the nine hells would want to raise Belkar once he's dead?
No one.

Someone in the Abyss might want to get him raised, though.

:smallbiggrin:

Zevox

2010-11-03, 10:15 PM

So, the prophecy is fulfilled. Belkar dies and never again does he draw breath while on this planet.
Problem: you're conflating two separate statements. One is that Belkar "will draw his last breath - ever." The other is that he "is not long for this world." They do not together say that he will never again "draw breath while on this planet." They are separate, and if either is breached, the theory fails, unless you're willing to join the few people who insist that the Oracle's comments outside of "official prophecy mode" don't count. And in your case, since your theory restores him to normal life, the "draw his last breath - ever" official prophecy is breached, so under no circumstances would it work.

This is why nobody has seriously suggested that kind of theory to explain the "not long for this world" remark before. In order for it to work not only do you have to far over-literally interpret that remark, but you also have to bring him back as an undead or something of that sort to make it fit with the "official" prophecy, and that's just too convoluted for most anyone.

Zevox

derfenrirwolv

2010-11-04, 08:06 AM

Because prophecy is so often averted and taken at something other than face value in literature that its hard for some people to expect that it might be done flat out as the kobold said it would.

toughluck

2010-11-04, 05:44 PM

<HTML5-compliant sarcasm tag>Why yes, indeed, Belkar can change his name and -- as you can clearly see -- Belkar will take his last breath and should savor his next birthday cake. However, the oracle didn't say anything about Rakleb, who will be very much alive.</sarcasm>

Come on, does anyone really believes there are any loopholes there? The oracle was crystal clear on this and he had his own personal grudge against Belkar, so he wanted to twist the knife a bit.

Gd8908

2010-11-04, 05:47 PM

Well, I personally think not, because:

Every member of the Order, while they have varying degrees of virtue, are defined as a team by their dysfunction. It's why this is still a humor comic and not a fully serious fantasy. To put it bluntly, Roy is sarcastic and dismissive, Elan is stupid, Haley is secretive and manipulative, Durkon is stereotypical, Vaarsuvius is a pompous know-it-all, and Belkar is an evil jerk. They all provide different facets of humor for Mr. Burlew to work with, and losing one would diminish the comic.

I fully agree with that.

fizzybobnewt

2010-11-04, 06:14 PM

I'm surprised that on none of the threads speculating on Belkar's death and, more specifically, how it will affect the Order, has anyone mentioned (that I've seen) how they reacted last time he "died".

:vaarsuvius: "Truly, he was the best of us."

Drakonzeta

2010-11-10, 08:02 PM

While, yes, the oracle's prophecy stated that Belkar would assume a state in which he would die, (no longer breathing), it is also completely possible that there is a loophole to that prophecy, as the Oracle is known to be a smart-aleck with his prophecies. The only time in which he specifically stated that Belkar would die is out of the trance, in which he could fully be lying. Not to say I don't believe he COULD die. It is very possible he will be killed in the arena by the "champion", and his body be incinerated. By the time Durkon would be able to cast True Resurrection, Belkar would have been forgotten/Durkon doesn't care about him enough to cast it. I'm just saying that there are several ways to view it.

NegativeFifteen

2010-11-14, 10:36 PM

I just want his death to be over and done with. Not because I don't like the guy, its just that whenever hes put in a situation where hes going to be called on to fight, there going to be a ton of new threads featuring a new obscure theory on how hes going to die this way. (E.g. Gladiators)

IronWilliam

2010-12-30, 07:12 PM

The Oracle has been known to be "unclear" about predictions, so it's reasonable to think something less obvious will happen. Also, it's not very funny if exactly what he says will happen.

Kish

2010-12-30, 07:22 PM

The Oracle has been known to be "unclear" about predictions,

Such as?

(Hint: Obnoxious is not at all the same thing as misleading.)

Blas_de_Lezo

2010-12-30, 08:06 PM

Because... how was it? He is the "only damn thing still funny in this comic"? Because "people tune in to watch him stab things"? Someone with better memory than me please help. :smallsigh:

SGNenets

2010-12-30, 08:08 PM

(We're still discussing this?)

More on topic, the people who think Belkar will somehow subvert the prophecy (who are NOT everyone, I assure you) mostly think so because A) they like Belkar or B) thinks the party will not be 'complete' without him (technically a subset of A).

However, they point out that the Oracle seems to go out of his way to not simply say "Belkar will die soon" even when he was trying to drive the point home to Roy, which I think is a valid point, motivations for the belief aside.

Now this doesn't mean I personally think Belkar won't die. I think he will, probably with an bang loud enough to last the rest of the OotS without him.

Blas_de_Lezo

2010-12-30, 08:21 PM

I think he will, probably with an bang loud enough to last the rest of the OotS without him.

Oh c'mon, Belkar is the spirit of OotS. The biggest bang would be his absence.

MoonCat

2010-12-30, 08:21 PM

We think Belkar might live because we want him to live, and are ruling out that we might lose such a beloved character. Also, the Oracle generally has twists in his prophesies. Of course, the Giant might know that, so he'll play it straight to confuse us. Or he may think we'll cover that, and not play it staight because of it. Or he could read this and then do it... :smallsigh:

Eh, I'm just going to sit tight and hope the Belkster doesn't die, but I can't be sure of anything.

SGNenets

2010-12-31, 08:35 PM

Oh c'mon, Belkar is the spirit of OotS. The biggest bang would be his absence.

Don't get me wrong. I like Belkar. I just think that if the author believes the story he envisions can be best told through the death of a character, then that's how it should be, though I may be sad to see the character go. Sometimes, a character is truly immortalized by his death, and somehow preventing Belkar's death now would feel like a copout to me.
(I for one was NOT happy with what they did to Tassadar in Starcraft II, for example)

Felixc-91

2010-12-31, 09:07 PM

i don't get why people keep claiming that what the oracle says is subversive, or only strictly true, or whatever. all of his prophecies have come true. clearly true. what his statements have been is not very helpful. they didn't help V find the power he was looking for, Haley didn't really understand what he said till after she could talk... and belkar, i'm not really sure what the point of his question was, but the answer didn't really help him in any way... unless you count motivation. there's been no pattern of loopholes making it not true, even from the hero's perspective. so, Belkar's going to die, soon in in-comic time, but who knows how long in our time. see, not helpful, like usual.

Tvtyrant

2010-12-31, 10:25 PM

Did V actually get the "ultimate arcane power?" Because if so... V sucks at using world shattering power.

SGNenets

2010-12-31, 11:06 PM

Did V actually get the "ultimate arcane power?" Because if so... V sucks at using world shattering power.

Remember that V lost Haerta pretty early on, and I would say Familicide is a pretty world shattering power.

LordShotGun

2010-12-31, 11:09 PM

Two words. Undead Belkar.

Kish

2010-12-31, 11:20 PM

i don't get why people keep claiming that what the oracle says is subversive, or only strictly true, or whatever. all of his prophecies have come true. clearly true.

Because that way, Belkar might survive.

Blas_de_Lezo

2010-12-31, 11:25 PM

Don't get me wrong. I like Belkar. I just think that if the author believes the story he envisions can be best told through the death of a character, then that's how it should be, though I may be sad to see the character go. Sometimes, a character is truly immortalized by his death, and somehow preventing Belkar's death now would feel like a copout to me.
(I for one was NOT happy with what they did to Tassadar in Starcraft II, for example)

Well, from that point of view, I must concur. A cool death while young is better than a boring life until old and senile (e.g. Achilles, Hector, Jim Morrison, Jesus Christ, etc).

Felixc-91

2011-01-01, 12:02 AM

Remember that V lost Haerta pretty early on, and I would say Familicide is a pretty world shattering power. add to that the ability to put dozens of ships any where on the globe s/he pleases, and (if what the IFCC says about hims is true) to any plane s/he chooses... yeah, it qualifies. also, the way V got it fits what the oracle said: by saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), resulting in: I... I must succeed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

G-Man Graves

2011-01-01, 12:02 PM

I see it this way. If Rich wanted us to say "Belkar is going to be dead permanently and forever, with no loopholes", he would have just had the Oracle say "Belkar will be dead and out of your hair, permanently, within the next year." But he didn't. He said "Belkar will draw his last breath." In a comic where there are like a million and one ways to still be an active member without breathing, this is clearly intended to raise ideas of a Belkar that is technically dead but still kicking.

Kish

2011-01-01, 12:58 PM

I see it this way. If Rich wanted us to say "Belkar is going to be dead permanently and forever, with no loopholes", he would have just had the Oracle say "Belkar will be dead and out of your hair, permanently, within the next year." But he didn't. He said "Belkar will draw his last breath."
Among other things.

If he'd used the exact phrasing you suggest...Belkar's fans would have jumped all over the fact that Roy is bald.

G-Man Graves

2011-01-01, 02:55 PM

Among other things.

If he'd used the exact phrasing you suggest...Belkar's fans would have jumped all over the fact that Roy is bald.

Mother of God... Belkar ISN'T going to die!

Mystic Muse

2011-01-01, 03:07 PM

Did V actually get the "ultimate arcane power?" Because if so... V sucks at using world shattering power.

I believe that Rich specifically said that it was the ultimate arcane power and it was for all the wrong reasons.

As for whether Belkar is going to live or not, every theory I've seen ignores one of the other parts of the prophecy.

Just because he didn't need to breathe, doesn't mean he can't enjoy birthday cake. Also, the undead theory ignores the "Not long for this world" part. So, any theory that has him living requires him to not be in this world, not have to breathe, and not be capable of enjoying birthday cake. Undead and in the world of the snarl or on another plane entirely could work, but it would mean he would have to stay there permanently, which could mean he's still out of the story anyway.

Doomboy911

2011-01-01, 04:05 PM

MReav

2011-01-01, 04:09 PM

You know, if Belkar gets thrown into space as some high DR undead with no weapons, he can fulfill all the things the Oracle said. No birthday cake, no need for an IRA, no need to breathe, and is technically dead.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-01, 04:10 PM

Has the theory been brought up that the oracle was simply lying and said it a second time to try and worry him. He may have thought that telling him those things will cause him to mess something up that affects him

It's been brought up, but I don't recall the Oracle ever lying, so there's nothing to give the claim any ground.

You know, if Belkar gets thrown into space as some high DR undead with no weapons, he can fulfill all the things the Oracle said. No birthday cake, no need for an IRA, no need to breathe, and is technically dead.

Still doesn't solve the problem of Belkar no longer having a place in the comic if it happens. Unless there's some reason for the order of the stick to go to space.

Bulzeeb

2011-01-01, 04:16 PM

Problem: you're conflating two separate statements. One is that Belkar "will draw his last breath - ever." The other is that he "is not long for this world." They do not together say that he will never again "draw breath while on this planet." They are separate, and if either is breached, the theory fails, unless you're willing to join the few people who insist that the Oracle's comments outside of "official prophecy mode" don't count. And in your case, since your theory restores him to normal life, the "draw his last breath - ever" official prophecy is breached, so under no circumstances would it work.

This is why nobody has seriously suggested that kind of theory to explain the "not long for this world" remark before. In order for it to work not only do you have to far over-literally interpret that remark, but you also have to bring him back as an undead or something of that sort to make it fit with the "official" prophecy, and that's just too convoluted for most anyone.

Zevox
Let me preface my post by saying that I don't really think Belkar's going to live. However, I'm still going to play Devil's Advocate on a couple of your points.

First off, the Oracle is very capable of outright lying when not in trance. Example: "Pixie Dust. Kobold Dust." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html) Just because he's a prophet does not mean he is obligated to always tell the truth, and in fact there's no absolute guarantee that he's even obligated to tell the truth while in trance, aside that it would be consistent.

Secondly, it's possible the world-within-the-rift does not require its inhabitants to breathe. I can only speculate how, but since it's possibly a different plane, it wouldn't be altogether implausible to say that it's governed by different laws of biology or even physics.

While we're on the topic of implausible, highly speculative theories, how about time travel? Belkar lives a long and successful life, presumably as a gourmet chef, or perhaps just a short one, then goes back in time to the end of the year! There he dies somehow, maybe intentionally as he would prefer glorious death on the battlefield rather than death of old age, or choking on some undercooked meat or something

ziratha

2011-01-01, 04:58 PM

Well, far as I am aware, the only logical loophole in that may exist that makes sense in context relates to the rift.

In the rift, we saw another world. If belkar were to be transported to this other world, this would satisfy the "not of THIS world" clause. Then, there are any number of other ways to circumvent the "last breathe" clause. Therefore I actually find it plausible that either thing may happen. He may die, he may not.

Tvtyrant

2011-01-01, 08:22 PM

I'm hoping Belkar dies to a dispel exploding ruin bomb. Alas it will likely be him acting out a heroic action in the long term hope of not dieing. Maybe blowing up the last gate?

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-01, 08:37 PM

The real challenge for anyone claiming he'll live is not to cover all of what the Oracle said but also make that a better idea for the story than, say, Belkar dying but continuing to be shown in the afterlife. There's no reason to assume Belkar will leave the comic once he dies, even if he's never going to be resurrected.

After all, Eugene's not gonna be resurrected either but I'm sure no one thinks he's not going to show up again.

Koshiro

2011-01-03, 08:43 AM

Fox Box Socks

2011-01-03, 06:04 PM

Wheee first post. Hooray and so forth.

I saw much of the same stuff a few years back in the Harry Potter fandom when Sirius Black bit it. He was a popular character, so a very vocal minority came up with all sorts of theories about how he wasn't really dead and Rowling was planning to bring him back and we would all surely see. Word of God said repeatedly stating that yes, he was really dead and no, he would not becoming back did very little to deter these people. It took the remaining books, including the last one in which Harry spoke to his friggin' ghost about what it was like to die, to finally put the issue to bed.

I think much of the same stuff is going on on the Belkar front. He's likeable and witty and he gets the lion's share of the punch lines, so of course some members of the fandom aren't going to acknowledge the ticking clock looming over his head.

Doesn't mean it isn't there, though.

Zevox

2011-01-04, 12:12 AM

First off, the Oracle is very capable of outright lying when not in trance. Example: "Pixie Dust. Kobold Dust." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html) Just because he's a prophet does not mean he is obligated to always tell the truth, and in fact there's no absolute guarantee that he's even obligated to tell the truth while in trance, aside that it would be consistent.
The problem with that argument is that there is absolutely no reason for the Oracle to lie on this matter. His first two remarks were forgotten when the Order passed through the memory charm, so they can't have been for any ulterior purpose at all unless he was looking for some extremely short-term reaction - and if that was the case, there would be no reason to bring it back up later the way he did. Plus it would render the foreshadowing and prophecy about Belkar's death pointless, and I don't think Rich is going to waste our time that way - he's a better writer than that. On the one you cite he clearly simply does not want to explain how his trances work, so there's a reason. For the prophecies regarding Belkar's death, there is none.

Secondly, it's possible the world-within-the-rift does not require its inhabitants to breathe. I can only speculate how, but since it's possibly a different plane, it wouldn't be altogether implausible to say that it's governed by different laws of biology or even physics.
Except that this still makes it a completely convoluted explanation for his remarks, especially the "savor his next birthday cake" one. Unless you want to argue that it's not implausible that cakes also can't exist on this other world for some reason.

While we're on the topic of implausible, highly speculative theories, how about time travel? Belkar lives a long and successful life, presumably as a gourmet chef, or perhaps just a short one, then goes back in time to the end of the year! There he dies somehow, maybe intentionally as he would prefer glorious death on the battlefield rather than death of old age, or choking on some undercooked meat or something
Makes no sense - then why would the Oracle be warning that he is going to die shortly? Moreover, why even include the prophecy in the comic if the explanation were something like that?

Zevox

Swordpriest

2011-01-04, 01:20 AM

Secondly, and more importantly, I have my problems with the concept of the Oracle. His visions are based on a deterministic reality - everything will happen exactly predetermined. Fate is unchangeable. Free will an illusion. Whatever the characters do is truly meaningless. It's all destiny.
I really, really do not like such a picture of the fictional world. It devalues the stories, the heroism, the villainy. Thus I hope the oracle will be proven wrong at some point in an epic "Screw destiny!" moment.

Yes, the idea that "it is written" sticks in my craw, also. :smallsmile:

Felixc-91

2011-01-04, 01:38 AM

I hope (but do not really expect or not expect) that Belkar will live.

Firstly because I like the Character. I liked him better earlier in the comic, though, when he was more of a morbid oddball and less of... I dunno... Eric Cartman. Lately we're constantly being reminded of how horrid he really is and why he deserves to be treated like rubbish. I don't like that kind of heavy-handed morality and I don't want to take the characters that seriously.

Secondly, and more importantly, I have my problems with the concept of the Oracle. His visions are based on a deterministic reality - everything will happen exactly predetermined. Fate is unchangeable. Free will an illusion. Whatever the characters do is truly meaningless. It's all destiny.
I really, really do not like such a picture of the fictional world. It devalues the stories, the heroism, the villainy. Thus I hope the oracle will be proven wrong at some point in an epic "Screw destiny!" moment. Since Belkar's death is the clearest, most concrete vision so far and has been rubbed under our noses several times, it is the most obvious set-up for such a development.

Yes, the idea that "it is written" sticks in my craw, also. :smallsmile: true, its not the kind of of prophesying that leaves open the possibility of fun: ok, there's this horrible even that's coming, how do we fix it? but Rich dose manage to present it fairly well given the kind of prophesying we're working with. the oracle isn't trying to be helpful, he answers your question, technically, and if that doesn't help you then screw you. so, while it presents a fixed fate universe, we don't actually get to know what that fate is. yes belkar will die, but given how time in the comic compares to real time, we have no idea when, or for that matter how or why...

Koshiro

2011-01-04, 06:02 AM

true, its not the kind of of prophesying that leaves open the possibility of fun: ok, there's this horrible even that's coming, how do we fix it? but Rich dose manage to present it fairly well given the kind of prophesying we're working with. the oracle isn't trying to be helpful, he answers your question, technically, and if that doesn't help you then screw you.
Well, the problem is that it cannot help you or not help you, because in such a universe there is no such thing as a decision. The most reasonable thing to do, after realizing that the universe works that way, would be to settle down and just do whatever your hedonistic impulses tell you to do, since it is all meaningless anyway. Even if not going that far, "consulting" the oracle in the hope of getting a valuable hint is in and by itself entirely pointless.
Now that would be pretty depressing IRL, but more to the point, it really lets the air out of a fictional setting. I probably, nay surely think about this too much, but it really devalues everything the protagonists - or the antagonists - ever do.

Dr.Epic

2011-01-04, 03:32 PM

People think Belkar with won't die because a live body and a dead body have the same number of particles. Structurally, there's no discernible difference. Life and death are unquantifiable abstracts.:smallwink:

leakingpen

2011-01-04, 05:36 PM

i say he gets turned into an undead, and likes it that way.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-04, 08:27 PM

i say he gets turned into an undead, and likes it that way.
Why was the Oracle gloating about it then?

Popertop

2011-01-04, 09:34 PM

The comic hasn't let me down so far, and I think whatever he chooses to do will be interesting and well done.

The only thing I'm worried with about this comic is that time will end before it gets done.

Felixc-91

2011-01-05, 03:21 AM

Well, the problem is that it cannot help you or not help you, because in such a universe there is no such thing as a decision. The most reasonable thing to do, after realizing that the universe works that way, would be to settle down and just do whatever your hedonistic impulses tell you to do, since it is all meaningless anyway. Even if not going that far, "consulting" the oracle in the hope of getting a valuable hint is in and by itself entirely pointless.
Now that would be pretty depressing IRL, but more to the point, it really lets the air out of a fictional setting. I probably, nay surely think about this too much, but it really devalues everything the protagonists - or the antagonists - ever do.acctualy (i only just noticed this) the oracle makes a comment that indicates that things might not be fixed. see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), second to last panel. if the plot sequence can be screwed up based on how he asks the question, then the future is malleable.

Koshiro

2011-01-05, 09:16 AM

acctualy (i only just noticed this) the oracle makes a comment that indicates that things might not be fixed. see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), second to last panel. if the plot sequence can be screwed up based on how he asks the question, then the future is malleable.
Well, yes, the oracle himself has been acting inconsistently regarding this:
"Worth a shot" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), he says. Except that it wasn't, because he knew 100% Belkar was going to kill him and all his other actions (the village, the resurrection) show that.
I'd say he glances into the future only occasionally and hasn't really pondered the implications of his own predictions deeply enough.

Bulzeeb

2011-01-05, 09:59 AM

The problem with that argument is that there is absolutely no reason for the Oracle to lie on this matter. His first two remarks were forgotten when the Order passed through the memory charm, so they can't have been for any ulterior purpose at all unless he was looking for some extremely short-term reaction - and if that was the case, there would be no reason to bring it back up later the way he did. Plus it would render the foreshadowing and prophecy about Belkar's death pointless, and I don't think Rich is going to waste our time that way - he's a better writer than that. On the one you cite he clearly simply does not want to explain how his trances work, so there's a reason. For the prophecies regarding Belkar's death, there is none.

Except that this still makes it a completely convoluted explanation for his remarks, especially the "savor his next birthday cake" one. Unless you want to argue that it's not implausible that cakes also can't exist on this other world for some reason.

Makes no sense - then why would the Oracle be warning that he is going to die shortly? Moreover, why even include the prophecy in the comic if the explanation were something like that?

Zevox

Well first off, good job ignoring and subsequently removing my preface. But anyway.

First point: the lack of an obvious reason is not sufficient evidence to dismiss the idea entirely. This is strictly speculative (please don't ignore that statement with tunnel-vision), but there are plenty of reasons why the Oracle would want to lie to Roy: he doesn't like Roy, so he's lying to him to mess with him; he doesn't like Belkar, so he wants him to be killed (telling Roy Belkar is sure to die is a good way to get Roy to not try to protect him, similar in terms of plot to how the witches in Macbeth may have manipulated Macbeth towards fulfilling his prophecy). But it isn't really my place to speculate on such matters, so I'm not going to seriously defend them, and my main point anyway was that we can't just take the Oracle's word as complete fact, as he's still a person with beliefs and motives, not a mere device.

2ndly, it seems you don't understand what implausible means, or you interpreted my post as meaning that I believed my theory to not be implausible. Since I can't really say anything except what I already stated (i.e. that I believe the theory is implausible), I'm going to just have to say nothing.

Jayabalard

2011-01-05, 10:31 AM

Try saying that while Belkar force feeds you your own liver. He's killed dozens (hundreds?) of innocents for the stupidest reasons, and would have done much worse if not for roy. About him lacking power, that's only because the rest of the oots is as much powerful as him. "The psyco who wanders around spreading death" may be a perfectly legitimate bbeg for a 6-9 level party.This doesn't seem to be a very valid counterargument. Remember, if you're going to argue against the statement you quoted, you have to defend "Belkar would make a better villain than Redcloak or most of the rest of Team Evil" ... because that's the statement he's arguing against.

Redcloak and team evil have killed thousands; I wouldn't even disagree with someone who claimed millions (certainly, if they win their death count is going to be in the millions). Redcloak and team evil are not the BBEG for a 6-9 level party.

"The psyco who wanders around spreading death" is not even in the same league as Redcloak and team evil; I'm not even convinced he's in the same league as Nale.

Zevox

2011-01-05, 12:17 PM

Well first off, good job ignoring and subsequently removing my preface. But anyway.
I did not ignore it, I left it out of my reply because I had nothing to say to it. If you wish to play devil's advocate, that's fine, but don't expect me to not argue against what you say all the same just because of that.

First point: the lack of an obvious reason is not sufficient evidence to dismiss the idea entirely. This is strictly speculative (please don't ignore that statement with tunnel-vision), but there are plenty of reasons why the Oracle would want to lie to Roy: he doesn't like Roy, so he's lying to him to mess with him; he doesn't like Belkar, so he wants him to be killed (telling Roy Belkar is sure to die is a good way to get Roy to not try to protect him, similar in terms of plot to how the witches in Macbeth may have manipulated Macbeth towards fulfilling his prophecy). But it isn't really my place to speculate on such matters, so I'm not going to seriously defend them, and my main point anyway was that we can't just take the Oracle's word as complete fact, as he's still a person with beliefs and motives, not a mere device.
Except that your speculation there falls firmly into what I already pointed out doesn't make sense. Because his offhand remarks are wiped from visitors' minds by the memory charm, he can't accomplish anything with them save for extremely short-term reactions, and having the explanation for all this foreshadowing be "the Oracle was messing with them, it doesn't actually mean anything" would render the entire thing pointless, which I can hardly believe anyone would seriously believe will be the case as it would be terrible writing. Hell, remember that the entire point of the memory charm is to make sure visitors don't remember his offhand remarks about the future, and his hints at Belkar's death were the example he used of that. So yes, we can in fact take the Oracle's word as fact here - that's the only thing that makes sense.

2ndly, it seems you don't understand what implausible means, or you interpreted my post as meaning that I believed my theory to not be implausible.
You specifically argued that your second point was not "altogether implausible," and certainly seem to still be arguing for your first one. The third is the only one you called implausible, and that's why I spent so little time on that one.

Zevox

Bulzeeb

2011-01-05, 05:38 PM

I did not ignore it, I left it out of my reply because I had nothing to say to it. If you wish to play devil's advocate, that's fine, but don't expect me to not argue against what you say all the same just because of that.

Fair enough.

Except that your speculation there falls firmly into what I already pointed out doesn't make sense. Because his offhand remarks are wiped from visitors' minds by the memory charm, he can't accomplish anything with them save for extremely short-term reactions, and having the explanation for all this foreshadowing be "the Oracle was messing with them, it doesn't actually mean anything" would render the entire thing pointless, which I can hardly believe anyone would seriously believe will be the case as it would be terrible writing. Hell, remember that the entire point of the memory charm is to make sure visitors don't remember his offhand remarks about the future, and his hints at Belkar's death were the example he used of that. So yes, we can in fact take the Oracle's word as fact here - that's the only thing that makes sense.
I'll give you that his off-hand remarks would have no effect, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't say them regardless. By the same logic, he has equally no motive to say anything true barring his time in oracular trance because his patrons would forget those statements as well.

As for the point of bad writing - not necessarily. The point would be that the Oracle is expected by the Order (and usually by the audience) of not being a person with interests and motives, but as merely a device. That he could be lying would then be a twist of those expectations. And I made the points that he could be doing it to mess with the Order as just an example of why he might lie - it's more likely that he'd lie if he were ordered to by a deity or the like, but that would be pure speculation.

You specifically argued that your second point was not "altogether implausible," and certainly seem to still be arguing for your first one. The third is the only one you called implausible, and that's why I spent so little time on that one.

Zevox
Ah, I should have specified which point I meant was implausible. I meant I never found the time travel theory to be plausible, not the "possibly not needing air on the rift-planet" point.

Swordpriest

2011-01-05, 06:19 PM

My only addition to the conversation is that Roy and Haley expect Belkar's death to be neat and convenient for them.

This alone, knowing how Rich operates, means that whatever happens is highly unlikely to be either neat or convenient for them. :smallsmile:

To explain in a little more detail -- they practically said "Belkar will be dead soon, no question about it, and his being gone will make everything easier for us." This is about as big an invitation for actuality to kick them in the teeth as "I'm getting too old for this" or "I'm glad I'm safe up here" (in the Tsukiko vs. elemental fight).

The fact that they're so smugly certain of what's going to happen tells me that they're not going to be let off so lightly. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

2011-01-05, 10:43 PM

As for the point of bad writing - not necessarily. The point would be that the Oracle is expected by the Order (and usually by the audience) of not being a person with interests and motives, but as merely a device. That he could be lying would then be a twist of those expectations. And I made the points that he could be doing it to mess with the Order as just an example of why he might lie - it's more likely that he'd lie if he were ordered to by a deity or the like, but that would be pure speculation.
That would only work if he were lying for some reason which was in some way important - if he were lying in order to manipulate the Order for his own ends, for instance. However, that clearly cannot be the case. As I pointed out, the memory charm ensures that his remarks from that first visit can have no point beyond possibly fishing for an incredibly short-term reaction, and having that be the explanation for them would be just plain bad writing because it would render what appears to be ominous foreshadowing, which has since been followed up with a full-blown prophecy no less, completely and utterly pointless.

In addition, it'd be pretty hard to come up with any plausible explanation for what possible purpose lying to the Order about this could serve beyond mild amusement for himself to begin with. It's not like Belkar knows of this prophecy and is worrying about it or anything, only Roy was told of it, and the only other person we've seen him mention it to (and obliquely at that) is Haley, and neither of them much care about whether Belkar dies. It's not affecting the characters' actions one bit. The only purpose it is serving at this point is foreshadowing for us readers.

Ah, I should have specified which point I meant was implausible. I meant I never found the time travel theory to be plausible, not the "possibly not needing air on the rift-planet" point.
And again: I suppose you also don't find it implausible that for some reason cakes cannot exist on that planet as well? Because yes, I would certainly say that any explanation trying to over-literally interpret the "not long for this world" remark using the rift-planet is going to be completely implausible simply because of the number of other factors it also has to explain.

Zevox

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-05, 10:46 PM

The fact that they're so smugly certain of what's going to happen tells me that they're not going to be let off so lightly. :smallbiggrin:
Exactly. Rich has all but flat-out told us this is definitely going to happen, which pretty much guarantees that all the surprises will be in the way he dies and the effect it has on the Order. I have every confidence that once it's happened, there will even be people who have been predicting Belkar to ascend to Godhood who will be loudly praising Rich for the way things turned out - we'll probably even see plenty of Belkar fanboys who about-face and say they're actually glad he died, because what happened next was so awesome it makes up for Belkar not being on the mortal plane.

I'd kinda wish it'd hurry up and happen, though, 'cause reading another minor variation on, "But wait! Belkar could become an undead!" or, "But the Oracle might just be wrong!" for the seven billionth time is getting a tad old.

Crazeemeel

2011-01-05, 10:55 PM

I haven't read this whole thread since its hella long but heres my take...

Belkar is definitely going to die, It has been clearly stated by the Oracle as well as Rich in some part of one of the books, I think it was DSTP in one of the chapter intros.

Personally, I can't wait for this to happen. Doing this will make Belkar's storyline that much more interesting. Some of my favorite strips were the ones that showed Roy in the good afterlife. Rich had so many clever ideas for how the LG afterlife worked that I can't wait to see what happens to Belkar in the Chaotic Evil afterlife.

I'm pretty sure I even read one time in one of the earlier books intros where Rich was joking about how cool it would be to kill off Belkar and have him travel around in the evil afterlife. Maybe it will make cause him to be involved in the storyline even more heavily through interactions with the inter-something-evil group of people that reside there and are after the gate.

So what's not to love about Belkar dying?

PsychoticDwarf

2011-01-05, 11:09 PM

Someone's probably mentioned this, but the Oracle said that he would take his 'last breath - ever', not that he would die. For all we know he could turn into some sort of undead, or live without breathing through some other means.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-05, 11:39 PM

Someone's probably mentioned this
No, I don't believe so. Awesome, I guess he's not going to die after all.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-05, 11:40 PM

No, I don't believe so. Awesome, I guess he's not going to die after all.

While I'm aware you're being sarcastic here, I just feel like I should point out, in order to become undead, you usually have to die first.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-05, 11:43 PM

While I'm aware you're being sarcastic here, I just feel like I should point out, in order to become undead, you usually have to die first.
"...or live without breathing through some other means."

I really think he's onto something here.

PsychoticDwarf

2011-01-06, 12:30 AM

No need to be rude. I haven't read many theories so far, as I only occasionally read or post on this forum.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-06, 12:54 AM

No need to be rude. I haven't read many theories so far, as I only occasionally read or post on this forum.
If you're going to post in a thread, read it first. At very least, read the first and last pages before adding to it. If you'd done that, you'd have seen that I was only just then moaning about how tiresome it is to have to keep reading exactly what you posted mere minutes later.

Yuki Akuma

2011-01-06, 06:44 AM

People think Belkar will live?

I was banking on undeath.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-06, 07:37 PM

Let's see, the reason is... um... Cause he will?

I can't believe anyone would believe that Belkar is going to die... nothing ever says he will die...

Read them again... the Oracle knows that Roy will relate the facts to Belkar, Belkar will freak out at the most inoppurtune moment, and it will really mess with Belkar's head... not one statement was ever about him dying.

1) The Order know they're strip characters... they don't actually breath, so if Belkar were to take a single breath and then never take another, that would be one pointless but possible way to 'Draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year'

2) Even in the previous statement, we can't really read inflection... If I take a breath, hold it from 11:58pm Dec 31 until 12:01am Jan 1, I drew my last breath ever before the end of the year... I will never draw another breath in that previous year no matter how I try...

3) The presumption that drawing has anything to do with him inhaling and exhaling... a) draw frequently means some form of art or cooking (and we know Belkar is a Gourmet Chef)... b) draw can also mean to lure or attact... and Breath has an extra special connotation that is being missed as well (Note both one of Belkar's potential foes and the Queen of the and he is in are both Draconic<sp?> specieses... which means they have the only Breath that matters... a Breath Weapon... If Roy were in danger in the big arena, Belkar leaps and attracts the breath weapon of the queen or the Dragon Bounty Hunter... Belkar would be drawing his least breath -- ever -- before the end of the year... especially if he gets rewarded with some item like a ring of breath weapon repulsion or something).

Oh, and for the fool that said Belkar has no Empathy whatsoever... um... actually he has plenty of Empathy, and he tries to use it frequently :) It just happens to be Animal Empathy... he doesn't have humanoid Empathy because humanoids have been jerks to him his entire short life.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-06, 08:20 PM

You don't appear to know what the word "ever" means.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-07, 05:36 AM

You don't appear to know what the word "ever" means.

–adverb
1. at all times; always: an ever-present danger; He is ever ready to find fault.
2. continuously: ever since then.
3. at any time: Have you ever seen anything like it?
4. in any possible case; by any chance; at all (often used to intensify or emphasize a phrase or an emotional reaction as surprise or impatience): How did you ever manage to do it? If the band ever plays again, we will dance.

You and many others are fixated on the absolute of #2, but are blatantly ignoring the fact that the statment was made ambiguous by the spacing... ie it wasn't 'By the end of the year, Belkar will draw his last breath ever' nor was it even 'Belkar will draw his last breath ever, by the end of the year'... it was 'Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- by the end of the year' and that usage of it could in fact have been deliberate to point more to the #3 version... ie, 'At any time before the end of the year, Belkar will draw his last breath'... Think of the old adage of 'I found it in the last place I ever looked' the last place is almost always the last place you ever looked for the reason that you stop looking after you find it... Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- by the end of the year is ambiguous (Moreso then even V's gender), because it is a Prophecy, and Prophecies tend to be, if not always are, meant to be correct without being exact... In fact, the Oracle show this with his attempts to make his prophecy to Belkar correct by any means neccessary, to the point of inciting Belkar to kill him just to prove himself right, and in addition making a town just to stick it to Belkar... The Oracle wants Belkar to be dead, so he tried to tell Roy and the others various things to make sure Belkar dies... the term for that is a Self-Fufilling Prophecy...

Just because you don't adore the 'Sexy Shoeless G-D of War', doesn't mean he'll just up and die for you. In fact, there is only one thing listed that can kill Belkar (The Snarl), proof of this is that when asked what he is, Belkar was repeatedly asked until he made the right statement of his true nature... Belkar is... A Sexy Shoeless Deity of War... and as such can not be slain by mere miniscule mediocre mundane mortal means.

It seems to me that everyone who thinks Belkar is going to permanently bite the big one has rolled multiple 1s on their 'Genre Saavy' Checks, getting massive critical failures, and thereby falling for one of the classic blunders, "Genies, Fortune Tellers, generally any wish, prophecy, prediction, etc. if it can be warped, shall be warped, and should never be believed for its literal face value... especially a DM"

Mystic Muse

2011-01-07, 10:19 AM

Just because you don't adore the 'Sexy Shoeless G-D of War', doesn't mean he'll just up and die for you. In fact, there is only one thing listed that can kill Belkar (The Snarl), proof of this is that when asked what he is, Belkar was repeatedly asked until he made the right statement of his true nature... Belkar is... A Sexy Shoeless Deity of War... and as such can not be slain by mere miniscule mediocre mundane mortal means. Funny how a straight fighter is capable of beating him back to basic if he's actually a god of war. Until he shows himself capable of doing something only a god can do, there's no reason for us to believe he's a god of war. Even if only the snarl could kill him, what exactly is to stop the snarl from killing him? They're going after another gate and the snarl could end up killing him.

It seems to me that everyone who thinks Belkar is going to permanently bite the big one has rolled multiple 1s on their 'Genre Saavy' Checks, getting massive critical failures, and thereby falling for one of the classic blunders, "Genies, Fortune Tellers, generally any wish, prophecy, prediction, etc. if it can be warped, shall be warped, and should never be believed for its literal face value... especially a DM" Except both the prophecies that have come true (maybe a third if Blackwing got what he asked about) weren't warped at all. "Don't look the gift horse in the mmouth" wasn't literal, but Belkar killing one of the listed people was completely accurate and literal. Honestly, what seems more plausible, that all of the statements means Belkar is goign to die, or that he's going to go through some convoluted means of fulfilling each statement? Rich could of course, make that happen, but until there's some proof that any of it could happen that way, there are a lot of people you aren't going to convince.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-07, 10:44 AM

that usage of it could in fact have been deliberate to point more to the #3 version... ie, 'At any time before the end of the year, Belkar will draw his last breath'...
Except your #3 definition doesn't mean anything like that. "Have you ever seen anything like it" is not the same question as "Will you ever see anything like it", nor does it mean "Have you seen anything like it sometime this year". It means, as per the definition there, "Have you seen anything like it, at any time?". But it's restricted, because it's past tense. The Oracle's prophesy is not.

Think of the old adage of 'I found it in the last place I ever looked'
I've heard a near-identical phrase many times before, but that is literally the first time I've heard anyone put the word "ever" into it.

Ever. :smallwink:

Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- by the end of the year is ambiguous
It's really not.

Just because you don't adore the 'Sexy Shoeless G-D of War', doesn't mean he'll just up and die for you.
Just for me? Oh, by no means. I have no problem with Belkar whatsoever. I have no emotional involvement in any character in the strip and never have; I merely enjoy what they bring to story, and I expect Belkar's death to bring a wealth of riches. That's what he's gonna up and die for.

In fact, there is only one thing listed that can kill Belkar (The Snarl), proof of this is that when asked what he is, Belkar was repeatedly asked until he made the right statement of his true nature... Belkar is... A Sexy Shoeless Deity of War... and as such can not be slain by mere miniscule mediocre mundane mortal means.
...

Um, 'K. Moving on...

It seems to me that everyone who thinks Belkar is going to permanently bite the big one has rolled multiple 1s on their 'Genre Saavy' Checks, getting massive critical failures, and thereby falling for one of the classic blunders, "Genies, Fortune Tellers, generally any wish, prophecy, prediction, etc. if it can be warped, shall be warped, and should never be believed for its literal face value... especially a DM"
In which case, O "Genre-Savvy" One, I invite you to answer the post I made at the top of the last page:

The real challenge for anyone claiming he'll live is not to cover all of what the Oracle said but also make that a better idea for the story than, say, Belkar dying but continuing to be shown in the afterlife. There's no reason to assume Belkar will leave the comic once he dies, even if he's never going to be resurrected.

After all, Eugene's not gonna be resurrected either but I'm sure no one thinks he's not going to show up again.

Swordpriest

2011-01-07, 10:49 AM

Myself, I think he's dead. However, I'd give a 50%/50% chance to the undead theory, if only because it would foul up Roy's expectations so completely. :smallamused:

Strife Warzeal

2011-01-07, 10:53 AM

After all, Eugene's not gonna be resurrected either but I'm sure no one thinks he's not going to show up again.

I think Eugene died of old age so I don't think he can be resurrected, but your point is still valid.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-07, 10:55 AM

I think Eugene died of old age so I don't think he can be resurrected, but your point is still valid.
Eugene did die of old age. I don't see how that's relevant at all though.

Strife Warzeal

2011-01-07, 11:02 AM

Eugene did die of old age. I don't see how that's relevant at all though.

Sorry I misread, don't mind that.

leakingpen

2011-01-07, 01:13 PM

Well first off, good job ignoring and subsequently removing my preface. But anyway.

First point: the lack of an obvious reason is not sufficient evidence to dismiss the idea entirely. This is strictly speculative (please don't ignore that statement with tunnel-vision), but there are plenty of reasons why the Oracle would want to lie to Roy: he doesn't like Roy, so he's lying to him to mess with him; he doesn't like Belkar, so he wants him to be killed (telling Roy Belkar is sure to die is a good way to get Roy to not try to protect him, similar in terms of plot to how the witches in Macbeth may have manipulated Macbeth towards fulfilling his prophecy). But it isn't really my place to speculate on such matters, so I'm not going to seriously defend them, and my main point anyway was that we can't just take the Oracle's word as complete fact, as he's still a person with beliefs and motives, not a mere device.

2ndly, it seems you don't understand what implausible means, or you interpreted my post as meaning that I believed my theory to not be implausible. Since I can't really say anything except what I already stated (i.e. that I believe the theory is implausible), I'm going to just have to say nothing.

Hes evil? always a good reason to lie.

Jjeinn-tae

2011-01-07, 04:52 PM

The sooner he's killed off, the sooner he gets his spin-off

Belkar
Slaughters Hell
The Musical

Though really, has it directly said that he'll die? Maybe he'll be turned to stone and never turned back (he would never breathe again) or be confined to an iron lung (as it's not him breathing). There are plenty of ways it could turn out worse for him when he's technically not dead.

Personally I think he'll die, I used to think he would turn on the Order... but now I'm thinking his death will be more heroic. Probably completely to the surprise of the rest of the Order.

hamishspence

2011-01-07, 05:01 PM

"not long for this world" was one of the phrases used.

Though "Draw his last breath- ever, before the end of the year" was the only one done as a prophesy, colored speech bubble, green glow, and all that.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-07, 06:21 PM

Eugene did die of old age. I don't see how that's relevant at all though.

Eugene is a powerful spellcaster (a fact he keeps beating over Roy's head) which allows him to appear and only to Roy because of the link to the Sword, or via taking a Deva's place in a mystical circle that he is confined and bound to by another powerful spellcaster.

As to his dying of old age, the relevance is... ressurecting him would be a waste as he'd just die immediately afterwards from Old Age... again.

Belkar however is a physical being, not a magic wielder, and therefore would have the limits that Roy did, which mean unless V is going to cast some spell to bind Belkar's spirit in a circle which would mean Belkar is stuck in one place, then Belkar could only be an active character if 1) The oracle lied, 2) The Oracle was wrong, 3) There is another Belkar to actually die instead, 4) Belkar becomes undead, 5) The prophecy is meant to be misleading...

Note: The Oracle knew, and nay, indended that Roy would remember it all... The Oracle's ability is accute enough to know when to have himself resurrected time and again, so you think he didn't know that Dismissing Roy's spirit would bypass the memory wipe? He knew what he was saying, he knew how to say it, and he doesn't like Roy nor Belkar because they physically abuse him, so if he keeps making them paranoid, they may decide to never visit again when they become to afraid his predictions will tell of their doom. AND He knows his plan will work if he lies, because he has a supposedly spotless track record for everyone... except Belkar... Belkar didn't cause the death of anyone Belkar asked about... those that are permanently dead were not by Belkar's hand or even his actions, those and if they didn't stay dead, then he didn't cause their death, he caused their temporary incapacitation.

I think Belkar's deitichood is like Banjo and Slapstick's, limited due to so few followers, but Belkar's own self-worship is sufficient to make prophecies fail when used in relation to him.

What is more simple and logical, that a webcomic is going to kill off one of the funniest and most controversial main characters that has been developed over years of drawing/writing, and is integral to the balance and pathos of the series just to prove the words of a nameless (An Oracle is a job title, like priest or ninja or Paladin or blacksmith... he fits a purpose, and is therefore throw away unless he is meant to be thrown away repeatedly or is a plot device) minion of Tiamet (Tiamat is a greedy, vain, and arrogant goddess who embodies all the strengths of evil dragonkind, and few of their weaknesses. Tiamat is most concerned with spreading evil, defeating good, and propagating chromatic dragons. She never forgives a slight. Although she is not averse to razing the occasional village, her true schemes are subtle and hard to detect. She has been compared to a puppeteer manipulating her creations from within shadows) ... or that the nameless minion was lying to defeat good, spread evil, propagate chromatic (Blue, Red, Black, White) dragons, getting revenge for the slight (V for slaying all the Black and Shadow Dragons; not to mention the impending deaths of the Blue Dragon Bounty Hunter, the Red Dragon Queen, and possibly the White Dragon Priest... He's White, not Albino, and that will become a major issue very soon... And especially Belkar for his Kobold Killing Spree... Yikyik, then Yokyok, then his threats and attempts on the Oracle, soon to be Yakyak, Yukyuk, Yekyek, Yykyyk, Yckyck, Yskysk, Yhkyhk, and maybe even Yzkyzk and Ywkywk.

Personally I think it is more likely Tiamet wanting revenge and trying to manipulate the Good Guys and help the Bad Guys is having her Oracle lie then it is that Belkar is going to die in a permanent manner (if at all).

What is more likely:

Ruin a Great Comic on purpose?
Create intrigue and controversy with ambiguous words that tend to mean one thing, but like any good GM can be twisted to mean something else entirely to keep readers reading on purpose?

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-07, 06:48 PM

As to his dying of old age, the relevance is... ressurecting him would be a waste as he'd just die immediately afterwards from Old Age... again.
We already know that Roy has no intention of resurrecting Belkar, and there's no reason to assume anyone else will either, so the difference is minimal. For both Eugene and Belkar, there will be no resurrection.

Belkar however is a physical being, not a magic wielder, and therefore would have the limits that Roy did,
...like that big chunk of the comic where we saw Roy in Celestia, you mean?

Belkar could only be an active character if 1) The oracle lied, 2) The Oracle was wrong, 3) There is another Belkar to actually die instead, 4) Belkar becomes undead, 5) The prophecy is meant to be misleading...
6) He continues to be shown in the afterlife...

Belkar didn't cause the death of anyone Belkar asked about... those that are permanently dead were not by Belkar's hand or even his actions, those and if they didn't stay dead, then he didn't cause their death, he caused their temporary incapacitation.
The Oracle only answers what was asked, not what was meant. If Belkar had wanted to know if he killed any of those people permanently, then he should have said. But Belkar only really cared about whether he'd get to stab any of them until the life left their body. That they might get resurrected again afterwards likely didn't even occur to him.

What is more likely:

Ruin a Great Comic on purpose?
Create intrigue and controversy with ambiguous words that tend to mean one thing, but like any good GM can be twisted to mean something else entirely to keep readers reading on purpose?
"Kill Belkar off for good" and "ruin a great comic on purpose" are not even nearly the same thing.

I notice, despite your rambling walls of text, that you once again haven't even touched on the final point of my previous post - which is the one I specifically invited you to answer.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-07, 07:00 PM

he has a supposedly spotless track record for everyone... except Belkar... Belkar didn't cause the death of anyone Belkar asked about... those that are permanently dead were not by Belkar's hand or even his actions, those and if they didn't stay dead, then he didn't cause their death, he caused their temporary incapacitation.

Causing somebody's death, and having them stay dead are two different things. Belkar caused the death of the oracle. Even if he came back, he still died which is fulfilling the prophecy.

So, yes, the Oracle's track record is currently spotless. Even if Belkar dies, big deal. Tiamat wouldn't be responsible for diminishing the good in the world since Belkar is undeniably evil.

Also, Malack is a lizardfolk, not a white half-dragon. He specifically mentions he's a lizardfolk and that he doesn't worship Tiamat.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-08, 03:28 PM

Causing somebody's death, and having them stay dead are two different things. Belkar caused the death of the oracle. Even if he came back, he still died which is fulfilling the prophecy.

So, yes, the Oracle's track record is currently spotless. Even if Belkar dies, big deal. Tiamat wouldn't be responsible for diminishing the good in the world since Belkar is undeniably evil.

Also, Malack is a lizardfolk, not a white half-dragon. He specifically mentions he's a lizardfolk and that he doesn't worship Tiamat.

Malack is a liar... he already lied about his own supposed deities. Nergal is at best in real mythology an aspect of Satan, in DnD mythology he is a lesser Devil who serves the likes of Tiamet... as for Ershkagel, well in real mythology she is the lesser entity who was charged with knocking Nergal down and then dominated him as her slave, as for in DnD she is nothing, non-existant...

In addition, his assistant is an Urd (Winged Kobold), a blatant follower of Tiamet.

Likewise, we know the Oracle is Tiamet's Oracle, and Tiamet is majorly into deception and manipulation. Also, the Oracle was wrong, he tried to twist Windstriker's never dying, Miko's suicidal actions, Roy's death at the Phlump's absence, and Vaarsuvius' never dying either as being Belkar's fault because his prophecy had failed... he beat the subject to the put to get Belkar to assist in his faux-suicide... Sorry, you guys that want to side with the lying Oracle of an Evil Dragon Queen Goddess of Deception and Manipulation, need to realize, if the Oracle planned to be killed, he wasn't killed, he commited suicide and had Belkar unwittingly assist him just so he could cause more trouble for good.

And yes, Belkar is aligned to Evil, but he is a Force for good. He is an Evil person that kills and slaughters Evil beings, en mass. Belkar has actually as far as I can tell, since joining the Order, never killed a single Good being. Similarly Miko seems to be a 'Good' person who is more harmful and attacks and hurts 'Good Guys' most of the time. Seems to me that Tiamet would want any Evil being that was constantly helping Good to be terrified... and the predictions of Belkar's death aren't told to Belkar, they're told to Roy, the Most Goodie-Goodie of the Good Guys.

And I actually found, while showing the OotS to a friend, the offense that Tiamet and her Oracle blame Belkar for, and wish his torment. Belkar killed Trigak, a named opponent who was meant to be a reoccuring foe (Haley even said so), but Belkar stopped that. Unlike the nameless Oracle who is only alive because he is a plot device which is meant to be flawed, fallible, and yet to be right about anything on this trip... Haley was aided by a wolf in sheeps clothing, not a gift horse (Nale is not a Gift Horse, a gift horse is good, Nale is not), V didn't recieve complete and total arcane power, Durkon has not returned to his homeland (posthumously, posthumorously, or otherwise), Blackwing didn't need any Ginko Bilboa (and hasn't found any, so it doesn't matter)... so... the only Prophecy we know he's gotton right since the Order formed was... Telling the Black Dragon, a fellow worshipper and servant of Tiamet, who killed her child? So he is only right when it directly helps himself, propogates evil, or another follow of Tiamet...

Actually, the Order is slowly racking up quite a tally of Tiamet followers that they have slain:

Belkar: Trigak, Yikyik
Belkar's Bounty: Yokyok
Varsuvius: Baby Black Dragon
Darth V: Mama Black Dragon, All other Black and Shadow dragons with any genetic linkage to Mama Black Dragon.

Predicitions of possible other followers of Tiamet that may be slaughtered:

Roy or Belkar: Blue Dragon Bounty Hunter
Belkar: The Urd Assistant (The question is what will he do with the poor clerk's head and wings to top making a bowl and salsa out of Yokyok)
Durkon: Minister Malack (The lying deceitful monster)
Potentially any member: The Empress of Blood
Belkar: Yukyuk, Yekyek, Yakyak, Yykyyk, Yskysk, Yzkyzk, Yckyck, Yhkyhk, Ywkywk, Yxkyxk, Ynkynk, Ykkykk, and perhaps even Y'ky'k

Swordpriest

2011-01-08, 03:48 PM

Nergal and Erishkagel may well occupy a slightly different position in the OotS pantheon than in the Sumerian pantheon. Just saying.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-08, 04:39 PM

Likewise, we know the Oracle is Tiamet's Oracle, and Tiamet is majorly into deception and manipulation. Also, the Oracle was wrong, he tried to twist Windstriker's never dying, Miko's suicidal actions, Roy's death at the Phlump's absence, and Vaarsuvius' never dying either as being Belkar's fault because his prophecy had failed... he beat the subject to the put to get Belkar to assist in his faux-suicide... Sorry, you guys that want to side with the lying Oracle of an Evil Dragon Queen Goddess of Deception and Manipulation, need to realize, if the Oracle planned to be killed, he wasn't killed, he commited suicide and had Belkar unwittingly assist him just so he could cause more trouble for good.. Planning on a Psychopath killing you and taking measures to prevent yourself being permanently dead doesn't sound like suicide to me. The reason he tried to twist the actions is because being killed hurts and he'd rather not go through it, even if it is inevitable.

I'm not siding with the oracle at all. I want the goodguys to win. I'm just trying to convince you to give credit where credit is due.

Unlike the nameless Oracle who is only alive because he is a plot device which is meant to be flawed, fallible, and yet to be right about anything on this trip... Haley was aided by a wolf in sheeps clothing, not a gift horse (Nale is not a Gift Horse, a gift horse is good, Nale is not) Not necessarily. It's a gift, that doesn't mean it's good.
V didn't recieve complete and total arcane power I believe that Rich elaborated on this and said that yes, V did obtain ultimate arcane power. Somebody with don't split the party can confirm that.
Durkon has not returned to his homeland (posthumously, posthumorously, or otherwise), So, because it hasn't happened yet makes it wrong?
Blackwing didn't need any Ginko Bilboa (and hasn't found any, so it doesn't matter) We don't know what the question is so we can't know whether the answer was valid or not. Considering every other prophecy so far has been, I'd say it was a valid answer.
... so... the only Prophecy we know he's gotton right since the Order formed was... Telling the Black Dragon, a fellow worshipper and servant of Tiamet, who killed her child? So he is only right when it directly helps himself, propogates evil, or another follow of Tiamet... Yes, he got that right as well. It's not the only one he got right.

The Rugi

2011-01-08, 05:42 PM

Call me True Neutral, but because of how likeable Belkar is, his death would just be all the more dramatic. I say bring on his death! It would be even more dramatic if he died immediately after some character development! Now there's a Player Punch if I ever saw one (or whatever's the webcomic equivalent of that).

The fact that Mr. Burlew can make a Chaotic Evil character such a likeable character and make this many people wish for him to continue living is amazing. Just as much as how he can make a Lawful Good character a feasible villain to be amazing.

MoonCat

2011-01-08, 05:53 PM

I'm just going to put my trust in Rich. Whatever he does, I'm sure he'll do it spectacularly and well. And if we never see Belkar again, he'd do it in a way we wouldn't miss him.

Like I said before, I'm just going to sit tight and hope he doesn't die.

B. Dandelion

2011-01-08, 06:22 PM

I think he's toast. Given that the Oracle had phrased Belkar's death in a different way the first time it came up, I don't think the theories about "drawing his last breath" being some kind of trick hold much water. I'm not sure what the Oracle could have done that would convince people he was being literal outside of reciting the entire Norwegian Blue sketch. He'll pass on. He'll kick the bucket. Bereft of life, he shall rest in peace. He'll join the choir invisible. He'll kick the bucket. He's a (soon-to-be) ex-Halfling!

Of course if he'd done that, then we'd be stuck debating whether that was a joke and shouldn't be taken seriously. There's no help for it -- if you want to think he'll live, I have faith in your creative abilities to come up with a way to get around what's been said.

Anyway regarding DStP:

Once V accepted the splices, he/she did have complete and total arcane power--insofar as he/she contained all three possible Soul Splices (and thus had a complete set), could use all of their spells at the same time (accessing the sum total of their magic), and had more total spell levels available than any other spellcaster (giving him/her the ultimate selection of arcane powers). Of course, more spells than anyone else does not necessarily mean every spell, and it certainly does not mean infinite power. Vaarsuvius may have assumed that it did--but then, this entire story is predicated on Vaarsuvius making careless assumptions.

Trazoi

2011-01-08, 06:32 PM

This thread shows why some people refuse to think Belkar will die - because for them he's so popular he's been elevated to godlike iconic meme status and become the central focus of the comic. :smallsmile:

For me if Belkar doesn't die, completely and not in a "becomes undead" or "becomes a deity" :smallyuk: way, then I'll lose a large chunk of respect for the comic's story. It will feel cheap, the Oracle won't make any sense, and the loss of respect I have in Roy for repeatedly bailing out the little demon will be amplified. Belkar is doomed, get used to it. :smalltongue:

Gandariel

2011-01-08, 08:12 PM

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-08, 08:16 PM

Belkar wasn't going to kill the Oracle, he had far more motive at that moment to not because of the mark and the needing the Oracle alive, but the Oracle knew he'd lied and knew he'd been called on his lie, so he twisted the truth more and more to goad Belkar into losing his temper and killing him. That is suicide, cut and dry. If the Oracle wasn't commiting suicide it would have had to have gone like this

Belkar: "You lied, I didn't get to kill Roy, V, Miko, her Horse, or you."
Oracle: "Yes, I'm a liar, I lied. Sorry, I do that alot."
Belkar: "Well since we're not in a town... DIE!!!"
Oracle: "Wow!!! Should have seen this one *gasp* coming... Oh wait... *gurgle* I did!"
Oracle dies, pointing out window... mark goes off... Priest arrives.
Priest: "Raise Dead!" (Note: he used raise dead, not ressurect)
Oracle and smiles.
Oracle: "I did say yes. I knew you would kill me on this day and time, so I planned ahaead." looks to Priest "I will need you again at 3:10pm on March 26, 1187. And have a resurrection spell ready. I'm going to be a mess. Big Druid is going to chew me to little pieces after I tell him his wife is cheating on him with his animal companion."

But that isn't what happened, because the Oracle knew Belkar would behave unless he committed suicide by making Belkar kill him.

And The Oracle only making valid predictions for a Black Dragon doesn't prove anything, as that only shows Tiamet's Oracle helps Tiamet's followers, and Heroes and their allies get lied to left and right.

And a Gift can be from someone evil, but the term gift horse implies the bearer is good. Sorry, your interpretation is like the Oracles. It is a form of retconning, it is twisting the facts to make whatever happened fit no matter how many 1 meter square pegs you have to cram through 2 inch round holes.

The Oracle lied, and lied, and lied, and lied.

If the Oracle's predictions are right, then there is another issue. He told Elan that his ending would be happy. And that is the ultimate proof.

Elan sees Belkar as a friend (and actually, in his own way, Belkar feels similarly about Elan), and the only way for Elan to have a Happy Ending is for all his friends to live, permanently and completely defeat Xykon, Nale, the Linear Guild, Redcloak, Team Evil, Tarquin and his friends, and the Snarl... followed by Slapstick and Banjo ascending to be the supreme deities, and Durkon as a Priest of Banjo performing the ceremony for Elan and Haley, with Roy as best man, Belkar as a groomsman in a little tux with no shoes, and V as the Maid of Honor, then recounting the entire tale for everyone as the reception (which obviously would be a Happy Ending for Elan, but wouldn't be so happy for everyone else, and technically would create and infinite loop as Elan's telling the story would end with him starting to retell the story, so he'd retell the story again, and again, and again... which is happy for a Bard like Elan).

So, with telling Elan his ending would be a happy ending, the Oracle contradicted the possibility for any prediction that would make Elan's ending unhappy, like one of his friends not being alive for his wedding.

Also, I fairly sure the Oracle told his Durkon that he WOULD be returning to Dwarven lands. Which means Durkon will die of some vile illness and then be taken back to Dwarven lands, thereby making the Preist of Odin's (A deity known for accurate prophecies and foresight) prophecy come true that Durkon will bring death and destruction upon his people when he next returns to them.

Oh, and while we're at it, my buddy pointed out another possibility: Last Breath could be the name of a weapon, like say... a magical dagger infused with positive energy. And if Belkar acquired it, then when he pulls it out... he is drawing it. But that would be silly, we'd never have an obscure item in the series that would only be mentioned once and then suddenly pop up again... nah, that would just be silly and make so much less sense then making the series serious and about death.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-08, 08:44 PM

Belkar wasn't going to kill the Oracle, he had far more motive at that moment to not because of the mark and the needing the Oracle alive, but the Oracle knew he'd lied and knew he'd been called on his lie, so he twisted the truth more and more to goad Belkar into losing his temper and killing him. That is suicide, cut and dry. Belkar had no reason to believe the mark was going to activate, even if the Oracle did commit suicide, Belkar is still the one who caused his death making the prophecy true.

And The Oracle only making valid predictions for a Black Dragon doesn't prove anything, as that only shows Tiamet's Oracle helps Tiamet's followers, and Heroes and their allies get lied to left and right. You have yet to prove the Oracle lied to the heroes.

And a Gift can be from someone evil, but the term gift horse implies the bearer is good. Sorry, your interpretation is like the Oracles. It is a form of retconning, it is twisting the facts to make whatever happened fit no matter how many 1 meter square pegs you have to cram through 2 inch round holes. Can you give me a link or something explaining this? Because that was never the impression I got from the saying.

The Oracle lied, and lied, and lied, and lied. Except you have yet to prove that.

If the Oracle's predictions are right, then there is another issue. He told Elan that his ending would be happy. And that is the ultimate proof.

Elan sees Belkar as a friend and the only way for Elan to have a Happy Ending is for all his friends to live, permanently and completely defeat Xykon, Nale, the Linear Guild, Redcloak, Team Evil, Tarquin and his friends, and the Snarl... followed by Slapstick and Banjo ascending to be the supreme deities, and Durkon as a Priest of Banjo performing the ceremony for Elan and Haley, with Roy as best man, Belkar as a groomsman in a little tux with no shoes, and V as the Maid of Honor, then recounting the entire tale for everyone as the reception (which obviously would be a Happy Ending for Elan, but wouldn't be so happy for everyone else, and technically would create and infinite loop as Elan's telling the story would end with him starting to retell the story, so he'd retell the story again, and again, and again... which is happy for a Bard like Elan).

So, with telling Elan his ending would be a happy ending, the Oracle contradicted the possibility for any prediction that would make Elan's ending unhappy, like one of his friends not being alive for his wedding.Okay, one, how do you know what is required for Elan to have a happy ending? Where has he ever stated that all of that has to happen for it to be a happy ending for him? Two, Durkon would have to be mind controlled before he worshipped a god besides Thor. Three, Elan already had his happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html):smalltongue: Yes, that's a joke, but as far as I can tell, it has more basis in the comic than your ending does. If you can find some evidence in comic that this ending absolutely has to happen for Elan to have a happy ending and you didn't just make it up, I'll concede that this ending is a possibility.

Also, I fairly sure the Oracle told his Durkon that he WOULD be returning to Dwarven lands. Which means Durkon will die of some vile illness and then be taken back to Dwarven lands, thereby making the Preist of Odin's (A deity known for accurate prophecies and foresight) prophecy come true that Durkon will bring death and destruction upon his people when he next returns to them. Which will make the Oracle's prophecy accurate.

Oh, and while we're at it, my buddy pointed out another possibility: Last Breath could be the name of a weapon, like say... a magical dagger infused with positive energy. And if Belkar acquired it, then when he pulls it out... he is drawing it. But that would be silly, we'd never have an obscure item in the series that would only be mentioned once and then suddenly pop up again... nah, that would just be silly and make so much less sense then making the series serious and about death. I'm fairly certain there are people better than me at explaining why that would be terrible for the story.

Honestly, answer Nimrod's Son's question. Would Belkar finding some convoluted way of dodging the prophecy, be better for the story than him dying? If so, how?

Dalek-K

2011-01-08, 08:56 PM

Trazoi

2011-01-08, 08:57 PM

So, with telling Elan his ending would be a happy ending, the Oracle contradicted the possibility for any prediction that would make Elan's ending unhappy, like one of his friends not being alive for his wedding.
:elan: : If Therkla isn't a bridesmaid, how can our wedding be happy?
:haley: : ...

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-09, 01:46 AM

People tend to think that no one would want to raise belkar back to life... One word..

Elan

And I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Scruffy is the link that Belkar could need to come see Elan (with the help of an Evil spellcaster) so that he can tell him to raise him :)
The Oracle said he'd draw his last breath EVER, so no, once he's dead he's not getting resurrected, whether anyone wants him to or not.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-09, 01:53 AM

Everyone keeps repeating about "last breath"...
The point is, the oracle hasn't said only that.
He also said other, more evident things
(I can't think of any on the top of my head, something about savoring his next birthday cake i think)
The point is, belkar will die.
Dead as the proverbial doornail

And btw every one of the oracle's prophecies have been true (haley's one, Belkar's one, the first one by roy about the location of Xykon, V's one.. do i have to continue?)

Actually, the reason is, only the Last Breath one was made as a Prophecy, the rest are snide off-hand comments: Should savor his next birthday cake and not invest in an IRA. Neither of which means death... 1) means he should enjoy cake while he can get it (maybe he won't get any more cake after his next birthday until the wedding of Elan and Haley), 2) means he shouldn't invest in and IRA (especially since any IRAs he might invest in will be ruined by the changing of governments when Elan's dad's buddies are all overthrown.

And being revisionist to try to make the Oracle right when he is so often wrong... or only makes accurate predictions for the most evil and villainous of beings, all with the intent of making evil triumph over good... or says something that is just a cruel remark to sound like he is predicting when he isn't... that is as dumb as believing other omens of death...

I know, why don't we say everyone who Blackwing has looked at is going to die... because Raven's looking at you, entering your home, sitting on your roof, or sitting on your fence were all omens of death, and they have a 100% track record, because every person that believed in those omens is dead now.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-09, 02:34 AM

Honestly, answer Nimrod's Son's question. Would Belkar finding some convoluted way of dodging the prophecy, be better for the story than him dying? If so, how?

Of course... Because the prophecy is garbage and as Nimrod's Son puts it, it is permanent, so if it is proved right, the that is the end... the end of Belkar, the end of the series, and starts a paradox...

Elan cried over an enemy's death, and freaked out about V killing someone who was blatantly evil. Elan believes in epic and totally storybook endings... for him to have a Happy ending... ALL HIS FREINDS LIVE, not just one or two... Elan is over the top and as Roy pointed out to him, he can't just wait for the Happy Ending to come... so now he is making it happen... For him to make it happen, BELKAR LIVES.

And no, I did prove it... The Oracle tried to get revisionist by saying the deaths of Roy, Vaarsuvius, Miko, and Windstriker were all Belkar's doing. So, LIE, LIE, LIE, and LIE... especially since V and Windstriker never died, and Roy and Miko's death were not Belkar's doing either... And as I said, since the Oracle forced the point, he intentionally killed himself to fufill his prophecy... So NO, Belkar did not kill the Oracle, the Oracle killed himself... if the Oracle killed himself, that means the Oracle's prophecy was wrong.

Here is one, I will make a prediction... Nimrod's Son will repeatedly say Belkar can't be resurrected, because of the word Ever...

I now point out, I predicted it, and look, I was right... Just like the Oracle predicted the answer to Haley's question by reading the TPB to a question he couldn't understand... So no, the Oracle has never predicted once now, he only reads the TPBs, makes up some BS, and pretends he knows what is going to happen.

I personally now declare of have the Cassandra Syndrome... that means despite me being always right, everyone contradicts me and thinks I'm wrong and questions me... so now... the only way to prove be wrong is to admit I'm right, but if you admit I'm right, then you admit you were only arguing with me because of the Cassandra Syndrome, which means I've been right and you were wrong... but if you continue to argue with me you prove me right by arguing with me, proving I have the Cassandra Syndrome, which means I'm right and you're wrong... This is what the Oracle is doing... If he is wrong, he lies and makes his former lies seem to have predicted the future but the prediction was misunderstood by the questioner, if he turns our to have been right then he just says, "See, I predicted it" either way he can keep charging for false predictions.

The Oracle even went so far as to mention that it is In Story Year, why... because then he can assume, with Belkar's personality and brash attitude, someone will kill him sooner then later... and since we'd only just seen the In Game New Year at the Azure City shortly before, the In Game story time until the next year is immense, with only the period of Roy's death to help us know any real amount of time had passed... Incidentally this is a blatant parody of how Real Life Fortune Tellers and supposed Psychics tend to predict something... making predictions so generic that they can be proven right even when wrong.

I see that Nimrod's Son is related to someone... their name... it Starts with an N... a parent I think... with a male offspring... and that male offspring has... read the Order of the Stick... and not only that, the offspring has posted on this forum and in this thread...

Neither of you has answered, why would the Oracle waste his time with Roy's Ghost unless it was for some plan of evil? Why even ask Roy to leave, if he obviously already knew he'd need to dismiss Roy? Because like all precogs, he doesn't see the future... he sees the most likely potential futures and relates the one he feels will be most likely...

Why would Belkar overcoming the prophecy be better then him dying? Because 1) He already did... Belkar that was died in the cellar, the New Belkar lives and is a better Belkar then the one that came before... 2) Overcoming prophecies and proving them wrong or misunderstood is a classic plot point... the stupid prophecy killing off a main character isn't... 3) Because Belkar's death will bring nothing new to the story... once he dies he will be seperated from the Order forever, so there is no point in his death, it would lower him to a throw away character status, which would diminish the value of the rest of the Order members... 4) Belkar still hasn't in any way fufilled the Vaarsuvius portion of the Oracle's first prophesy for him, so until Belkar in some way causes V's death, or the Oracle can twist something stupid like "You weren't there to take the killing curse for Vaarsuvius, so you caused his death", then the first prophecy has not been fufilled, which means once more the Oracle lied, and therefore is wrong then, so why should he be right on this one. 5) The Oracle being outed as a con man and all his predictions being debunked makes for a far better story then the Order ending just so Belkar can die.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-09, 02:45 AM

[quote]Elan cried over an enemy's death, and freaked out about V killing someone who was blatantly evil. I'm just going to bring up some things about this because there's no point in arguing with somebody who believes themselves incapable of being wrong.
1. There was no reason for Therkla to die (except of course, for story reasons) Elan cried because she could have been a good guy and was being a friend to him. I'd probably cry over the death of a friend too, even if they were flawed.
2. Please re-read the comic where Elan freaks out about Kubota. He didn't freak out because V killed an evil person, he freaked out because of the reason V did so. Here are V's reasons.
V executed Kubota just because Elan happened to have him tied up. He specifically admits this in that comic.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html
Kubota had an evil looking mustache.
Elan often prefers to capture villains to killing them.

This would be an evil act in the D&D alignment system. V knew nothing else about the situation.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-09, 02:51 AM

[ramblings]

Oh, where to begin...?

...

Nah, you know what? Life's too short.

(Eh, Belkar?)

Deatheater

2011-01-09, 03:16 AM

Try saying that while Belkar force feeds you your own liver. He's killed dozens (hundreds?) of innocents for the stupidest reasons, and would have done much worse if not for roy. About him lacking power, that's only because the rest of the oots is as much powerful as him. "The psyco who wanders around spreading death" may be a perfectly legitimate bbeg for a 6-9 level party.

Like most sociopaths Belkar has taken advantage of the fact most people/social structures have a hard time grokking they are dealing with a sociopath and therefore the usual tactics --appeals to reason, sympathy, disapproval, revoking of privileges, etc-will not work. The only thing that works is greater force. Its not that non adventuring people can't deal with him--they just don't understand what they're dealing with until its too late. But all sociopaths become their own worst enemy eventually. Remember WHY Belkar signed on with Roy in the first place...

As for power, yeah in the short term a Belkar menace will terrorize the locals, killing, mayhem etc--but with no long term plans or ability to make allies, his arse will be hanging in the breeze when news reaches the ears of the King/Queen, Baron, whomever the poobah is who will have to step in and do something. And even if for some reason Belkar berserk can take out an army, sooner or later someone will hire a sniper--too much in the way or crops/trade/etc is at stake...

Belkar is a menace, but he's strictly little league.

term1nally s1ck

2011-01-09, 03:28 AM

He may die. And he may be ressed as Roy was. Meh.

Strife Warzeal

2011-01-09, 06:14 AM

Why would Belkar overcoming the prophecy be better then him dying? Because 1) He already did... Belkar that was died in the cellar, the New Belkar lives and is a better Belkar then the one that came before... 2) Overcoming prophecies and proving them wrong or misunderstood is a classic plot point... the stupid prophecy killing off a main character isn't... 3) Because Belkar's death will bring nothing new to the story... once he dies he will be seperated from the Order forever, so there is no point in his death, it would lower him to a throw away character status, which would diminish the value of the rest of the Order members... 4) Belkar still hasn't in any way fufilled the Vaarsuvius portion of the Oracle's first prophesy for him, so until Belkar in some way causes V's death, or the Oracle can twist something stupid like "You weren't there to take the killing curse for Vaarsuvius, so you caused his death", then the first prophecy has not been fufilled, which means once more the Oracle lied, and therefore is wrong then, so why should he be right on this one. 5) The Oracle being outed as a con man and all his predictions being debunked makes for a far better story then the Order ending just so Belkar can die.

1) What are you even saying about him already dieing?

2) In plenty of stories Main Characters die off permanently. Also this comic has plenty of times subverted tropes.

3) He wouldn't be a throw away character. And who says it wouldn't add anything new to the story. Let's say he dies a noble and heroic death. That
would add a new facet to his personality.

4) The prophecy answered the question Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) "Yes."
The question specifically meant does he cause the death of any of the 5 people listed, yes he does. He kills the oracle fulfilling the prophecy. Next!

5) That is opinion, and you have yet to prove his prophecies are false.

Thank you and have a good day.

He may die. And he may be ressed as Roy was. Meh.
The "Ever" part means when he dies he will not be resurrected to the material plane (which requires you to draw breath upon or you will die).

Koshiro

2011-01-09, 08:32 AM

elkar: Yukyuk, Yekyek, Yakyak, Yykyyk, Yskysk, Yzkyzk, Yckyck, Yhkyhk, Ywkywk, Yxkyxk, Ynkynk, Ykkykk, and perhaps even Y'ky'k
:smallbiggrin: Priceless!

In any case: The prophecy is pretty much iron-clad. The only hope is that the prophecy will turn out to be incorrect - and that is what I hope more than anything, because as I said I really, really hate "inevitable fate" stuff. Heck, I wouldn't even mind Belkar dying - provided it's done in a classy, non-preachy sort of way - if it wasn't for the prophecy.

Kish

2011-01-09, 09:20 AM

People tend to think that no one would want to raise belkar back to life... One word..

Elan
...who wanted to leave Belkar in Shojo's prison, remember?

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-09, 05:19 PM

1) What are you even saying about him already dieing?

Old Belkar Dies (Draws his last breath ever)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0605.html

New Belkar Awakens (Draws his first breath ever)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html

Notice, he doesn't draw a signal breath for 5 comics... and he has a soul to soul afterlife communion with Lord Shojo... that is pretty dead.

2) In plenty of stories Main Characters die off permanently. Also this comic has plenty of times subverted tropes.

You mean like Spiderman? Oh wait, he came back... Superman then... oh no, back... Batman? Nope he's back... Jason Todd the 2nd Robin... nope him too... Bucky... wait, yeah he's alive too... Charles Xavier? Hulk? Aquaman? Wonder Woman? Donna Troy? Green Arrow? Hal Jordan? Phoenix? Cyclops? Wolverine? May Parker? Superboy? Barry Allen? Bart Allen? Steve "Captain America" Rogers? Mr. Immortal (okay, that one is just cheap, but still)? Nope, all of them are back to life... Heck, even DEADMAN is alive again... the guy has dead in his freakin codename, he has been deceased since his origin and even he has been brought back to life. Even Aunt May Parker has been brought back to life a few times. And Evil characters, especially Evil ones that do good come back to life: Doctor Doom, Magneto, Lex Luthor, etc.

And it isn't a trope, it is called a basis for maintaining a story. Kill off your main characters and your story sucks... A Comic series tried it once, killed off most of the main characters, replaced them... Doom Patrol sucked after that... so they resurrected the originals.

3) He wouldn't be a throw away character. And who says it wouldn't add anything new to the story. Let's say he dies a noble and heroic death. That would add a new facet to his personality.

It only adds a new facet if he lives, if he dies then he was developed and then turned into a throw away character... the difference... a throw away character goes away, a developed character is kept around and/or at least returns frequently... Eugene despite being deceased has a avenue to return frequently (as long as Roy is alive), Belkar doesn't and wouldn't go to the same place as even Eugene, so if he dies, he has been discarded, eliminated, thrown away, and that means he and the rest of the Order have been diminished in their value. We might as well be reading about Tarquin's Paladin Daughter named Lane, her Kobold Barbarian Buddy named Yukyuk (he has a rank in Ranger, enemy specialty halflings), The Frost Giant Priest of Ymir named Seamus O'Chillibottom, Lane's Monk Boyfriend Kahmet Hineykicker who is their leader, A Ninja with no name who seems quiet and always follows orders, and Pompeii has joined them after his previous time as a member of the Linear Guild, the go by the Nonsequitor Squad... isn't that wonderful.

4) The prophecy answered the question Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) "Yes."
The question specifically meant does he cause the death of any of the 5 people listed, yes he does. He kills the oracle fulfilling the prophecy. Next!

Nope, because the Oracle claimed it was fufilled before he died.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html
He doesn't stab the oracle until the last 3 panels, and during which the Oracle admits to lying. But in Panel 5 he said that the Prophecy came true. He admits to lying, he admits all he had were theories... not Next. The Prophecy was forced by the Oracle by the Oracle lying. Stop trying to hand wave the Oracle's lies... he lied, he admitted it. That is the end of story, his prediction failed, so to try and preserve his supposed spotless records (which is probably not spotless, but most people accepted his BS hand waves and revisionist history, especially with the memory charm, that until now, no one called him on his bluff. Actually, I believe that is just it... Oracle critical failed his bluff check, then failed his saving throw... Belkar stabbed him in the love handle... that isn't fatal...) by forcing his own death since he'd already called for Cleric to rez him (BTW, if you call 911, put a loaded gun into a child's hand, and stand in front of the barrel, it is still suicide, the child didn't kill you when you shout and scare them into jerking and pulling the trigger... that is essentially what the Oracle did... so no matter how you look at it... Belkar didn't kill him.) And since you attest to the Oracle's word so much, in Panel 9 of the comic he points out the technicality of caused death over killed, so in that vain, I point out that that the Intent of Belkar's question was not one of them, but all of them, so until Belkar permanent kills by his own hand and intent knowingly and willfully Roy, V, Miko, Miko's Horse, and the Oracle, that the prophecy has not been fufilled, so again... the prophecy was false, and just more proof of the Oracle's lies and ineptness when it comes to prophecies relating to Belkar... and actually Belkar didn't kill the Oracle, the Oracle's bad dice rolling killed him (If you are going to use the Oracle's BS as proof, you need to make sure that all his BS works, because once one little thread can be pulled on to show his predictions and statments are decietful and revisionist, then all his woven lies can be unravelled).

5) That is opinion, and you have yet to prove his prophecies are false.

Xykon wasn't in his throne room, he was in a panel of a webcomic.
Vaarsuvius only said 3 words.
Ginko Bilboa did nothing.
Belkar is 0/5 killed
Haley went with a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, not a Gift Horse. (Going on a Date with Nale is not a gift to Haley, nearly getting killed by Nale or sacrificed by Nale and Sabine is not a Gift... there was never a Gift Horse, so the Prophecy was more BS)
Durkon has not returned to his homeland Posthumously.
Xykon is not the Real Name of the Sorcorer who killed Fyron Pucebuckle (Eugene's Master), so the Oracle lied to him to (and thereby lied to us... we still don't know Xykon's real name)
He knew the intent of Roy's convoluted question and could have given the honest answer, but chose to do what he did just so Roy could figure it out, and then forget it, just to spite the good guys.

And if you want to argue, I'm just fighting his technicallities, rules lawyering, lies, and revisionist history with technicallities and rules lawyering (I don't need revisionism and lies, I can do it honestly if annoyingly... I used to DM/GM and know how Prophecies work... either you can railroad your players into making them happen, twist what the characters did to make the prophecies fit, or simply say the players changed the future by their actions and altering the out come)

Thank you and have a good day.

The "Ever" part means when he dies he will not be resurrected to the material plane (which requires you to draw breath upon or you will die).

I think I actually remember a potion called last breath... once you drink it you never have to breath again... it is risky though, since it is somewhat evil tainted, and will cause you to show up as evil on detect evil and detect alignment rolls. Also, you'd needsomething with the blood of a Kobold, a Chimera, a Paladin, a Ogre, a Hobgoblin, and something else on it... you have to have the item dipped into the potion to complete it being made and it may destroy the item in the process of making the potion... man, that would be one heck of a sidequest to get something will all that stuff's blood on it.

Trazoi

2011-01-09, 05:55 PM

Xykon wasn't in his throne room, he was in a panel of a webcomic.
I like this reasoning. :smallbiggrin:

The main problem with Belkar surviving is that it makes the whole Oracle prophecy pointless. What's the benefit to the story to give a dire apparently iron-clad foretelling that a main character will be dead and gone for good only to go "Psyche! He's really going to be all okay!". It wouldn't work as a "Screw Destiny!" plotline because Belkar himself doesn't know about it - Roy and now Haley do and they're fine with letting fate run its course. If Belkar is to worm out his fate it's going to appear like a cop-out.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-09, 06:34 PM

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-09, 06:37 PM

I like this reasoning. :smallbiggrin:

The main problem with Belkar surviving is that it makes the whole Oracle prophecy pointless. What's the benefit to the story to give a dire apparently iron-clad foretelling that a main character will be dead and gone for good only to go "Psyche! He's really going to be all okay!". It wouldn't work as a "Screw Destiny!" plotline because Belkar himself doesn't know about it - Roy and now Haley do and they're fine with letting fate run its course. If Belkar is to worm out his fate it's going to appear like a cop-out.

Not all plot ideas can be winners... I think this was more of a suspense thing, where we're always left guessing as to the who/what/when/where/why/how of Belkar's death... The Mark would do it... oh it will be Haley... oh wait, it will be Belkar vs Roy's Bone Golem Body... wait it will be Darth V's wrath... Oh, I know, it will be in the Barroom brawl... no maybe the Dragon Queen in the throne room... perhaps in the arena at the Bounty Hunter's claws/breath... oh it will be Live Roy when he loses his temper... Haley's uncle does him in... Haley will tell him to drop dead under the effects of the Potion of Glibness...

We're supposed to keep guessing and the Gotcha will be when they next meet the Oracle who will be revisionist and claim his prophecy was fufilled when Belkar died, was decursed, and chose to evolve instead.

And Nimrod's Son... Marion Crane is the wrong Genre... we're not talking Slasher/Horror/Thriller here... this is Comedy/Action/Adventure/Scifi/Comic Book.

DC said they'd never bring Jason Todd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Todd) back after he was voted to death, but that didn't stick.

Marvel said the same thing for James Buchanan "Bucky" Barnes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucky_Barnes), but he too has recently been restored.

And neither of these were temporary resurrections for some plot twist.

Main Character Death is never permanent... and for good reason. If you ever kill off a main character before the end of the series, or relatively close to the end, then you end up ending your series prematurely, forcing it to end without an end. This all leads to a Dead end, which is really a bad way to end a series that is the living end.

Gandariel

2011-01-09, 06:47 PM

Xykon wasn't in his throne room, he was in a panel of a webcomic.

Are you really saying this?

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-09, 06:50 PM

Are you really saying this?

No... I really am not... but that is as valid if not more valid a technicality then most of the Oracle's predictions (including that one, which was just him being a jerk in the first place).

Koshiro

2011-01-09, 06:52 PM

It wouldn't work as a "Screw Destiny!" plotline because Belkar himself doesn't know about it
I fail to see how that is a requirement. But as I said, my main beef is with the whole "unescapable fate" set-up.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-09, 06:53 PM

And Nimrod's Son... Marion Crane is the wrong Genre... we're not talking Slasher/Horror/Thriller here... this is Comedy/Action/Adventure/Scifi/Comic Book.
Ha!

Yeah, Rich is just the type to nix a great story possibility for the sake of keeping genres in neat little boxes. Right you are.

Trazoi

2011-01-09, 06:58 PM

We're supposed to keep guessing and the Gotcha will be when they next meet the Oracle who will be revisionist and claim his prophecy was fufilled when Belkar died, was decursed, and chose to evolve instead.
And I'll be saying "Weeeeeeeeeeeak". :smalltongue:

The impression I got from the Oracle was that he was tempering his revenge because he knew what lay in store for Belkar and it wasn't pretty. I don't think "Belkar has a change of heart" fits the bill. Especially when Belkar himself is faking said change of heart.

Edit:

I fail to see how that is a requirement. But as I said, my main beef is with the whole "unescapable fate" set-up.
Clarification: IMO it doesn't work well as a "Screw Destiny" plot if Belkar isn't actively trying to avoid his destiny himself - which he can't because he doesn't know it. It could work if Belkar unknowingly avoiding his fate shows someone else that they can avoid theirs, but the other fates aren't ones that people wish to avoid (Durkon is happy with arriving home posthumously, Elan obviously wants a happy ending).

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-09, 07:03 PM

And I'll be saying "Weeeeeeeeeeeak". :smalltongue:
Funny, that's kinda been my entire inner monologue during every slog through each of Shoelessgdowar's mammoth posts in this thread. :smallwink:

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-09, 07:14 PM

And I'll be saying "Weeeeeeeeeeeak". :smalltongue:

The impression I got from the Oracle was that he was tempering his revenge because he knew what lay in store for Belkar and it wasn't pretty. I don't think "Belkar has a change of heart" fits the bill. Especially when Belkar himself is faking said change of heart.

How long can someone fake something before they actually start to on some level actually believe and feel at least partially that way?
His change of heart is his attempt to "Play the Game" and he was told by a being superior to the Oracle that as long as he appears to play the game, he'll be allowed to keep playing.

And I have yet to hear one way that Belkar's death would be even a good story, let alone a great one. The best excuse is "Because it will make the Oracle right"... The Oracle doesn't need to be, and has been shown to have never been very right in the first place.

Here, I will make a prediction that will be just as good as the Oracles, nay it shall be way better, because mine will be almost 100% guaranteed

Each of you will die, in a month with at least 14 days in it, with a name consisting of at least 1 vowel and maybe a consonant or 2, at roughly 1am somewhere on the planet give or take an hour. Ooo, I have predicted everyone of your deaths... I'm awesome... I must be the Oracle of Banjo (Traditional), because my prediction is right.

Making the Oracle wrong again and having Belkar be able to go on a rampage, maiming the Oracle (who never saw it coming) and slaughtering many Kobolds in the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling. At which time Belkar will walk back, cut off the Oracles Testicles, plop them in a Kobold Head Icecream Cone and have them like icecream, licking them. Then as the Order leaves the Oracle's, now with the real location of Girard's Gate, Belkar will admit to only doing the ice cream thing to mess with Roy again, only when they pass through the Memory Charm Boundries they'll all forget what the cone and 'ice cream' really are, and Belkar will actually eat it.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-09, 07:15 PM

Funny, that's kinda been my entire inner monologue during every slog through each of Shoelessgdowar's mammoth posts in this thread. :smallwink:

I predict this post will be shorter then most of my others!!!

Wow!!! I was right again!!!

Trazoi

2011-01-09, 07:49 PM

Funny, that's kinda been my entire inner monologue during every slog through each of Shoelessgdowar's mammoth posts in this thread. :smallwink:
You have to admit it does illustrate the lengths you can go in theorising why Belkar will live. :smallsmile:

And I have yet to hear one way that Belkar's death would be even a good story, let alone a great one.
Well, we don't know exactly how Belkar will die. But it's bound to be dramatic! It's the death of a main character. Whether it is to show how deadly powerful something is or as a reaction to the party falling apart, it's going to have a lot of punch.

Making the Oracle wrong again and having Belkar be able to go on a rampage, maiming the Oracle (who never saw it coming) and slaughtering many Kobolds... (rest of bloody rampage quote snipped)
...and losing me as a reader for good. Seriously, you were arguing that Belkar was genuinely reformed only a few paragraphs ago. :smallannoyed:

The only reason I tolerate Belkar is the combination of the death knell of the prophecy combined with his character development into sensible Chaotic Evil instead of mindless stupid violence. He has used up all his chances, and as his keeper Roy has too. Any innocent Belkar slaughters from this point on is Roy's responsibility and he should know that now. The instant Belkar steps out of line and reverts to being a bigger liability than a boon for the Order is the moment Roy has to take action or forfeit all respect as a leader. And might as well bump him to True Neutral as well. Belkar might be good for spawning jokes, but there's a story at stake too.

martianmister

2011-01-09, 08:02 PM

Making the Oracle wrong again and having Belkar be able to go on a rampage, maiming the Oracle (who never saw it coming) and slaughtering many Kobolds in the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling. At which time Belkar will walk back, cut off the Oracles Testicles, plop them in a Kobold Head Icecream Cone and have them like icecream, licking them. Then as the Order leaves the Oracle's, now with the real location of Girard's Gate, Belkar will admit to only doing the ice cream thing to mess with Roy again, only when they pass through the Memory Charm Boundries they'll all forget what the cone and 'ice cream' really are, and Belkar will actually eat it.

This is...so wrong...and disgusting to be funny...

Gandariel

2011-01-09, 08:21 PM

Making the oracle wrong... again? And where exactly did he make any mistake?

Let's take a look at all his predictions..
-where is Xykon? in his trone room (bastard, but true)
-where is goddamn xykon? near Redmountain hills (true)
-Durkon&Elan&Roy's : we can't say, because they've not realized yet
-haley's one: true (and don't try to argue about horses and sheeps, it's ridiculous)
-Vaarsuvius: i'm not sure
she did say 4 words (and check the title of the comic), but maybe not, i agree this is not completely sure(but maybe something else has to happen?)
-belkar's one: this is tough
actually i used to think the explainations the Oracle was giving about roy, miko, windstriker and V were at some point true (and maybe some of them DO count as making the prophecy true), BUT
read the last words of the Oracle...
and most importantly:
he DID faresee his death (since he "booked" the resurrectors), and so he DID know that ,elkar would have killed him, which anyway counts as fulfilling the prophecy

So, excepted for the (arguable) case of V i don't see any of the predictions to be false

Qwertystop

2011-01-09, 08:28 PM

Here is a reason that solves all the problems as far as I can find. (NOTE: This is absolutely a joke)

Belkar becomes an Ethereal Zombie (or other undead)!!!

1: Zombies can't eat cake
2: Ethereal plane, not this world
3: Zombies don't breathe

Gandariel

2011-01-09, 08:47 PM

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-09, 09:23 PM

And I have yet to hear one way that Belkar's death would be even a good story, let alone a great one.
As I've stated numerous times, and you have repeatedly ignored save for a cursory "well, that can't happen because Belkar HAS to live for the comic to survive", the possibility is still there for Belkar to continue to be shown in the afterlife.

Now I'm not much of one for speculation, and I'm by no means vouching for the likelihood of any of this... but just off the top of my head, the idea that Belkar goes to the lower planes and (perhaps compelled by his concern for Mr Scruffy) gets involved with fighting against the IFCC (and maybe even going so far as to contribute in some minor way to the death of V, harking back to what the Oracle was about to say before he was so rudely interrupted) would make for a much better storyline than Belkar staying alive and continuing to stab things whilst pretending to be good. And that's but one possibility.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-10, 12:28 AM

As I've stated numerous times, and you have repeatedly ignored save for a cursory "well, that can't happen because Belkar HAS to live for the comic to survive", the possibility is still there for Belkar to continue to be shown in the afterlife.

Now I'm not much of one for speculation, and I'm by no means vouching for the likelihood of any of this... but just off the top of my head, the idea that Belkar goes to the lower planes and (perhaps compelled by his concern for Mr Scruffy) gets involved with fighting against the IFCC (and maybe even going so far as to contribute in some minor way to the death of V, harking back to what the Oracle was about to say before he was so rudely interrupted) would make for a much better storyline than Belkar staying alive and continuing to stab things whilst pretending to be good. And that's but one possibility.

Can't happen... Belkar Chaotic Evil... IFCC is Lawful Evil... Belkar will never be remotely in the same section of Evil Afterlife as them. You are so in a rush to make the Oracle right and kill of Belkar that you ignore anything that doesn't fit your niche, while I keep adapting and adding more... spammy it may be, but that is because I'm not bent on making a nameless reoccuring joke triumph over the Order.

Gandariel, having contingency plans does not an accurate oracle make. And as I said, he had to push Belkar's buttons to get it to work. He had a choice, he chose to die instead of admitting that Belkar wasn't going to kill any of the above. Had he told Belkar, "I said yes, since you're going to stab me in a few minutes because you're a chaotic evil halfling idiot. Sure you didn't kill any of the others, but you did list me last you poor, sad, pathetic, lonely, unclean, short, annoying, ugly, disgustingly hairy, mouth breathing, ape person, and so I said yes." then he would have been being honest, but he was still slightly trying to avoid his own death by lying more. He could have been honest and won by still getting killed by Belkar, or better yet, been honest, eliminated all these arguments which he should have foreseen as well (didn't think of that one, did you. The Oracle breaks the 4th wall, his own fault for failing to predict this. He has been called a liar, and has failed to defend himself. He is a liar.) and said he guesses on which futures are most likely, and it won't matter if Belkar does or doesn't kill him as he has a priest on the way anyway as a contingency (If it was predicted, he would have warned the others about the mess, but he didn't, which means he makes up stuff to cover for his ineptness, not that we didn't already know that from his BS excuses to Belkar instead of being honest). Then Belkar could have potentially not seen any reason to stab him, thereby abating the prophesy.

But the Oracle wanted the prophecy to be true as it bolsters his reputation. If you make sure all disatisfied customers forget you wrong predictions (the real reason for the memory wipe spell), then you can be wrong most of the time and just make yourself seem accurate.

Tazoi, who said the Oracle and the Kobold population of the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling were innocent? In fact... how many innocents can you name that Belkar has actually killed since joining the Order? I think the count is 0. Belkar may be a royal sadist, but he has only killed those that deserved it, and in many cases he just poked a dead body just to release some tensions. Sure he has made threats and people have thought the worst of him, but he has not killed any innocents in 767 strips. Durkon has potentially killed more innocents in the past 767 strips then Belkar.

If we were arguing Thog's record, granted, he has unwittingly aided in mass murder, but Belkar has despite his alignment and general disposition before getting the Greater Mark of Justice actually never done any true acts of evil (Chaos yes, evil no), and whether it is a facade or not, he's been even better since the removal of the Greater Mark of Justice. He is a ranger, and I'd deduce from his tendencies that his Species/Prefered Enemy is Humanoid-Reptilian (which would include Kobolds, Urds, Troglodytes, and Lizardfolk), so his thing with Kobolds may just be a class thing anyway (He probably has a 2nd Favored/Species Enemy, most likely Humanoid-Goblinoid, from his performance in the battle for Azure City, not sure if he'd have a 3rd, since I'm pretty sure he isn't a 10th Level in Ranger, but then since he only has 1 level in Barbarian, there is some liklihood he is close to level 10 as a Ranger), and while in our world such stereotypes are wrong, in OotS's world, hating and picking on a specific type of opponent (Trees and Goblinoids for Durkon... Reptialians and Goblinoids for Belkar, Jerks for Roy, Fools for V, Genre Inept for Elan) is perfectly fine and accepted.

Koshiro

2011-01-10, 05:04 AM

Clarification: IMO it doesn't work well as a "Screw Destiny" plot if Belkar isn't actively trying to avoid his destiny himself - which he can't because he doesn't know it. It could work if Belkar unknowingly avoiding his fate shows someone else that they can avoid theirs, but the other fates aren't ones that people wish to avoid (Durkon is happy with arriving home posthumously, Elan obviously wants a happy ending).
It would also show that 'good' prophecies are not sure to come true either. And that would beneficial, story-wise.
It would of course have to be introduced with some explanation, possibly involving the Snarl, as to why the Oracle's predictions are no longer reliable. Why the rules of the game have changed. I would consider that to be a good thing. No more 'you can't fight fate'.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-10, 05:25 AM

It would also show that 'good' prophecies are not sure to come true either. And that would beneficial, story-wise.
It would of course have to be introduced with some explanation, possibly involving the Snarl, as to why the Oracle's predictions are no longer reliable. Why the rules of the game have changed. I would consider that to be a good thing. No more 'you can't fight fate'.

I don't think there has been a "You can't fight fate" rule as of yet. There's assumed to be one, but I don't recall there being a prophecy that the asker didn't want granted. So, unless I'm just not recalling something, there's no way to know that there isn't a "You can't fight fate" rule as it hasn't been tested yet.

I like your version better than most of the other theories I've heard for Belkar living. Oddly, I don't recall anybody bringing up the Snarl changing things yet. There would have to be a good reason for the way it worked of course, but that could be doable.

I still don't want Belkar to live, but that subverting of the prophecy would go over much better with me than anything else I've heard.

Trazoi

2011-01-10, 05:34 AM

Mystic Muse

2011-01-10, 05:46 AM

My issue with that is that isn't enough of an important story driving reason to break the infallibility of the prophecies in that way.

Still better than most other theories I've heard.

Trazoi

2011-01-10, 05:51 AM

Still better than most other theories I've heard.
True. Most theories are about ways the about Belkar can be remade as an undead or a non-cake eating construct rather than ones about negating the concept of prophecies altogether. :smallsmile:

Koshiro

2011-01-10, 06:01 AM

I don't think there has been a "You can't fight fate" rule as of yet. There's assumed to be one, but I don't recall there being a prophecy that the asker didn't want granted. So, unless I'm just not recalling something, there's no way to know that there isn't a "You can't fight fate" rule as it hasn't been tested yet.
Actually, I am fairly sure that the Oracle did not want to be brutally killed by Belkar's dulled dagger, level loss and all. :smallwink:
Note that even the Oracle, probably against his own better judgment, made a feeble attempt to escape his fate but couldn't. Or maybe he just went with the social convention of trying to talk his way out of it, even though he knew it was futile.
Furthermore, he's probably not looking forward to being ripped into tiny shreds by an angry druid, but nevertheless has accepted the inevitable - even though it appears to be quite evitable from a common sense viewpoint. The routine manner in which he and the priests discussed this future event suggests that this is nothing new or out of the ordinary either.
This particular prophecy about his own fate* also reveals two other interesting bits of information: For one, that the oracle's prophecies are vague and mostly useless due to his choice of words, not due to any inherent inaccuracy. The visions of his own gruesome death were extremely precise and concrete.
The second interesting glance into the future is that the world is still going to exist in March 1187, which is about two years(?) from the current comic time. So apparently the Snarl does not destroy the world in the next two years - unless of course, the Snarl changes the rules, as I proposed.

*I should note that looking into the future to gain information about your death, accept that you cannot avoid it, but then take precautions to get you resurrected does not make any sense. I can generalize that: If it is possible to get a 100% accurate glance at the future, then it is also useless.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-10, 06:05 AM

Actually, I am fairly sure that the Oracle did not want to be brutally killed by Belkar's dulled dagger, level loss and all.

......good point.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-10, 07:12 AM

......good point.

Proof he is fallible. If he didn't want to die at the end of Belkar's knives he just had to say, "I lied, I was wrong, but this is now the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling, and if you stab me you will activate the Greater Mark of Judgement. You will then feel an extreme headache, vomit alot, make a big mess, Haley will kick you from the Order but promptly forget once you leave the valley, and it won't matter because I have priests just waiting to pop in here and raise dead on me anyway."

Belkar would have never stabbed him, but that is just it, the Oracle doesn't care about his well being, he is not a leveled character so he had no level loss (This is pointed out by him using magical items and not having priest ranks, he is just blessed with prophecy from Tiamet), and he just wanted to abuse and cause trouble for the Order by denying Haley and Celia their chances to ask for predictions (despite them passing the 3 tests).

And remember, Tiamet is more then just a 2 faced dragon goddess (she is at least 5 faced incidentally, which makes her really decietful and deceptive), so lies and deception and false-truth are all part of what she is about (along with revenge, the advancement of evil, dragon and kobold betterment, and making fools of heroes and their allies).

Roy pointed out to Elan that you have to make your prophecy come true, that means that the prophecies aren't set in stone, but based on the characters' actions. The Oracle not only wanted, but needed Belkar to assist him in his suicide to keep up the deception of being right (And I still say the stab wound was not one where it would have been lethal, so the Oracle's death and Belkar stabbing him were coincide... no wait... that's it... Belkar usually could have stabbed the Oracle and hurt him with no effects, a single would would be bad, but the Oracle would need to reach -10 hp to die... that means that something had seriously hurt the Oracle before the arrived, Belkar just assisted someone else in getting the kill. The Oracle was using some trick to stay on his feet and was taking advantage that talking is a free action... 1 stab could not have taken all the Oracle's remaining HP unless he was close to or already in the negatives) and instead of accepting failure and that his Goddess can't let him be all-seeing, he forced his own death to cover his and her mutual failure.

And while Koshiro tries to say his visions are accurate and concrete I point out, he didn't warn about the mess caused by Belkar (probably because the mess was overlooked by Haley, Belkar, and Celia, and was actually there before they arrived, argued, and Belkar did his stab), and the key point. The Oracle chooses to die rather then change his visions.

Big Druid: "Is my wife cheating on me? And who? Cause if you don't answer both questions I will do something violent and phnysical... Grrrrr."
Oracle: "Yes, I am sorry to inform you that your wife is cheating on you. She is under the evil lust spell of Xykon the Lich, who is using her for his own and his buddy Belkar Bitterleaf's amusement. You can find him at these coordinates. Oh, and you might want to replace your animal companion, because it is really a minion of Belkar Bitterleaf as well, sent to keep an eye on you."

And voila, Oracle now has given Druid bad news, made himself seem sympathetic, eliminated the Druid, sicced the Druid on Belkar, still had the Druid deal with the Animal Companion who is really sleeping with his wife, and in doing so made it wear the Druid is thankful and not going to go all crazy and killy on the Oracle.

But the Oracle can't do that, because then he'd have to admit to his own visions of the future no longer being correct, and he'd rather have the false pretense of infallibility then admit he is frequently wrong when not all glowy visiony, and constantly lying to mess with people, viscious, and intentionally vague to screw with people doing good, or intentionally twists the words of his visions to make it seem like he is predicting something different then he really is.

Just so everyone knows, the Prediction to Haley was too late (When the Gift Horse came knocking was at the New Years event when Elan was waiting and expecting a kiss... which was before the Oracle's prediction. Calling Nale a Gift Horse is wrong, because a Gift Horse is something bring a benefitial Gift... Nale brought nothing good for Haley, he only brought death, betrayal, and possible sacrifice for months of bliss for Nale and Sabine... similar to the fate Sabine intended for Roy. The only classic saying that would have described Nale would have been, Beware the Wolf in Sheep's Clothing... I mean seriously... How more literal can you get? He was wearing Elan's clothing).

Koshiro

2011-01-10, 07:30 AM

Proof he is fallible. If he didn't want to die at the end of Belkar's knives he just had to say
See, this is not the way his prophecies work. The work in the "This will happen" way.
If the Oracle had wanted to avoid the whole goings-on with Belkar, Haley and Celia, he just would have had to relocate to somewhere else (Kingdom of Somewhere Else). But he didn't.

Belkar would have never stabbed him, but that is just it, the Oracle doesn't care about his well being, he is not a leveled character so he had no level loss
He specifically talked about gaining back a level after being raised. So, yes he had a level loss.

And while Koshiro tries to say his visions are accurate and concrete I point out, he didn't warn about the mess caused by Belkar (probably because the mess was overlooked by Haley, Belkar, and Celia, and was actually there before they arrived, argued, and Belkar did his stab), and the key point. The Oracle chooses to die rather then change his visions.
Actually, he did know about the mess, but just forgot to tell the priests. But anyhow:
What you are pointing at here is the simple fact that precise, accurate predictions of the future are incompatible with the notions of free will and meaningful decisions. You are correct; I share this view of the situation, but I arrive at a different conclusion.

My conclusion is: In the OotS-Verse, there is no free will and there are no meaningful decisions.

Your conclusion is: The predictions of the future, as shown to us, are lies.

Note that these are the only two conclusions logically possible, and that when Roy tells Elan something about 'making it happen', he's delusional.

P.S.: I should note, of course, that all of this is based on the assumption that the OotS-Verse operates on something resembling our own causality. If, on the other hand, their universe is some conscious or semi-conscious force which does not have an overall plan but will only literally make prophecies happen if they are asked for, it's a different thing. Sorta like a Schrödinger's cat. A person's fate is not definitely decided until you bother to look. Could be, but would be weird.

martianmister

2011-01-10, 12:45 PM

The second interesting glance into the future is that the world is still going to exist in March 1187, which is about two years(?) from the current comic time. So apparently the Snarl does not destroy the world in the next two years

More than that:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html

Koshiro

2011-01-10, 02:29 PM

More than that:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html
Yes, I thought of that as well, but I classified it as a side joke on the part of the author, not as a part of the main narrative continuity. YMMV, of course, and seeing as how the Hydra BBQ franchise has actually resurfaced in later strip, you may have a good point there.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-11, 12:49 AM

Can't happen... Belkar Chaotic Evil... IFCC is Lawful Evil... Belkar will never be remotely in the same section of Evil Afterlife as them.
No. One of the IFCC is Lawful Evil; another is Chaotic Evil and the third is Neutral Evil. That's the whole point of the IFCC - that they are, y'know, an Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission.

Also, we have no idea at all how fast and loose Rich is going to play with the rules regarding the lower planes.

You are so in a rush to make the Oracle right and kill of Belkar that you ignore anything that doesn't fit your niche, while I keep adapting and adding more... spammy it may be, but that is because I'm not bent on making a nameless reoccuring joke triumph over the Order.
...whereas you're in such a frenzy to prove Belkar will live no matter what that you repeatedly ignore things we see happen directly in the comic. I'm not in a rush to do anything. As I said, I have no vested interest in anything at all happening in the comic. I simply believe that Belkar will die because it would suit the direction of the story and the feelings toward him by the rest of the main cast, that it adds a deal of believability to the threat the heroes face if there are casualties among them along the way, and because we've been all but flat-out told it's going to happen.

In fact... how many innocents can you name that Belkar has actually killed since joining the Order? I think the count is 0. Belkar may be a royal sadist, but he has only killed those that deserved it, and in many cases he just poked a dead body just to release some tensions. Sure he has made threats and people have thought the worst of him, but he has not killed any innocents in 767 strips. Durkon has potentially killed more innocents in the past 767 strips then Belkar.
If you say so. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html)

Proof he is fallible. If he didn't want to die at the end of Belkar's knives he just had to say, "I lied, I was wrong, but this is now the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling, and if you stab me you will activate the Greater Mark of Judgement. You will then feel an extreme headache, vomit alot, make a big mess, Haley will kick you from the Order but promptly forget once you leave the valley, and it won't matter because I have priests just waiting to pop in here and raise dead on me anyway."
He looked into the future and saw Belkar stabbing him, so he didn't try to avoid it, beyond a few half-heartedly stretched facts because he likes to wind Belkar up. "I saw no reason to have my fun where I could." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) He still knew it was going to happen, and made preparations to go along with it.

Belkar would have never stabbed him, but that is just it, the Oracle doesn't care about his well being, he is not a leveled character so he had no level loss
"Well, looks like I better start getting that Expert level back". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html)

Man, that Oracle's such a liar he even lies to himself.

Roy pointed out to Elan that you have to make your prophecy come true, that means that the prophecies aren't set in stone, but based on the characters' actions.
So the Oracle isn't infallible, but Roy is? :smallconfused:

The Oracle not only wanted, but needed Belkar to assist him in his suicide to keep up the deception of being right
Even if you want to call it suicide, there is no "deception" of being right there. There Oracle knew he would kill him - that's why he hired those guys to resurrect him - and Belkar did kill him. That's not the Oracle deceiving anyone, that's the Oracle being right.

(And I still say the stab wound was not one where it would have been lethal, so the Oracle's death and Belkar stabbing him were coincide... no wait... that's it... Belkar usually could have stabbed the Oracle and hurt him with no effects, a single would would be bad, but the Oracle would need to reach -10 hp to die... that means that something had seriously hurt the Oracle before the arrived, Belkar just assisted someone else in getting the kill. The Oracle was using some trick to stay on his feet and was taking advantage that talking is a free action... 1 stab could not have taken all the Oracle's remaining HP unless he was close to or already in the negatives) and instead of accepting failure and that his Goddess can't let him be all-seeing, he forced his own death to cover his and her mutual failure.
Belkar's one-shotted an awful lot of people throughout the comic. Unless you want to argue that most of them were also all right on the verge of death before he finished them off, then this entire line of argument is just nonsense.

And voila, Oracle now has given Druid bad news, made himself seem sympathetic, eliminated the Druid, sicced the Druid on Belkar
That won't even happen for another two to three years, and he already knows Belkar's only got a few months left, so what would that achieve?

Dude, you have literally no idea what you are talking about. But I'm sure you'll give another near-impenetrable Wall of Wrong in reply anyway, so I expect I'm pretty much done here. :smallsigh:

Firemeier

2011-01-11, 02:23 AM

You mean like Spiderman? Oh wait, he came back... Superman then... oh no, back... Batman? Nope he's back... Jason Todd the 2nd Robin... nope him too... Bucky... wait, yeah he's alive too... Charles Xavier? Hulk? Aquaman? Wonder Woman? Donna Troy? Green Arrow? Hal Jordan? Phoenix? Cyclops? Wolverine? May Parker? Superboy? Barry Allen? Bart Allen? Steve "Captain America" Rogers? Mr. Immortal (okay, that one is just cheap, but still)? Nope, all of them are back to life... Heck, even DEADMAN is alive again... the guy has dead in his freakin codename, he has been deceased since his origin and even he has been brought back to life. Even Aunt May Parker has been brought back to life a few times. And Evil characters, especially Evil ones that do good come back to life: Doctor Doom, Magneto, Lex Luthor, etc.

And it isn't a trope, it is called a basis for maintaining a story. Kill off your main characters and your story sucks... A Comic series tried it once, killed off most of the main characters, replaced them... Doom Patrol sucked after that... so they resurrected the originals.

Congratulations! You managed to find examples of stories where characters did not die permanently. Have a cookie. :smallsigh:
But as far as I can tell most of these differ from OotS in one important aspect: They are not continuous storylines which end at a certain point. And it would indeed be difficult for a company to release more Batman comics without... Batman. OotS doesn't face the same problem. The comic wouldn't be crippled without Belkar, there are still 5 protagonists left. Heck, it's not even sure Belkar will be gone from the comic altogether; he might find himself in the afterlife or the world inside the rift.

Anyway, you do acknowledge that the death of a main character doesn't neccessarily make your story suck? Best example off the top of my head is George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire: One of the main protagonists dies in the first book and the series goes on to achieve ever higher levels of awesome.
Or the big one, Lord of the Rings: Boromirs death does not detract from the story but enhances it greatly.

Game of Thrones spoiler:
These are even played by the same actor, incidentally. :smallbiggrin:

Kish

2011-01-11, 06:24 AM

"Well, looks like I better start getting that Expert level back". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html)

Man, that Oracle's such a liar he even lies to himself.
Besides which, if the Oracle actually had been first level, he would have lost two Constitution points from dying and being resurrected.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-11, 12:12 PM

Congratulations! You managed to find examples of stories where characters did not die permanently. Have a cookie. :smallsigh:
But as far as I can tell most of these differ from OotS in one important aspect: They are not continuous storylines which end at a certain point. And it would indeed be difficult for a company to release more Batman comics without... Batman. OotS doesn't face the same problem. The comic wouldn't be crippled without Belkar, there are still 5 protagonists left. Heck, it's not even sure Belkar will be gone from the comic altogether; he might find himself in the afterlife or the world inside the rift.

Anyway, you do acknowledge that the death of a main character doesn't neccessarily make your story suck? Best example off the top of my head is George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire: One of the main protagonists dies in the first book and the series goes on to achieve ever higher levels of awesome.
Or the big one, Lord of the Rings: Boromirs death does not detract from the story but enhances it greatly.

Game of Thrones spoiler:
These are even played by the same actor, incidentally. :smallbiggrin:

You think Boromir is a main character? Major maybe, but main, no. Main characters are the characters the story revolves around, major characters are the "Supporting Actors". Frodo, Samwise, Gandalf (dies, comes back), Aragorn are the main characters (Bilbo was the main of the Hobbit). Main character's drive the story, and actually, comics have an option that is used and then unused... I pointed out Bruce Wayne died in the comics... he has over a half-dozen successors, but they still only kept him dead a short period... Superman had fewer successors, but they still tried to make a plotline out of which of 4 or 5 would take up the reigns only to bring him back... The Flash was able to die, pass on the mantle, then have the mantle passed on again, only to have all 3 die and all 3 come back.

A main character can die, but they come back (Harry Potter, Gandalf), major supporting characters can have permanent deaths. A simple rule of thumb... did the character have any solo time, their own sequence of events that showed them off by themself... then they're probably a Main character... If they have to have another major/main character around to be shown then they're probably not a main character (Pippen and Merryweather together are almost a main character, as are Legolis and Gimli... you'll notice they get some major screen time, but they are always paired and/or with Aragorn, or Frodo, or Gandalf. That also pretty much protects them from both dying, but doesn't mean one of them can't die to potentially elevate or boost the other for dramatic effect).

Every member of the Order has had solo time, and also...

Nimro'd Son... when you kill someone for believability of the threat, you don't kill the guy everyone hates... you kill the guy everyone likes... so... Haley would in that line of thinking be the one to die... except as the token female she is safe. Some things are Genre Saavy, others are major storytelling tools. Belkar is the line... he is the point the rest won't sink to, and that is actually what the comic you posted is about. Belkar killed a named Gnome (which there is like only 1 other named Gnome in the series) who admitted to be headed for Azure City with Spice (which in many fictional worlds is a codeword for drugs). Yes, he killed a possible innocent (Wow... 767 strips, and a CE Ranger possibly killed a single innocent, which he admitted immediately to thinking he was doing for the right, however deluded, reasons) which was the whole point, to show the differences in Celia and Belkar's way of thinking, and to show Haley in the moral middle having to listen to Celia's extreme view of mocking Haley's rationalizations of killing actual foes. this is called juxtaposition, using Belkar's callous attitude toward NPCs (Which incidentally is far more strict then most Roleplayers are really... LG character players will slaughter NPCs left and right in the name of 'Justice' without even checking, so a CE character killing one with no regards for its life and history is actually pretty bland) to demonstrate the level where the Order (via its less morally strict 2nd in command) draws the line on who and what they kill without regard, as well as Celia's extreme pacifist views and complaints about the Order's rampant killing.

And actually, besides the Oracle, this is the only guy we've seen 1-shot (1 hp lvl 0 Drug... er Spice Merchant)... all the others we've seen him fight are in the middle of action sequences where the presumption is several rapid attacks using his dual wield specialization and combat style mastery (Remember, in both instances Haley was there and if he was in full combat mode she cound intercede, but in all other scenes they're either fighting together, he's alone, or he's making multiple attacks like so http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0042.html).

Strife Warzeal

2011-01-11, 01:04 PM

After some thinking, I thought of a way Belkar could stay dead with a very low chance of coming back to life. It is quite simple actually, all that needs to happen is his body be destroyed completely or be unrecoverable. Durkon's highest level spell we've seen cast is resurrection (7th level) that puts him 4 levels too low to cast true resurrection (and he probably won't be gaining enough any time soon). It is highly unlikely that there is many, if any, 17th level clerics in the OotS world that would be willing to cast it. The only possible one that we know is anywhere near that level is Redcloak (It has not been shown yet if he is or not), and he is kinda their main enemy.

Swordpriest

2011-01-11, 01:42 PM

Actually, Shoeless, you've made some good points about the Oracle with the prophecy stuff, especially with the druid. Your posts are so long that I'm not going to quote them, but IMO, you've got some pretty acute observations there. The Oracle could easily alter the outcome of his predictions.

Firemeier

2011-01-11, 02:12 PM

You think Boromir is a main character? Major maybe, but main, no.

Fine. Whatever. Your mileage may vary, but the point remains - having a main character die, does not automatically and inevitably result in a crappy story.

Every member of the Order has had solo time

So, by your line of reasoning every member of the Order is protected from permanent death. They cannot and will not die. Ever. Under any circumstance.
That sounds like an incredibly weak premise for storywriting. It's completely against that "believable threat" thing Nimrod's Son mentioned.

Speaking of which:

Nimro'd Son... when you kill someone for believability of the threat, you don't kill the guy everyone hates... you kill the guy everyone likes

To put it in the dude's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsogswrH6ck) words: Well, you know, that's just like... uh... your opinion man.

That's the problem of this thread, you say something like that and then proceed to treat it like a universal truth. One of your main premises is that the oracle is lying. Imho one could make a fairly reasonable argument for that, even though we have word of God that it was definitely not intended this way. In DstP the Giant said that he deliberately set the community up, so that everyone was guessing how the prophecy could be twisted or weaseled out of, but in the end the prophecy was straight: Belkar did cause the death of one of the persons listed in his question. But you act as if you were explaining the world to an idiot child. And in the course twisting and jerking every factoid gleaned from the comic so that it fits your argument.

(1 hp lvl 0 Drug... er Spice Merchant)

Ok, now I suspect you just took that feat Miko had. You know, the one that let's you jump to conclusions however far fetched they are.

Mystic Muse

2011-01-11, 03:21 PM

Ok, now I suspect you just took that feat Miko had. You know, the one that let's you jump to conclusions however far fetched they are.

No no. He got the mat from office space.

Trazoi

2011-01-11, 04:47 PM

Fine. Whatever. Your mileage may vary, but the point remains - having a main character die, does not automatically and inevitably result in a crappy story.
But how can it be a good story if a main character dies? Do you think Shakespeare killed off a leading character in one of his great plays like Hamlet, King Lear, Romeo & Juliet or Macbeth? Don't be silly.

Gift Jeraff

2011-01-11, 05:53 PM

No. One of the IFCC is Lawful Evil; another is Chaotic Evil and the third is Neutral Evil. That's the whole point of the IFCC - that they are, y'know, an Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission.

Also, we have no idea at all how fast and loose Rich is going to play with the rules regarding the lower planes.
Not to mention, how is the Blood War supposed to be happening if the Lower Planes don't have some way of easily interacting with one another?

I could easily see Belkar participating in the war and enjoying it, only to have the 3 archfiends come and give a rousing speech about unity among the fiendish races, etc. and Belkar goes "Aw hell naw" and so on.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-11, 06:13 PM

But how can it be a good story if a main character dies? Do you think Shakespeare killed off a leading character in one of his great plays like Hamlet, King Lear, Romeo & Juliet or Macbeth? Don't be silly.
Although, as Shoelessgdowar will tell you, they're the wrong genre. Shakespeare didn't write comics so there'll be none of that going on. :smallsigh:

Trazoi

2011-01-11, 06:25 PM

Although, as Shoelessgdowar will tell you, they're the wrong genre. Shakespeare didn't write comics so there'll be none of that going on. :smallsigh:
That's okay. None of the main characters died in Watchmen either. :smalltongue:

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-12, 02:29 AM

But how can it be a good story if a main character dies? Do you think Shakespeare killed off a leading character in one of his great plays like Hamlet, King Lear, Romeo & Juliet or Macbeth? Don't be silly.

You mean at either the climax or after the climax, where the story essentially ends with the death save for perhaps some dénouement... That is fine and dandy when you are ending the story. Main Character Death is perfectly acceptable and a tenant of literature/film/television when it is the finale. But the issue here is we're talking the story going on after such death, and if the death itself is final, then the story is lacking a key element needed to continue to function... the main character.

I can only think of a few tv series that survived the death/removal/replacement of a character, and usually that was a brief continuation (8 Simple Rules about Dating My Daughter... the name of which seemed to make less sense with the Father dead... funny how it didn't get another season. And that was sadly not a writing issue, but a regretable loss of a fine actor) before cancellation due to loss of interest/ratings. And as I pointed out, even in comics where someone can and does tend to take up the mantle, there is only one character who ever has died, permanently, and had his mantle passed on... but The Phantom, the Ghost who walks, is so bland a character and every Walker is molded from birth to be the next one, that the cookiee cutter guy behind the mask is essentially the same guy over and over and over again, so much so that he is believed by most to be one immortal guy.

I apologise if I've come off callous and condescending. I admit to being somewhat stubborn, and tend to beat dead horses as well as be overzealous. But I find it infuriating when it feels like I have to treat people like children because points that seem obvious to me (like how a story's main characters are usually a carefully balanced design that if you remove any single one even briefly most times, it can cause everything to collapse, and if you remove one permanently then the erosion damage is frequently irreparable).

And on the note of the Spice Merchant... it was meant as a joke... Though I wonder why a seemingly Asian Based Culture like the previous residents of Azure City would have any need for Northern Spices, when they'd likely have their own very special spices that they'd grow in and around their vast city. So the joke about him being a Drug Dealer could actually be far more valid the more you consider the ramifications. Would he really be so ill-informed that he doesn't know that Azure City has been under Goblin/Hobgoblin Occupation for several months? If it is a seasonal issue, then isn't he far too early to be peddling spices which are more an autumn good then a late winter/early spring good? With the likes of Sabine out there, is it really safe to trust random NPCs without an alignment detecting spell check or atleast a sense motive check?

And back to the Oracle, if you know that Belkar isn't going to kill any of the others, only yourself, then why the F do you say "Yes!" when you could just say "No! But your actions will make Miko more vulnerable to a gruesome death, trap Windstriker on the Ethereal Plane, lead to Roy making a fool of himself and dying on his own, potentially causing Vaarsuvius to turn Evil, and while you may stab me if you so choose, I will not die, as I have a team of beings prepared to bring me back to life, so killing me would be futile." which would 1) Be true, 2) would probably keep Belkar from wasting his energy, 3) make it so Belkar doesn't stab him, 4) Thereby leading to his prediction being correct, even if it is because he has rewritten what he already saw... unless his purpose is to further evil and/or he can't see the future around Belkar and just made it up because odds were in favor of "Yes" with Belkar's visciousness.

Gettles

2011-01-12, 03:26 AM

But how can it be a good story if a main character dies? Do you think Shakespeare killed off a leading character in one of his great plays like Hamlet, King Lear, Romeo & Juliet or Macbeth? Don't be silly.

You are overlooking something important that separates OOTS from those works (well aside the obvious one that Burlew is no Shakespeare.) And that is that this comic has half a dozen main characters. The main characters name isn't the title of the strip which makes it much more difficult to kill them off. In an ensemble cast it is much easier to kill someone off as you still have several other main characters to pull the plot along. Belkar is very killable considering that Roy is the Main Character (note the caps) and that Elan and Hailey both do more for the story than he does.

Don't try that "the plot can't work with out a main character" because this comic has main characters to spare.

Aldrakan

2011-01-12, 05:58 AM

And on the note of the Spice Merchant... it was meant as a joke...
I'd love to hear an explanation of how that means it isn't relevant to the argument.

And back to the Oracle, if you know that Belkar isn't going to kill any of the others, only yourself, then why the F do you say "Yes!"

...because he has to answer the question put to him truthfully and is limited by the scope of the question. That's the whole point of the different speech bubble and why he tried to get Roy to rephrase his question rather than just telling him that Xykon would actually be going to the other gate.
And he's prophesying, not writing the future. That's why he's an Oracle, not freaking God. He obviously doesn't have the power to change things that he's seen, otherwise he wouldn't make arrangements in advance to be revived from his next death, he'd just avoid it.

Anyway, yeah, OotS is an ensemble cast not the Belkar show, no matter how much you like him, and shows with ensemble casts frequently do kill off main characters. Especially when they're starting, starting mind you, to approach the climax. Torchwood killed three of its five main characters over the course of three seasons. Angel also killed off three. Sanctuary killed off a main character at the end of the first season. Steve Trevor from Wonder Woman. Morpheus in Sandman. Primeval. The Wire. Dexter. Transformer's Beast Wars. Saw. The Dresden Files.

I could keep going for quite a while, and I'm sure most people on the forum could too. Are you seriously going to try and maintain that stories don't permanently kill off main characters? Any number of works that aren't committed to maintaining a permanently extensible status quo will kill off main characters quite frequently. Mostly because some people are willing to let a story evolve, and its characters change, and to explore the dynamics and consequences created by a main character dying.
Comics are actually a bad example here, because they're indefinitely continuing and change writers, and people who were really attached to an old character get put in charge. Like how if Belkar did die, and you somehow started writing OotS, I'm guessing you'd bring him back. But in works with a single author it doesn't work like that.

Kish

2011-01-12, 06:05 AM

You are overlooking something important that separates OOTS from those works (well aside the obvious one that Burlew is no Shakespeare.)
You are overlooking something even more important that doesn't separate OotS from those works.

Firemeier

2011-01-12, 07:10 AM

You are overlooking something important that separates OOTS from those works (well aside the obvious one that Burlew is no Shakespeare.) And that is that this comic has half a dozen main characters. The main characters name isn't the title of the strip which makes it much more difficult to kill them off. In an ensemble cast it is much easier to kill someone off as you still have several other main characters to pull the plot along. Belkar is very killable considering that Roy is the Main Character (note the caps) and that Elan and Hailey both do more for the story than he does.

Don't try that "the plot can't work with out a main character" because this comic has main characters to spare.

I think you are overlooking that Trazoi's post was meant sarcastically, since main characters actually DO die in said Shakespeare plays. He was making a case for the possibility of Belkar's death.

I apologise if I've come off callous and condescending.

I appreciate that.

like how a story's main characters are usually a carefully balanced design that if you remove any single one even briefly most times, it can cause everything to collapse, and if you remove one permanently then the erosion damage is frequently irreparable).

Now, with that, I can agree. I see your concern, but then again the Giant isn't most writers. He hasn't disappointed me yet and I trust that he can pull off the stunt to make Belkar's death an emotionally captivating event that adds to the overall experience of OotS.
And again, as I and others have pointed out, if the prophecy comes true and Belkar is killed, that doesn't neccessarily mean, we will never see Belkar again.

And back to the Oracle, if you know that Belkar isn't going to kill any of the others, only yourself, then why the F do you say "Yes!" when you could just say "No! But [..]

Well, the most obvious answer is "because it makes for a way more interesting story." :smallwink:
But we're not discussing that anyway, so you're right, the Oracle could possibly talk himself out of it. But I'm more getting the impression that he simply chooses not to. Maybe it's a part of his deal with Tiamat, that he can't attempt to change the future he sees. Or perhaps he believes so firmly in the infallability of the prophecies that he just endures them.

Plus, if he was just making up the prophecies in the first place, why would he tell the druid that his wife cheats on him instead of telling him that everything is fine, taking the cash and then complimenting him out as quickly as possible?

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-12, 11:13 AM

Well, the most obvious answer is "because it makes for a way more interesting story." :smallwink:
But we're not discussing that anyway, so you're right, the Oracle could possibly talk himself out of it. But I'm more getting the impression that he simply chooses not to. Maybe it's a part of his deal with Tiamat, that he can't attempt to change the future he sees. Or perhaps he believes so firmly in the infallability of the prophecies that he just endures them.

Plus, if he was just making up the prophecies in the first place, why would he tell the druid that his wife cheats on him instead of telling him that everything is fine, taking the cash and then complimenting him out as quickly as possible?[/QUOTE]

The Oracle exploits the weaknesses in the way stuff is asked (The reason Roy and Durkon held him out a window... because In his Throne Room was a BS answer to abuse the wording. So if he has the option to give misleading or pointless answers, then his prophecies aren't governed by restrictions on him embellishing them), in addition, as seen with Lickmyorangeballshalfing (potentially named Shouldacheckamap) he has options and can make plans (has free will), so his future isn't set in stone. (Ie. If the name of the town was optional... not in the vision... then probably the town was optional, just something he did to screw with Belkar...) which means from square one he could have twisted the prophecy to be as I said before: "No, you won't kill any of THEM (This is true, he doesn't kill Miko, Roy, Miko's Horse, nor Vaarsuvious), and killing me will be pointless as I have people to raise dead and resurrect me who will just show up after you've left (Also true... and potentially capable of keeping Belkar from even trying), and probably for ****s and giggles if you did kill me, I'd have a way to activate that Greater Mark of Justice on you, causing your head to feel like it will explode, induce projectile vomitting, and eventually lead to you hallucinating and dying if you don't get it removed." (Again, all absolutely true. And obviously up to him to tell, make sure Belkar remembers it, and put the fear of the Oracle into Belkar...) unless the Oracle doesn't see a set future, but like many fictional precogs, sees a myriad of possible futures, all branching from that moment, and the further he looks the more possibilities and variables affect it, making the odds of picking the right one to tell harde, except since people don't remember anything of their visit except the prophecy after the leave, the prophecy itself influences their decisions toward the same events happening (See Classic Greek Mythology: Oedipus).

Also... I'm not sure Angel nor Sanctuary are really the best examples you'd want to use (I never watched Torchwood, so I'll take your word for it... but it is a spin-off of a show that kills off their title character every so often just to have him come back as a new actor playing him, and he doesn't even have an actual name, just a title... Wow... I just registered that... he is the Title Character with only a title and though the show is named for him we have never heard his actual name.), Angel is undead, Cordelia came back to life, Lorn came back to life. Okay, I admit the impact of killing off a major supporting character like Doyle was pretty good, but Doyle was mainly there for the prophecies and to play off Cordy and the odd relationship they had since Angel couldn't have any amorous relationships, which Cordy took over when he passed her his "gift" and Wes filled in for a much more believable inept sidekick. Sure they killed of Fred, but they more of had her possessed and it became Fred and Illyria combined (Illyria frequently found herself confused by how she felt things that should not have lingered, which I took as the intention that eventually Fred and Illyria would merge truely into a unified melding of their beings, as we sort of got a glimpse of in the Finale), Gunn didn't really die, Spike played Ghost Vampire (Um... wtf... a Ghost Vampire? Why have I never complained about the absurdity of that concept before? Why is it during these rants I notice BS I just watched and took in stride when it was on TV?) but he got resurrected (does that even make sense? I mean, he was brought back to unlife?) again (not counting for the fact both Angel and Spike died on Buffy... a few times), and Wes' death was only during the Finale (took them freakin long enough). As for Sanctuary... John died, but came back... Tesla died, came back... Will died, came back... Ashley died, came back, died again (is rumoured to be coming back again), okay, yes, granted, most of the main characters did die at the cliff-hanger ending in the most recent issue including Helen (Yes, I'm so sure Amanda Tapping has written herself completely out of the Series) but somehow that feels more like a really intense cliche episode ending so the question isn't if they died(because if the did they'll be resurrected, and they may not have, either way that is just for dramatic effect), but how did they avoid dying/how are they getting resurrected. Oh, and as for Beast Wars... Prime came back, Megatron came back, heck, they're machines, they're never really dead, just recycled parts ;)

Aldrakan

2011-01-12, 01:29 PM

Yeah, some of the characters that died came back in those shows. Others did not, and stayed dead. Similar to how Roy died, and came back, but not everyone who dies comes back.
Cordelia "came back" for one episode halfway through the last season after having been in a coma, not dead, and at the end of that episode she died and did not reappear. What was your point?
Your argument for Doyle appears to be that his death had great impact because he was a main character, but it didn't hurt the show because they introduced a new character who could provide comedy relief and the show's dynamic was ultimately improved as a result. Which is like the exact opposite of your "killing off main characters ruins a story" position, so I have no idea why you even brought that up.
Illyria is a recognizably different character, and doesn't fill anything like the same role in the show as Fred did, and Fred is dead.

And as for Spike, Angel, Gunn, Lorne, and Wesley, I wasn't counting them, because they died at the very end, or never properly died. That why I said three instead of eight main characters died.
For Beast Wars, I meant Scorponok, Terrorsaur, and Tarantulas. Not the ones who came back or died in the final episode. Hey I'll even give you Dinobot, even though his character was gone for the remainder of the series.

There are enough strong examples of this happening not to have to pad the count with bad ones.

And well done, you've noticed that Doctor Who isn't going to kill off the Doctor. I'm pretty sure My Little Pony didn't kill off any main characters either, are you really going to continue trying to treat it as conclusive evidence that shows don't kill off major characters just because you can name one that didn't? Argue that "it didn't happen here" means "it never happens"?

Edit: Re: The prophecy, there's the much simpler explanation than your bizarre idea that he can see the future but he can't see the future properly so he goes through all this trouble to ensure that his prophecy does come true or no one can tell anyone when one didn't, a strategy which paradoxically enough would actually require him to be able to see the future perfectly pull off: only the things he actually sees are set in stone. He saw Belkar killing him, but he didn't see the surrounding area, and so he put the village there. When he sees his death he can't avoid it, but he can make provisions for what happens after his vision stops because he knows it's coming.

And your claim that because he can give unhelpful answers he can "embellish" them sorta works, except that all the unhelpful answers he's given have been him answering the question put to him. If they word it so that he can accurately answer the question unhelpfully, he can do so, or he can give them a more complete answer. That's not the same as allowing him to throw in a bunch of info that they didn't ask for or outright lying, which seems to be what you're calling embellishing. Because in neither of those cases is he answering the question he was asked.

Like, if you was granting wishes and someone wishes for enough money to live off of for the rest of their life, you could fulfill that request by giving them enough to scrape by poverty, or enough to live in luxury and support a family. Because both are possible ways to directly fulfill that request.

If you give them nothing but kill them instead so they don't need money, that's not a proper interpretation of the wish. That's just being a jerk; they only asked for money, not death, so you have no right to give them death.

If you give them money and also a vineyard that would ultimately make them much happier because it'll turn out they have a passion for wine-making and, one day while walking in the fields of their vineyard will meet a lovely woman and they get married and live happily ever after, that's not a proper interpretation of the wish. They only asked for money, and you have no ability to give them bonuses.

Swordpriest

2011-01-12, 02:13 PM

Well, the whole idea of seeing the future is something best not looked at too closely, anyway. :smallbiggrin: It's enough to make your head swim even in a fantasy setting ....

Yora

2011-01-12, 02:21 PM

There's simply no fun in having Belkar dying. If Rich didn't like the character and wants to drop him, he wouldn't keep the thing off for such a long time and continue to give Belkar so many great moments. I think he loves the character and knows that he's a big selling point for lots of the readers.

But it's also not fun if the oracles prediction is simply false.

I'm pretty sure the prediction will come true, but it will happen in a way nobody would have even suspected, even if we knew before that something unexpected would happen. But I'm also sure we won't see the comic without Belkar.
OotS is really great at subverting standards of fiction writing, and I'm sure this is waht will happen with this as well.

Koshiro

2011-01-12, 03:28 PM

only the things he actually sees are set in stone. He saw Belkar killing him, but he didn't see the surrounding area, and so he put the village there. When he sees his death he can't avoid it, but he can make provisions for what happens after his vision stops because he knows it's coming.
This, of course, does not make any sense from a viewpoint of conventional causality. (Let's leave Schrödinger's cat out of the discussion for now.) He knew that he was going to get killed again in 1187 before the whole Belkar thing had actually occurred, so he also knew that wouldn't stay dead. That kinda makes the whole preparations for his first death moot, because he already knew he would be revived.
If your view of the situation were true, the Oracle would simply have to glance very far into the future, see if he's still alive at that point, then stop worrying. If he sees himself as alive in, say, 1200, preparations for any possible 'deaths' between 1184 and 1199 will be inconsequential anyway. If he sees himself as dead, the same.
Now it's quite possible that the Oracle didn't grasp or did not want to grasp the logical consequences of this himself, which are as I said before:
Prophecies 'set in stone' are incompatible with a free will and meaningful decisions.

On the other hand: If the Oracle can change the foretold future, so can (in theory) Belkar. If, as Roy puts it, you have to make your prophecy happen, you can also make it not happen.

Swordpriest

2011-01-12, 03:47 PM

If he sees himself as alive in, say, 1200, preparations for any possible 'deaths' between 1184 and 1199 will be inconsequential anyway. If he sees himself as dead, the same.
Now it's quite possible that the Oracle didn't grasp or did not want to grasp the logical consequences of this himself, which are as I said before:
Prophecies 'set in stone' are incompatible with a free will and meaningful decisions.

On the other hand: If the Oracle can change the foretold future, so can (in theory) Belkar. If, as Roy puts it, you have to make your prophecy happen, you can also make it not happen.

An excellent summary of the situation. Either it was predestined for the Oracle to be revived, making his preparations moot -- and, incidentally, making the founding of the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling also a matter of fate, which would also inevitably happen -- or else choices do impact the future, and what he is seeing is only the most probably future.

The fact that the Oracle made specific arrangements for the lizardmen to revive him, and reminded them of their next visit (which suggests there's a possibility they might forget if he didn't remind them, indicating it's not destined that they'll remember, which would create an alternate future where he stayed dead after the druid mauled him), and founded the village, seems to indicate that he can alter the future with plans.

That being the case, why is he going to hang around and let the druid maul him? Why not absent himself as he did with Xykon? Is every other possible future caused by him leaving home on the day when the druid arrives going to leave him permanently dead, and that's literally the only possible future that will have him end up alive?

If the Oracle can change the future by making choices now (which seems to be the case), then anyone else can, too. Which would mean that his predictions are, at best, "highly probable" rather than "written in stone".

On the other hand, if they're written in stone, contrary to the logic of what we've seen with the Oracle, why bother making plans or decisions? If you lie down on the ground, and just lie there, the exact same outcome will result no matter what -- if you're destined to die young, you'll die young, if you're the destined heir to the kingdom you'll be king.
.

Aldrakan

2011-01-12, 04:30 PM

If that is the case, it probably explains why the Oracle doesn't hand out all possible information to everyone in the world. A negligible of the population see the Oracle, and a lot of them don't ask for prophecies but rather current information or advice which requires future knowledge to give, but doesn't actually tell them the future.

The future being set doesn't violate free will unless the person knows their own future and is powerless to change it. The fact that someone can supernaturally predict their decision doesn't change the fact that they're making a decision, anymore than being able to predict what someone will do through analysis of their character denies them free will.

If someone is prophesied to become King, learns about it, and decides to just sit around until it happens I see two possibilities (if the prophecy is true). There is an external force which manipulates events so that the single event that was predicted occurs - if they were not told, they presumably would not have just sat around, and so everything except them becoming king is different. This still have free will, it's simply that something far beyond them is controlling the situation.
Or them learning they would be king and deciding to sit around and it happening as a result is always what was supposed to happen. However, because they didn't know that they're still making the decision themselves.

Now if you're told "you will spend the next twenty years working your way up through the ranks of the military, launch a coup, and become king before being killed at the age of 45 by an angry farmer" and instead decide to become a bartender. But then you get drafted, and your superior takes a ridiculous fondness to you and you keep getting promoted, then several senior military officials decide you'd make a good figurehead and under your "command" overthrow the government and crown you king. Then you turn 45 and ban milkmaid's from a twenty mile radius around you, but then one of your servant's quits because she's decided to go work at her sister's farm, you freak out and she throws a wine bottle at your head killing you... well yeah, you'd probably feel pretty powerless.

That could be why the prophecies are vague, or it could be the words of the prophecy are part of fulfilling it.

And yes, this did use the Schrodinger's Cat version of foretelling. I see no reason to dismiss it.

Koshiro

2011-01-12, 04:56 PM

The fact that someone can supernaturally predict their decision doesn't change the fact that they're making a decision, anymore than being able to predict what someone will do through analysis of their character denies them free will.
Actually, if it was possible to predict one's decision with 100% accuracy, it would be meaningless to call it a decision.

If someone is prophesied to become King, learns about it, and decides to just sit around until it happens I see two possibilities (if the prophecy is true). There is an external force which manipulates events so that the single event that was predicted occurs - if they were not told, they presumably would not have just sat around, and so everything except them becoming king is different.
Well, this explanation would mean that the universe is some kind of intelligent being and that by asking it for a prophecy, it signs some kind of contract with you that it will fulfill. However...

Now if you're told "you will spend the next twenty years working your way up through the ranks of the military, launch a coup, and become king before being killed at the age of 45 by an angry farmer" and instead decide to become a bartender. But then you get drafted, and your superior takes a ridiculous fondness to you and you keep getting promoted, then several senior military officials decide you'd make a good figurehead and under your "command" overthrow the government and crown you king. Then you turn 45 and ban milkmaid's from a twenty mile radius around you, but then one of your servant's quits because she's decided to go work at her sister's farm, you freak out and she throws a wine bottle at your head killing you... well yeah, you'd probably feel pretty powerless.
... you would have to go through ridiculous contortions to make something like this happen. If you just decided you did not want any of this, you would literally have to be forced on pain of death at every step. And at any point you could still undo all of this by simply committing suicide. Or somebody who also knew of the prophecy could undo it by killing you.
This is also why simply treating the Oots-Verse as an 'author' and the Oracle as the publisher who makes the author promise certain developments doesn't really work. Well, actually it does work, but it reduces all characters on the story level to what they are on the narration level: Mindless creations without any will of their own.

That could be why the prophecies are vague,
As I said before: The prophecies the Oracle makes about himself are extremely precise.

And yes, this did use the Schrodinger's Cat version of foretelling. I see no reason to dismiss it.
Because, as I said, it requires ridiculous contortions of reality. In essence, it arbitrarily decouples certain events from the rest of causality. In physical reality, things happen according to cause and effect and you cannot just isolate a single event from the rest of reality.

P.S. one more thing:

only the things he actually sees are set in stone. He saw Belkar killing him, but he didn't see the surrounding area, and so he put the village there.
I don't think the prophecies work that way. Why not? Because his - again very precise - prophecy of Belkar drawing his last breath ever. If he can only see some events, he has no way of knowing that Belkar won't come back at some point.
Now he may have seen Belkar die in a way which would presumeably rule out his coming back - being undone by the Snarl, for example. But the keyword is "presumeably", since this would mean that the prophecies are subject to interpretation by the Oracle.

Kish

2011-01-12, 05:19 PM

If the Oracle can change the future by making choices now (which seems to be the case), then anyone else can, too. Which would mean that his predictions are, at best, "highly probable" rather than "written in stone".

On the other hand, if they're written in stone, contrary to the logic of what we've seen with the Oracle, why bother making plans or decisions? If you lie down on the ground, and just lie there, the exact same outcome will result no matter what -- if you're destined to die young, you'll die young, if you're the destined heir to the kingdom you'll be king.
.
You're excluding the middle.

As you point out, neither extreme fits with his actions. That doesn't mean nothing does, however. Most simply, he could see certain things which are fixed, while other future events are uncertain. His death at Belkar's hands? Fixed. His resurrection or lack thereof? Uncertain. His death at the druid's claws? Presumably, uncertain until he was resurrected this last time, and fixed after that.

Koshiro

2011-01-12, 05:29 PM

His death at Belkar's hands? Fixed. His resurrection or lack thereof? Uncertain. His death at the druid's claws? Presumably, uncertain until he was resurrected this last time, and fixed after that.
But he knew that the druid would kill him in 1187 before the resurrection after Belkar's attack. So either this prophecy was somehow upgraded from "probable" to "certain", which suggests it is possible to alter the future even after foretold, or the whole thing was pointless.

So far, there is nothing to suggest that any prophecies are anything less than ironclad, except for people in-universe assuming they are. But they - the Oracle included - could very well just be fooling themselves. Hardcore determinism is not something people take into account in their real lifes, even if they theoretically believe in it.

Swordpriest

2011-01-12, 05:35 PM

Aldrakan

2011-01-12, 06:32 PM

Actually, if it was possible to predict one's decision with 100% accuracy, it would be meaningless to call it a decision.

No at all. You're confusing prediction with causation. I'm not really interested in arguing this, because it's frankly beyond this forum and I'm far from qualified to participate in a proper discussion (and unless you have a philosophy degree, I doubt you are either). But if you're interested the keywords are probably omniscience, free will, and divine foreknowledge.

As I said before: The prophecies the Oracle makes about himself are extremely precise.

He's an Oracle. His role is to sit in his tower, knowing how destiny works. I'm prepared to give him more leeway because he's the keeper of this knowledge and probably has no interest in messing up the future. The prophecies he gives to others are much less precise, and don't give any real clue as to how these things would happen, thus making avoiding them or being forced into them much more unlikely.

I don't think the prophecies work that way. Why not? Because his - again very precise - prophecy of Belkar drawing his last breath ever. If he can only see some events, he has no way of knowing that Belkar won't come back at some point.
Now he may have seen Belkar die in a way which would presumeably rule out his coming back - being undone by the Snarl, for example. But the keyword is "presumeably", since this would mean that the prophecies are subject to interpretation by the Oracle.

I think you're interpreting me too literally. I don't mean that he just gets a picture of the scene, I mean he only knows things specifically related to the actual event he's foreseeing. He knows that Belkar kills him, but he doesn't know everything else that's happening in the world at the time. There's a difference between knowing specific bits of the future and total knowledge of it. Also it's spelled presumably.

Swordpriest

2011-01-12, 06:50 PM

I think you're interpreting me too literally. I don't mean that he just gets a picture of the scene, I mean he only knows things specifically related to the actual event he's foreseeing. He knows that Belkar kills him, but he doesn't know everything else that's happening in the world at the time. There's a difference between knowing specific bits of the future and total knowledge of it. Also it's spelled presumably.

In that case, though, decisions are still utterly vain, because regardless of what you decide to do, exactly the same outcome will result. So you might as well just sit down and relax -- if fate has good things in store for you, you'll get them with zero effort, and if it has bad things in store, all your striving is vain to avert even the least of them.

So, the Oracle didn't need to arrange for those guys to teleport in and revive him. It's fated to happen before he was born, and they'll revive him regardless of whether he tells them to or not. :smallsigh:

Personally, I think that the idea of fate is not only stupid, but boring. :smallyuk:

(I also don't think somebody needs a degree in something to debate effectively about it, but that's just me.)

Qwertystop

2011-01-12, 07:40 PM

In that case, though, decisions are still utterly vain, because regardless of what you decide to do, exactly the same outcome will result. So you might as well just sit down and relax -- if fate has good things in store for you, you'll get them with zero effort, and if it has bad things in store, all your striving is vain to avert even the least of them.

If it is fated that good or bad things will happen to you, then it is fated that you will do whatever leads to them.
For example:

So, the Oracle didn't need to arrange for those guys to teleport in and revive him. It's fated to happen before he was born, and they'll revive him regardless of whether he tells them to or not. :smallsigh:

If it was fated that they would teleport in, then it was also fated that he would arrange for them to teleport in.

Personally, I think that when the oracle checks the future, he only finds what the question is directly asking about. If there are multiple possibilities, he is shown (not necessarily visually) them each one, and how likely they are. In that case, he would make a vague prophecy. Since he only finds out what the question is directly related to, there is a much smaller chance of different outcomes. For example, the question of how Durkon would return home does not ask about the situation around that. Therefore, the oracle is not bombarded with thousands of slightly different scenes in which Durkon somehow crosses the border dead, which may include being dragged by any of many people, carried by same, thrown across, knocked in by an explosion, all of which could have many slightly different instances which do not affect the one answer: "Posthumously". Whatever is going on around him, all the oracle knows is that he is dead when he crosses.

Matamane

2011-01-12, 08:26 PM

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-12, 08:28 PM

Okay, I'm going to make this real quick :) I konw, not usually my style, but this will be more fun this way. If we truely accept that the Oracle is seeing the future, then we actually are accepting that he is looking in the box, and if he is looking in the box, then by the very act of looking, he is actually altering the future itself. Therefore he isn't seeing the future, which means he never saw the future to alter, therefore the Oracle is a Parodox, and perhaps an Oxymoron. He is an Oracle that see the Future that won't be, and doesn't see the future that will be, because if he sees that future that will be, then it won't be, and if he sees the future that won't be, it will be :)

And so we get the theory of Schrodinger's Kobold ;)

PsychedelicBard

2011-01-12, 08:33 PM

You see, this is why I hate time travel and fate. Not too hard to find a paradox. :smalltongue:

Smiling Knight

2011-01-12, 09:01 PM

Belkar did die, at least as how we knew him.

If he continued on the route he was on, he would have been killed off, however, he evolved.

The passcode to the remove curse was evolve or die, Belkar evolved, and figuratively he died, but he literally lived.

Willy Loman doesn't physically die in Death of a Saleman! He just quits his job and so "kills" his career. His lives the last twenty years of his life as a happy gardener. The funeral scene at the end was a red herring to fool the readers.

Aldrakan

2011-01-12, 09:02 PM

If it is fated that good or bad things will happen to you, then it is fated that you will do whatever leads to them.

Exactly. If you just sit around because you think destiny will take care of it for you you do so because that's predestined, but it's still likely to lead to you living an utterly worthless and unsatisfying life. Which is your destiny, I guess, but that's unlikely to be destined to bring you much comfort.

If everything that happens occurs because it's predestined then the consequences of your actions are exactly the same as they would be if they weren't destined. Cause and effect still exists, it's just that what causes will happen and what effects will result are set.

Shoeless, yes it is possible that by looking into the future it's altered. Alternatively, him looking into the future was always going to happen, and he was always going to have the information he gained from that, and so it changes nothing, because him looking into the future was destined. There's no necessity that looking into the future messes with destiny.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-12, 10:22 PM

Hey, here's an insane idea... Yeah, I know I have loads of those...

What if Belkar's body dies, him breathing HIS last breath ever, leaving no physical form to resurrect, but at that moment (or relatively close before or after) someone else dies and decides to move on instead of allowing themself to be raised... could Belkar's desire to live be sto strong that one someone tries to raise dead/resurrect the body, Belkar could possess it and thereby come back to life in a different body, thereby breathing someone else's breaths from then on? Yeah, a bit far fetched, but we are talking a genre that allows people to lose powers and skills instantly because that did something against their alignment (not to mention something being able to touch you and drain training and experience from you without removing the memories of them), and where a potion can make you so persuasive you can tell they're really a yellow footed rock wallaby and they believe you and go seek a wizard to turn their body back to that of a yellow footed rock wallaby.

Swordpriest

2011-01-12, 11:05 PM

Another thought: if everything is written, then what point is there in consulting with the Oracle? To learn a certainty you can do nothing about?

Warren Dew

2011-01-12, 11:10 PM

So, the Oracle didn't need to arrange for those guys to teleport in and revive him. It's fated to happen before he was born, and they'll revive him regardless of whether he tells them to or not. :smallsigh:
True. On the other hand, it was also fated that he would tell them to revive him. He doesn't have the choice of not telling them.

Aldrakan

2011-01-12, 11:53 PM

Actually if he hadn't told them, causality collapses. Because suddenly either destiny breaks, or destined effects occur despite lacking a cause.

Similarly the reason why people consult the Oracle is because if they didn't they would not act the same way, because they wouldn't have the information. That's why they have to consult him.

This really isn't very complicated. It works exactly like the real world. Things don't happen for no reason "because it's destiny". They happen for totally consistent reasons, and those reasons are part of destiny. The only thing that complicates it is the Oracle. But here looking into the future isn't outside this system. How people react to the knowledge they gain is part of the predestined future.

Firemeier

2011-01-13, 02:30 AM

Why is it that thinking about the logical (and illogical) convolutions involved in being able to predict the future with 100% accuracy always end up with a single conclusion in my mind -- specifically, "Gah!!!!"? :smallwink:

Exactly my thoughts when I tried to come up with a coherent response :smallbiggrin:

Actually if he hadn't told them, causality collapses. Because suddenly either destiny breaks, or destined effects occur despite lacking a cause.

Yes, predetermined fate is not a problem, until you know your fate and can try to alter it.

That's not so much an issue with the people consulting the oracle, as they haven't nearly enough information to rely solely on the prophecy for everything to work out.
But it makes the oracle a walking paradox. He seemingly has full information ,at least on his own fate, yet doesn't act very consistent about it. (On the one hand, knowing that he will die multiple times, on the other hand making preparations for it and even making half-a**ed attempts to talk Belkar out of stabbing him.)

Koshiro

2011-01-13, 06:22 AM

No at all.
Yes at all. If you can 100% predict the outcome of a dice roll, would you still call it random? Yeah, probably not. Likewise, I call a 100% predictable, and ergo 100% predetermined "decision" not a decision.
And ditch the "You need a degree or you can't discuss this" stuff. I may have only taken philosophy classes for interdisciplinary credits, but this attitude would not gain you any favors from the philosophy professors I know.

He's an Oracle. His role is to sit in his tower, knowing how destiny works.
You proposed a convoluted "fate will make it happen" explanation for how the Oracle's prophecies might work, and supported it by claiming that the prophecies were vague. Not all of them are. If you want to give 'some leeway' now, you're giving your own theory some leeway for being false.

This is by the way the basic problem of your entire argument: The Oracle is very much compatible with a determinist world view excluding free will. There are no additional assumptions necessary.
You, however, make several unsupported assumptions on how reality in the OotS-Verse works in order to reconcile free will with accurate predictions. This is not a rational approach.

I think you're interpreting me too literally. I don't mean that he just gets a picture of the scene, I mean he only knows things specifically related to the actual event he's foreseeing.
Yeah, but in D&D, death is not an "event", it's a state.

Niknokitueu

2011-01-13, 09:40 AM

Egads. So much posted over what is a simple plot device.

In Real Life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealLife) it may well be that your foreknowledge of the future changes the future that comes to pass.

OotS is not Real Life. And as a story, the story is already decided. Hence any predictions cast in it are going to occur. Any decisions by anyone in the story will already have been decided, and any attempts to pervert the future will not actually manage to do so.

The Oracle is a perfect Oracle. He is also a bit of a D*ck. He raises money by telling people answers to questions regarding the future. But, being a D*ck, he messes with people.

If he says Belkar will draw his last breath within a year, then that will happen. Whether it is by Belkar being killed off for real (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KilledOffForReal), or the statement that he will draw his last breath is only true from a certain point of view (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FromACertainPointOfView), is besides the point. The fact is that Belkar will indeed draw his last breath within a year.

Just like the Oracle knew that Belkar was going to kill him. And arranged for the relevant people to resurrect him. And he knows when he will die next. Note that he is not trying to change the future here, as he has seen the fact that he lives past these deaths, and so arranges for his own resurrection.

And the Oracle can indeed 'see' the future. He has had a vision of himself reading the book where Roy appears as a ghost, and can therefore interact with a ghost he knows is there, but cannot directly sense. The only way such a thing can work correctly is if the future is fixed and he can see that future. Which can only easily happen within a story. Good thing that OotS is a story... :smallbiggrin:

So, lets all just accept the fact that The Oracle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheOmniscient) does not lie, and in some form Belkar will draw his last breath. No need for philosophy, as Rich has already proven the Oracle's accuracy, both from his own death and his 'conversation' with Roy's ghost.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Aldrakan

2011-01-13, 10:47 AM

And ditch the "You need a degree or you can't discuss this" stuff. I may have only taken philosophy classes for interdisciplinary credits, but this attitude would not gain you any favors from the philosophy professors I know.

Yeah, and if we were in a class, I'd probably be a lot more interested in talking about it. But since our disagreement has already boiled down to contradicting each other on "Being able to predict something isn't the same as making it happen/A choice that can be predicted isn't really a choice", and our argument is based on two-real life philosophical positions without direct link to the comic, so unless you expect us to make some real breakthroughs it is a complete waste of time to try and convince each other, even by the standards of internet forum argument. So I'm just going to disagree on this.

Incidentally, the result of rolling a die is determined by innumerable factors of momentum, trajectory, the surface it hits, breeze in the air, subtle unevenness of the die, and so many factors that it is beyond our ability to map. Nevertheless it's a matter of physics, and given perfect knowledge we would actually be able to predict the result. Whether the same applies to us is not yet known.

Koshiro

2011-01-13, 11:49 AM

OotS is not Real Life. And as a story, the story is already decided.
Errr... why? Do you know something I don't, namely that not only have all future OotS strips already been drawn and written, but also what's in them?
I'm hoping that the "perfect Oracle" as which the little orange rascal has indeed been presented will be shown - dramatically - to be less than perfect at some point. It would make for a better story than the "it is foretold" unchangeable destiny thing. The obvious candidate for this is Belkar - Durkon being another possibility, Elan if you're feeling nasty. ("But... I was promised a happy ending...:smalleek:)

@ Aldrakan
I do not see what this has to do with my basic point:
Prophecies 'set in stone' are incompatible with a free will and meaningful decisions.
This is what I wrote, and this is exactly how the Oracle appears to work. A deterministic future set in stone. There is no evidence for wobbly "Schrödinger's oracle" or "Fate only makes certain events happen" explanations whatsoever. That was my whole point, which you seem to be talking right past here.

derfenrirwolv

2011-01-13, 12:20 PM

Free will and predestination aren't that hard to reconcile. I don't think anyone really needs a qualification to talk about it or understand it, because i don't think philosophy really helps anyone do anything any more than writing consistent fantasy would.

For free will and predestination to co exist, events have to come from people's choices, which are then delivered from the future, to the oracle. As long as the choice is made, either before or after the oracle knows about it, free will is preserved. The oracle knows about what happened because someone made a choice. That he knows about it "before" its made is irrelevant to the choice still having been made, because the choice STILL determines his knowledge. Before is irrelevant when someone can see forward in time as easily as backwards.

Imagine yourself transported back in time to australia on july 2nd, 1776. You know that tomorrow someone's going to write a certain document. If you paid attention in school you'll even know WHAT words they're going to write. You know that because they CHOSE those words. You're not depriving anyone of their ability to choose simply by existing somewhere in the past. Their choices are what created your knowledge, your knowledge doesn't force their choices.

Firemeier

2011-01-13, 01:47 PM

Imagine yourself transported back in time to australia on july 2nd, 1776. You know that tomorrow someone's going to write a certain document. If you paid attention in school you'll even know WHAT words they're going to write. You know that because they CHOSE those words. You're not depriving anyone of their ability to choose simply by existing somewhere in the past. Their choices are what created your knowledge, your knowledge doesn't force their choices.

But if I'm not mistaken Koshiro refers to the choices of those who have "seen the future". Predestination means that whatever you do on july 2nd, 1776 in the above scenario can not influence the outcome of history. Therefore your choices are meaningless.

OotS is not Real Life.

Thank you, I hadn't realised that. I guess we can call it a day, then.

Prophecies 'set in stone' are incompatible with a free will and meaningful decisions.
This is what I wrote, and this is exactly how the Oracle appears to work. A deterministic future set in stone. There is no evidence for wobbly "Schrödinger's oracle" or "Fate only makes certain events happen" explanations whatsoever. That was my whole point, which you seem to be talking right past here.

The oracle does not act completely in line with that. Let's assume the future is set in stone and will happen exactly as he sees it. He then knows for sure that he will be raised. As you have laid out he then would not need to concern himself with preparations for this; it will happen anyway. He also knows that Belkar with definitely stab him. Why does he then try to talk him out of it by giving convoluted interpretations of the prophecy? His "worth a shot" comment also indicates that he thinks there might be a possibility to avert the future he has seen.
On the other hand he clearly doesn't believe very firmly in changing the future, else he would have taken more efficient measures against being killed.

Kish

2011-01-13, 05:28 PM

Just because you're making his name look uncomfortably close to mine: His name is Koshiro.

Trazoi

2011-01-13, 05:44 PM

Errr... why? Do you know something I don't, namely that not only have all future OotS strips already been drawn and written, but also what's in them?
I can't remember exactly where I read this, but Rich Burlew has said he planned out the major story path during Dorukan's Dungeon. There have been some minor tweaks here and there (Miko's role changed a little) but AFAIK the main path has remained intact. I'm sure whatever fate lies in store for Belkar was already planned when the Oracle gave his prediction, thus making his fate truly inescapable. :smallwink:

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-13, 07:58 PM

I can't remember exactly where I read this, but Rich Burlew has said he planned out the major story path during Dorukan's Dungeon. There have been some minor tweaks here and there (Miko's role changed a little) but AFAIK the main path has remained intact. I'm sure whatever fate lies in store for Belkar was already planned when the Oracle gave his prediction, thus making his fate truly inescapable. :smallwink:

And therein lies the issue. When Rich mapped it out, he probably expected Belkar to be univerally loathed and despised, but instead Belkar and the humor he has brought to the story has made him one of the most liked characters. When they originally wrote Family Matters, Steve Urchel was supposed to make one or two appearances, and that was it, but he became the central character because people liked him. The same goes for Spike, Angel, and Faith on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, as well as Gunn on Angel... And of course there is the guy that was killed in Star Wars Episode 6: Return of the Jedi, who was so beloved by fans that writers not only wrote him a way out of his death, but he was written into Star Wars Episodes 2 and 3 so we could learn his true origin: Boba Fett (a guy who is not only Chaotic Evil, but also helped the badguys throughout almost all of his appearances, and is adored in spite of it).

And perhaps that is the best answer for the question that is the title of this topic: Because the readers like him, which means he isn't the Belkar thar was predicted to die, for that Belkar died out long ago when Belkar became liked by the readers, and the new Belkar was born... Belkar the Boring, Sadistic, Viscious, and Unlikable is dead, Long live the Sexy Shoeless G-d of War, Master of the Stabby-Stab, Flying Deathbringing Runt of Doominess, Sharp of Wit and Blade, Slayer of Kobolds, Halfling Rage Jumping Attack Using, Master Gourmet Chef so great he is also the Secret Creator of Goblin Dan's Secret Special BBQ Recipe, Defender of Kitties, Seeker of Paladin stick-in-rectum-syndrome removal, and master of the mighty SPLORTCH!!! Belkar Bitterleaf.

Swordpriest

2011-01-13, 08:34 PM

Aldrakan

2011-01-13, 08:55 PM

And therein lies the issue. When Rich mapped it out, he probably expected Belkar to be univerally loathed and despised, but instead Belkar and the humor he has brought to the story has made him one of the most liked characters.

Yes, because when Rich wrote the story he wrote a character he expected everyone to hate, and decided to make people read about him for years on end before killing him off.

Nimrod's Son

2011-01-13, 10:40 PM

And of course there is the guy that was killed in Star Wars Episode 6: Return of the Jedi, who was so beloved by fans that writers not only wrote him a way out of his death, but he was written into Star Wars Episodes 2 and 3 so we could learn his true origin: Boba Fett (a guy who is not only Chaotic Evil, but also helped the badguys throughout almost all of his appearances, and is adored in spite of it).
I'm sure we're all well aware of how fond George Lucas is of selling action figures to people. What's the relevance though? Why are you still looking for examples of characters that aren't permanently killed off?

Anyway, as far as the films are concerned, Boba Fett doesn't come back after he is eaten by the Sarlaac. That chain of events was added by a different writer, many years after the fact. We've already been over how recently-hired writers of an ongoing franchise will bring back characters for no other reason than popularity - and how that is irrelevant to OotS.

(Oh, and I would point out that Boba Fett wasn't in Episode III at all.)

And perhaps that is the best answer for the question that is the title of this topic: Because the readers like him, which means he isn't the Belkar thar was predicted to die, for that Belkar died out long ago when Belkar became liked by the readers, and the new Belkar was born... Belkar the Boring, Sadistic, Viscious, and Unlikable is dead, Long live the Sexy Shoeless G-d of War, Master of the Stabby-Stab, Flying Deathbringing Runt of Doominess, Sharp of Wit and Blade, Slayer of Kobolds, Halfling Rage Jumping Attack Using, Master Gourmet Chef so great he is also the Secret Creator of Goblin Dan's Secret Special BBQ Recipe, Defender of Kitties, Seeker of Paladin stick-in-rectum-syndrome removal, and master of the mighty SPLORTCH!!! Belkar Bitterleaf.
Yes, we get it, you like Belkar. Lots of other people don't, though, so his popularity or lack thereof isn't something you can use as an argument.

So, what are your thoughts on Belkar being shown in the afterlife, now we've established that it IS possible he could meet up with the IFCC? :smallsmile:

Warren Dew

2011-01-13, 11:04 PM

This is by the way the basic problem of your entire argument: The Oracle is very much compatible with a determinist world view excluding free will. There are no additional assumptions necessary.
True.

Prophecies 'set in stone' are incompatible with a free will and meaningful decisions.
That's only true if you take an incompatibilist view of free will. There are many compatibilist views of free will that are consistent with a determinist world. I think that from any useful perspective, the oracle's being a perfect predictor is still consistent with free will for at least everyone other than the oracle.

Firemeier

2011-01-14, 02:23 AM

Just because you're making his name look uncomfortably close to mine: His name is Koshiro.

Whatcha talkin' bout? There has never been such a mistake in my post! There is no mind control, cititzen, now go back to work. And remember: Happiness is mandatory! :smallwink:

When Rich mapped it out, he probably expected Belkar to be univerally loathed and despised, but instead Belkar and the humor he has brought to the story has made him one of the most liked characters.

I doubt that. Even if the Giant expected Belkar to be hated by everyone - which I find unlikely - the story was first mapped out before the 100th strip was reached, the oracle doesn't give the prophecy before #331 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). That's plenty of RL time to realise the mistake and plan accordingly.
So, Belkar's fate will likely not depend on his popularity.

martianmister

2011-01-14, 05:58 PM

In first strips, Belkar isn't even really that much evil.

Doug Lampert

2011-01-14, 06:53 PM

In first strips, Belkar isn't even really that much evil.

What can he do that would be "all that much evil" in the Dungeon of Durokon?

Seriously. He's NEVER on frame with anyone but OotS members and evil creatures. Since people demonstrably gave him a pass on attacking evil creatures regardless of his stated motive there's really simply nothing all that evil he can do there except attack the rest of the party. (Which pretty well ends his role in the story, so that's out.)

Go through the strips, see when the first frame that has Belkar and a non-evil NPC on screen at the same time is.

It's the goblin teenager in #94, that's really his first chance.
He's not on frame with the goblin again till 101 (although we can assume he could reach him during that time). But in 101 the rest of the party have to stop him from harvesting the kid's kidneys (allowing the teenager to presumably die when Elan blows up the mountain).

But if he had killed that kid, plenty of people would have said, "not all that evil" since the kid had green skin and fangs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html), and one of the other goblin teenagers was evil

His next chance is strip 132 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html). And he murders three poeple the NEXT PAGE.

He really doesn't waste much time.

Talya

2011-01-14, 08:05 PM

The other is "why do people like Belkar?", which is easy to answer. He's funny. He's likable character in the sense that he often makes the comic more humorous with his remarks and actions, not because he's sympathetic or heroic.

Much in the same way that Jayne Cobb is my favorite character in Firefly, despite being a treacherous, murderous greedy bastard.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-15, 09:23 AM

What can he do that would be "all that much evil" in the Dungeon of Durokon?

Seriously. He's NEVER on frame with anyone but OotS members and evil creatures. Since people demonstrably gave him a pass on attacking evil creatures regardless of his stated motive there's really simply nothing all that evil he can do there except attack the rest of the party. (Which pretty well ends his role in the story, so that's out.)

Go through the strips, see when the first frame that has Belkar and a non-evil NPC on screen at the same time is.

It's the goblin teenager in #94, that's really his first chance.
He's not on frame with the goblin again till 101 (although we can assume he could reach him during that time). But in 101 the rest of the party have to stop him from harvesting the kid's kidneys (allowing the teenager to presumably die when Elan blows up the mountain).

But if he had killed that kid, plenty of people would have said, "not all that evil" since the kid had green skin and fangs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html), and one of the other goblin teenagers was evil

His next chance is strip 132 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html). And he murders three poeple the NEXT PAGE.

He really doesn't waste much time.

Ummm... Belkar isn't the one who tried to abandon Elan... that was Roy. Belkar is a viscious height challenged Reptialian Humanoid and Goblinoid hating Ranger who... oh no, actually takes doing something seriously, so he kills 3 of the worst Barbarians ever to get into the Barbarian Organization, and even the Barbarian Guildmaster admitted they were no loss.

The only possibly innocent blood on Belkar's hands since joining the Order is a Gnome whose story doesn't hold the spice he supposedly was peddling. Months into the Goblin Occupation of Azure City, completely out of season, he suddenly is headed to Azure city to deliver spices to a blantantly Asiatic based culture who would have their own spices and not need some Nordic Spices. He was probably a Kobold in disguise (Otherwise Belkar's flipped knife should have left him enough hp to have a death throw and some dramatic last words).