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Koury
2010-10-20, 01:26 AM
So, I'm starting a game soon (you're fine to be here Keld), and was looking over the final versions of the characters. Everyone is level 5, 32 pt buy, slightly higher WBL (10K, so just a little extra).

I got to the Crusader (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=41753) and... He's got so much staying power, between his two healing maneuvers, his healing stance and Stone Power I just... man.

I'm not even sure what I'm asking for really. I mean, I in no way am out to just kill him, I can do that. I guess I'm after ways to make him feel squeezed, you know? Like a caster low on spells, a psion low on power points or a Fighter who must worry about HP that isn't unlimited. Or a Monk who can't use UMD.

Thoughts? The only weakness I see at all is his low-ish AC. Thing with that is the highest AC in the group is only 20.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-20, 01:33 AM
He has a very low will save. Cause Fear, Hideous Laughter and any other low level will based spell will take him out fast.

He also has low AC, as you mentioned, and is using a wierd build.

He should have much better armor if he's using WBL. Why doesn't he have decent armor and a shield?

~

Also, why does he have 2 Tiger Claw maneuvers? I see the feat he took to gain Burning Blade, but Crusaders don't have access to Tiger Claw maneuvers without taking feats or multiclassing.

Greyfell
2010-10-20, 01:36 AM
I have a similar issue in my campaign with a monk/swordsage based character. I've found that summon swarm is a nice equalizer :) Barring that, if his AC is a bit lowish then simple weight of numbers will leave him feeling like he's pulled his weight. 5-6 mooks attack, 1-2 hit for 3-4 damage each...

Keld Denar
2010-10-20, 01:38 AM
Um...I'm...just not gonna comment here. Don't want to give the enemy any suggestions...

VirOath
2010-10-20, 01:39 AM
He has a very low will save. Cause Fear, Hideous Laughter and any other low level will based spell will take him out fast.

He should have much better armor if he's using WBL. Why doesn't he have decent armor and a shield?

A) He gets a similar bonus to Divine Grace, except he only gets Cha to Will Saves. So his Will saves aren't poor.

B) Most Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances don't have a shield requirement. It may be the iconic way of handing it, but I've run a two handed Crusader without incident. Having a lower AC doesn't mean as much when you can get good DR for the level and have strong healing abilities. Infact hitting is actually more important to your staying power than a good AC as you don't get any healing or bonuses when you miss.

Nevermind all of that. Didn't realize there was a link to the character in question. I was making general comments, that don't apply here.

Koury
2010-10-20, 01:40 AM
He has a very low will save. Cause Fear, Hideous Laughter and any other low level will based spell will take him out fast. Good, actually. How in the world did I overlook his +1 Will. :smallconfused:


He should have much better armor if he's using WBL. Why doesn't he have decent armor and a shield? No shield because hes TWFing. Armor is decent though, +1 Mithral Brestplate? He wanted to be mobile and so wants light armor.


Also, why does he have 2 Tiger Claw maneuvers? I see the feat he took to gain Burning Blade, but Crusaders don't have access to Tiger Claw maneuvers without taking feats or multiclassing. Houseruled on to the Crusader schools available. He mostly wanted Battle Jump. Mobility and all.

Koury
2010-10-20, 01:47 AM
I have a similar issue in my campaign with a monk/swordsage based character. I've found that summon swarm is a nice equalizer :) Barring that, if his AC is a bit lowish then simple weight of numbers will leave him feeling like he's pulled his weight. 5-6 mooks attack, 1-2 hit for 3-4 damage each... He can Stone Power for 10 temp HP all the time, plus heal himself very well for this level. He doesn't care about 3-4, or even 15-20 damage. 10 into SP, 3d6+5 healed from a strike (every 3rd round-ish), +2 HP stance. Leftover dumps into Steely Resolve and gets healed soon. :smalleek:


Um...I'm...just not gonna comment here. Don't want to give the enemy any suggestions... :smallbiggrin: Feel free to pipe up. Not like you need a tank in front of you, right? You can totally handle frontline fighting. :smallwink:


A) He gets a similar bonus to Divine Grace, except he only gets Cha to Will Saves. So his Will saves aren't poor. His Cha is 10 for now. He's gonna get a +Cha item eventually, he just has no money for now. Hes also gonna retrain Burning Blade eventually for Moment of Perfect Mind.

Keld Denar
2010-10-20, 01:54 AM
He can Stone Power for 10 temp HP all the time, plus heal himself very well for this level. He doesn't care about 3-4, or even 15-20 damage. 10 into SP, 3d6+5 healed from a strike (every 3rd round-ish), +2 HP stance. Leftover dumps into Steely Resolve and gets healed soon. :smalleek:
Do note that you have to HIT with those manevuers to get healing. If he's dumping 5 AB into Stone Power, thats his entire BAB at level 5. That leaves him with what, a +3-5 or so to hit on a non-touch attack? Yea, that'll be rough.



:smallbiggrin: Feel free to pipe up. Not like you need a tank in front of you, right? You can totally handle frontline fighting. :smallwink:

Yea, my idea of "front line fighting" is moving up, delivering a strike, and Dim Hopping behind someone big and dangerous...like this crusader fellow...

Toptomcat
2010-10-20, 02:17 AM
Lock him down with special combat maneuvers. Have groups of enemies dogpile him with grapple attempts, bull rush him into places where his durability isn't doing the party any good by protecting the rear-liners like the casters, have dudes with two-handed weapons disarm him of his light/one-handed weapons, trip him. This doesn't have to be done by specialized fighter-types with the relevant feats, either: unless he's a Combat Reflexes type, sheer weight of numbers works just as well since he can only AoO one attempt at a combat maneuver per round.

And since he's a Battle Jump type he'll be charging often. Polearms that can be set against a charge in the hands of big, beefy warrior types will work well.

Also, as a ToB type he's unlikely to have much ranged capacity. Increased initial encounter distances or complicated terrain (beseiging an enemy castle, being shot at from significant elevation in the mountains) can mess up any charger/melee type's schtick in general.

Of course, all this should only really show up either in contexts where you're having multiple fights against dudes of the same group, so they have time to identify his strengths and weaknesses and develop tactics to overcome him, or when he's fighting smart, veteran warrior types who can see what he's doing and quickly, flexibly deploy counter-tactics. He should get ample opportunity to show off the capabilities he spent so much of his resources to acquire- don't have tactics that will negate his specialties show up in every fight or he'll rightly feel cheated.

The_Snark
2010-10-20, 04:01 AM
He can Stone Power for 10 temp HP all the time, plus heal himself very well for this level. He doesn't care about 3-4, or even 15-20 damage. 10 into SP, 3d6+5 healed from a strike (every 3rd round-ish), +2 HP stance. Leftover dumps into Steely Resolve and gets healed soon. :smalleek:

Nitpick: He can only use Stone Power on a round where he uses a Stone Dragon strike (or an ordinary attack/full attack). It's not compatible with strikes from other schools; if he wants to heal he's going to have to go a round without temporary HP.

My advice? Tough melee monsters. Yes, it's playing to his strengths, but that doesn't mean you can't challenge him. A lot of melee-oriented monsters can do impressive damage for their CR; ogres and giants are good choices at these levels. This challenges him (even he'll start to feel a hill giant dealing 20-40 damage each round) while making him feel useful, rather than knocking him out of the fight by targeting his Will save.

Koury
2010-10-20, 04:12 AM
Do note that you have to HIT with those manevuers to get healing. If he's dumping 5 AB into Stone Power, thats his entire BAB at level 5. That leaves him with what, a +3-5 or so to hit on a non-touch attack? Yea, that'll be rough. Mm, I'm less sure of that then you seem to be. Average AC of CR 5 monsters is only 17. Needing a 12 to hit is not that rough. I mean, I'm not using just by-the-book baddies, obviously (after all, the Swordsage is pulling a +15 AB), but still.


Lock him down with special combat maneuvers. Have groups of enemies dogpile him with grapple attempts, bull rush him into places where his durability isn't doing the party any good by protecting the rear-liners like the casters, have dudes with two-handed weapons disarm him of his light/one-handed weapons, trip him. This doesn't have to be done by specialized fighter-types with the relevant feats, either: unless he's a Combat Reflexes type, sheer weight of numbers works just as well since he can only AoO one attempt at a combat maneuver per round.

And since he's a Battle Jump type he'll be charging often. Polearms that can be set against a charge in the hands of big, beefy warrior types will work well.

Also, as a ToB type he's unlikely to have much ranged capacity. Increased initial encounter distances or complicated terrain (beseiging an enemy castle, being shot at from significant elevation in the mountains) can mess up any charger/melee type's schtick in general.

Of course, all this should only really show up either in contexts where you're having multiple fights against dudes of the same group, so they have time to identify his strengths and weaknesses and develop tactics to overcome him, or when he's fighting smart, veteran warrior types who can see what he's doing and quickly, flexibly deploy counter-tactics. He should get ample opportunity to show off the capabilities he spent so much of his resources to acquire- don't have tactics that will negate his specialties show up in every fight or he'll rightly feel cheated.

All solid advice. I do believe he'll end up with Combat Reflexes sooner then later, but yeah. Also, the advice on not constantly countering him, though I like to think I know that all ready, is duly noted regardless. :smallsmile:

I do feel, looking at his sheet, that Crusaders deserve their rep as top tier tanks though.

Malbordeus
2010-10-20, 04:20 AM
not to mention skeletal hydras, even 20 hd skeletons/zombies are only CR 6, with his low AC even ghouls and wights would really punish him too.

things like glitterdust and grease would agravate him a lot too. :P would be funny to grease both his swords...

Koury
2010-10-20, 05:11 AM
Nitpick: He can only use Stone Power on a round where he uses a Stone Dragon strike (or an ordinary attack/full attack). It's not compatible with strikes from other schools; if he wants to heal he's going to have to go a round without temporary HP.

My advice? Tough melee monsters. Yes, it's playing to his strengths, but that doesn't mean you can't challenge him. A lot of melee-oriented monsters can do impressive damage for their CR; ogres and giants are good choices at these levels. This challenges him (even he'll start to feel a hill giant dealing 20-40 damage each round) while making him feel useful, rather than knocking him out of the fight by targeting his Will save.

That seems to be good advice also. I mean, according to my numbers he can solo an Ettin currently, but its a tough fight.

[The Fight] Fell (60 HP) charges with Battle Leader's Charge. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Hit. Deal 1d6+13. Ettin takes 16 damage.

Ettin (49 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 16. Hit/Miss. Deal 2d6+6. Fell takes 13 damage.

Fell (57 HP; 10 in pool) uses Burning Blade and Stone Bones. 1d20+12 vs AC18. Hit for 2d6+10. Ettin takes 15 damage, Fell heals 2 damage. His pool empties.

Ettin (34 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Hit/Hit. Deal 4d6+12. Fell takes 21 damage.

Fell (38 HP; 10 in pool) uses Revitalizing Strike. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Hit. Deal 1d6+5. Ettin takes 8 damage. Fell heals 3d6+7. Heal 7 after negating pool.

Ettin (26 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Hit/Miss. Deal 2d6+6. Fell takes 13 damage.

Fell (42; 10 in pool) is greanted maneuvers. He uses Burning Blade and Stone Bones. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Miss. His pool empties.

Ettin (26 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Miss/Hit. Deal 2d6+6. Fell takes 13 damage.

Fell (29; 10 in pool) uses Revitalizing Strike. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Hit. Deal 1d6+5. Ettin takes 8 damage. Fell heals 3d6+7. Heal 7 after negating pool.

Ettin (18 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Hit/Miss. Deal 2d6+6. Fell takes 13 damage.

Fell (33; 10 in pool) uses max Stone Power with a full attack. 1d20+5/5 vs AC 18. Hit/Miss. Deal 1d6+5 damage. Ettin takes 8 damage. Pool drains into Temp HP.

Ettin (10 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Hit/Hit. Deal 4d6+12. Fell takes 26 damage

Fell (17 HP; 10 in pool) is granted maneuvers. He uses Burning Blade and Stone Bones. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Hit. Deal 2d6+10. His pool empties.

Ettin is down. Fell is sitting at 7 HP.


So yeah. Though once you add in, you know, allies, it gets easier. :smallamused:

Aotrs Commander
2010-10-20, 06:15 AM
That seems to be good advice also. I mean, according to my numbers he can solo an Ettin currently, but its a tough fight.

So yeah. Though once you add in, you know, allies, it gets easier. :smallamused:

To be fair, ettins are hardly that hard to kill. A while back, I worked out that a single unoptimised 6th level fighter (with level-appropriate gear) stood a fairly good chance against an ettin on his own, on average. Really, a higher-points buy crusader ought to be able to do better (even if the optimisation is not great), just by virtue of being a stronger class out of the gate.

Cainen
2010-10-20, 06:19 AM
He has a serious chance of losing that fight - run another sim of it and see what changes. Don't worry about it.

Chrono22
2010-10-20, 06:24 AM
Have him fight something that's tougher than him, but also more deadly. Hydras work.

tyckspoon
2010-10-20, 08:26 AM
No shield because hes TWFing. Armor is decent though, +1 Mithral Brestplate? He wanted to be mobile and so wants light armor.


I suppose you can be thankful for this, at least- that's a very inefficient choice of armor for the level, taking up half his money. His AC and his attack bonuses could both be a few points higher with more careful use of the GP.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-20, 08:40 AM
That seems to be good advice also. I mean, according to my numbers he can solo an Ettin currently, but its a tough fight.

[The Fight] Fell (60 HP) charges with Battle Leader's Charge. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Hit. Deal 1d6+13. Ettin takes 16 damage.

Ettin (49 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 16. Hit/Miss. Deal 2d6+6. Fell takes 13 damage.

Fell (57 HP; 10 in pool) uses Burning Blade and Stone Bones. 1d20+12 vs AC18. Hit for 2d6+10. Ettin takes 15 damage, Fell heals 2 damage. His pool empties.

Ettin (34 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Hit/Hit. Deal 4d6+12. Fell takes 21 damage.

Fell (38 HP; 10 in pool) uses Revitalizing Strike. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Hit. Deal 1d6+5. Ettin takes 8 damage. Fell heals 3d6+7. Heal 7 after negating pool.

Ettin (26 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Hit/Miss. Deal 2d6+6. Fell takes 13 damage.

Fell (42; 10 in pool) is greanted maneuvers. He uses Burning Blade and Stone Bones. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Miss. His pool empties.

Ettin (26 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Miss/Hit. Deal 2d6+6. Fell takes 13 damage.

Fell (29; 10 in pool) uses Revitalizing Strike. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Hit. Deal 1d6+5. Ettin takes 8 damage. Fell heals 3d6+7. Heal 7 after negating pool.

Ettin (18 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Hit/Miss. Deal 2d6+6. Fell takes 13 damage.

Fell (33; 10 in pool) uses max Stone Power with a full attack. 1d20+5/5 vs AC 18. Hit/Miss. Deal 1d6+5 damage. Ettin takes 8 damage. Pool drains into Temp HP.

Ettin (10 HP) full attacks. 1d20+12/7 vs AC 18. Hit/Hit. Deal 4d6+12. Fell takes 26 damage

Fell (17 HP; 10 in pool) is granted maneuvers. He uses Burning Blade and Stone Bones. 1d20+12 vs AC 18. Hit. Deal 2d6+10. His pool empties.

Ettin is down. Fell is sitting at 7 HP.


So yeah. Though once you add in, you know, allies, it gets easier. :smallamused:



Alright, there's a serious problem I'm noticing here.

Why is your Ettin getting only two attacks? Ettins get four attacks. You get the +12/+7 twice because of his Superior Two Weapon Fighting. That 7 hp he had left? Yeah, it's gone, and that Crusader is a red stain on the floor.

A second factor that you overlooked is that Fell rolled nigh-max HP. 60/65 possible (5d10+15). The Ettin gets 10d8+20, and if given proportionally the same benefit of high hp rolls for your CR, the Ettin has something like 92 hp. 92/100 possible. Let's have a fair hypothetical fight, here :smallwink:

If, for some odd reason, you find that the MM entry is ambiguous, here is an official reference stating very explicitly that they get 4 attacks: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040312a


With two morningstars that can strike twice each for an average of 13 points per hit, the creature's full attack can reduce even a raging barbarian to tears

So yeah, not only can you squash him with an Ettin... you can squeeze him with most of the traditional melee squeezes. Screw up his movement with control spells (or just keep the enemies out of reach, such as a manticore flying around overhead). Use things that are hard to hit by conventional means like ethereal and swarmy types. Throw a Will save at him once in a blue moon if you want to make him really hurt. I mean seriously, with saves like that he's just asking for a quick death unless his teammates are covering that weakness for him.

__________________________________________________ _


Needing a 12 to hit is not that rough Oh it's pretty rough. That means you miss and do nothing 55% of the time. With a failure rate like that you might as well be using save or loses.

With a +1 will save, he has more than a 55% chance to just plain lose to a decent spell thrown in his general direction.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 08:53 AM
Nitpick: He can only use Stone Power on a round where he uses a Stone Dragon strike (or an ordinary attack/full attack). It's not compatible with strikes from other schools; if he wants to heal he's going to have to go a round without temporary HP.He heals from the Martial Spirit stance, which I suppose he's after with the TWF, since it heals every time you hit.

An interesting take on crusader, I must admit. Though there's a reason cookie cutter ain't shaped like this Fell fella.

Lev
2010-10-20, 09:00 AM
CON DAMAGE


And then threaten more of it.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-20, 09:03 AM
No seriously though. The Ettin owned him, but Koury's math was wrong.

This is good news for Koury, because he now knows that he totally can challenge his player with an Ettin. Or any of a variety of melee threats, like monstrous scorpions.

IncoherentEssay
2010-10-20, 09:09 AM
Since it wasn't suggested yet, Wights. Ghouls. Vampire Spawn. Carrion Crawlers. In essence, stuff that he doesn't want to get hit by because they bypass the buckets of hp. Wight tapped you five times? Your out.
Another thing to consider is mirror-matching him: throw a larger fight at the party and tie him down with something equally hard to bring down. It doesn't actually have to hurt him, just keep him still. Maybe have a trained Ape give him a 'hug' :smallwink:?
There's quite a bit of stuff to give him a headache, just don't overdo it.

Myth
2010-10-20, 09:14 AM
Have a swarm creature attack him, preferably one with ability damage.

Have him get hit with Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Reduce Person, Unluck, Glitterdust, Confusion etc.

Cast stuff at his gear, like Heat Metal, Backbiter, Shrink Item on his mundane gear (like a saddle for example).

Have lots of level 1 enemies pelt him with ranged weapons and poisoned arrows.

Have a good Rogue NPC use Sleight of Hand to slip him some poison or a cursed item.

If all else fails, call the Dire Bears.

Duke of URL
2010-10-20, 09:39 AM
Note that Crusaders don't necessarily want very high AC. They actually need to get hit once in a while to make use of steely resolve / furious counterstrike, preferably paired with a maneuver and/or stance that heals the amount in the delayed damage pool (and them some, if necessary).

As for how to challenge a Crusader...

* Save or lose, especially Will (or worse: lose, no save).
* Ability damage (though preferably not from poison/disease as they have excellent Fort saves).
* High burst damage (see the thread on scythes) -- attacks that generally don't hit hard, but can crit for very, very hard.
* Distance (if they can't reach it, they can't hit it)

jiriku
2010-10-20, 09:50 AM
Xavier's figuring his attack bonus wrong in the attack bonus workspace. His correct attack bonus should be 5 (bab) + 3 (Dex) + 1 (WF) +1 (ss) = +10. However, that's still a pretty unimpressive bonus considering he's planning to use TWF+Stone Power.

I really don't see how this guy is scary. I mean, he'll deal a little melee damage every now and then, but he's hardly a dynamo. He'll struggle against incorporeal creatures, swarms, skeletons, flyers, archers firing from any kind of position that takes a Climb check to reach, any sort of battlefield control magic, or...half a dozen other things. He's not a bad character by any means, but off the top of my head, I can think of ten opponents of CR3 or less that would give this guy a hard time and make him sweat.

Koury
2010-10-20, 10:01 AM
Alright, there's a serious problem I'm noticing here.

Why is your Ettin getting only two attacks? Ettins get four attacks. You get the +12/+7 twice because of his Superior Two Weapon Fighting. That 7 hp he had left? Yeah, it's gone, and that Crusader is a red stain on the floor. :smalleek: I'd never have picked that up, honestly. They chose an odd way of writing his full attack line.


A second factor that you overlooked is that Fell rolled nigh-max HP. 60/65 possible (5d10+15). The Ettin gets 10d8+20, and if given proportionally the same benefit of high hp rolls for your CR, the Ettin has something like 92 hp. 92/100 possible. Let's have a fair hypothetical fight, here :smallwink: He has the Quick trait, so he actually does have max. Everyone got max HP. I didn't max the ettin because I wasn't thinking of it as a boss fight. I also didn't build it on 32 points for the same reason.

But yeah, I'm still surprised by ettins getting four attacks.

To everyone else, thats a lot of stuff to do to keep him held under wraps. :smallredface:

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-20, 10:11 AM
:smalleek: I'd never have picked that up, honestly. They chose an odd way of writing his full attack line. You have to pay attention when reading the monster entries :smallsmile:


He has the Quick trait, so he actually does have max. Everyone got max HP. I didn't max the ettin because I wasn't thinking of it as a boss fight. I also didn't build it on 32 points for the same reason. Right then. In that case, to make a fair comparison of "is this build really stronger than a monster of X CR" you need to take that into account, as well as the improved stat array he's got.


To everyone else, thats a lot of stuff to do to keep him held under wraps. :smallredface:

Yeah, I think you're giving your player's character's toughness a lot more credit than it's worth. He's not really that strong.

To repeat a few I mentioned...
-Will saves will END him. And any guy with a +1 will save (that isn't benefiting from alternative special defenses like being Mindless or having the party counter it for him) is going to go "@#$%, it's a low level spellcaster!"
-Battlefield control spells and effects. "@#$%, this fog is solid!" "@#$%, he tripped me from 10 feet away!"
-Keeping out of melee range. "@#$%, it's a horse archer! @#$%, that guy's flying!"
-Burst damage. "@#$%, that guy has a scythe!"
-Difficult types for melee attacks to target. "@#$%, it's an ethereal swarm!"
-Mean monsters that you don't want to get in melee range of. "@#$%, it's a monstrous scorpion!"
...and the list goes on... the list of things that threaten him is pretty large.

Dralnu
2010-10-20, 10:22 AM
Be happy that he's clearly not trying to optimize. Spiked chain enlarged trippers working towards thicket of blades, now that's annoying!

I think people have covered a ton of challenges and you should be fine now, but here's another fun one: Dominate Person. Specify that you want him to kill his former allies as effectively as possible. Turning the tank against his squishy allies is always comedy gold!

Keld Denar
2010-10-20, 11:04 AM
Especially since most Crusader maneuvers can heal others who are near you (within 10'). Thus, you could convince a dominated Crusader that you are gravely injured and that you need healing. Your new friend would likely use his healing maneuvers exclusively on you.

Leon
2010-10-20, 11:06 AM
Do more DpR than he has HpR.
Everything counts in Large amounts.

jiriku
2010-10-20, 11:32 AM
To repeat a few I mentioned...
-Will saves will END him. And any guy with a +1 will save (that isn't benefiting from alternative special defenses like being Mindless or having the party counter it for him) is going to go "@#$%, it's a low level spellcaster!"
-Battlefield control spells and effects. "@#$%, this fog is solid!" "@#$%, he tripped me from 10 feet away!"
-Keeping out of melee range. "@#$%, it's a horse archer! @#$%, that guy's flying!"
-Burst damage. "@#$%, that guy has a scythe!"
-Difficult types for melee attacks to target. "@#$%, it's an ethereal swarm!"
-Mean monsters that you don't want to get in melee range of. "@#$%, it's a monstrous scorpion!"
...and the list goes on... the list of things that threaten him is pretty large.

Agreed. And while effects like solid fog or dominate person aren't realistic challenges for a level 5 character, he'd struggle against many encounters that are realistic for his level, such as:

a small clutch of shadow asps,
a handful of shadows,
a couple of owlbear skeletons,
some archers on light warhorses,
a low-level druid or wizard,
a flock of stirges,
a cleric with an ice axe,
archers standing on the battlements of a castle,
kobolds hurling dither bombs, acid flasks, and tanglefoot from murder holes in the ceiling,
lacedons in the bottom of a small pond,
an NPC aristocrat who must be negotiated with,
an NPC expert bodyguard with good Spot/Listen who has to be evaded through stealth, or...
so many other things.

You should easily be able to challenge this character again and again and again without stretching verisimilitude or even working especially hard.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-20, 11:46 AM
Agreed. And while effects like solid fog or dominate person aren't realistic challenges for a level 5 character

1) I didn't suggest Dominate Person, that was someone else. I suggested "will saves." There are plenty of will saves that will screw over a character completely in the realm of level 1-3 spells.

2) As for Solid Fog, that's something a level 7 (sometimes lower) foe is going to cast at you, and it is not at all uncommon for a level 5 party to fight something at CR7. CR5 is just an average, "easy" encounter that you get 4 or 5 times a day. It is not at all unreasonable to expect to get hit by a level 4 spell when you're a level 5 character. So yes it is absolutely a realistic challenge for a level 5 character.

That said, other things work just as well, such as Web. There are tons of good battlefield control spells.


kobolds hurling dither bombs, acid flasks, and tanglefoot from murder holes in the ceiling, This is always fun. I love my kobolds. But what are dither bombs?


a couple of owlbear skeletons Summonable as a level 2 spell, by the way. You can just make a few of them appear instantly right in his face. :smallwink:


a cleric with an ice axe Clerics are scary :smalleek:

Thrawn183
2010-10-20, 12:13 PM
I don't know if I could resist throwing a mind flayer at the party. :smallcool:

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-20, 12:24 PM
I don't know if I could resist throwing a mind flayer at the party. :smallcool:

With a +3 initiative, +1 will save, and no stealth / detection capabilities to speak of, this guy stands very little chance against a Mind Flayer. He has a 75% chance of getting stunned in a surprise round. And then losing initiative just to add insult to injury (or giving the Mind Flayer another 75% chance to incapacitate him). And then becoming Mindless. At least he won't have to worry about will saves anymore. :smalltongue:

He'd better hope his party can bail him out.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 12:38 PM
For future reference, when doing test fights it's most efficient to work by averages. Take the damage the attack does, reduce damage reduction (if any) and multiply by the average chance to hit. That should give you rather accurate average result of the fight, though of course, dice are a fickle mistress.

Koury
2010-10-20, 12:44 PM
I took strict average damage, for what thats worth.

EDIT: I did roll for his maneuvers granted though.

Dimers
2010-10-20, 11:18 PM
Not a lot to add that hasn't already been mentioned, but ...

suffocation and drowning don't care about HP
grapple, trip, disarm and so forth can keep him useless
some spells cause HP damage and have a Will save -- the inflict line, for example


And of course his big weakness is that he won't make much of a "tank" in the sense of keeping monsters' attention. Even a spot of cunning would tell a critter to stop biting the guy who won't stay bitten, and go bite the softer-looking guy who seems to be connected to the other end of the fire that keeps burning your fur. This guy doesn't do a pile of damage, doesn't appear to cause status effects, doesn't improve somehow if a monster focuses on someone else. So he'll survive, sure, but his friends will often have trouble if they rely on him to enforce the front line.

dgnslyr
2010-10-21, 12:07 AM
Fire. Kill everything with fire.

AslanCross
2010-10-21, 07:04 AM
Deal enough damage and his damage pool will eventually stop absorbing. Besides, he takes the damage next turn. Oblige him in his tank role and you'll put him on the spot.

Also, the dwarf crusader one of my players ran became the charm and dominate lightning rod.

jiriku
2010-10-21, 08:11 AM
I love my kobolds. But what are dither bombs?

A dither bomb is a kobold-specialty alchemical item introduced in Races of the Dragon. Essentially, it's a car battery inside a bowling ball -- if car batteries exploded shortly after being shaken vigorously. The kobold spends a round shaking it, then tosses it, and a short (random) time later, it explodes, dealing HIGHLY variable amounts of acid damage over an area.

I am fond of having several kobolds with dither bombs hide near a pit trap, then rush from hiding as soon as a PC falls in the pit and toss their dither bombs in the pit with him. Bonus points if there's an acid-immune monster of some kind at the bottom of the pit.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-21, 08:14 AM
A dither bomb is a kobold-specialty alchemical item introduced in Races of the Dragon. Essentially, it's a car battery inside a bowling ball -- if car batteries exploded shortly after being shaken vigorously. The kobold spends a round shaking it, then tosses it, and a short (random) time later, it explodes, dealing HIGHLY variable amounts of acid damage over an area.

I am fond of having several kobolds with dither bombs hide near a pit trap, then rush from hiding as soon as a PC falls in the pit and toss their dither bombs in the pit with him. Bonus points if there's an acid-immune monster of some kind at the bottom of the pit.

While we're talking about kobold items, see the Enveloping Pit; it's a relic item of Kurtulmak, and the price isn't too bad at 3600gp. Imagine what clever kobolds could do with a 50x10 foot version of a portable hole.