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Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 06:59 PM
As sort of a tangent from my other thread, and simply because I was mulling it over, I'm trying to design an effective army for my campaign setting. Simply having a bunch of "d00dz wif swordz" isn't really good for effective combat tactics.

Here's what I got so far:

Militia
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 1
Essentially armed peasants, these are usually volunteers seeking to protect their village. They have little to no training.

STR - 13
DEX - 10
CON - 14
INT - 11
WIS - 12
CHA - 9

Feats:
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness

Weapon Variants:
Battleaxe
Spear
Morningstar
Shortbow

Armor Variants:
Padded Armor
Leather Armor
Studded Leather Armor
Light Wooden Shield (w/ Battleaxe or Morningstar only.)

Legion Footsoldier
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 3
Rank-and-file troops of the Western Legion, these soldiers are trained for fighting in shield wall formations.

STR - 16
DEX - 14
CON - 18
INT - 12
WIS - 10
CHA - 8

Feats:
Improved Shield Bash
Phalanx Fighting
Defensive Strike
Shield Charge
Weapon Focus (Shortsword)

Weapons:
Masterwork Shortsword
Masterwork Spear

Armor:
Masterwork Breastplate
Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield

Legion Light Cavalry
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 3
Light Cavalry serve as double duty as scouts and skirmishers.

STR - 18
DEX - 14
CON - 16
INT - 10
WIS - 12
CHA - 8

Feats:
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Ride-By Attack
Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
Improved Mounted Archery

Feats (Mount):
Improved Natural Weapon (Hoof)
Multiattack

Weapons:
Masterwork Scimitar
Masterwork Composite Longbow

Armor:
Masterwork Studded Leather Armor
Masterwork Light Steel Shield

Legion Archer
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 3
Archers fire en masse from within formations, blotting out the sun with their arrows.

STR - 18
DEX -16
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 12
CHA - 8

Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)

Weapons:
Masterwork Composite Longbow (+4)
Masterwork Shortsword

Armor:
Masterwork Breastplate

Guild Warmage
Lawful Neutral Human Warmage 3
Not technically part of the Legions proper, Warmages are nonetheless frequently employed as artillery.

STR - 10
DEX - 12
CON - 16
INT - 18
WIS - 8
CHA - 14

Feats:
Combat Casting
Enlarge Spell
Split Ray

Weapons:
Masterwork Shortspear

Armor:
Masterwork Studded Leather Armor
Masterwork Light Steel Shield

Legion Spearman
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 5
A specialized class of footsoldier, Spearmen are commonly planted along the second row of a formation, using their spears as chargebreakers.

STR - 17
DEX - 10
CON - 18
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 8

Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Hold the Line
Weapon Focus (Longspear)
Weapon Specialization (Longspear)
Power Critical (Longspear)
Power Attack

Weapons:
+1 Longspear
Masterwork Shortspear

Armor:
Masterwork Breastplate

Legion Heavy Footsoldier
Lawful Neutral Level 5 Human Fighter
Heavy Footsoldiers split their roles between breaking formations and guarding high-priority targets.

STR - 17
DEX - 10
CON - 18
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 8

Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Sunder
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Maul)
Cleave
Great Cleave

Weapons:
Masterwork Maul

Armor:
+1 Fullplate
Masterwork Tower Shield

Legion Heavy Cavalry
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 5
Heavy Cavalry are the strongest hitters in the Legion's rank-and-file, capable of trampling footsoldiers with ease.

STR - 18
DEX - 14
CON - 17
INT - 10
WIS - 12
CHA - 8

Feats:
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Trample
Power Attack
Cleave

Feats (Mount):
Improved Natural Weapon (Hoof)
Multiattack

Weapons:
Masterwork Battleaxe
Masterwork Lance

Armor:
Masterwork Fullplate
Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield

Armor (Mount):
Masterwork Banded Mail Barding

Legion Captain
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 5
Mid-ranking troops of the Western Legion, Captains have anywhere between 10 and 100 troops under their personal command.

STR - 17
DEX - 10
CON - 18
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 8

Feats:
Improved Shield Bash
Phalanx Fighting
Defensive Strike
Shield Charge
Weapon Focus (Shortsword)
Weapon Specialization (Shortsword)

Weapons:
Masterwork Shortsword
Masterwork Composite Longbow (+2)

Armor
+1 Breastplate
+1 Heavy Steel Shield

Legion Shock Trooper
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 7
Scourge of the battlefield, Shock Troopers are elitely trained troops built to rip through enemy lines and send their formations into chaos.

STR - 17
DEX - 10
CON - 18
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 8

Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Sunder
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Maul)
Cleave
Great Cleave
Shock Trooper
Combat Brute

Weapons:
+1 Maul

Armor:
+1 Fullplate
+1 Tower Shield

Legion Commander
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 7
The highest ranking field soldier, Commanders command anywhere between 10 and 100 Captains, and by extention any Footsoldiers under their command.

Currently Unstatted.

-----

Basically, how can I improve these? What other standard military capacities do I need to fill? (Cavalry comes to mind.) What tactics can I give these soldiers besides the tried-and-true Zerg Rush?

Available Material:
Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Libris Mortis
Complete Arcane
Complete Warrior
Manual of the Planes

Crow
2010-10-20, 07:12 PM
High stats. Interesting.

I usually give rank-and-file solders the 13,12,11,10,9,8 array and arrange as needed.

Also, "Militia" implies a part time soldier, while the fighter class implies a dedication to the martial arts.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 07:14 PM
Basically, how can I improve these? What other standard military capacities do I need to fill? (Cavalry comes to mind.) What tactics can I give these soldiers besides the tried-and-true Zerg Rush?Pikes & bows defensive formation. You should have "second-row men" with reach weapons (Awlpike is 15' reach). Probably pikes in the first row too.

Pikemen would obviously have Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line, maybe even Stand Still.

Cavalry and mounted archers are both extremely effective on low levels, if there's room to maneuver. A third-level human fighter sports 5 feats, for Mounted Combat -> Ride-by Attack -> Spirited Charge, Power Attack and, say, Mounted Archery for some versatility. More specialized mounted archers might be rangers, maybe 4 levels for a horse companion.

Some light skirmishers, low levels with javelins or slings, cheap and decently effective, if kept out of enemy's reach.

A few "doppelsöldner" with solid twohanders and heavy armour for the frontlines and as shock troops. PA, Endurance, Diehard, WF & WS Greatsword, perhaps Combat Expertise too. Optionally, switch the feats around and grab Imp. Bullrush and Shock Trooper.

[Edit]: Remember the Ready action for the pikemen. Most reach weapons deal double damage when readied against a charge. With Hold the Line, a charging enemy would eat three attacks (per pikeman) before getting one in.

holywhippet
2010-10-20, 07:22 PM
What's with all the DEX penalties? That suggests everyone in the army is a little bit clumsy. You've given the militia low stats to reflect their lowly status, but odds are many of them would be labourers so they'd at least be fairly strong. You might want to give them better ranged weapons like longbows. Historically, massed archers were lethal on the battlefield - English longbowmen especially. There was one battle where they deployed barricades to stop the enemy cavalry from getting at them and the bowmen cut them to ribbons. Morningstars aren't exactly a good weapon for massed troops either - you need room to swing.

For the footsoldiers, consider giving some of them longspears. They can prepare them for charging (especially mounted) enemies and use them to fight from the second row during combat.

Main problem is, D&D isn't really designed for large scale battles if that is what you are planning. Massed archers are lethal in real life if their target lacks decent protection. In D&D they all have to "roll" high enough to pass their targets AC or get a natural 20.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 07:25 PM
For militiamen, place 10 in Dex instead of Cha (they can't be that clumsy), and give them some feats with static bonuses like Weapon Focus and Dodge (just houserule Dodge to affect all opponents to avoid having to remember dodge targets). That'd improve them a tad.

I'd also give them Hide Armor or Scalemail depending on the budget; those are relatively cheap and provide much more notable protection than Padded Armor. Hide Armor at least would be +3 compared to +1; mooks are hardly expected to move around quickly anyways.

Marnath
2010-10-20, 07:31 PM
I agree with swapping CHA and DEX. The average person is a lot more likely to be unlikeable than clumsy.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 07:31 PM
Massed archers are lethal in real life if their target lacks decent protection. In D&D they all have to "roll" high enough to pass their targets AC or get a natural 20.That's why you mass them, so some of them hit. Then the DFI bard you brought with you makes sure they notice getting hit.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 07:32 PM
I agree with swapping CHA and DEX. The average person is a lot more likely to be unlikeable than clumsy.

For militiamen, place 10 in Dex instead of Cha (they can't be that clumsy), and give them some feats with static bonuses like Weapon Focus and Dodge (just houserule Dodge to affect all opponents to avoid having to remember dodge targets). That'd improve them a tad.

Swapped them.


I'd also give them Hide Armor or Scalemail depending on the budget; those are relatively cheap and provide much more notable protection than Padded Armor. Hide Armor at least would be +3 compared to +1; mooks are hardly expected to move around quickly anyways.

I was thinking giving them a random selection of any light armor, as I do their weapon selection.

Marnath
2010-10-20, 07:34 PM
Main problem is, D&D isn't really designed for large scale battles if that is what you are planning. Massed archers are lethal in real life if their target lacks decent protection. In D&D they all have to "roll" high enough to pass their targets AC or get a natural 20.

Actually, in Heroes of Battle there are rules for treating a group of archers as a single entity that makes attacks on grid intersections, which is AC 5 IIRC.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 07:35 PM
That's why you mass them, so some of them hit. Then the DFI bard you brought with you makes sure they notice getting hit.

Heroes of Battle and Complete Warrior also have rules for arrow volleys, Phalanxes and the like. Just in case you're interested.


I was thinking giving them a random selection of any light armor, as I do their weapon selection.

I think militiamen would use the cheapest, heaviest armor available. Though of course you can give them ragtag armor and that could make sense, I'd imagine they'd go as heavy as they can since they probably lack the skill to avoid attacks to any meaningful degree so they'd rather have an armor that can block them.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 07:36 PM
Heroes of Battle and Complete Warrior also have rules for arrow volleys, Phalanxes and the like. Just in case you're interested.

Have the CW page open in front of me as I type.

Marnath
2010-10-20, 07:38 PM
I think militiamen would use the cheapest, heaviest armor available. Though of course you can give them ragtag armor and that could make sense, I'd imagine they'd go as heavy as they can since they probably lack the skill to avoid attacks to any meaningful degree so they'd rather have an armor that can block them.

Padded and leather usually were the cheapest heaviest armor available in medieval times. Seriously, no one cared if they died so why waste money on armor? Although I can see my way clear to having better-loved militias having studded leather or even chain shirts as a standard uniform.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 07:40 PM
Padded and leather usually were the cheapest heaviest armor available in medieval times. Seriously, no one cared if they died so why waste money on armor? Although I can see my way clear to having better-loved militias having studded leather or even chain shirts as a standard uniform.

In D&D, Hide Armor is cheaper than Studded Leather while providing equivalent protection, and only marginally more expensive than Leather; I'd imagine that would be the armor du jour for them.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 07:44 PM
What an army needs is scouts. A blind army is a dead army, easily. The eponymous class does a good job at it, and rangers work too. Flying mounts are an excellent investment.

That reminds me, unlike real life, air superiority is a real concern for D&D armies. (Well, the real concern would most likely be "who has more battlefield controllers", but anyhow.) Giant Eagles (2500 gp for egg, 1000gp to rear and train, unless you simply employ the trainer) and other flyers, if unopposed by similarly flying enemies (or massed and prepared archers) could oversee everything the enemy does, and rain destruction on them with impunity.



Heroes of Battle and Complete Warrior also have rules for arrow volleys, Phalanxes and the like. Just in case you're interested.Been meaning to check it out.

Marnath
2010-10-20, 07:45 PM
In D&D, Hide Armor is cheaper than Studded Leather while providing equivalent protection, and only marginally more expensive than Leather; I'd imagine that would be the armor du jour for them.

Generally though it is only worn by primitive warriors, I doubt any "civilized" people would consent to wear hides instead of normal armor.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 07:49 PM
Have the CW page open in front of me as I type.Hmmph, can I assume that CW is also on allowed books list for improving your party over in the other thread? That opens some nice options for melee'ers.

Generally though it is only worn by primitive warriors, I doubt any "civilized" people would consent to wear hides instead of normal armor.I doubt D&D's hide armour is just untanned hides thrown on. I've always imagined it's more like cuirboulli.

[Edit]: I'm a fool. I've been discussing about CWar samurai over in the other thread for a while, without realizing that CWar is on the allowed books list… :smallfrown:

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 07:51 PM
Hmmph, can I assume that CW is also on allowed books list for improving your party over in the other thread? That opens some nice options for melee'ers.

Correct.

Working on Legion Spearmen. Will edit OP when I get the actual sheet finished.

PopcornMage
2010-10-20, 08:04 PM
While individual units are fine, I don't recommend using 3.5 for mass combat.

It breaks.

Also I recommend clubs and flails for weapon options. Some exceptions may use a staff.

Siosilvar
2010-10-20, 08:05 PM
Militia...
Feats:
None. Level 1, standard array mooks really can't be expected to survive long enough to make use of feats. They're pure fodder.

I suggest Toughness and Toughness. This is what it was made for.

EDIT: And Toughness again. Forgot my fighter bonus feat.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 08:14 PM
Added Legion Spearman. Probably should add normal spear to Legion Footsoldier, and they can just drop it after the initial charge.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 08:18 PM
Legion Spearman
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 5
A specialized class of footsoldier, Spearmen are commonly planted along the second row of a formation, using their spears as chargebreakers.

STR - 17
DEX - 10
CON - 18
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 8

Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Hold the Line
Weapon Focus (Longspear)
Weapon Specialization (Longspear)
Power Critical (Longspear)
Power Attack

Weapons:
+1 Longspear
Masterwork Shortspear

Armor:
Masterwork BreastplateCombat Reflexes with 10 Dex? Swap Wis and Dex. Power Critical won't see much use, I should think. Imp. Buckler Defense is an option. Otherwise, looking good, though MW breastplate and +1 spear seem rather expensive for a role usually left for the masses.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 08:20 PM
Combat Reflexes with 10 Dex? Swap Wis and Dex. Power Critical won't see much use, I should think. Imp. Buckler Defense is an option. Otherwise, looking good, though MW breastplate and +1 spear seem rather expensive for a role usually left for the masses.

Combat Reflexes was just for qualifying for Hold the Line, but good idea.

As for the gear, well... well-trained soldiers get paid well. I'm just using standard NPC WBL.

EDIT: You don't think Power Critical will see much use with a wall of enemies smacking into a wall of spears? :smallconfused:

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 08:28 PM
Spear-wall: Mixed unit of Halberdiers(trip, 2x vs. charge), Longspearmen(reach 10, 2x vs. charge), and Awl-Pikemen(reach 15, 2x vs. charge) arranged in a triple layer. Enough to give most cavalry pause and fairly brutal on any infantry that try to get there due to having to deal with 3 layers of attacks for every single layer of enemies.

OR awl-pikes/longspears with tower-shield wielders advancing before them.

Or a layer of longspearmen and a layer of awl-pikemen supporting one another or being the one supported as necessary, preventing cavalry from charging due to running into charge-stopping concentrated fire from double-damage reach weaponry.

Supporting missile troops (poor man's tercio) are only advantageous to mercenaries or elite units that afford the training to get precise shot to make up for all of that soft cover.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 08:32 PM
Spear-wall: Mixed unit of Halberdiers, Longspearmen, and Awl-Pikemen arranged in a triple layer.

Where are Awl-Pikes from?

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 08:36 PM
Where are Awl-Pikes from?

Dragon 331 and then Dragon Compendium, if my recollection sources are correct.

They're exotic weapons though, I believe, so another thing probably more likely seen in the hands of more elite troops. Or low level fighters, especially if human, since pole arms are an especially militiar weapon. Though I'm thinking something more interesting could be done with low-level human fighters 3 feets at 1st level...

Principle should work well still with the longspears, just not quite as pants-wettingly bristly.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 08:36 PM
Combat Reflexes was just for qualifying for Hold the Line, but good idea.

As for the gear, well... well-trained soldiers get paid well. I'm just using standard NPC WBL.It just seems weird how pikemen are so much better than other footmen, when historically they were the backbone, not the elites.

What sort of stat generation method are you using?

Now then, how about some heavies? Full plate, greatsword, Power Attack, Imp. Sunder (for smashing away pikes), Imp. Bull Rush (breaking formations), Cleave, WF & WS for greatsword, Combat Brute and Shock Trooper, makes for a 6th level fighter.

[Edit]:
EDIT: You don't think Power Critical will see much use with a wall of enemies smacking into a wall of spears? :smallconfused:I predict that it will see use in about 5% of hits, and even then some of those would be crits even without Power Critical.

Marnath
2010-10-20, 08:38 PM
Where are Awl-Pikes from?

Real life, as far as I can tell. I don't find them in any of the books I have.

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 08:39 PM
It just seems weird how pikemen are so much better than other footmen, when historically they were the backbone, not the elites.

Well, the Swiss Mercenaries probably have something to do with our perceptions about that.

IIRC, sword and board guys were attempted at one time to be used to break through pikes, which got me thinking of swashbucklers with acrobatic charge, though I'm not sure if that actually works because I don't know if setting a weapon against a charge counts as an AoO or not...:smallconfused: Or if the tumble checks eat up the same amount of move as normal tumble checks (I don't think so, but even then it's a charge so is 2x the move to eat up) or if the tumble checks from acrobatic charge even avoid AoOs. x,x

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 08:45 PM
It just seems weird how pikemen are so much better than other footmen, when historically they were the backbone, not the elites.

I think it's partially the fact that I started doing this whole thing because of Battle for Wesnoth. Troop upgrades ahoy!


What sort of stat generation method are you using?

2d6+6. Since these are mass-produced mooks, they get pre-set arrays, just not the DMG ones.

Standard Array:
14
13
12
11
10
9

Elite Array:
18
16
14
12
10
8

Peasants and the like just get straight 11s.


Now then, how about some heavies? Full plate, greatsword, Power Attack, Imp. Sunder (for smashing away pikes), Imp. Bull Rush (breaking formations), Cleave, WF & WS for greatsword, Combat Brute and Shock Trooper, makes for a 6th level fighter.

The other army I'm working on has these, but they mostly work as medieval SWAT teams. I really just don't see much battlefield use for them.

On the other hand, some cavalry couldn't go amiss.


[Edit]:I predict that it will see use in about 5% of hits, and even then some of those would be crits even without Power Critical.

*shrug* I really just couldn't think of anything to spend those last two feats on. They seemd apropos.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 08:46 PM
if setting a weapon against a charge counts as an AoO or not...:smallconfused:It's not, it's a readied action.

Acrobatic Charge has nothing to do with Tumble, it just allows charging through difficult terrain.

[Edit]:
The other army I'm working on has these, but they mostly work as medieval SWAT teams. I really just don't see much battlefield use for them.Breaking pikes, pikemen and pike formations. Also for guarding tactically valuable targets (spellcasters, siege weapons, commanders, the like).

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 08:56 PM
[Edit]:Breaking pikes, pikemen and pike formations. Also for guarding tactically valuable targets (spellcasters, siege weapons, commanders, the like).

Good point.

Also, I should get some Warmages in here.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 09:05 PM
Good point.

Also, I should get some Warmages in here.

You should probably use Wizards for Warmages; the abilities of the class Warmage are so limited it's just too big of a gimp in military use. Especially things like Telepathy, Teleportation, Divinations, Walls and company that simply have huge impact in military conflicts while Warmages merely throw Fireballs on the battlefield; which is fine, of course, but Wizards do that and a ****ton more.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-10-20, 09:09 PM
While I know this may go against what your trying to do here, since this is D&D I am suprised to not see any "battle mages" in here. While I know typical scholarly wizards may not be the type for the millitary life in a D&D world where magic exsists I am almost positive that armies would use such powers to their advantage as magic makes great battlefield control. So including the odd wizard in the army could, if you have enough protection for them, give the army a lot more options as far as battlefield control goes. If the flavor of a wizard to you seems incomparable with a military lifestyle(though for me, it's not, since personally I see an army in a world with magic having it's own arcane academies to teach "military mages" how to be battlefield controllers as well as arcane spellcasters.)perhaps Sorcerers, while rare fluff wise(Most people don't go around sleeping with dragons..), would be more approprate "battle mages?" While the army would obviously not employ that many, I could see them inlisting a very small number sorcerers who may or may not have had adventuring experence, to provide them some battlefield control.

Likewise, if this army is from a religious society they may opt to employ some clerics to act as chaplains, medics and "battle mages." After all, fighting priests where not unheard of in the olden days and there is even some accounts of Popes(as rulers of the papel state which was more or less a country the pope ruled) strapping on armor going out onto the battlefield. So it's feasible that if the society from which this army comes has a religious bent some clerics may be counted among their numbers.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 09:12 PM
On the other hand, some cavalry couldn't go amiss.Heavy cavalry: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, Power Attack, WF & WS Lance, Cavalry Charger. Heavy armour, lance, longsword, shield (Tower Shield proficiency swapped to Riding Shield from RoS, ideally). Heavy Warhorse with MW chain (shirt) barding, military saddle, MW item of Ride (bridles, stirrup or something), the works.

Light Cavalry (scouts & skirmishers): ranger 2/fighter 4.
Track (bonus), Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Rapid Shot (bonus), Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, WF & WS Composite Longbow, Power Attack, Favoured Power Attack. Chain shirt, lance, Composite longbow (with as much strength as you can twist out), light warhorse, rations to survive on longer scouting trips, oil (to burn enemy supplies).


Heavy cavalry breaks unprepared opponents, smashes flanks, overruns fleeing enemies and the like. Straight charge against prepared pike formation would result in heavy losses.

Light cavalry scouts, vandalizes enemy supply trains, uses Parthian tactics against enemy formations, chases down fleeing units, maneuvers around pike formations to hit archers and the like.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 09:22 PM
You should probably use Wizards for Warmages; the abilities of the class Warmage are so limited it's just too big of a gimp in military use. Especially things like Telepathy, Teleportation, Divinations, Walls and company that simply have huge impact in military conflicts while Warmages merely throw Fireballs on the battlefield; which is fine, of course, but Wizards do that and a ****ton more.

I was thinking a handful of higher-level mages as battlefield control, but Warmages as something you can actually put aside the rank-and-file troops without worrying about them dying before getting a shot off.

Heavy Footsoldier added. The elite Shock Trooper is next, then cavalry.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 09:27 PM
but Warmages as something you can actually put aside the rank-and-file troops without worrying about them dying before getting a shot off.What with their d6 hp and light armour (and total lack of defensive spells). Meh.

Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts would be great, never running out of juice, decent hp, armour and stuff. They don't exist in your setting, though, I gather.

[Edit]: No, the actual field-ready casters would be clerics, who also happen to sport a great array of group buffs.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 09:29 PM
What with their d6 hp and light armour (and total lack of defensive spells). Meh.

12 HP before CON is better than 8 HP before CON. Means less likely to be killed in one blow by any given soldier.


Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts would be great, never running out of juice, decent hp, armour and stuff. They don't exist in your setting, though, I gather.

Correct.


[Edit]: No, the actual field-ready casters would be clerics, who also happen to sport a great array of group buffs.

Plus they'd double as field medics. They'll be there too. But you gotta do something with all the arcane casters you've got locked up in the Mages Guild.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 09:31 PM
I was thinking a handful of higher-level mages as battlefield control, but Warmages as something you can actually put aside the rank-and-file troops without worrying about them dying before getting a shot off.

If you want some level 1s, I'd still use Wizards/Sorcerers; something like Color Spray, Sleep or similar is going to have a massive impact impact on low level combat while Magic Missiles/Kelgor's Firebolt/whatever; the spells will hurt/kill a single opponent but area-effects can take out massive numbers of targets (though with some caster level optimization, the damage spells could at least deal damage).

They can use Mage Armor before the confrontation or accept the ~10% ASF chance for the crap-armor they'd get to wear. But honestly, Mage Armor is probably gonna be way better than whatever armor lowlevel mooks would wear anyways so just roll with that.


Note that casters get familiars as a class feature; Toad-familiar would grant +3 HP bringing them to practical parity with the Warmages.

Ultimately, the issue with Warmages is that their low level spells simply aren't very useful in military use. They're like Archers who run out of arrows after ~5 shots.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 09:48 PM
Ultimately, the issue with Warmages is that their low level spells simply aren't very useful in military use. They're like Archers who run out of arrows after ~5 shots.

That makes them a fairly poorly designed class then, in the sense that they don't do what they're designed to do particularly well. :smallconfused:

Greenish
2010-10-20, 09:51 PM
Legion Heavy Footsoldier
Lawful Neutral Level 5 Human Fighter
Heavy Footsoldiers split their roles between breaking formations and guarding high-priority targets.

STR - 17
DEX - 10
CON - 18
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 8

Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Sunder
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Maul)
Cleave
Phalanx Fighting

Weapons:
Masterwork Maul

Armor:
+1 Fullplate
Masterwork Tower ShieldDoesn't Phalanx Fighting require a light weapon? Anyhow, EWP: Maul isn't worth it (one average damage more than a warhammer), and two-handing is a better option overall.

[Edit]:
That makes them a fairly poorly designed class then, in the sense that they don't do what they're designed to do particularly well. :smallconfused:Well, they're hardly alone there.

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 09:51 PM
Warlocks are probably better blasters than warmages for the purposes of low-level types.

While we're on that note, some manner of Marshall or Bard with the commanders/captains might be nice to make their units more effective.


Plus they'd double as field medics. They'll be there too. But you gotta do something with all the arcane casters you've got locked up in the Mages Guild.

<_< Make 'em take a week to retrain to grab a crafting feat and have 'em produce some wand artillery?


That makes them a fairly poorly designed class then, in the sense that they don't do what they're designed to do particularly well. :smallconfused:

Yes.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 09:54 PM
Doesn't Phalanx Fighting require a light weapon?

Oh yeah, forgot about that. I'll give 'em Great Cleave.


Anyhow, EWP: Maul isn't worth it (one average damage more than a warhammer), and two-handing is a better option overall.

But you gotta admit, it looks damn cool. :smallamused:

Shock Trooper added.

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 09:58 PM
Maul proficiency just seems borked to me. Gotta take a special proficiency to get the two-handed version of the warhammer? But...it's just scaling up some. And it's not like it's a hand and a half weapon or anything, as otherwise you wouldn't need EWP with it since you're two-handing it.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 09:59 PM
Maul proficiency just seems borked to me. Gotta take a special proficiency to get the two-handed version of the warhammer? But...it's just scaling up some. And it's not like it's a hand and a half weapon or anything, as otherwise you wouldn't need EWP with it since you're two-handing it.

It's the warhammer equivalent of a bastard sword, not a greatsword.

Greenish
2010-10-20, 09:59 PM
Maul proficiency just seems borked to me. Gotta take a special proficiency to get the two-handed version of the warhammer? Maul is one-handed. Greatclub is the two-handed hammer.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 10:03 PM
Maul is one-handed. Greatclub is the two-handed hammer.

Nah, greatclub is a two-handed club. As such, it kinda sucks. (1d10 on a two-hander?)

Sadly, none of my books have a two-handed warhammer. My cousin's copy of the Arms and Equipment guide has a Fullblade, though, which is heading into anime weapon territory. :smalltongue:

Anyway, working on cavalry...
(Maybe I should think about archers, too.)

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 10:05 PM
It's the warhammer equivalent of a bastard sword, not a greatsword.

Not really, since you can use a bastard sword as a two-hander just fine without EWP

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 10:06 PM
Not really, since you can use a bastard sword as a two-hander just fine without EWP

Mauls are two-handed without EWP, one-handed with it. I gave the Heavy Footsolider/Shock Trooper the feat so they could use it with their tower shield.

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 10:07 PM
Mauls are two-handed without EWP, one-handed with it.

Ah, then EWP Maul really is pointless.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-20, 10:07 PM
Just apply the mob template to a bunch of level 1 NPC's, then have high level NPC's as horse-chargers with lances.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 10:10 PM
Just apply the mob template to a bunch of level 1 NPC's, then have high level NPC's as horse-chargers with lances.

That sounds infinitely less fun than the current method. :smallamused:

Maho-Tsukai
2010-10-20, 10:24 PM
This thread has inspired me....to make a necromantic army in a similar manner to match your living forces. If I ever stop being lazy I may just put up a post for it and one day use it in an epic mass combat game. I can see it now, skeleton and zombie hordes, more powerful undead filling up the higher ranks. Evil clerics and even some dread necromancers making great commander types and battlefield control again, falling to wizards(necromancy specialists, to be exact.) Bone Knights would also make great battlefield leaders and I see the absolute highest ranking leaders who actually place themselves on the battlefield being cleric/bone knights.(The actual leadership of the "necropolis" would be lichs most likely, but they would be more the robe wearing politician types who would let others do the whole war thing while they do the scheming, manipulating and plotting.)

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 10:28 PM
This thread has inspired me....to make a necromantic army in a similar manner to match your living forces.

Happy to be of assistance. :smallwink:

Godskook
2010-10-20, 10:34 PM
Iirc, wizards are of the oldest age-category of classes, while warmage fluff would suggest them as being quite a bit younger. So maybe the equivalent of nurses and doctors. Not everyone who wants to twist arcane magic to his will would be able to become a wizard, while warmage night-schoolboot camp takes almost anyone.

Also, you're ignoring the potency of warmage edge. It turns cantrips into far more useful weapons, and as touch attacks, will hit more frequently than a bow. Plus, they have almost all the same CL boosting tricks that a wizard has available.

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 10:45 PM
This thread has inspired me....to make a necromantic army in a similar manner to match your living forces. If I ever stop being lazy I may just put up a post for it and one day use it in an epic mass combat game. I can see it now, skeleton and zombie hordes, more powerful undead filling up the higher ranks. Evil clerics and even some dread necromancers making great commander types and battlefield control again, falling to wizards(necromancy specialists, to be exact.) Bone Knights would also make great battlefield leaders and I see the absolute highest ranking leaders who actually place themselves on the battlefield being cleric/bone knights.(The actual leadership of the "necropolis" would be lichs most likely, but they would be more the robe wearing politician types who would let others do the whole war thing while they do the scheming, manipulating and plotting.)

What, no Necropoliticians?

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 10:49 PM
Iirc, wizards are of the oldest age-category of classes, while warmage fluff would suggest them as being quite a bit younger. So maybe the equivalent of nurses and doctors. Not everyone who wants to twist arcane magic to his will would be able to become a wizard, while warmage night-schoolboot camp takes almost anyone.

Also, you're ignoring the potency of warmage edge. It turns cantrips into far more useful weapons, and as touch attacks, will hit more frequently than a bow. Plus, they have almost all the same CL boosting tricks that a wizard has available.

The principal issue with Warmage Edge is that it requires you to have a notable Int bonus[/url]. This leaves you with:
- Charisma to even get your spells
- Dex to hit (all the cantrips worth a damn are Touch Attacks, for example)
- Int for damage
- Con for durability

Which...is pretty much much Monk. Cha and Dex obviously take priority since without them, you won't do anything. Then Con 'cause you don't wanna die and then you're left with 12 Int if you're lucky. Congrats, your Magic Missile does 1 point of extra damage; YAY! And yes, that's a grand total of [i]one point, not one point per die or anything. Oh, and that's still only damage to one target until you get to level 6.

No, it's Sorcerers where it's at for the Young Prodigy role and Wizard for the Spellcaster Adept role. Warmage Edge is useful for PCs with obscene stats on levels 1-3 but as soon as level 2 spells roll in, it's kinda obsoleted. There's a reason Warmages are sorta poopooed all over. If Warmage Edge applied to all your spells, there would at least be a decent Ultimate Magus use for them on an Int-based chassis, but unfortunately Warmage Edge limits itself to your Warmage spells 'cause it's Just That Bad.


So yes, poorly designed doesn't even begin to cover it. If it was Cha to damage or if the Int to damage scaled or if it could work for other spells or if they could use Int for ranged touch attack rolls or something, it'd be alright but... And yeah, the fact that they get level 2 spells on level 4 is a crime; Warmage should be all about having lots of firepower to last a long time on the battlefield and yet the first multiplication to spellslots is gained later than that of the scholars.

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 10:51 PM
In short, Warmage Edge should've been a feat?

Godskook
2010-10-20, 10:56 PM
See, you're using PC meta-game logic on an NPC soldier.

And sorcerers *REALLY* don't work, as they're not trained, they're born. Can't raise an army of sorcerers from standard peasant stock, while wizard and warmage are both at least teachable classes.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 10:57 PM
In short, Warmage Edge should've been a feat?

That'd probably be the most elegant way to do it but since Warmage is a blatant attempt at creating a spellcaster less powerful than the core, just giving him a bit better spell selection and faster spell progression along with rewriting Warmage Edge could've worked.

Of course, the big thing against him is that he's compared to the people he's specifically supposed to be a powered down version of. Still, he's no Beguiler, who actually did that powering down thing elegantly, offering something different (skills).

Coidzor
2010-10-20, 10:59 PM
And sorcerers *REALLY* don't work, as they're not trained, they're born. Can't raise an army of sorcerers from standard peasant stock, while wizard and warmage are both at least teachable classes.

Well, one could always make sorcerers, since the idea of adding magic into the blood isn't exactly new and is still distinct from Warlocks' shtick of dark pacts.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-20, 11:02 PM
I suggest grabbing RHoD. It's a pretty decent campaign that centers around a large army, which is decently statted out. Optimization can be done, but the bulk of it is fine as is, and the campaign aint bad either. Also, it's fairly available, so ebay is your friend in this regard. Not too terribly expensive.

One of the keys is to avoid making too many faceless mooks that are all more or less the same. Sure, all armies have them...but they're boring. Use those as fodder between the interesting mobs. You have the class built mobs, you have whatever beasties they can round up or drive before them. You have whatever undead or constructs they can control, since any good leader is going to use disposable troops before letting his good stuff die. Then you get into the why and wheres. Why is the conflict going on, what locations are important to each side and why, and how are battles for each place going to play out? Assume an intelligent enemy general, with access to specialists, and a willingness to use them.

Army games can be fun, but they take a decent amount of prep to be interesting instead of a boring slog through lots of grunts.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 11:02 PM
That'd probably be the most elegant way to do it but since Warmage is a blatant attempt at creating a spellcaster less powerful than the core, just giving him a bit better spell selection and faster spell progression along with rewriting Warmage Edge could've worked.

Of course, the big thing against him is that he's compared to the people he's specifically supposed to be a powered down version of. Still, he's no Beguiler, who actually did that powering down thing elegantly, offering something different (skills).

I had always thought Warmages were supposed to be a blaster class that was tailor-made to go into Eldritch Knight or Spellsword.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-20, 11:07 PM
Oh, btw, weapon focus is actually a pretty decent feat for line fighters and the like. Ditto toughness. AC, to hit, hp, and damage are pretty much king for the level 1 types. They're not great, and will crumple before anything powerful, but they do need to be able to take on level 1s from another army efficiently, and should roundly trump non-combat focused level 1s.

Historically, armor was not generally that common among the general throng. Those who had armor typically ended up in front. So, in a large army, consider having the otherwise identical infantry squads behind the front line unarmored. Dex is also fairly helpful for this.

Warmage is an efficient army blaster. This is one role they actually excel in. They're basically a sorc with a few minor goodies, and a selection of evocation spells. They sit firmly in the fire support role. The true tier 1s do alter the course of battles if they have levels under them, though.

Edit: Warlocks are awesome too, and come into their own at an earlier level. Don't hesitate to use a few of em.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 11:11 PM
See, you're using PC meta-game logic on an NPC soldier.

And sorcerers *REALLY* don't work, as they're not trained, they're born. Can't raise an army of sorcerers from standard peasant stock, while wizard and warmage are both at least teachable classes.

*shrug* The fundamental issue with Warmages is, why go through the trouble to train a spellcaster when Archers do a better job (like, they can last longer than 30 seconds...oh, and have some actual range to speak of)? Honestly, that just seems dumb.


And honestly, it's only ever hinted what's the source of Sorcerers power. Maybe anyone with Cha 11 or higher has the potential? Maybe Warmages are actually Sorcerers who just decided to hone only a particular aspect of their skill? They're both Cha-based spontaneous casters, that'd only make sense. My point is though, the whole "source of magic" and "who can learn what" is so nebulous, especially when it comes to non-Core casters, that I wouldn't make game world defining decisions based on it. Then again, I'd just likely use Wizards for the whole shebang; Evokers do exist after all and Wizards learn Fireball on a lower level so while Warmages might become useless (level 1) faster, Wizards become useful (level 5) likely much more rapidly.

Then again, the sources about NPC level upping and levels in general are such a mess that I wouldn't base anything on those. It's stated "NPCs level up as PCs" which is obviously a load of bollocks since a dirt farmer would hit levels 4-5 from whacking moles eventually while most NPCs would never get a level and the mythical level 20 Blacksmiths DMG speaks of would never exist.

So...I wouldn't draw conclusions based on the mess that is class backgrounds in 3.X.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-20, 11:37 PM
*shrug* The fundamental issue with Warmages is, why go through the trouble to train a spellcaster when Archers do a better job (like, they can last longer than 30 seconds...oh, and have some actual range to speak of)? Honestly, that just seems dumb.


Exponential scaling, that's why. Sure, an archer is vastly more useful than a warmage at level 1. However, once the warmage starts getting aoe spells, like fireball, he has nova potential well above that of the archer.

The armor is mostly pointless, and, IMO, armor for casters is overvalued in 3.5. However, the free sudden metamagics are kinda cool, and the advanced learning allows them to pick up handy spells like force cage. If you compare them to a straight blaster sorc, they do pretty well. They basically trade off a familiar for medium armor, four sudden feats, and more spells known at any given level. Not too shabby.

Edit: Warmage edge is fairly minor, but if you have a positive int anyway, for skill check and skill point reasons, extra damage is always handy, too.

Eldariel
2010-10-20, 11:44 PM
Exponential scaling, that's why. Sure, an archer is vastly more useful than a warmage at level 1. However, once the warmage starts getting aoe spells, like fireball, he has nova potential well above that of the archer.

The armor is mostly pointless, and, IMO, armor for casters is overvalued in 3.5. However, the free sudden metamagics are kinda cool, and the advanced learning allows them to pick up handy spells like force cage. If you compare them to a straight blaster sorc, they do pretty well. They basically trade off a familiar for medium armor, four sudden feats, and more spells known at any given level. Not too shabby.

Sure, but you don't train your standard ranged attackers with the mindset "once they have seen a 100 battles they'll be useful!" Warmage has to be level 6 to get Fireball. How many level 6s are there in any given army? And how many are trained as such? If the argument is "what kinds of ranged mooks do I want", training a Warrior (or god forbid, a Fighter) and giving him a bow is gonna be more efficient than training a Warmage. When you train mooks, you just don't expect them to suddenly become elite troops; you except them to be mooks and do their thing. If you aren't training mooks, you should just go all the way and train Wizards.

Wizard who has half a billion useful powers too in addition to being able to throw the Fireball (and if you're a Focused Specialist Evoker you'll have just as many spells per day while being a level lower). And given they get level 3 spells a level before a Warmage, chances are they'll be faster to train that far than Warmages.


In PC use, it could be a relevant consideration but the percentage of level 1s put to field as such getting to level 6 is so small I just can't see it being worth it.

Drakevarg
2010-10-20, 11:51 PM
It's taken much longer than it should have, but I've hit a bit of a snag:

As it is, the Light Cavalry's WBL will allow me to apply masterwork to either its composite longbow (+4) or its mount's barding, but not both. Which should I choose?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-20, 11:52 PM
Wizards have the exact same problem. However, at low levels they're even squishier than warmages. Buffs can somewhat mitigate, sure, but then they're eating into their limited endurance.

So, you don't stick your casters on the front lines. Sure, a color spray into a rank would be great, but that'll immediately be followed by a perforated wizard by anyone who saw that. The dude in robes on the front lines is a target.

Your casters stand back. They cower behind cover, and pop off magic missiles and the like at anyone who looks like he's leading a squad. Once dry, they presumably resort to using crossbows to continue the fight. I should mention that warmage edge actually does matter at low levels, where another point of damage or two per spell can make a difference. So, at the lowest levels, they're preferable to a wizard, and thus, are more likely to actually survive to mid levels.

At higher levels, you grab force missile mage and start abusing metamagics to horrifically destroy everything and everyone. Or any other good arcane PrC, really.

Edit: Comp longbow, psycho. No question about it.

Eldariel
2010-10-21, 12:07 AM
Wizards have the exact same problem. However, at low levels they're even squishier than warmages. Buffs can somewhat mitigate, sure, but then they're eating into their limited endurance.

So, you don't stick your casters on the front lines. Sure, a color spray into a rank would be great, but that'll immediately be followed by a perforated wizard by anyone who saw that. The dude in robes on the front lines is a target.

Your casters stand back. They cower behind cover, and pop off magic missiles and the like at anyone who looks like he's leading a squad. Once dry, they presumably resort to using crossbows to continue the fight. I should mention that warmage edge actually does matter at low levels, where another point of damage or two per spell can make a difference. So, at the lowest levels, they're preferable to a wizard, and thus, are more likely to actually survive to mid levels.

Or you could just have your Wizards use useful spells like Sleep (sure, it takes a round to cast but it can be cast from behind Improved Cover and it's an AoE) or Grease or whatever. Area-of-effect is the name of the game especially with level 1 casters. And honestly? Even if they blow that one spellslot on Mage Armor, casting 3 Color Sprays is still way bigger a contribution than a Warmage will ever have. Also, he moves up to front of the formation and casts Color Spray and front moves forward; not a whole lot of time for the opposition to react.

And Warmage Edge is useful if they have positive Int. And if they cast useless spells that make them Archers without Rapid Shot (at least they hit once for damage that doesn't drop a level 1 warrior with average HD and 10 Con). And if you expect your casters to ever see level 5 or 6, you'll just train them that far. You won't put them to battle, Warmage or Wizard. That's just the wrong place to gain levels. Ever seeing enough battles to get that many levels just won't happen for soldiers. If you want level 5-6 casters, you keep them in the academy until they reach that level. And yeah, that's sensible and yeah, at that point it's way more sensible to train Wizards than Warmages.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 12:19 AM
Light Cavalry added. Heavy Cavalry is next in the queue.

[Edit]: Light Cavalry traded Spirited Charge for Point Blank Shot.

Coidzor
2010-10-21, 12:47 AM
Legion Light Cavalry
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 3
Light Cavalry serve as double duty as scouts and skirmishers.

Weapons:
Masterwork Battleaxe
Masterwork Composite Longbow

Seem good on the whole, but scimitars are a bit more of a cavalry weapon imho. Plus, y'know, high crit chance weapons in the hands of enemies makes them have more potential to be memorable since there are more hits rolled against PCs. The armor on the other hand....




Armor:
Masterwork Studded Leather Armor
Masterwork Light Steel Shield

Armor (Mount):
Breastplate Barding

Why are you lowering a skirmisher's mount's move speed and giving it better armor than its rider?

Seems to me that a buckler would be better since it doesn't negatively impact their bow-use while wearing it. Doesn't really need to be a masterwork buckler anyway, considering he'll have proficiency in it.

And it would allow masterworking the mount's armor if you really wanted it to be masterwork.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 12:57 AM
Seem good on the whole, but scimitars are a bit more of a cavalry weapon imho. Plus, y'know, high crit chance weapons in the hands of enemies makes them have more potential to be memorable since there are more hits rolled against PCs. The armor on the other hand....

It was a cultural thing. Since the Western Legion is allied with Orcs, they're kind of keen on axes.


Why are you lowering a skirmisher's mount's move speed and giving it better armor than its rider?

Mainly because the idea of leather barding seems odd in my head for some reason, and the Legion isn't big on chainmail (again, cultural thing).

Coidzor
2010-10-21, 01:03 AM
So not charging into battle with two-handed high-crit rate weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm), eh?

Heh, that gave me a horrible idea of Shotputter Whirling Frenzy Barbarian-Scouts.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 01:08 AM
So not charging into battle with two-handed high-crit rate weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm), eh?

Heh, that gave me a horrible idea of Shotputter Whirling Frenzy Barbarian-Scouts.

Falchion, eh? Didn't think of that.

I still think battleaxes look cooler. :smalltongue:

Heavy Cavalry added.

Coidzor
2010-10-21, 01:42 AM
Since you're still lacking a ranged component, just whipped this up as some food for thought.Legion Archer
Lawful Neutral Human Fighter 3
Supporting the Shield Walls from behind, these archers concentrate their fire on those most able to disrupt formations, often spotting dangers before they occur. Keen-eyed and strong but unused to taking blows.

STR - 16
DEX - 18
CON - 14 or 12 or 10
INT - 10 or 12
WIS - 12 or 14
CHA - 8

Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (Comp Longbow)
3rd level Feat: Far Shot? Improved Initiative?

Weapons:
Masterwork Shortsword
Masterwork Composite Longbow

Armor:
Masterwork Studded Leather
Masterwork Buckler

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 01:46 AM
Looks pretty good. Depending on what's available in regards to WBL, I might swap the STR and DEX around, give him a +4 Composite Bow and a Breastplate instead of Studded Leather.

[Edit]: Posted my version. Now, some sleep. :smallsigh:

Aharon
2010-10-21, 05:37 AM
I suggest using the Unit/Led Unit templates from this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179) thread.

Waylor
2010-10-21, 06:12 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587

Theres all you need :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-10-21, 06:32 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587

Theres all you need :smallbiggrin:

Perhaps a bit too effective there. :smallwink:

Psyx
2010-10-21, 06:57 AM
All your militia have dedicated their learning towards being tough, despite being weekend warriors. 3 feats dedicated to being in the militia and none towards Skill focus (farming) seems odd. At most, I'd give them two combat feats. Probably only 1.

AslanCross
2010-10-21, 07:54 AM
I suggest grabbing RHoD. It's a pretty decent campaign that centers around a large army, which is decently statted out. Optimization can be done, but the bulk of it is fine as is, and the campaign aint bad either. Also, it's fairly available, so ebay is your friend in this regard. Not too terribly expensive.

Actually, all of the creatures are available in an online PDF (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Red_Hand_of_Doom_WE.zip) that WOTC published for easy reference.



One of the keys is to avoid making too many faceless mooks that are all more or less the same. Sure, all armies have them...but they're boring. Use those as fodder between the interesting mobs. You have the class built mobs, you have whatever beasties they can round up or drive before them. You have whatever undead or constructs they can control, since any good leader is going to use disposable troops before letting his good stuff die. Then you get into the why and wheres. Why is the conflict going on, what locations are important to each side and why, and how are battles for each place going to play out? Assume an intelligent enemy general, with access to specialists, and a willingness to use them.

Army games can be fun, but they take a decent amount of prep to be interesting instead of a boring slog through lots of grunts.

Agreed on all points. Adding variety also helps a lot in making an interesting fantasy army.

Also, this thread reminds me of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37056).

Very interesting material. Worth a read.

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-21, 11:01 AM
Spear-wall: Mixed unit of Halberdiers(trip, 2x vs. charge), Longspearmen(reach 10, 2x vs. charge), and Awl-Pikemen(reach 15, 2x vs. charge) arranged in a triple layer. Enough to give most cavalry pause and fairly brutal on any infantry that try to get there due to having to deal with 3 layers of attacks for every single layer of enemies.

OR awl-pikes/longspears with tower-shield wielders advancing before them.

Or a layer of longspearmen and a layer of awl-pikemen supporting one another or being the one supported as necessary, preventing cavalry from charging due to running into charge-stopping concentrated fire from double-damage reach weaponry.

Supporting missile troops (poor man's tercio) are only advantageous to mercenaries or elite units that afford the training to get precise shot to make up for all of that soft cover.

Then behind the awl-pikemen put guys with longspears and abberant blood and streachy arms(20ft reach)

Then behind them we have the same thing but also with willing deformity:tall (25ft reach (30ft reach?))

Tyndmyr
2010-10-21, 11:17 AM
Or you could just have your Wizards use useful spells like Sleep (sure, it takes a round to cast but it can be cast from behind Improved Cover and it's an AoE) or Grease or whatever. Area-of-effect is the name of the game especially with level 1 casters. And honestly? Even if they blow that one spellslot on Mage Armor, casting 3 Color Sprays is still way bigger a contribution than a Warmage will ever have. Also, he moves up to front of the formation and casts Color Spray and front moves forward; not a whole lot of time for the opposition to react.

Sleep. HD limitation. Plus, their comrades can wake them, and probably will. It's handy, but it's going to hit a whopping four level 1s, who get to save against it, so, 2-3 go down and get woken in the next round.

Being in the front lines is just bad for survivability. Mage armor is not sufficient to mitigate that. You're still the visibly unarmored caster on the front lines, which is a magnet for fire from any intelligent opponents.


And Warmage Edge is useful if they have positive Int.

If they didn't, they would be pretty useless as wizards, wouldn't they? An army is not a bunch of improbably min-maxed odd builds. They're a representative selection of that culture. So, those with good physical stats will end up being melee or ranged. Cha heavy people could be sorcerers or warmages. Int heavy people will be archivists or wizards. You aren't replacing wizards with warmages. You're training people who never would be wizards as warmages.


And if they cast useless spells that make them Archers without Rapid Shot (at least they hit once for damage that doesn't drop a level 1 warrior with average HD and 10 Con).

1d4+1+ warmage edge(probably only 1 or 2) isn't likely to isntagib people. However, it is extremely reliable, and it has range. You use it to smack that wounded archer and finish him off, or to put some damage on that effective seargent rallying troops. Hp damage will literally be flying around everywhere in an actual battle. Your damage stacks with that.


And if you expect your casters to ever see level 5 or 6, you'll just train them that far. You won't put them to battle, Warmage or Wizard. That's just the wrong place to gain levels. Ever seeing enough battles to get that many levels just won't happen for soldiers. If you want level 5-6 casters, you keep them in the academy until they reach that level. And yeah, that's sensible and yeah, at that point it's way more sensible to train Wizards than Warmages.

Assuming you can level people by just throwing GP at training, and have an arbitrary amount of resources to do so.

Personally, I see that as unlikely. Training is assumed for a wizard or warmage regardless of level. The difference is, a warmage is done with his training the instant he steps onto the battlefield. He need never go back to learn anything from that point onward. A wizard, in addition to the assumed study, probably needs to scribe new spells.

Keep in mind that a war has enough battles, and a battle has enough encounters that a frequently engaged character could level pretty rapidly. Battles frequently continue over multiple days, and wars continue over years. Sometimes a great many years. And in a large scale battle, the only limitation is your resources. You can essentially keep firing until you run dry for the day, then contribute with mundane abilities.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 12:34 PM
Light Cavalry traded Spirited Charge for Point Blank Shot.Light Cavalry shouldn't be at point blank range (except when spearing down the fleeing enemy). Warhorse neither qualifies for or benefits from Multiattack.

There's no point not having a lance when you're fighting mounted. It's simply the best weapon for mounted charges, and what with the measly 10 gp cost, it's sheer pragmatism to pack one.

Marnath
2010-10-21, 12:51 PM
Maul proficiency just seems borked to me. Gotta take a special proficiency to get the two-handed version of the warhammer?

I agree that it shouldn't be a feat. However it should require at least a 14-16 str to use it one handed. If you doubt that, go to a hardware store and pick up a 20 pound sledgehammer. They're flippin' heavy. O.o The heaviest sledge I'd be willing to use is 12 pounds, and that gets old real fast, after an hour or so splitting logs.

On warmage vs wizard: the wizard is the better man for the job....tomorrow. If you don't have time to prepare your blasting spells, you're screwed. If you pick lightning bolt and then need fireball, you're screwed. A warmages advantage is that he knows a lot more spells than a sorceror, and he can use any spell he needs as issues or opportunities arise, giving him a significant tactical advantage over other arcanes. Also, the point about being able to crank warmages out of boot camp vs a lifetime of study or inborn talent is a good one. Yes, at high levels battlefield control is the best option...but killing all your enemies is just as good an option, especially since 90% of them are crappy little mooks that a properly thrown AoE will devastate.

Swooper
2010-10-21, 01:35 PM
Hate to rain on your parade but... Armies don't really work in D&D, unless you're running with some serious houseruling and low-magic (which all the talk of warmages vs. wizards sort of tells me you aren't). The moment a 10th level wizard decides he wants to demolish your army, it's doomed. Or any mid-level monsters - say one with DR 10/magic, or a flying one with ranged attacks. A thousand spearmen can't touch such a foe, and will get slaughtered by cloudkills and breathweapons.

On the other hand... Assuming the above doesn't apply for some reason I'm unaware of, you want Dragon Shamans in your army. Spread them out a bit, one in each unit, and make sure they have the healing aura. Fast healing 1 is going to save a LOT of lives. When healing isn't needed, they can switch to something like Power to give +1 damage to everyone. Fluff them as medics or bards or standardbearers or something if you want to.

Marnath
2010-10-21, 01:39 PM
Armies work fine in D&D, using the Heroes of Battle rules. All it takes is for every threat that might wipe out an army, ask yourself "logically, what plans would you lay down for this eventuality in a world where it is possible or even probable, assuming you're a general or king?"

Tvtyrant
2010-10-21, 01:46 PM
Hate to rain on your parade but... Armies don't really work in D&D, unless you're running with some serious houseruling and low-magic (which all the talk of warmages vs. wizards sort of tells me you aren't). The moment a 10th level wizard decides he wants to demolish your army, it's doomed. Or any mid-level monsters - say one with DR 10/magic, or a flying one with ranged attacks. A thousand spearmen can't touch such a foe, and will get slaughtered by cloudkills and breathweapons.

On the other hand... Assuming the above doesn't apply for some reason I'm unaware of, you want Dragon Shamans in your army. Spread them out a bit, one in each unit, and make sure they have the healing aura. Fast healing 1 is going to save a LOT of lives. When healing isn't needed, they can switch to something like Power to give +1 damage to everyone. Fluff them as medics or bards or standardbearers or something if you want to.

I disagree. A wizard simply can't cast fast enough to defeat an army (unless he's lvl 15->). Take a cohort of 500. 100 archers, 300 infantry and 100 cavalry (I know its more infantry-centric then that, but bear with me). The 100 archers can kill the squishy one in a single turn, so he casts arrow ward. The 100 cavalry begin their charge. The next turn the archers fire again ineffectively against the arrow ward, and the wizard kills a bunch of cavalry. Because of the way AOE spells spread he gets between ten and thirty. The next round they hit him. The wizard takes a few lances to the face and goes down hard.

If the wizard spent almost all of their spell slots prepping he might do better, but no army is without assasins and spies, so they kill him when he goes back to bed to rest. A wizard with 25 hp is not going to last long in a war. Now if we have two armies and only 1 of them has a wizard, I would agree, but if one has a level 10 wizard and the other has 10 level 1's they each cast MM, and he dies. Even if they each roll and average of 2 on their 1d4, they still do 20 dmg, of his 25.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-21, 01:56 PM
Armies work fine in D&D, using the Heroes of Battle rules. All it takes is for every threat that might wipe out an army, ask yourself "logically, what plans would you lay down for this eventuality in a world where it is possible or even probable, assuming you're a general or king?"

This.

Also, do not assume the entire army is first level. Sure, the rank and file may be short on levels, but veterans will have some experience, and in a world of magic, not everyone in the army is gonna be a warrior. Those doing special jobs, like skirmishers and the like, if they survive, will likely gain a lot of xp, too. You can end up with quite a variety of stuff in a realistic army.

Yes, high level wizards will be a big impact on the course of battles. However, it's not as simple as "wizard arrives, everyone dies". Well, not until high level. 9th level spells make a mockery of lots of things.

Swooper
2010-10-21, 01:58 PM
I disagree. A wizard simply can't cast fast enough to defeat an army (unless he's lvl 15->). Take a cohort of 500. 100 archers, 300 infantry and 100 cavalry (I know its more infantry-centric then that, but bear with me). The 100 archers can kill the squishy one in a single turn, so he casts arrow ward. The 100 cavalry begin their charge. The next turn the archers fire again ineffectively against the arrow ward, and the wizard kills a bunch of cavalry. Because of the way AOE spells spread he gets between ten and thirty. The next round they hit him. The wizard takes a few lances to the face and goes down hard.
The wizard is flying and approaches under cover of Invisibility with Protection From Arrows already up. He can let loose several Cloudkills before they even knew what hit them, and then Teleport out.

If the wizard spent almost all of their spell slots prepping he might do better, but no army is without assasins and spies, so they kill him when he goes back to bed to rest.
And the wizard is a fool if he makes camp anywhere near the opposing army.

A wizard with 25 hp is not going to last long in a war. Now if we have two armies and only 1 of them has a wizard, I would agree, but if one has a level 10 wizard and the other has 10 level 1's they each cast MM, and he dies. Even if they each roll and average of 2 on their 1d4, they still do 20 dmg, of his 25.
Fair enough (I could point out that a simple Shield spell blocks MM, but we're getting dangerously close to Shrödinger's Wizard at this point). If they all happen to be in range and all have one of their ~3 spell slots left and all decide to nuke him, that would probably hurt a bit. A tenth level wizard is going to have more than 25 hp, though. Closer to 50, depending on his Constitution.

My point is: If this is a world in which 10th level wizards, beholders and dragons exist, you're going to need a few of those of your own to tackle such threats.

Marnath
2010-10-21, 01:58 PM
Also, about the DR/magic: Magic Weapon is a 1st level spell, which means all your little level 1 clerics in your army can cast it on your best soldiers and watch them tear the beast apart.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-21, 02:03 PM
The wizard is flying and approaches under cover of Invisibility with Protection From Arrows already up. He can let loose several Cloudkills before they even knew what hit them, and then Teleport out.

See invisibility. Better yet, detect magic.

This is a viable attack, but not alone. That would be a fools errand.

Once identified, he gets pointed out and shot a lot. If unlucky, dispelled. Note that protection from arrows is only DR 5, and runs out after a given amount of damage.


And the wizard is a fool if he makes camp anywhere near the opposing army.

Yes, yes he is. However, the possibility of being tracked or hunted exists.


Fair enough (I could point out that a simple Shield spell blocks MM, but we're getting dangerously close to Shrödinger's Wizard at this point). If they all happen to be in range and all have one of their ~3 spell slots left and all decide to nuke him, that would probably hurt a bit. A tenth level wizard is going to have more than 25 hp, though. Closer to 50, depending on his Constitution.

It's medium range. And first level wizards do an average of 3.5 damage per magic missile. So, not unreasonable for some damage thataway. Projectile damage is a real danger.

Plus, there is no guarantee that every caster with the army is first level.


My point is: If this is a world in which 10th level wizards, beholders and dragons exist, you're going to need a few of those of your own to tackle such threats.

Ideally, yes. You can make do with a quantity of mid-levels though, and a good plan.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 02:16 PM
Light Cavalry shouldn't be at point blank range (except when spearing down the fleeing enemy). Warhorse neither qualifies for or benefits from Multiattack.

There's no point not having a lance when you're fighting mounted. It's simply the best weapon for mounted charges, and what with the measly 10 gp cost, it's sheer pragmatism to pack one.

Point-Blank Shot is a prerequisite for pretty much every other archery feat in the book. That's the only reason it has it.

Warhorses have 3 natural attacks:
Hoof
Hoof
Bite

If you're going to argue that the two hooves don't count seperately for the purposes of the feat, the basis of my logic is that Gravetouched Ghouls have Multiattack as a bonus feat, whilst having:
Claw
Claw
Bite

Lances are friggen huge and cumbersome, and really unreasonable for use by someone trained to be fast and maneuverable. (And along that logic, I'm going to remove that horse's barding. It only slows it down.)


Hate to rain on your parade but... Armies don't really work in D&D, unless you're running with some serious houseruling and low-magic (which all the talk of warmages vs. wizards sort of tells me you aren't).

Don't care. This is fun.


The moment a 10th level wizard decides he wants to demolish your army, it's doomed.

10th Level Wizard? What 10th Level Wizard. Anything over 7th level is considered extremely abnormal in this setting. Anything over 13th level is practically unheard of.


Or any mid-level monsters - say one with DR 10/magic, or a flying one with ranged attacks. A thousand spearmen can't touch such a foe, and will get slaughtered by cloudkills and breathweapons.

Archers, and Magic Weapon Oil is part of their standard equipment.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-21, 02:27 PM
I believe it would qualify, but would only boost the bite. I'd prefer Improved Natural Attack to the hooves, which boosts the damage die size of both.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 02:32 PM
The wizard is flying and approaches under cover of Invisibility with Protection From Arrows already up. He can let loose several Cloudkills before they even knew what hit them, and then Teleport out.

All it takes is a single scroll of see invisibility and a well aimed arrow volley after an application of magic weapon oil.


My point is: If this is a world in which 10th level wizards, beholders and dragons exist, you're going to need a few of those of your own to tackle such threats.

Beholders do but are rare, dragons don't, and 10th Level Wizards are extremely rare. If one was on the battlefield, you can bet your ass the Legion would get one of their own in response. But it isn't going to be part of the standard setup.


I believe it would qualify, but would only boost the bite. I'd prefer Improved Natural Attack to the hooves, which boosts the damage die size of both.

That's how I've set it up.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 02:33 PM
Point-Blank Shot is a prerequisite for pretty much every other archery feat in the book. That's the only reason it has it.…But they don't have any of those other archery feats. :smallconfused:


Warhorses have 3 natural attacks:Ah, my bad, I was thinking something else.


Lances are friggen huge and cumbersome, and really unreasonable for use by someone trained to be fast and maneuverable.It's a stable weapon for light cavalry thorough history. Cumbersome? You gave them battleaxe & shield. That's not what I think when I hear "fast and manoeuvrable".

Also, this is D&D. Someone must've noticed how great a weapon lance is for mounted combat.


[Edit]: I just noticed you gave your heavy cavalry Cleave, awesome. Spirited Charge with lances and Power Attack, then sweep two guys down pretty much automatically, then (if there's space) continue past them. I had thought of Cavalry Charger, because it enables overrunning several opponents, but that works too.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 02:41 PM
…But they don't have any of those other archery feats. :smallconfused:

*goes back and checks* So I didn't. Hm. What else would you recommend?


Cumbersome? You gave them battleaxe & shield. That's not what I think when I hear "fast and manoeuvrable".

Shield goes on the back, battleaxe goes on the belt. Done, out of the way. Lance? 20 pound, 10 foot long, several inch thick chunk of wood. Fastened astride your horse, maybe.

Plus, light cavalry has no business charging anyway. They're skirmishers.


[Edit]: I just noticed you gave your heavy cavalry Cleave, awesome. Spirited Charge with lances and Power Attack, then sweep two guys down pretty much automatically, then (if there's space) continue past them. I had thought of Cavalry Charger, because it enables overrunning several opponents, but that works too.

Cavalry charge requires 6th level. I always build my NPCs (discounted named ones) at 1st/3rd/5th/7th/9th/11th/13th level. If I make an elite cavalry, they'll get Cavalry Charger.


Once identified, he gets pointed out and shot a lot. If unlucky, dispelled. Note that protection from arrows is only DR 5, and runs out after a given amount of damage.

It's DR 10/Magic, it blocks 10 damage/level.


Plus, there is no guarantee that every caster with the army is first level.

Highly unlikely, actually, given that the rank-and-file soldier is 3rd level.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 02:54 PM
*goes back and checks* So I didn't. Hm. What else would you recommend?WF & WS are always nice, though I'd use ranger for light cavalry, especially for scouting. They have the skills to represent the different training and focus.

Lance? 20 pound, 10 foot long, several inch thick chunk of wood. Fastened astride your horse, maybe.Even the D&D version is only 10 lb (length not given, but around 10' sounds reasonable). There's a holster in the saddle for it.


Plus, light cavalry has no business charging anyway. They're skirmishers.No business charging prepared enemy troops, that's right, but chasing down fleeing enemies, striking the supply trains and so forth it's rather effective. Also, inspiring poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade_(poem)). :smallwink:

Cavalry charge requires 6th level. I always build my NPCs (discounted named ones) at 1st/3rd/5th/7th/9th/11th/13th level. If I make an elite cavalry, they'll get Cavalry Charger.Right-o, missed the level. Cavalry Charger is a nice Tactical feat for a DM in that it requires no previous round set-up for any of the manoeuvres.

I might suggest stripping the heavy cavalry from their shields. Full plate is protection aplenty, and two-handing the lance with Charge and, say, a falchion on melee gives much better results from PA and thus Cleave.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-21, 03:07 PM
Battleaxe and shield is not a historically likely weapon combo for use on a horse. Battleaxes are inherently a mass attack weapon, and it's just really hard to use an axe like that from horseback. It is far, far clumsier than a lance.

I would expect light cav to pack bows, and perhaps sword and shield. Shield being optional. Lance is possible, but lance charges can get you stuck in, so using them on light cav is situational. For heavy cav, it's bread and butter.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 03:09 PM
WF & WS are always nice, though I'd use ranger for light cavalry, especially for scouting. They have the skills to represent the different training and focus.

True, but what would I give them for Favored Enemy? They don't consistantly fight the same species over and over.


Even the D&D version is only 10 lb (length not given, but around 10' sounds reasonable). There's a holster in the saddle for it.

You really want these boys to have a lance, don't you? :smallamused:


I might suggest stripping the heavy cavalry from their shields. Full plate is protection aplenty, and two-handing the lance with Charge and, say, a falchion on melee gives much better results from PA and thus Cleave.

Or I could go for the ridiculous, give them Monkey Grip and have them dual-wield lances. :smalltongue:


Battleaxe and shield is not a historically likely weapon combo for use on a horse. Battleaxes are inherently a mass attack weapon, and it's just really hard to use an axe like that from horseback. It is far, far clumsier than a lance.

I'll give 'em scimitars, then.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-21, 03:11 PM
Or I could go for the ridiculous, give them Monkey Grip and have them dual-wield lances. :smalltongue:

Oh yeah, that'd be ridiculous indeed. One lance is plausible, provided you use it in a matter befitting light infantry. Multiple? Nah. Besides, cav dual wielding is pretty unlikely to begin with.

Edit: Scimitar is a reasonable weapon choice, depending on culture.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 03:16 PM
Oh yeah, that'd be ridiculous indeed. One lance is plausible, provided you use it in a matter befitting light infantry. Multiple? Nah. Besides, cav dual wielding is pretty unlikely to begin with.

I meant for the Heavy Cavalry. :smalltongue:


Edit: Scimitar is a reasonable weapon choice, depending on culture.

They're a culture linked to Orcs, so it seems apropos.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-21, 03:25 PM
Heavy cav? Even leaving aside the mechanical problems, I can't recall ever seeing a dual lance knight in real life. The lack of shield would be suicide, plus you couldn't properly get in a tuck that would allow you to use both at once. Not to mention the likelihood of impact carrying you off the horse.

I'll admit its an interesting image, probably second only to a thri-keen riding mounted, with lances in every arm, but probably not terribly practical.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 03:39 PM
Heavy cav? Even leaving aside the mechanical problems, I can't recall ever seeing a dual lance knight in real life. The lack of shield would be suicide, plus you couldn't properly get in a tuck that would allow you to use both at once. Not to mention the likelihood of impact carrying you off the horse.

I'll admit its an interesting image, probably second only to a thri-keen riding mounted, with lances in every arm, but probably not terribly practical.

That's why I said it'd be ridiculous. On the other hand, it would look very metal. :smallamused:

Swooper
2010-10-21, 03:45 PM
10th Level Wizard? What 10th Level Wizard. Anything over 7th level is considered extremely abnormal in this setting. Anything over 13th level is practically unheard of.
Aha, so your setting is low powered and therefore invalidates my logic. Carry on.

Do note my suggestion about Dragon Shamans, though! :smallwink:

The Shadowmind
2010-10-21, 03:52 PM
I see your army is currently completely lacking in medics. From the Favored Soul, and Clerics are the standard options. Maybe a Cleric 1 with the Healing and the War Domain. I'd suggest bard but you have that class banned.
One medic per every 10 fighters would be decent ratio if the medic isn't fighting in direct combat, just cleaning up after battle.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 03:54 PM
I see your army is currently completely lacking in medics. From the Favored Soul, and Clerics are the standard options. Maybe a Cleric 1 with the Healing and the War Domain. I'd suggest bard but you have that class banned.
One medic per every 10 fighters would be decent ratio if the medic isn't fighting in direct combat, just cleaning up after battle.

Yeah, I think Clerics will be next on my list.

Though I should note that potions of cure moderate wounds are standard issue gear for Footsoldiers.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-21, 04:01 PM
Where are the archers and siege engines? :smallbiggrin: No army is complete without catapults, ballista, and trebuchet!

*The most important one is the trebuchet, they're awesome just because of their name!*

Oh, and don't forget griffon riders and war elephants! :smallbiggrin:

Fable Wright
2010-10-21, 04:24 PM
Yeah, I think Clerics will be next on my list.

Though I should note that potions of cure moderate wounds are standard issue gear for Footsoldiers.

Equip clerics with a wand of cure light wounds, maybe a couple scrolls of sanctuary, and they can be extremely effective healbots. If possible, try to give them spells that affect multiple opponents/allies, as that is extremely useful in this type of combat. As stated above, a couple of war elephants and siege weapons wouldn't be out of line, and possibly have several wizards/sorcerers (on the elephants, giving them cover, or some other suitable defensive position) equipped with wands of magic missile. These could be very useful. Finally, specialized guerrilla units (7th level rangers) would also come in handy.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-10-21, 04:36 PM
Also, while it may not be something that's necessary, being a former warhammer player makes me want to see this army have some kind of slightly higher level character(s) as a 'Hero" type unit which serve as the really powerful absolute leaders of the army and such. All you really need is one, and they would only have to be like level 10 or something. I know that in the undead/necro army I am planing I will have a such a character, so perhaps you want to try one out as well? Or dose has this kingdom fluff wise not produced such a legendary figure?

Greenish
2010-10-21, 04:42 PM
I would expect light cav to pack bows, and perhaps sword and shield. Shield being optional. Lance is possible, but lance charges can get you stuck inTrue enough, though Ride-by Attack is plenty nice (and with a reach weapon you can avoid AoO from non-reach enemies).

True, but what would I give them for Favored Enemy? They don't consistantly fight the same species over and over.Give 'em different FE 'pending on where they were trained?


You really want these boys to have a lance, don't you? :smallamused:What can I say, it's one of my favourite weapons. :smallcool: : Don't tell me Spirited Charge lance attack with two-handed lance and Favoured Power Attack doesn't sound good to you. 1:6 PA returns, yes please!


Or I could go for the ridiculous, give them Monkey Grip and have them dual-wield lances. :smalltongue:Oversized TWF would work much better for that (lances are already 1-handed when mounted, and Monkey Grip doesn't make 2-handed weapons into 1-handed weapons anyhow). But yeah, that'd be silly. And awesome.

I'll give 'em scimitars, then.Ha, another one of my favourite weapons, and very appropriate for cavalry.

Do note my suggestion about Dragon Shamans, though! :smallwink:No dragons, no dragon shamans in the setting.

jiriku
2010-10-21, 04:44 PM
Stat your basic militia conscripts as 2nd level warriors rather than 1st level fighters. Roughly similar in numbers, but the underlying mechanics are a better fit.

I recommend casters with reserve feats. Perhaps the one that allows you to summon an elemental. The one that throws mini-fireballs is nice too. Warmages make great army-support casters. The fact that wizards are better doesn't really matter: warmages are solid NPC choices because they can function as magical artillery quite well.

Consider more exotic mounts for your heavy cav. An advanced protoceratops, for example, is much more interesting than a heavy warhorse (and much more durable). Give it Powerful Charge and Track, and you'll have a heavy hitter with scent that doubles as a heavy forward scout.

Swooper
2010-10-21, 04:46 PM
I see your army is currently completely lacking in medics. From the Favored Soul, and Clerics are the standard options. Maybe a Cleric 1 with the Healing and the War Domain. I'd suggest bard but you have that class banned.
One medic per every 10 fighters would be decent ratio if the medic isn't fighting in direct combat, just cleaning up after battle.
I still recommend the Dragon Shamans for efficiency. The healing aura can bring every wounded soldier up to half max health, from there regular medics (clerics or even healers from Miniature's Handbook) with CLW wands can take over.

No dragons, no dragon shamans in the setting.
Refluffing them isn't exactly hard. Call them clerics or something.

GreatWyrmGold
2010-10-21, 05:08 PM
Also, "Militia" implies a part time soldier, while the fighter class implies a dedication to the martial arts.
This.

Conscripts would be commoners or experts; conscripts from tough pasts (e.g. defending a farm from sporadic goblin attacks) might be higher-level commoners or experts, or warriors; militia might be warriors; trained soldiers with little or no battle experience would be 1st- or maybe 2nd-level fighters, and other than that you're doing well.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 05:10 PM
Refluffing them isn't exactly hard. Call them clerics or something.No PHBII in the campaign, I should've said.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 05:33 PM
Stat your basic militia conscripts as 2nd level warriors rather than 1st level fighters. Roughly similar in numbers, but the underlying mechanics are a better fit.

I don't use the NPC classes, except for Commoner. And really, Commoner is just a way of saying "doesn't have class levels."


Consider more exotic mounts for your heavy cav. An advanced protoceratops, for example, is much more interesting than a heavy warhorse (and much more durable). Give it Powerful Charge and Track, and you'll have a heavy hitter with scent that doubles as a heavy forward scout.

Bear Cavalry? :smallamused:


No PHBII in the campaign, I should've said.

Correct.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 05:40 PM
[Retracted] Cavalry? :smallamused:Quick, remove that before the madness begins!

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 05:45 PM
Quick, remove that before the madness begins!

I dunno, it's a legitimate concern. These guys are chummy with Orcs.

On the other hand, pun abusers will be lit aflame. :smallannoyed:

Jjeinn-tae
2010-10-21, 05:54 PM
I dunno, it's a legitimate concern. These guys are chummy with Orcs.

On the other hand, pun abusers will be lit aflame. :smallannoyed:

It would almost be worth it.

On topic though, these guys are allied with the orcs then, and share similar tactics? Or just similar weaponry? You might want to consider them employing small groups of "berserks" which would be probably used mainly to split enemy formations, or tear them apart should they stay together.

Probably heavily skilled (or crazy, that's very demoralizing to the enemy) and relatively lightly armored, they'd charge in swinging something really big around that no one wants to be hit by. I don't know if there's a terrifying charge type feat you can take early on though.

Also, I think javelinmen is rather flavorful with the standard orcs, throw spears until they get close, and stab them with more spears once they do.

Just some food for thought.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 06:00 PM
On topic though, these guys are allied with the orcs then, and share similar tactics? Or just similar weaponry? You might want to consider them employing small groups of "berserks" which would be probably used mainly to split enemy formations, or tear them apart should they stay together.

They already have Heavy Footsoliders for that.

Also, in this setting the Orcs are similarly legionesque, though with more of a tendancy to go Wookie and rip your damn arms off.


Probably heavily skilled (or crazy, that's very demoralizing to the enemy) and relatively lightly armored, they'd charge in swinging something really big around that no one wants to be hit by. I don't know if there's a terrifying charge type feat you can take early on though.

There's Intimidating Rage.


Also, I think javelinmen is rather flavorful with the standard orcs, throw spears until they get close, and stab them with more spears once they do.

I considered Javelineers, but decided they were rendered redundant by the archers.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 06:00 PM
Probably heavily skilled (or crazy, that's very demoralizing to the enemy) and relatively lightly armored, they'd charge in swinging something really big around that no one wants to be hit by. I don't know if there's a terrifying charge type feat you can take early on though.Intimidating Rage from CWar is pretty nice (these guys are barbarians, obviously), though single target. A CScoundrel skill trick could fix that, but that's not an option, I'm afraid.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 06:02 PM
A CScoundrel skill trick could fix that, but that's not an option, I'm afraid.

Another "Complete" book? How many are there? :smallsigh:

Greenish
2010-10-21, 06:05 PM
Another "Complete" book? How many are there? :smallsigh:In no particular order:
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Psionic
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
That should be it.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 06:08 PM
In no particular order:
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Psionic
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
That should be it.

Complete Arcane and Complete Mage?

And they couldn't make that one book, why?

Jjeinn-tae
2010-10-21, 06:09 PM
Another "Complete" book? How many are there? :smallsigh:

...7 maybe?

Arcane, Mage, Divine, Champion, Adventurer, Scoundrel, Warrior, Psion... Ok, at least 8.



Hmm, legionaries, that makes sense in hindsight, shock troopers are largely the same function, You've updated that main post a lot. War drummers spread out could be helpful to them, but that rings a little too much tribal orc... Scouts and Assassins probably fit, but all of these are more individual/small groups rather groups. Sorry, can't help with the units I guess, but I like what you're doing here.

Edit: And ninja'd. From what I understand, champion is kind of a similar idea to divine also. I guess it all sounded better than Complete Arcane, pt II, then it doesn't make Complete seem very complete.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 06:11 PM
Complete Arcane and Complete Mage?

And they couldn't make that one book, why?Comp. Mage, Scoundrel, Psionic and Champion are newer ones. Maybe they came up with something new after CArcane went to prints.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 06:14 PM
You've updated that main post a lot.

And to think, when I'm done I get to do the other Human faction, the Orc faction (probably largely just this one with the race changed), and the Elf faction. :smallamused:


Edit: And ninja'd. From what I understand, champion is kind of a similar idea to divine also. I guess it all sounded better than Complete Arcane, pt II, then it doesn't make Complete seem very complete.

I think Complete Arcane II would have sounded cooler. If a tad oxymoronic.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-10-21, 06:28 PM
You have a lot of work ahead of you... and have made me deem it necessary to do the same for my setting... despite the fact when it's meant to be played, civilization has broken down...


Since the orcs are very regimented, does that make the other factions less so? I could see the other factions taking more "modern" styles of combat to be able to stand a chance militarily; Of course I really don't know the first thing about your campaign world at this point, but it intrigues me none the less.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 06:33 PM
Since the orcs are very regimented, does that make the other factions less so? I could see the other factions taking more "modern" styles of combat to be able to stand a chance militarily; Of course I really don't know the first thing about your campaign world at this point, but it intrigues me none the less.

Orcs and West Humans are roughly based on Greco-Roman Legions. Orcs probably more in the Greek direction (i.e., bat**** insane warrior culture Orc-Spartans), while West Humans are more in the Roman direction.

Elves are vaguely Japanese. Lots of mounted archers, and heavier use of militia.

East Humans are sort of Crusades-era. Chainmail, sword-and-board, cavalry, etc.

Marnath
2010-10-21, 06:52 PM
I notice you didn't make a warmage yet, so I thought I'd submit a sample one.



Legion Warmage
Lawful Neutral Human Warmage 5
These guys blow stuff up. 'nuff said.

STR 8
DEX 12
CON 17
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 18

Feats:
Combat casting
Spell penetration
Extend spell

Weapons:
Masterwork morningstar and light steel shield or
Spear

Armor:
Masterwork chain shirt


I figured extend spell for buffs before battle, since the extra casting time won't matter then.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 07:14 PM
I notice you didn't make a warmage yet, so I thought I'd submit a sample one.



Legion Warmage
Lawful Neutral Human Warmage 5
These guys blow stuff up. 'nuff said.

STR 8
DEX 12
CON 17
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 18

Feats:
Combat casting
Spell penetration
Extend spell

Weapons:
Masterwork morningstar and light steel shield or
Spear

Armor:
Masterwork chain shirt


I figured extend spell for buffs before battle, since the extra casting time won't matter then.Extend Spell? Buffs? Do you realize that you put "warmage" as the class? There are two buffs they can extend, other gives bonus to strength and slam attack for 1 minute, and the other is True Strike.

[Edit]: No wait, they have one that doubles a range weapon's range increment for 10 min/level.

Marnath
2010-10-21, 07:22 PM
Good point, they should have crossbows or something.

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 07:23 PM
I was gonna go with Enlarge Spell and Split Ray.

Marnath
2010-10-21, 07:31 PM
I was gonna go with Enlarge Spell and Split Ray.

Thats a much better idea than what I came up with.

*edit: I had one too many too, didn't I? augh.:smallsigh:

Drakevarg
2010-10-21, 07:31 PM
Thats a much better idea than what I came up with.

I was considering Explosive Spell, but at their level it wouldn't get any use. :smallsigh:


*edit: I had one too many too, didn't I? augh.:smallsigh:

Nope.

Human Bonus Feat
Level 1 Feat
Level 3 Feat

I'm keeping Combat Caster.

[Edit]: Added Guild Warmage.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-21, 07:56 PM
Quick advice time; invest heavily in pikes, archers, and low level mages. Have the puny mages concentrate on pulling down higher level mages or work together to punch a hole in the enemies line using sleep.

Archers shoot things. Specifically flying things and horsemen.

Pikemen are to be layered, with the first layer wearing spiked plate so they can make melee attacks on adjacents, with the following lines having less and less armor to lower costs. Each of them should have feats that increase AoO's, and put immediately behind each other. Second line should be braced when not moving to prevent horsemen from attacking the line.

Depending on the size of the army concentrate on making several small hollow squares with spaces between them of ten feet to increase surface area and AoO. Have your mages stand in the deadly AoO spaces, so the enemy will take between ten and twenty AoO when trying to get to them. Archers, clerics and cavalry should also be primarily stationed in these areas to promote maneuverability and line of sight. If the enemy has more archers/mages then you do not put your troops in the gaps, instead concentrating archers all on one flank guarded by you cavalry to break their own formation.

Cavalry should only use their ridebys and charges under a few situation, and act as mobile defense infantry otherwise. These circumstances are:
1. The enemy has had their line broken/clear line to the enemies mages/archers/leader.
2. The enemy has large spaces in their formation to reduce the effectiveness of AoE spells, and so you can ride through without stopping.
3. the enemy has no pikemen, so make small charges that ride along the edges of the enemy and use your lances as reach weapons, preventing them from having AoO.

WhiteShark
2010-10-21, 10:32 PM
I notice you didn't make a warmage yet, so I thought I'd submit a sample one.



Legion Warmage
Lawful Neutral Human Warmage 5
These guys blow stuff up. 'nuff said.

STR 8
DEX 12
CON 17
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 18

Feats:
Combat casting
Spell penetration
Extend spell

Weapons:
Masterwork morningstar and light steel shield or
Spear

Armor:
Masterwork chain shirt


I figured extend spell for buffs before battle, since the extra casting time won't matter then.

If the arcane casters in the army are going to be level 5 anyway, it would be far better to have wizards. Any sort of advantage (perceived or otherwise) that warmages may have had over wizards has certainly disappeared by level 5. If you really want to represent Cha-based arcane casters in the military, use sorcerers, please.

EDIT: I suppose I could come up with a level 5 wizard to submit, but I'd like to make sure that it would be used.

Marnath
2010-10-21, 10:39 PM
If the arcane casters in the army are going to be level 5 anyway, it would be far better to have wizards. Any sort of advantage (perceived or otherwise) that warmages may have had over wizards has certainly disappeared by level 5. If you really want to represent Cha-based arcane casters in the military, use sorcerers, please.

EDIT: I suppose I could come up with a level 5 wizard to submit, but I'd like to make sure that it would be used.



On warmage vs wizard: the wizard is the better man for the job....tomorrow. If you don't have time to prepare your blasting spells, you're screwed. If you pick lightning bolt and then need fireball, you're screwed. A warmages advantage is that he knows a lot more spells than a sorceror, and he can use any spell he needs as issues or opportunities arise, giving him a significant tactical advantage over other arcanes. Also, the point about being able to crank warmages out of boot camp vs a lifetime of study or inborn talent is a good one. Yes, at high levels battlefield control is the best option...but killing all your enemies is just as good an option, especially since 90% of them are crappy little mooks that a properly thrown AoE will devastate.

I have to ask, did you read this at all? Because I think I made a couple good points. Also, see the comments about many weaker arcanes pwning a higher level through a great many lesser spells/ lots more actions per round.

Emy
2010-10-21, 11:56 PM
How would the damage output of the Warmage's ranged blasting spells compare to the damage output of the Wizard casting Haste on the 5 best ranged weapon toting warrior-types near him?

Serious question, not rhetorical.

edit: Depending on your army's formation and composition, Mass Snake's Swiftness might be better than Haste.

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 12:07 AM
How would the damage output of the Warmage's ranged blasting spells compare to the damage output of the Wizard casting Haste on the 5 best ranged weapon toting warrior-types near him?

That's not quite a fair question. A better one would be "How would the damage out put of the Warmage's ranged blasting spells, plus the damage output of the 5 bst ranged weapon-toting warrior-types near him compare to a Wizard casting haste on those 5 ranged weapon-toting warrior-types?"

After all, you get the archers either way. The question is which caster to put with them.

Marnath
2010-10-22, 12:15 AM
How would the damage output of the Warmage's ranged blasting spells compare to the damage output of the Wizard casting Haste on the 5 best ranged weapon toting warrior-types near him?

Serious question, not rhetorical.

edit: Depending on your army's formation and composition, Mass Snake's Swiftness might be better than Haste.

Haste is a 3rd level spell, above the level 5 warmage I posted. More specifically? Warmage gets fireball and ice storm at that level, which are (assuming 6th level, the minimum for 3rd level spells) 6d6 to everyone in 20 feet, and 5d6 to everyone in 40 feet. With decent rolls for damage, you just killed a whole platoon or so with one spell. 5 archers are going to have trouble keeping up with that, if for no reason other than action economy. Lightning bolt is less cool for the standard combat unless you can get perpendicular to the enemy ranks, but if you did that you'd kill potentially dozens of people, with that 120 foot line. You'd probably die after that for being so stupid as to close to melee range, but whatever.
Also, they actually get a couple control spells at that level, stinking cloud and sleet storm, which would both seriously inconvenience troops caught in their radius.

*edit ^: exactly, psycho. The wizard gave up his whole turn to give a slight benefit to the archers, the warmage killed 0-50 people and the archers are still decent shots on their own merit.

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 12:18 AM
If it changes the calculations at all, note that I'm gonna houserule that the Warmage spell progression is one level ahead of RAW. (Because honestly, 4th level for 2nd level spells is just stupid.)

Emy
2010-10-22, 12:22 AM
That's not quite a fair question. A better one would be "How would the damage out put of the Warmage's ranged blasting spells, plus the damage output of the 5 bst ranged weapon-toting warrior-types near him compare to a Wizard casting haste on those 5 ranged weapon-toting warrior-types?"

After all, you get the archers either way. The question is which caster to put with them.

I'm not thinking of counting the normal attacks of the archers. Just the ones granted by haste. The +1 to all their attacks from haste doesn't hurt either.


Haste is a 3rd level spell, above the level 5 warmage I posted.

Right, but it's not above a level 5 wizard.

Edit:

If it changes the calculations at all, note that I'm gonna houserule that the Warmage spell progression is one level ahead of RAW. (Because honestly, 4th level for 2nd level spells is just stupid.)

Yeah, 3rd level spells at 5 probably helps the warmage a lot. It doesn't give them significantly more out of combat utility, but it adds some dakka.

Marnath
2010-10-22, 12:22 AM
If it changes the calculations at all, note that I'm gonna houserule that the Warmage spell progression is one level ahead of RAW. (Because honestly, 4th level for 2nd level spells is just stupid.)

That makes it even more lopsided, because ignoring bonus spells from your casting stat(which would be a +4 either way, on a set stat array) the warmage gets 3 3rd level spells to the wizard's 1. You cast haste, I cast ice storm 3 times along your front line. Your hasted archers die horribly as the lines disintegrate and my infantry pour through. :smallamused:

*edit ^: oh yeah. But that's irrelevant with psycho's change.

*edit2:

Edit:
Yeah, 3rd level spells at 5 probably helps the warmage a lot. It doesn't give them significantly more out of combat utility, but it adds some dakka.

Oh, no one is suggesting warmages are worth a damn outside of combat! :smalleek:
Wizard is superior for everything except killing huge numbers of mooks, hands down.

Emy
2010-10-22, 12:28 AM
That makes it even more lopsided, because ignoring bonus spells from your casting stat(which would be a +4 either way, on a set stat array) the warmage gets 3 3rd level spells to the wizard's 1. You cast haste, I cast ice storm 3 times along your front line. Your hasted archers die horribly as the lines disintegrate and my infantry pour through. :smallamused:

*edit ^: oh yeah. But that's irrelevant with psycho's change.

It's not "your army" attacking "my army". I don't even have an army. I'm not sure why you think I have some personal stake in this. It's Psycho's army that we're trying to help design... remember?

edit: Sudden Extend would probably be a good feat choice, if Ice Storm is in use.
edit #2: Or Sudden Maximize. Or both. Sure, Warmages get it for free, but that's pretty late in their progression.

Marnath
2010-10-22, 12:32 AM
It's not "your army" attacking "my army". I don't even have an army. I'm not sure why you think I have some personal stake in this. It's Psycho's army that we're trying to help design... remember?

edit: Sudden Extend would probably be a good feat choice, if Ice Storm is in use.

Hmm, I was gonna say they get it free, but they don't. That would be a good pick if it wasn't 1/day.

*edit2: Hey, we haven't picked the level 5 warmage's advanced learning spell yet! What should it be?

Emy
2010-10-22, 12:34 AM
Hmm, I was gonna say they get it free, but they don't. That would be a good pick if it wasn't 1/day.

Well, there are limits to how useful most feats are for spellcasters, so the 1/day Nuke Button of an Extended (or Widened), Maximized Ice Storm might be good for an army mage. Never know when you won't have time to get a second spell off, right?

I don't remember, do Warmages get knowledges as class skills? If so, Knowledge Devotion could stack nicely on top of Warmage Edge.

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 12:35 AM
To actually answer the question:

Not counting criticals, 5 hasted Legion Archers would deal an average of 8.5 damage each to 5 different targets.

A 5th Level Warmage (with my houserule) could cast a single ice storm into a crowd and deal an average of 21.5 damage to everything in a 40-ft radius, which is... many people. :smallamused:


*edit2: Hey, we haven't picked the level 5 warmage's advanced learning spell yet! What should it be?

It kicks in at 3rd level and TBH... you have two choices. Darkness or Tenser's Floating Disk. It has to be an Evocation spell, and Warmages automatically get every other 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level Evocation spell Wizards do.

Marnath
2010-10-22, 12:37 AM
Well, there are limits to how useful most feats are for spellcasters, so the 1/day Nuke Button of an Extended (or Widened), Maximized Ice Storm might be good for an army mage. Never know when you won't have time to get a second spell off, right?

I don't remember, do Warmages get knowledges as class skills? If so, Knowledge Devotion could stack nicely on top of Warmage Edge.

Arcana and History only. Sudden empower is at 7th level, sudden maximize is at 20. You might be better off buying them with normal feats, and taking the replacement bonus feat when you get to them?

*edit: misread your post.

Emy
2010-10-22, 12:55 AM
To actually answer the question:

Not counting criticals, 5 hasted Legion Archers would deal an average of 8.5 damage each to 5 different targets.

It lasts for 5 rounds, so that's a total of 212.5 damage, average.



A 5th Level Warmage (with my houserule) could cast a single ice storm into a crowd and deal an average of 21.5 damage to everything in a 40-ft radius, which is... many people. :smallamused:


20ft radius, actually. so, that's potentially around... 28~ medium creatures, if they're all packed in there and I'm mentally drawing my circle correctly on the battle grid? Total: lots of dead stuff. Expanding it to a 40ft radius would be possible, but the Warmage would need Sudden Widen.

If they're pumping Int for Warmage Edge, they might have enough SP to spare to put 5 points in to Arcana (in class) to qualify for Knowledge Devotion, designate Knowledge: Local as a class skill, and max it (for damage vs Humanoids), and 1 into the rest of the creature-related Knowledges. (cross-class)

Proposed Legion Warmage:
Lawful Neutral Human Warmage 5

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 17 (this is enough to get a bonus level 3 spell, and their best attack spell isn't going to allow a save)

Feats:
Sudden Widen
Sudden Maximize
Knowledge Devotion

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana) 5
Knowledge (Local) 8
Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion, The Planes) each 1
Concentration 8
other stuff?

Equipment:
dunno

Jjeinn-tae
2010-10-22, 12:55 AM
I really think giving Warmages spells earlier is by far one of the best things you could do for them balance wise, might be a little dangerous in the hands of players early entering into PrC's though.

Anyways, I thought of an interesting idea, that may or may not really be applicable in game, but you are probably aware of the shield walls Rome liked to do so much. Simulated in game you could have pike formations surrounded by "shield bearers" which essentially just carry around tower shields to give their formation cover. When on defense, it would make formations practically immune to anything that requires line of effect.


Then for The elves, I know they aren't your focus right now, but I thought of a good thing for their elite mounted units. Spoilered to not get in the way if you don't want to deal with it yet. Each one wielding a Yumi and a Naginata would kind of simulate an elite warrior akin to the samurai (well based entirely on it at this point). If you don't have OA, yumi could easily just be a normal longbow (if it has the restriction to not be used on horseback, that's the difference) and a naginata could be a glaive, not a perfect translation but it's simple. Their tactics would essentially be a mobile archery unit, yet fully capable of frontline combat, and even some cavalry charges with the naginata.

Emy
2010-10-22, 01:08 AM
Quoting and modifying so this doesn't get lost at the bottom of the previous page



Proposed Legion Warmage:
Lawful Neutral Human Warmage 5

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 17 (this is enough to get a bonus level 3 spell, and their best attack spell isn't going to allow a save)

Feats:
Sudden Widen
Versatile Spellcaster
Knowledge Devotion

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana) 8
Knowledge (Local) 8
Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion, The Planes) each 1
Concentration 8
Spellcraft 8
Profession (Underwater basketweaving) 8

Equipment:
dunno

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 01:14 AM
It lasts for 5 rounds, so that's a total of 212.5 damage, average.

42.5 damage each on average, targeted on a maximum of 25 targets.


20ft radius, actually.

Misread "40 ft. cylinder."

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 01:27 AM
No PHBII in the campaign, I should've said.

Then tell us that upfront, guys. :smallannoyed:

Rather than making us find out piecemeal.


I dunno, it's a legitimate concern. These guys are chummy with Orcs.

Wouldn't that imply more Boar Cavalry? :smallwink:

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 01:34 AM
Then tell us that upfront, guys. :smallannoyed:

Rather than making us find out piecemeal.

Updated the first post with the material I have.

Yahzi
2010-10-22, 08:09 AM
You might enjoy reading through this old thread:

The Book of Armies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37056)

WhiteShark
2010-10-22, 06:36 PM
In response to Marnath, you mention that Warmage would get three 3rd level spells at 5th (with Psycho's change, which I like a lot and will probably employ in any games I run) but I think that if I were training wizards for the military I would make them Focused Specialists, likely specialized in either Conjuration or Transmutation; that would give them three 3rd level spells to work with. A focused conjurer could cast, say, 3 sleet storms. Or stinking clouds. A focused transmuter would get three Hastes. I think, at 5th level, that the conjurer would be a better choice, but the transmuter would be better eventually.

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 06:52 PM
DMG actually has stats for militiamen... Commoners with 10/11 all around. 'Little to no training' does not exactly equal a Fighter.

Also, I find your numbers a bit exaggerated. Each 7th level character commands 100 5th level ones?! Check the Monster Manual for how elves make their troops, for example.
Also, considering a 5th level character 'rank and file' seems like very high fantasy - I thought your game was more of a horror thing?

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 08:36 PM
DMG actually has stats for militiamen... Commoners with 10/11 all around. 'Little to no training' does not exactly equal a Fighter.

Different standards. *shrug*


Also, I find your numbers a bit exaggerated. Each 7th level character commands 100 5th level ones?! Check the Monster Manual for how elves make their troops, for example.

Um... what? There's no troop arrangements described whatsoever in the MM. Unless you're talking about the "Level 1 Warrior" part. Which I don't care about because it's stupid.


Also, considering a 5th level character 'rank and file' seems like very high fantasy - I thought your game was more of a horror thing?

3rd Level rank-and-file. And "high fantasy" implies high magic. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the strength of the mundane military.

Greenish
2010-10-22, 09:08 PM
Um... what? There's no troop arrangements described whatsoever in the MM. Unless you're talking about the "Level 1 Warrior" part. Which I don't care about because it's stupid.There's the "Organization" part in the stat block. For elves:

Organization:
Squad (2-4), company (11-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 20% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and 3 7th-level captains)

That said, there's no particular reason to follow that if you don't like it.


And "high fantasy" implies high magic. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the strength of the mundane military.High fantasy doesn't necessarily mean high magic (and high magic isn't always high fantasy).

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 09:40 PM
High fantasy doesn't necessarily mean high magic (and high magic isn't always high fantasy).

What does "high fantasy" mean to you, then? :smallconfused:

Greenish
2010-10-22, 10:32 PM
What does "high fantasy" mean to you, then? :smallconfused:In high fantasy, you save the world, in low fantasy, you save the village. It's a matter of scale.

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 10:42 PM
In high fantasy, you save the world, in low fantasy, you save the village. It's a matter of scale.

Then yes, my campaign may qualify as high fantasy in the long run. Doesn't make it not horror.

Greenish
2010-10-22, 10:56 PM
Then yes, my campaign may qualify as high fantasy in the long run. Doesn't make it not horror.I never made such a claim.

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 10:57 PM
Then yes, my campaign may qualify as high fantasy in the long run. Doesn't make it not horror.

Oh, so I think it's alright.
I still think the 'Fighter gets no training' bit really weird, though.

You may be just using 'different standards' but have you checked the DMG's guidelines for creating cities? You get very few characters above 5th level.

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 11:22 PM
I came up with several categories of competancy to determine what level someone should be:

Level 1: Amateur
Anyone with even the basics of a particular class has at least one level. Those who don't are Level 1 Commoners, essentially "classless" characters with no particular training whatsoever.

Level 3: Professional
Anyone who follows their chosen class full-time, such as priests, city guardsmen, professional soldiers, etc.

Level 5: Expert
Those who have reached a level of specialization or just exceptional skill in their profession, such as the elite Templar Knights (Paladins), Heavy Footsoldiers, Guard Captains, etc.

Level 7: Reputable In Their Field
People at this level are officially noteworthy. Chances are, anyone in the area with the same profession has heard of them. These include the infamous Shock Troopers, Commanders, etc.

Level 9: Reputable
Truely elite. At this point, everyone in town knows your name. You're essentially the local celebrity. There are very few professions that regularly have people this skilled. On the other hand, there are two noteable groups in my campaign that require this level of skill to even make it through their basic training.

Level 11: Legendary In Their Field
This is approaching the level of mythos. People at this level are like Miyamoto Musashi; people will be studying your methods for years to come in the hopes of being even a pale imitation of you.

Level 13: Legendary
Mythic. You've offically made the history books. When you speak, kings listen. The Royal Guard and the Chalice Knights hold this lofty position, their mere reputation enough to strike fear in the hearts of their enemies.

Level 15: Cosmically Reputable
You're beyond legendary. Half the Cosmos has heard of you at this point.

Level 17: Cosmically Legendary
When demon lords start worrying when they hear you're in town, you know you've got it made.

Level 19: Divinely Reputable
Congratulations. You've gotten the personal attention of the Gods themselves. Just hope they like what they've heard.

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 11:26 PM
I came up with several categories of competancy to determine what level someone should be:

Looks a bit more fantastic than standard D&D, but if it works for your game, that's fine. This famous article (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html) might help.

Marnath
2010-10-22, 11:35 PM
I like those categories, psycho. I may have to steal those at some point. :smallwink:

*edit: I think I'd rename a few though, past legendary it would be world famous, not cosmically. I feel that would be an epic level thing.

Drakevarg
2010-10-22, 11:41 PM
I like those categories, psycho. I may have to steal those at some point. :smallwink:

Glad you like 'em. :smallamused:


*edit: I think I'd rename a few though, past legendary it would be world famous, not cosmically. I feel that would be an epic level thing.

Well, part of it is that it's the nature of my campaign. Here, the (greater, possibly not the lesser) gods are literally omnipotent and you have no chance of ever winning a scuffle with them. Epic levels are basically just absurdly high powered games the gods play with you. :smalltongue: Hence why epic levels are so absurd.