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Sir Swindle89
2010-10-21, 06:55 AM
For starters I understand that in general templates are bad for optimization.

One of my friends wants to start an Epic campaign starting at level 20. I have decided that i want to play a badass werewolf character. I think i heard some one say they wanted to play a level 20 monk. So i think i can stay relevent to the party with any reasonably decent build.

I basically want the character to be a werewolf Malcom X as far as roleplay is concerned.

For classes/templates i was thinking 3werewolf/ 1giantborn or feral/ x druid*/ y some melee class/ z warshaper/ w kensai

* the druid levels would be in that variant from UA where you sac wild shape to get monk and ranger stuff. I specifically don't want wildshape, i have werewolf for that.

i went with natural werewolf there, i could go afflicted but prolly not. I threw the other template(s) in there form more claw damage and to represent that he's the Alpha werewolf.

Warshaper was an obvious choice i feel, it's the only PrC that has synergy with the template its self.

I thought of Kensai because Ki Warlord kinda fits the vibe i want the character to have, and i can choose my claws as my kensai wepon.


I'm prolly gonna buy a demiplane to have as a base of operations and i'm going to take leadership for my pack/werewolf army.

If we point buy stats it will be 32 point buy.

Basically the goals for crating this character were to kill folks with my claws and teeth, be a werewolf, and have a pack. All while keeping the character viable as an intellectual leader.

Any suggestions on feats or other classes would be apreciated.

Eldariel
2010-10-21, 07:13 AM
You don't need more templates. Natural Lycanthrope is +3. Guess what's the great thing about that? You can buy it off by level 20, which makes you far less totally screwed than most Templated types. That'd leave you around level 19 well on your way to 20 (due to lower level chars getting more XP), which is nice since you also have Creature HD to deal with from Werewolf. Level Adjustment Buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) for your perusal.

Now then, what I said about no templates doesn't mean you can't be the Alpha Werewolf; having ~20 HDs, pointbuy stats and class levels will more than make you the nastiest wolf in the house. You got to put up with 2 HD and that's about it. Assuming you get to be level 19 with Buyoff, that puts you at 17 class levels, yeaaah.


So, Druid without animal companions, wildshape and other bull****, ya? Try these babies on for size:
Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger)
Warrior Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid)

So ye lose:
Animal Companion - Who cares, ya? If you want to be a pack leader, you'll want more than one anyways. Leadership, Handle Animal or similars deal with that kinda crap.

Spontaneous Casting - Whatever, don't think you'd go summoning crazy anyways and if you would, you could just prepare 'em.

Wild Empathy - -4, no biggies. You're a Werewolf, not a Wolf.

Wild Shape - Just as planned.

Armor & Shield Proficiency - Yeah, but read below.


Ye gain:
Rage - la Barbarian, except no Greater/Mighty. Sure, whatever; nice free bonus. Seems pretty in character for a lycanthrope too; Blood Frenzy or whatever ya wanna call it. Plenty o' times per day too, and on 17 you get the Tireless Rage.

Tracking & Swift Tracker - Seems given for a Werewolf. Of course you can track, hell, you have Scent for that.

Monk's Wisdom Bonus to AC - Hell yeah, who needs armor?

Favored Enemy - I'm sure you can come up with something. Undead/Vampires? :smallcool:

Fast Movement - la Monk and Barbarian. So you move really fast. Doesn't seem bad.


And you could further trade the Barbarian's Rage for the options like Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) or Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) if they feel more appropriate. And you could trade Barbarian's Fast Movement for Pounce [Complete Champion] if you feel so inclined; doesn't seem bad either.

So what do I suggest? Keep it simple. Druid 17, apply both variants and whatever variants to Barbarian abilities you feel like. Feel free to buff away with your Druid Spells (Bite of the WereX line of buffs is nice [Spell Compendium] and simple stuff like Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin, etc. is obvious). Get your loads of goods. Go to town. Oh, and don't forget to pick up Wolf Berserker [Unapproachable East] and Improved Trip 'cause tripping is somewhat iconic for Wolves (Wolf Berserker bypasses the 13 Int requirements). Only makes sense you're damn good at it.


And yeah, you're pretty strong if you wanna use the full extent of your abilities but that's the beauty of casting; you get to choose exactly how strong you want to be!

EDIT: Yeah, you could quicken Bite of the Weretiger that way. Gets you +12 Strength, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +5 Natural Armor, Claws & Power Attack + Blind-Fight. Iz nice.

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-21, 08:15 AM
So, Druid without animal companions, wildshape and other bull****, ya? Try these babies on for size:
Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger)
Warrior Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid)


Ya warrior druid was the one i was refering to it's untitled in UA. i had avenger vetoed in my head but that was probably befor i realized i can take leadership to get a "pack".

Also i completely forgot about buy off, thx for the reminder :)

As far as going 17 levels in druid that seems silly to me, granted i only have the SRD here at work so spells are limited, i lose interest at about 6th level spells and they stop supporting the character at about 3rd level spells. I don't know where that weretiger thing is from but useing a feat to get quicken spell seems silly. By level 20(19) i can prolly just cross class take UMD and get a wand/staff of weretiger thing (or take 1 rogue and able learner it)

One of my big worries was that i don't get more attacks with my natural wepons so increasing their size and damage would be benificial hence all the other stuff i mentioned in the OP

Eldariel
2010-10-21, 09:11 AM
Ya warrior druid was the one i was refering to it's untitled in UA. i had avenger vetoed in my head but that was probably befor i realized i can take leadership to get a "pack".

Also i completely forgot about buy off, thx for the reminder :)

As far as going 17 levels in druid that seems silly to me, granted i only have the SRD here at work so spells are limited, i lose interest at about 6th level spells and they stop supporting the character at about 3rd level spells. I don't know where that weretiger thing is from but useing a feat to get quicken spell seems silly. By level 20(19) i can prolly just cross class take UMD and get a wand/staff of weretiger thing (or take 1 rogue and able learner it)

One of my big worries was that i don't get more attacks with my natural wepons so increasing their size and damage would be benificial hence all the other stuff i mentioned in the OP

Spell Compendium has the Bite of X-line; excellent buffs for a Druid. It also increases the dice of your weapon dice just fine. Quickening isn't really bad; swift actions to buff are always better than wasting a full standard action. Makes it seem like you're at full strength all the time.

Really, if you can roll Spell Compendium, Druid 17 is easy to make work especially if you get Animal-type so you can cast Nature's Avatar, Animal Growth and so on on yourself. Allows you to become a lean mean killing machine if you feel so inclined.


Oh, and Draconomicon has Rapid Strike line which gains you iteratives with a natural weapon you have a pair of, e.g. your Claws. Might wanna check it out. Also, the Whirling Frenzy-variant I linked offers an extra attack so you could take an extra Bite out of that. And Nature's Avatar would grant that haste bonus attack for one more bite (not to mention +10 on to hit and damage, and 1d8 extra HP per caster level; did I mention it's a 9th level swift action to cast spell for 1 min/level?).

There's also nice Brilliant Aura spell on level 8 which makes all allied (including yours) weapons Brilliant Energy so they penetrate armor and all that. Pretty nice. And a Phantom Wolf spell which...well, calls a Phantom Wolf. And Tortoise Shell for epic Natural Armor (+8 at this point). And Aura of Vitality for some untyped stat bonuses for the whole team, and all that good jazz. But yeah, PHB only would be kinda meh.

Dimers
2010-10-21, 10:27 AM
For classes/templates i was thinking 3werewolf/ 1giantborn or feral/ x druid*/ y some melee class/ z warshaper/ w kensai

In addition to the +3 LA, be aware that you're spending two levels on wolf racial HD. And that's no fun. However ... if you spend four levels on racial HD instead of 2, it makes the "base creature" Large, which modifies your hybrid form by +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 more natural armor, and Large size with all that implies (e.g. reach). That's really not a bad expenditure of two levels, I would say.

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-21, 10:27 AM
Really, if you can roll Spell Compendium, Druid 17 is easy to make work especially if you get Animal-type so you can cast Nature's Avatar, Animal Growth and so on on yourself. Allows you to become a lean mean killing machine if you feel so inclined.

he's by definition a shapechanger, it's really hard to template down from there.(i suppose i could ritual it, i think Sav Species can do that)

I'll look into the rest, thanks

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-21, 10:30 AM
In addition to the +3 LA, be aware that you're spending two levels on wolf racial HD. And that's no fun. However ... if you spend four levels on racial HD instead of 2, it makes the "base creature" Large, which modifies your hybrid form by +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 more natural armor, and Large size with all that implies (e.g. reach). That's really not a bad expenditure of two levels, I would say.

Thats why i put giant born up there, +1 LA makes you large after you have like 6 HD or some thing and lets you cast enlarge person on your self, plus some stats

Urpriest
2010-10-21, 10:35 AM
he's by definition a shapechanger, it's really hard to template down from there.(i suppose i could ritual it, i think Sav Species can do that)

I'll look into the rest, thanks

These are both wrong, actually. His subtype is shapechanger, not his type, unless you're playing 3.0. However, as a werewolf he's a humanoid, not an animal.

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-21, 11:05 AM
These are both wrong, actually. His subtype is shapechanger, not his type, unless you're playing 3.0. However, as a werewolf he's a humanoid, not an animal.

i don't think you can get down to animal either way unless those rituals work the way i think they do, I know they can add/subtract subtypes but i'm not sure on types w/o changing the actual species

could do an awakened gorilla lycanthrope :P

Eldariel
2010-10-21, 12:00 PM
Meh, if you can do nothing else you can cast Shapechange turning into e.g. a Dire Wolf becoming an animal and use your Shapechanging power to assume your normal-looking form again. 10 min/level with Rod of Extend Spell is plenty.

jebob
2010-10-21, 12:22 PM
If you want to be a great werewolf, just take 20 levels in commoner. None of the other players will suspect anything...

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-21, 12:46 PM
Meh, if you can do nothing else you can cast Shapechange turning into e.g. a Dire Wolf becoming an animal and use your Shapechanging power to assume your normal-looking form again. 10 min/level with Rod of Extend Spell is plenty.

if i was going to do somthing like that i'd just say **** it and play an awakened wolf druid.

Which i won't do..... for role play reasons:smallwink: