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JackOfAllGeeks
2010-10-21, 12:24 PM
Hey all, sorry if this has been asked and answered elsewhere but I've been scouring the forum for the last couple weeks and haven't found what i'm looking for...

I'm starting a Shadowrun game, and one of the players wants to build a Hacker. He's really enthusiastic about it and dived into the books to tweak his gear and skills. He decided it would be helpful if he had an Agent program to cover his back in Matrix combat, and then decided that he'd want a commlink to run his Persona on, a second commlink to run his Agent out of (to avoid Response penalties and Subscription caps), and a third "dummy" commlink to run in passive mode as a decoy.

The trouble we're having now is that the rules seem vague at best on how to handle programs split between Personas, Agents, and Commlinks. How many times does he have to purchace Analyze 5? Does he need to purchase Stealth and Armor twice, for his Persona and for his Agent? If he buys Blackhammer 5 once, can he transfer it between his Persona and his Agent as needed? How's this all work? Can he run his Agent several times (the way you or I might run several copies of Notepad even if we only "have" one), or does he need to buy it again if he wants another helper?

Thanks for any help.

Tehnar
2010-10-21, 12:33 PM
I am a little weak on the Matrix-fu, but these are my opinions:

He has to purchase programs for each instance he is running them in. If he wanted analyze both on his agent and himself, he would need to buy it two times. (Or he could crack the copy protection, and then distribute it to as many people/agents as he wants, but then the program would decay). This is if you are using Unwired. Using just the core book, there is no option for cracking copy protection, and each program would have to be bought individually.

I think you can get away with purchasing one set of a program, and moving them between your agent and yourself (but only one would be able to use it at the same time).

Running parallel commlinks for that reason gets expensive, fast. I think it is much better to invest in good programs and a kick ass commlink then have two parallel commlinks.

hiryuu
2010-10-21, 02:18 PM
And remember to not let yourself get caught with more than one commlink on your person. Even if you're just walking around town.

Don't forget there are options for writing your own. I know our hacker was running around with a good number of rating 5 programs that he didn't pay for.

JackOfAllGeeks
2010-10-21, 02:30 PM
"And remember to not let yourself get caught with more than one commlink on your person. Even if you're just walking around town."

I thought the things were like ipods or cellphones; having two is illegal?

Daremonai
2010-10-21, 05:42 PM
As I understand it, your commlink contains all of your personal information, etc and doubles as ID. Carrying two around may not necessarily be illegal, but carrying around two commlinks with different fake identities on them may earn you some attention from the law.

Other than that, I did think that multiple commlinks were ok - in one game I joined for a short while, I was going to acquire/set up a cheap commlink with some agent software and a camera and use it to watch over a safehouse while we were out.

hiryuu
2010-10-21, 06:58 PM
It's less like an i-pod/cell phone and more like your birth certificate, social security, laptop, cell phone, i-pod, x-box, passport, and driver's license all in one. I don't know about anyone else, but I live in a place where having your social security card and birth certificate on you in duplicate is "probable cause," and in SR all cops are corrupt and looking for an excuse because none of them work for an accountable authority.

Imagine, for a moment, that you live in third world country where all cops are rent a cops, and they all have no accountability at all, and are all itching to arrest or shoot someone because it looks good on their byline. Imagine the cops have just noticed someone carrying two or more wallet/i-pod/laptops, at least one of which is top of the line, and it's prepped for loading agent software. Each one has a social security card and driver's license in it, even though they're the same one. Then they run that person's ID and it only exists in those two wallets. That's suspicious behavior. If it's the mid-afternoon and things are slow, expect to be delayed, if not brought in for "questioning." If it's 2 AM? You're probably in real trouble.

Tehnar
2010-10-21, 07:08 PM
Well, you obviously won't keep more then one commlink in active/passive mode. Hell the others might be turned off most of the time, and they don't need to transmit a SIN.

I personally recommend a cheap "public" commlink that displays your SIN when needed, is full of junkmail, spam, social networks, bla bla, so you don't seem suspicious.

The second one, expensive, customized and usually implanted is for the shadow work.

And then you have a couple of disposable ones to take care of communication with Mr. J or the other team members.

hiryuu
2010-10-21, 07:10 PM
As a side note, a lot of the book OPERATOR examples are terrible. The guys writing the book do not know how to criminal.

Case in point: Wireless World chapter examples (it's on pages 218-219 of my copy, which is the collector's edition)

Example #1: Nothing weird here, 'cept Alex is loaded down with gizmos and doesn't have 'trode paste or some AR gloves and is using the manual controls on the commlink, which is a little odd.

Example #2: Doc Sloth is astrally perceiving in the Inferno. A spirit manifests and politely reminds him to stop. He ignores it, and astrally scans Mr. Johnson. Vlad turns on his Wired Reflexes in a runner bar. Two spirits manifest and bisect him. Doc Sloth is told that he is no longer allowed in the bar and must leave. Mr. Johnson sighs and gets a drink.

Example #3: If you flip on private/hidden mode and a police drone stops you and says "hey, that's illegal here," hacking it will get you caught and should get you kicked off your team. Just pay your fine, apologize, and keep walking. No suspicions will be raised. If you do feel like hacking it, don't nuke the OS, that should leave your signature all over it. Just dump the results of an image search for "face" or the profile photos your commlink took of everyone you saw this morning into the same data packet your face picture is in. Let the *******s dig it out manually, if they can even do that. Hacking a drone like this is the equivalent of being pulled over for speeding and then shooting the cop in the face. How stupid is that?

hiryuu
2010-10-21, 07:11 PM
Well, you obviously won't keep more then one commlink in active/passive mode. Hell the others might be turned off most of the time, and they don't need to transmit a SIN.

I personally recommend a cheap "public" commlink that displays your SIN when needed, is full of junkmail, spam, social networks, bla bla, so you don't seem suspicious.

The second one, expensive, customized and usually implanted is for the shadow work.

And then you have a couple of disposable ones to take care of communication with Mr. J or the other team members.

That's the way to do it. Any commlinks you're not using actively should be shut off or in another container.

JackOfAllGeeks
2010-10-21, 08:01 PM
As I understand it, your commlink contains all of your personal information, etc and doubles as ID.

Right, I knew that; so getting caught with two isn't the problem, it's getting caught with two that have conflicting ID.


in SR all cops are corrupt and looking for an excuse because none of them work for an accountable authority.

Yeah, I guess that's one way you could run it, but -- blasphemy, I know -- I don't feel like being that much of a jerk. The way I see it, not ALL cops are going to be crooked, and just because they're rent-a-cops doesn't mean there's no accountability. There's probably a truckload of paperwork to fill out if you kill a guy, and being corporate I'm sure they'll keep a tight watch on expenses like ammunition expenditures and medical bills (for the cops, not their victims). I intend to set up a world of rules, and my Runner's job is going to be making the rules work for them.

But that's kind of off-topic, I guess.

hiryuu
2010-10-21, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I guess that's one way you could run it, but -- blasphemy, I know -- I don't feel like being that much of a jerk. The way I see it, not ALL cops are going to be crooked, and just because they're rent-a-cops doesn't mean there's no accountability. There's probably a truckload of paperwork to fill out if you kill a guy, and being corporate I'm sure they'll keep a tight watch on expenses like ammunition expenditures and medical bills (for the cops, not their victims). I intend to set up a world of rules, and my Runner's job is going to be making the rules work for them.

The reason there's little to no accountability is that every time you step onto corporate territory, be it walking onto their sidewalk or entering their mall, you agree to obey their laws, and they decide what the laws are. If you disobey, they are free to enact whatever punishments are applicable to those laws. If Saeder-Krupp has a law that only paying customers use the bathroom, then that is how it is (none of them are that... draconian, if you pardon the pun, but that is how it works). That is the world of rules, and the rules are stacked against you. You cannot use the rules to help you because the rules are what the dominant shareholder say they are.

Now, on the other hand, remember also that Runners are a subculture, and will have their own rules and regulations. For example, a Johnson whose runners disappear or who tries to pull a fast one? He will never get work again, and will probably find his face all over the shadow networks. A team member known for coming back from a run all alone more than once, even if he's innocent? He'll probably be shot eventually, and be avoided at best. Even if other runner teams know he's innocent of any backstabbing, he's going to get a rep as a "Grim Reaper." This does mean you can run Johnson's background through the network. You won't expect a name, of course, but I bet runners have a "star rating" if you poke around. Red suited Johnson with a smiley face pin has a good rep, pays well, and is liberal to your team with information? Four and a half stars on the net. Black flying toasters tie Johnson? Two and a half stars. Tread carefully, but he seems ok. It makes sense that they would, given that runners have enough of a culture to have their own slang in the information age.

JackOfAllGeeks
2010-10-22, 06:35 AM
I humbly disagree, but it sounds like a difference in genre interpretation. The way I look at it, Shadowrun (and cyberpunk generally) is more about Capitalism taken to the extreme -- and if that's the case, then everything comes down to the balance sheet. Knight Errant doesn't not-patrol the poor sections because it's dangerous, but because it's unprofitable. Other rent-a-cops subcontracting to a Megacorp will enforce the corp's rules because that's in their contract and that's what they're paid to do -- but the corp isn't going to pay them more than is profitable, and the cops aren't going to work for free*. Even if a corp has a private in-house security force, they're going to have their own balance sheet, they're going to account for every bullet shot, and they're going to make sure their billable hours come up right -- no overtime except for cause, so you can bet those shift changes are GOING to hapen. Even if the rules are stacked against you, you can use them to your advantage because there's no system that can't be gamed; that's the point.

*The exception, of course, is the Lone Star Officer who does more than his job calls for, and goes out of his way to make sure "Justice" is served. Of course, he's breaking the rules, too, so he's going to be reprimanded and he's going to be fighting the system, too.

Zen Master
2010-10-22, 07:05 AM
The reason there's little to no accountability is that every time you step onto corporate territory, be it walking onto their sidewalk or entering their mall, you agree to obey their laws, and they decide what the laws are. If you disobey, they are free to enact whatever punishments are applicable to those laws. If Saeder-Krupp has a law that only paying customers use the bathroom, then that is how it is (none of them are that... draconian, if you pardon the pun, but that is how it works). That is the world of rules, and the rules are stacked against you. You cannot use the rules to help you because the rules are what the dominant shareholder say they are.

Hm ... I disagree.

In my view, the nation states still run the law making. Otherwise, the mesh of jurisdictions would be impossible, and stepping into the supermarket would put you out of reach to one rent-a-cop company, and within the reach of another.

No - the laws are nationwide. However, as an employee of Saeder-Krupp, the laws of the UCAS apply to you only in the same way that the laws of the US apply to me (I'm from Denmark). In other words, if I get convicted of a crime in the US, I'll most likely be extradited to Denmark - and serve my punishment here, in some form acceptable to the Danish government.

In the case of Saeder-Krupp, I might get either a raise or a pay reduction, depending on whether the crime I committed was deemed necessary or not, and whether my objective was succesful.

JackOfAllGeeks
2010-10-22, 07:12 AM
Hm ... I disagree.

That's a much cleaner way to do things, I think I'll incorporate that into my game. Though, there are provisions for foreign nationals to be detained and tried in the offended country occationally -- it's why some people can't travel to, say, England for fear of being arrested at the airport.

Tyger
2010-10-22, 07:49 AM
Hm ... I disagree.

In my view, the nation states still run the law making. Otherwise, the mesh of jurisdictions would be impossible, and stepping into the supermarket would put you out of reach to one rent-a-cop company, and within the reach of another.

No - the laws are nationwide. However, as an employee of Saeder-Krupp, the laws of the UCAS apply to you only in the same way that the laws of the US apply to me (I'm from Denmark). In other words, if I get convicted of a crime in the US, I'll most likely be extradited to Denmark - and serve my punishment here, in some form acceptable to the Danish government.

In the case of Saeder-Krupp, I might get either a raise or a pay reduction, depending on whether the crime I committed was deemed necessary or not, and whether my objective was succesful.

Except in Shadowrun, corporate extra-territoriality has been around for a long, long time. So when you are on Saeder-Krupp land, you are subject to their laws. Not the laws of the, for example, UCAS. While it might be expedient for S-K to extradite you back to UCAS territory, they will have the right to try and convict you based on their laws and UCAS can't do much about it. Now, if you aren't worth the time and money it would take to try you, then they could just kick you out - or put a bullet in your braincase - after all, you likely don't legally exist due to your SR status.

Corporate extra-territoriality is the same in SR (functionally) as an embassy in today's society. German laws are of no force and effect on Canadian embassy grounds in Berlin. German police can't enter, and if they could, they have no legal authority to enforce German laws on those grounds. Now, Canadian officials could hand over someone to German police, but its very unlikely, and would require a Canadian court order to do so. The Germans can make the request, but its usually ignored.


stepping into the supermarket would put you out of reach to one rent-a-cop company, and within the reach of another.

Yup, and its a tried and true method for many runners to avoid getting arrested. Knight Errant on your tail, but you have good relations with Aztecnology? Step onto AZ property, and KE can't follow you. Granted, try to leave and you'll quickly find yourself in custody, but there you have it.

That said, not every corp is granted (if I recall correctly) these rights. I think its only the AAA corps, of which there are only a handful. The nation/city laws will cover the majority of the lands. Just not all of them.

JackOfAllGeeks
2010-10-22, 08:40 AM
That said, not every corp is granted (if I recall correctly) these rights. I think its only the AAA corps, of which there are only a handful. The nation/city laws will cover the majority of the lands. Just not all of them.

By the books it's AA and AAA Corps which, IIRC, means International corporations and Mega Corps. So jumping into a Wal-Mart or Meyers won't save you, but a McDonalds might. The megacorps don't own everything.

Zen Master
2010-10-22, 10:05 AM
Except in Shadowrun, corporate extra-territoriality has been around for a long, long time. So when you are on Saeder-Krupp land, you are subject to their laws. Not the laws of the, for example, UCAS. While it might be expedient for S-K to extradite you back to UCAS territory, they will have the right to try and convict you based on their laws and UCAS can't do much about it. Now, if you aren't worth the time and money it would take to try you, then they could just kick you out - or put a bullet in your braincase - after all, you likely don't legally exist due to your SR status.

Corporate extra-territoriality is the same in SR (functionally) as an embassy in today's society. German laws are of no force and effect on Canadian embassy grounds in Berlin. German police can't enter, and if they could, they have no legal authority to enforce German laws on those grounds. Now, Canadian officials could hand over someone to German police, but its very unlikely, and would require a Canadian court order to do so. The Germans can make the request, but its usually ignored.

Yup, and its a tried and true method for many runners to avoid getting arrested. Knight Errant on your tail, but you have good relations with Aztecnology? Step onto AZ property, and KE can't follow you. Granted, try to leave and you'll quickly find yourself in custody, but there you have it.

That said, not every corp is granted (if I recall correctly) these rights. I think its only the AAA corps, of which there are only a handful. The nation/city laws will cover the majority of the lands. Just not all of them.

Yea - I still disagree.

Now, if we're talking a corporate compound - their regional headquarters could be an example - then I'd agree with you. For instance, I'd assume the arcology is the Renraku regional HQ in the Sea-Tac area, and in that place, Renraku law holds priority.

But say the american embassy decides to buy a house in Hellerup (a suburb of Copenhagen) - that doesn't mean american laws are in effect there, that would still be in Denmark.

So no - runners popping into the supermarket just get arrested. Popping into the Aztecnology HQ is another matter.

Furthermore, the need to keep up good relations means that you respect the laws of your neighbors and relations. If a UCAS citizen is killed on Aztecnology premises, they had better solve the crime - or let in UCAS investigators. Triple A corporations aren't superpowers, and can still have their behinds handed to them by nationstates. In principle.

Tehnar
2010-10-22, 10:15 AM
Extraterritorial property has to be clearly marked, has to be a very specific area and usually its a non high traffic area.

Most of shops, real estate, offices and so on belonging to a AA or AAA corp are not extraterritorial soil. For example Stuffer Shack belongs to Aztechnology, however you are not crossing into Aztech territory every time you go and get soy snacks.

Extraterritoriality is usually reserved for high security areas, bases of operations, secret labs, factories, etc.

JackOfAllGeeks
2010-10-22, 10:42 AM
If a UCAS citizen is killed on Aztecnology premises, they had better solve the crime - or let in UCAS investigators.


Now, if you aren't worth the time and money it would take to try you, then they could just kick you out - or put a bullet in your braincase - after all, you likely don't legally exist due to your SR status.

So here's an interesting thought. Most Shadowrunners are assumed to be SINless, but then they also say you can't so much as ride the bus without a SIN. So even SINless Runners are going to have fake SINs, which is to say that even if they ARE "non-entities," they LOOK like real people. So it at least LOOKS like Aztechnology just killed a UCAS citizen. (Imagine being the guy who's SIN you snagged, being informed that he's been killed in connection with illegal activity.)

But what are the implcations if they aren't broadcasting a SIN (as should be the case on a run). Just because you don't see one doesn't mean there isn't one, right?

Acromos and Tehnar make good points re: extraterritoriality, clearly marked zones, very much Embassy-like. Though if you go to the source, like Neuromancer and Snow Crash, it does sound more like what hiryuu and Tyger are describing.

Tyger
2010-10-22, 11:00 AM
Yea - I still disagree.

Now, if we're talking a corporate compound - their regional headquarters could be an example - then I'd agree with you. For instance, I'd assume the arcology is the Renraku regional HQ in the Sea-Tac area, and in that place, Renraku law holds priority.

But say the american embassy decides to buy a house in Hellerup (a suburb of Copenhagen) - that doesn't mean american laws are in effect there, that would still be in Denmark.

So no - runners popping into the supermarket just get arrested. Popping into the Aztecnology HQ is another matter.

Furthermore, the need to keep up good relations means that you respect the laws of your neighbors and relations. If a UCAS citizen is killed on Aztecnology premises, they had better solve the crime - or let in UCAS investigators. Triple A corporations aren't superpowers, and can still have their behinds handed to them by nationstates. In principle.

While you are free to disagree, the printed SR materials support my argument. Now I am AFB at the moment and will verify when I get home tonight, but I am quite certain that all corporate property is granted the same extraterritoriality, so yes, Aztecnology law applies in StufferShak. That said, many/most/all? of the corps have various extradition agreements, and cooperation agreements with other corps.

For example, I'd be willing to wager that Aztecnology has a policing agreement with Ares to cover its "non-essential" properties in Seattle. So if you hold up a StufferShak, a KE police force will arrive and attempt to arrest you. The agreement would likely involve you being tried under UCAS law as well - its not worth AZ's time, so they negotiate that sort of thing away. Now, if you were known to, and wanted by, AZ and you got caught holding up that Shak, they'd probably have a clause that allows them to retain jurisdiction and then "try" you according to AZ law, which essentially would devolve into determining which god your still beating heart will be offered to. :smallbiggrin:

Again, if folks have a written source which disputes this, I'd be happy to learn of it, and I'll look it up myself when I get access to the paper tonight.

Zen Master
2010-10-23, 02:28 PM
While you are free to disagree, the printed SR materials support my argument. Now I am AFB at the moment and will verify when I get home tonight, but I am quite certain that all corporate property is granted the same extraterritoriality, so yes, Aztecnology law applies in StufferShak. That said, many/most/all? of the corps have various extradition agreements, and cooperation agreements with other corps.

For example, I'd be willing to wager that Aztecnology has a policing agreement with Ares to cover its "non-essential" properties in Seattle. So if you hold up a StufferShak, a KE police force will arrive and attempt to arrest you. The agreement would likely involve you being tried under UCAS law as well - its not worth AZ's time, so they negotiate that sort of thing away. Now, if you were known to, and wanted by, AZ and you got caught holding up that Shak, they'd probably have a clause that allows them to retain jurisdiction and then "try" you according to AZ law, which essentially would devolve into determining which god your still beating heart will be offered to. :smallbiggrin:

Again, if folks have a written source which disputes this, I'd be happy to learn of it, and I'll look it up myself when I get access to the paper tonight.

Ok - honestly, I quite simply don't care what the books say if my logic tells me they should to say something else. That said, I've read the books several times, and I recall nothing stating that all Corp property is extraterritorial. They frequently use the term corporate compound, however. Which is what I take to mean regional HQ.

Be that as it may - you view it differently, and thats perfectly valid, whether it's by the book or not.

I just had this thought of a corporate funded UN, doing military interventions on behalf of suppressed populations - in exchange for trade concessions for the corps. Good fun, that.