[3.5] Best ToB + Psionics combination?

[Drothmal]

I might be starting a new campaign soon and I though that I would like to try combining one of my favorite mechanics (Psionics) with ToB, which I've always wanted to try out

The main concept behind the character would be a frontliner that combines damage and tanking, while not being completely useless outside of combat (which I thought could be achieved through access to powers).

The problem is that, as I go through my limited knowledge of both systems, I cannot think of a combination that is not completely MAD. My original idea was a crusader/psi war, but that almost forces INT as the dump stat, which is sub par if I want any type of out of combat skills. Warblade/Psi War seems a bit better, but I would still need 4 stats relatively high...
I wanted to know if there were any better combinations out there that people had tried out or if I am not seeing something completely obvious. Are there any tricks to boost the combination? Is something like practiced manifester worth it?

A few clarifications:
- This is NOT gestalt
- I'm trying to keep a relatively high BAB, so I'm trying to avoid 1/2 BAB classes. If possible, I was trying to have one full, one 3/4 BAB, but two 3/4 would be fine
- I don't know what type of starting stats we'll use, so I'm not sure what stat distribution I'll have
- We might start around lvl 6-7. I was planning on a human using a 2H weapon, but I’m not set on anything. If anyone has an interesting idea of a build, I would greatly appreciate any feedback


As always, thank you for your help!

[Psyren]

Allowed books/houserules?

You definitely do not need full BAB. Psywars have 3/4 and can easily keep pace with anything in ToB.

Having said that, there is little reason to mix Psywar with the TOB stuff either; there's a fair amount of overlap because either side will have melee covered. so what will help you most are better mental powers. I recommend Swordsage/Ardent or Swordsage/War Mind. Alternatively, Psion/Warblade with some Elocater thrown in.

[Drothmal]

Books allowed: Not sure yet, but for this discussion, let's assume everything but the more rare books and dragon magazine

[Siosilvar]

Swordsage/PsiWar should do fine, using PsyWar claws and Swordsage Tiger Claw strikes.

[Temotei]

If homebrew is allowed, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276) could help.

[Eldariel]

Books allowed: Not sure yet, but for this discussion, let's assume everything but the more rare books and dragon magazine

Is Homebrew allowed?

Without homebrew, I suggest Ardent/Swordsage (SAD Wisdom), Ardent/Warblade or Ardent/Crusader (Crusaders don't really need Charisma); this gets you a solid Wisdom-base and Ardents can skip some levels of manifesting thanks to Practiced Manifester, while advancing the ToB maneuvers by ½ level each.

[Dusk Eclipse]

AFAIK there is no way "official" way to use both psionic and tob effectively in a single character outside of gestalt.

The closest thing I can think of is adapting Jade Phoenix Mage into advancing psionics, and frankly I don't think it is worth the work.

But fear no, if you can use homebrew, I humbly present you Eldariel's Ephemeral Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883542)


Also if you want to go psywar manifesting, consider swordsage, there share the same stat attributes importance, psion warblade has some synergy too.
Just a food for thoughts

[Psyren]

Swordsage/PsiWar should do fine, using PsyWar claws and Swordsage Tiger Claw strikes.

Psywar's only benefit over an Ardent is the martial weapon proficiency and feats. Swordsage supplies the former, and better powers/progression/PP pool outweigh the latter; no reason to pick Psywar unless CPsi is disallowed. Even without mantle substitution (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) ardents can pick great powers with the right mantle combinations.

In addition, Ardents can lose a buttload of ML and still get 9th-level powers. (Up to 7 I believe.)

[Morph Bark]

Swordsage/Ardent would be the best combo, especially if using the Practiced Manifester feat and if you can get Jade Phoenix Mage to work for psionics rather than arcane spells in your case, I'd say go for that. With PsyWar you could go with Tashalatora though, I guess - for which you don't even require Monk levels or Unarmed Swordsage even.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Psywar's only benefit over an Ardent is the martial weapon proficiency and feats. Swordsage supplies the former, and better powers/progression/PP pool outweigh the latter; no reason to pick Psywar unless CPsi is disallowed. Even without mantle substitution (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) ardents can pick great powers with the right mantle combinations.

In addition, Ardents can lose a buttload of ML and still get 9th-level powers. (Up to 7 I believe.)


Not really, the ardent's ability to get to 9ths even with heavy multiclassing is based on them not lossing manifester levels, as they govern the level of powers they can manifest.

The normal and "optimal" number of levels you can loose is 4, since that is the maximum benefit of practiced manifester, though I am sure there are other ways to get ML even higher

[Drothmal]

Interesting, it would seem that Ardent>>PsiWar for this example. Is there a reason for that?

Thanks for the homebrew links. I'm not sure it they will be allowed, but I'll definitely ask!

Also, any advice on build/feats/powers/maneuvers? Like I had mentioned before, I though that a 2-hander + expansion + manuevers/stances could be an interesting idea

[Emmerask]

AFAIK there is no way "official" way to use both psionic and tob effectively in a single character outside of gestalt.

The closest thing I can think of is adapting Jade Phoenix Mage into advancing psionics, and frankly I don't think it is worth the work.

But fear no, if you can use homebrew, I humbly present you Eldariel's Ephemeral Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883542)


Also if you want to go psywar manifesting, consider swordsage, there share the same stat attributes importance, psion warblade has some synergy too.
Just a food for thoughts


It works quite well without gestalt or homebrew :smallwink:
I´m currently playing a psywar 4/ swordsage 2 and its quite good

In the end the build will look something like this:

psywar 4 / swordsage 2 / slayer 10 / swordsage 4

Granted I will only get 4th level powers and 7th level maneuvers but its not that high powered a campaign and I get a ton of different stuff I can do so atm (level 6) I like it even more then my wizard in the other campaign^^

/edit I use a scythe with expansion you can get some impressive damage

In the end it will be a charger with good damage who can pretty much charge anytime and everywhere but with other more utility powers/maneuvers, and of course some counters (after the charge the ac is pretty low :smallwink:)

/edit2 cpsi is disallowed + don´t own it so maybe the ardent would be better

[Cahokia]

Swordsage/PsiWar should do fine, using PsyWar claws and Swordsage Tiger Claw strikes.

This sounds like a good idea to me. I'm sure you can have fun abusing reach, too, if you want.

[Psyren]

Not really, the ardent's ability to get to 9ths even with heavy multiclassing is based on them not lossing manifester levels, as they govern the level of powers they can manifest.

The normal and "optimal" number of levels you can loose is 4, since that is the maximum benefit of practiced manifester, though I am sure there are other ways to get ML even higher

I know that; but check the math. 17 (the normal minimum to get 9ths) - 4 (Practiced Manifester) = 13. 20-13 = 7 levels you can lose. You will just be short a ton of PP and missing a chunk of spells below 9 if you go this route, but the point is that it's possible (and a claim very few other classes can make.)


Interesting, it would seem that Ardent>>PsiWar for this example. Is there a reason for that?

In a nutshell; Swordsage is handling the majority of your physical needs, and Ardents are better casters.
It's like choosing between Monk/Cleric and Monk/Paladin; sure both builds cast from Wisdom, but one is much, much better at it.

[Emmerask]

I know that; but check the math. 17 (the normal minimum to get 9ths) - 4 (Practiced Manifester) = 13. 20-13 = 7 levels you can lose. You will just be short a ton of PP and missing a chunk of spells below 9 if you go this route, but the point is that it's possible (and a claim very few other classes can make.)

Power Points are not really an issue if you use a mindfeeder weapon :smallsmile:
well maybe if you go nova every single fight it will still be an issue.

[Eldariel]

I could easily see an Ardent/Swordsage taking ~10 levels in Ardent and 10 in SS resulting in 7th level powers and 8th level maneuvers. Or a 12/8 split or 13/7 for 9th level powers and 7th level maneuvers - prolly the strongest option. The biggest issue, of course, is that Swordsage wants an even number of levels in Ardent for optimum initiator level, while Ardent wants an uneven to get higher level powers.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Power Points are not really an issue if you dual wield mindfeeder kukris with blood in the water :smallsmile:
well maybe if you go nova every single fight it will still be an issue.
FTFY :smallwink:

[Reynard]

FTFY :smallwink:

Shouldn't that be "dual wield keen mindfeeder kukris with blood in the water." ?

[Keld Denar]

That depends...for the price difference between 2 +2 and 2 +3 weapons (20,000g) is well worth a feat IMO. I'd rather spend the feat and save the cash to eventually add Wounding to my kukiris for extra zing!

[Dusk Eclipse]

:facepalm: I knew I forgotted about something.... and that might make for a fun build though using bodyfeeder in conjuction wiht vicious....

>.< I need to stop comming up with builds...

[Amphetryon]

I like getting Ego Whip with a Shadow Sun Ninja. It creates a heavy emphasis on ability damage with precision damage as an alternate way of handling encounters, and lots of mobility.

[Zhalath]

I could easily see an Ardent/Swordsage taking ~10 levels in Ardent and 10 in SS resulting in 7th level powers and 8th level maneuvers. Or a 12/8 split or 13/7 for 9th level powers and 7th level maneuvers - prolly the strongest option. The biggest issue, of course, is that Swordsage wants an even number of levels in Ardent for optimum initiator level, while Ardent wants an uneven to get higher level powers.

Prestige class? Single dip?

[Eldariel]

Prestige class? Single dip?

Doesn't help. What you'd want is an even number of initiator classes and an odd number of manifester class levels. Since there's no combination class for the two (officially), every one of your 20 levels is going to add one to either/or (or neither, which is obviously even worse). So...you kinda can only either get the cake or eat it.

[Psyren]

Doesn't help. What you'd want is an even number of initiator classes and an odd number of manifester class levels. Since there's no combination class for the two (officially), every one of your 20 levels is going to add one to either/or (or neither, which is obviously even worse). So...you kinda can only either get the cake or eat it.

I hasten to point out that manifester cake is much tastier than initiator cake. :smallbiggrin: