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Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 08:36 AM
I recently took to learn about using a staff in real life, and I thought "Hey it would be cool to make a character that uses a staff as his weapon of choice)

My first though was a gish who uses greater might wallop on the staff, maybe with some levels of unarmed swordsage to pseuco cheat a bit (using a staff enchanted like an scorpion Kama [MI] to have my unarmed damage as a base before applying Greater might wallop)

What do you think about this? are there better ways to do this? should I jujst cry myself to sleep since my idea is doomed to failure?

Telonius
2010-10-20, 08:43 AM
Take a standard melee build and change the damage from 2d6 slashing to 1d6 Bludgeoning. That's really the biggest difference. Yeah, it's less, but not catastrophically so. It does open up a few feat and item possibilities since you're doing Bludgeoning rather than Slashing.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 08:47 AM
I want to make something different, I knw I could make the standard charger buils (PA+Shock Trooper+Leap Attack), but to me, staff-fighting is more of a pseudo-defender style coupled with more mobilty, it is out manoubering foes, and striking in difficult to defend places...

Now that I put it that way, a Standar Swordsage focused on setting sun, shadow hand and diamond mind might work well for that... I could get a custom item of Greater mighty wallop to increase my damage output (or get a minor schema and put some cross-class ranks in UMD).

Person_Man
2010-10-20, 08:54 AM
Staff Supernova combo:

Eilservs School feat: When you strike a creature with a magic staff, it deals +1 damage for every 10 charges it contains. And if you strike a creature with both ends, you can activate one of the spells in the staff (on your target or on you) as a Swift action. Drow of the Underdark.
Spell Storing weapon enhancement: Delivers any 3rd level or lower spell on a successful attack. Quarterstaff is a double weapon, so you can enchant each side, storing 2 spells. DMG.
Arcane Strike feat: As a free action burn a spell for an untyped bonus to hit equal to the spell level sacrificed and 1d4 * spell level bonus damage, for 1 round. Complete Warrior.


Google up your favorite Abjurant Champion or Gish build, use the above with TWF and pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), and you should have no trouble delivering 3 spells on the first round of combat and one spell each round thereafter, all without giving up a full attack, and with potentially huge bonuses to-hit and damage.

Amphetryon
2010-10-20, 08:58 AM
This is just an initial thought, not fleshed out:

Ranger 2/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage +1/Bloodclaw Master 3/Duraak'ash 2/Master of Nine 5.

Duraak'ash is in Dragonmarked.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 08:59 AM
Ok...from the top of my head

Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Wizard 3/Swordsage 2/Eldritch Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794) 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794) +7

perhaps? (I don't intend to get 9 level spells with this build BTW)

Edit: I'll check that class from dragonmark, thanks Amphetryon; but I don't see what does Bloodclaw master does for the build AFAIR staff isn't a a tiger claw weapon (I am AFB right now and I will check ASAP)

Greenish
2010-10-20, 09:06 AM
How about variant druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) with Shillelagh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm)? That ought to work on lower levels, then dip some swordsage. It's a shame that the only martial adept/divine casting mix PrC requires turning.

Alternatively, straight swordsage can probably get quite some mileage out of a quarterstaff.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 09:09 AM
How about variant druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) with Shillelagh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm)? That ought to work on lower levels, then dip some swordsage. It's a shame that the only martial adept/divine casting mix PrC requires turning.

Alternatively, straight swordsage can probably get quite some mileage out of a quarterstaff.

Maybe, I am glad that variant losses wildshape, otherwise If I did go druid, would be really tempted to just wildshape into a bear and then maul people with my claws (Nature check DC 25?:smalltongue:). Though maybe...wilshaping into a monkey I could be Master Monkey from Kung-Fu Panda.....so tempting >.<

Amphetryon
2010-10-20, 09:16 AM
BCM might not be ideal - like I said, it was off the top of my head. It's the obvious TWF option from Bo9S, so that's why I thought of it first.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 09:18 AM
BCM might not be ideal - like I said, it was off the top of my head. It's the obvious TWF option from Bo9S, so that's why I thought of it first.Quarterstaff is not Tiger Claw weapon, if my memory serves, and many of BCM's class features require Tiger Claw weapons.

Duraak'ash 2 doesn't give much, for the two feats you'll have to sink to enter.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 09:22 AM
hmmm I am happy this idea is viable...now I need a game that I can use this idea in.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 09:47 AM
Damn the school feat, mentions charges, otherwise runestaffs, would be extremely nice .....

true_shinken
2010-10-20, 09:53 AM
I really like Person_Man's suggestion, I'd go with that.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 10:00 AM
Only problem I see, is that most staffs are extremely expensive, and I don't recall a staff with good offensive spells or good buffs (might be wrong, since they are expensive I usually don't pay attention to them), but OTHO there is always asking for a custom staff...

After a quick search through the SRD, the most useful staff for this idea would be a transmutation staff, wich haves Alter self, polymorph, blink, expeditous retreat, baleful polymorph and dissintigrate, but it is quite expensive (65,000 GP)

true_shinken
2010-10-20, 10:09 AM
Only problem I see, is that most staffs are extremely expensive, and I don't recall a staff with good offensive spells or good buffs (might be wrong, since they are expensive I usually don't pay attention to them), but OTHO there is always asking for a custom staff...

After a quick search through the SRD, the most useful staff for this idea would be a transmutation staff, wich haves Alter self, polymorph, blink, expeditous retreat, baleful polymorph and dissintigrate, but it is quite expensive (65,000 GP)

Hm, make a custom staff?
Also, remember you can get a partially charged staff since you are begining above first level.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 10:30 AM
Hm, make a custom staff?
Also, remember you can get a partially charged staff since you are begining above first level.

Yeah that is an option, but really this is just a random thought, currently I have no game in which to play this character.

I need to check the rules on making staffs.

Achernar
2010-10-20, 11:03 AM
Quick Staff from CW comes to mind. Bonuses to AC with a quarterstaff are nice. You have to take Combat Expertise (nice), Dodge (bleh), TWF (you will anyway) and weapon focus (Qstaff) as prereqs, but you gain 2 more dodge to AC when you use combat expertise (lose 2 points to hit, gain 4 dodge to AC), which is pretty nice. Dodge bonuses stack with each other, too, so you could do very well with a monk dip for WIS to AC and magic "armor" effects.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 12:17 PM
Druids and Clerics get some interesting, Staff-specific spells (Entangling Staff, Shillelagh, Brambles/Spikes off the top of my head); you could try that. Heck, Druid could get Wis to AC and all that jazz.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 01:09 PM
Now I just need a way to get monks unarmed strike progression.... so I can have my Scorpion Staff....

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 01:22 PM
Now I just need a way to get monks unarmed strike progression.... so I can have my Scorpion Staff....

Sacred Fist? Honestly, Monk 2/Druid 4/Sacred Fist -> could work out in a terrific fashion.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-20, 01:24 PM
Sacred Fist? Honestly, Monk 2/Druid 4/Sacred Fist -> could work out in a terrific fashion.

Complete Divine or champion?

also why monk 2? do Sacre fist requires a a feat that you can get as a monk 2?

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-20, 01:26 PM
If you want the defense angle, you could take Two-Weapon Defense, although then you have Two-Weapon Fighting sitting around doing nothing.

Alternatively, enhance one end with +5 Defending.

Remember: Staffs are double weapons. A lot of people seem to forget that.

Melayl
2010-10-20, 10:54 PM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155397) had some good ideas as well.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 10:59 PM
Complete Divine or champion?

also why monk 2? do Sacre fist requires a a feat that you can get as a monk 2?

Monk 2 gets you the easiest access to the feats required, yes. Also, Evasion doesn't hurt. Basically, the class is written for Monk 2 entry making it a bit of a pain to enter with Monk 1, especially without Fractional BAB.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-20, 11:01 PM
I recently took to learn about using a staff in real life, and I thought "Hey it would be cool to make a character that uses a staff as his weapon of choice)

My first though was a gish who uses greater might wallop on the staff, maybe with some levels of unarmed swordsage to pseuco cheat a bit (using a staff enchanted like an scorpion Kama [MI] to have my unarmed damage as a base before applying Greater might wallop)

What do you think about this? are there better ways to do this? should I jujst cry myself to sleep since my idea is doomed to failure?

Go Druid, use Shillelagh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm)and Spellstaff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellstaff.htm). You could even make a monk.druid that only takes a few druid and then uses the shillelagh quarterstaff to flurry with. Then you get Monk~Wisdom AC, a Huge quarterstaff (which is magic) and most of your monk levels intact.

If going druid/monk do not go for spellstaff, just use the shillelagh.

ffone
2010-10-21, 01:44 AM
Staff Supernova combo:

Eilservs School feat: When you strike a creature with a magic staff, it deals +1 damage for every 10 charges it contains. And if you strike a creature with both ends, you can activate one of the spells in the staff (on your target or on you) as a Swift action. Drow of the Underdark.
Spell Storing weapon enhancement: Delivers any 3rd level or lower spell on a successful attack. Quarterstaff is a double weapon, so you can enchant each side, storing 2 spells. DMG.
Arcane Strike feat: As a free action burn a spell for an untyped bonus to hit equal to the spell level sacrificed and 1d4 * spell level bonus damage, for 1 round. Complete Warrior.


Google up your favorite Abjurant Champion or Gish build, use the above with TWF and pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), and you should have no trouble delivering 3 spells on the first round of combat and one spell each round thereafter, all without giving up a full attack, and with potentially huge bonuses to-hit and damage.

Neat. And very thematic (staff+spells).

Shivering Touch makes an absurd Spell Storing spell. Especially if you can deliver two in one round (~21 Dex damage, will paralyze most things) and use more cheese like Wraithstrike (attacks are touch attack for one round) to make almost-sure both hit.

Eldariel
2010-10-21, 02:33 AM
You could also get a Ki Focus Quarterstaff to deliver very, very potent (base Druid) Stunning Fists with it. And hell, thanks to the Monk-levels you can get Improved Trip and Combat Expertise without the Int prerequisites. Then you could take Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) and switch Rage for Whirling Frenzy (seems pretty appropriate with Quarterstaff and very efficient when two-handing it) and, if you feel so inclined (there's also Lion's Pounce, of course), Fast Movement for Pounce.

Then you could trade Wildshape for whatever too. E.g. Aspect of Nature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature). And I recall a weapon property exists that allows dealing unarmed die of damage with a weapon. If so and if I can locate it, that would be a great combo with Shillelagh, if going Sacred Fist.


And why not, you could pick up Intuitive Attack for Wis-base on that aspect if you feel so inclined. Owl's Insight, +½ level to hit, go!

true_shinken
2010-10-21, 07:58 PM
If so and if I can locate it, that would be a great combo with Shillelagh, if going Sacred Fist.

It's the Scorpion Kama mentioned by the OP, actually.

Endarire
2010-10-22, 12:38 AM
Trancer Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) has ideas. Change "polearm" to "staff" and you're mostly set, though you can only attack immediately next to you instead of at reach.

Also, (greater) mighty wallop from Races of the Dragon 114-115.

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 04:15 AM
It's the Scorpion Kama mentioned by the OP, actually.

Ah well. My memory fails me, then. Thought there was a weapon ability with that effect.

Fizban
2010-10-22, 06:26 AM
I'm sure everyone will shut it down immediately, but I think it's possible to interpret the TWF rules as quite nice with double weapons.

The Two Weapon Fighting section says: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties. . ." At no point does it mention damage, so your extra attack should with a quarterstaff should deal the same damage as your normal attack with a quarterstaff, which is a two-handed weapon. The phrase "attack penalties" refers only to attack rolls.

If you look to the double weapon entry in the weapons section to try and disprove this, you find that it says: "A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon." Once again we see the phrase "attack penalties," which means that the only change is in attack rolls, not damage.

If one focuses on the mentioning of light and one-handed weapons they will assume that you apply less of your strength modifier on all attacks, but if one focuses on the TWF rules then a double weapon deals a respectable amount of damage. I would also point out that while respectable, this is in no way a game breaking amount of damage, and merely brings TWF up to the level of "useful" from it's previous position of "useless." I would still be far more concerned with Pounce and Shock Trooper and the like in my game since Pounce is what breaks multiple attacks Shock Trooper breaks Power Attack (yes I know there are other things, I'm trying to be brief).

panaikhan
2010-10-22, 07:52 AM
If race is an option, Goliath Druid/Monk. They get to use weapons one size category higher. A shillelagh'd Huge quarterstaff would be a nice thing to have, IMO

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-22, 08:06 AM
Not really a character per se (yet), currently I don't have a game to play this in.

I don't really want to use goliath or half-giant, as I don't really like that flavor for this particular concept, thanks for the suggestion anyhow (and If I wanted to wield big(ger) sticks there is always the Strongarm bracers :smallwink: