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Lyra Reynolds
2010-10-21, 01:19 PM
Advice and/or tips needed please!

I play in a D&D group which plays on msn, because we don't all live in the same city so actually meeting for game nights is difficult. We've been having some problems with combat: it's very hard to figure out where everybody is standing without a battle grid. We've tried several online grid programs, but those never worked out for various reasons. We're now trying to figure out a way to make combat, and especially everybody's position, easier to visualise without slowing the game down or having to repeat your position every turn.

Our DM found this post (http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/2010/10/tactical-moves-in-combat-positioning.html), which mostly just confused us.
Another option that was suggested was Final Fantasy style: the mobs are lined up directly opposite the party, and we just attack. The problem with this is that we have a sorcerer and a rogue. The sorcerer is far too much out in the open, and the rogue won't be able to flank and thus not use her sneak attack, which is the best move she has.
A third option is to use a tank, who is the only one whose AC matters as the mobs will only attack him, with the rest supporting him. If the mob hits, he hits one of the supporting members. If he only just misses, he hits the tank, and if he really misses, he actually misses. The problem here is that our tank is also our main healer (a cleric), so if the tank's down we're doubly screwed.

Currently we use a system of the mobs attacking one person who looks the most threatening (= the cleric), but when one of the other party members do enough damage to threaten the mobs, they attack him or her (too).
It just needs a huge amount of description, which takes up time.

So a not too complex, fast way to determine position in online gaming without the use of a grid, and keeping in mind that we have a sorcerer, rogue, cleric (who is both tank and healer) and a monk.

Thanks in advance! :)

Kaww
2010-10-21, 01:29 PM
Maybe you could do something like a chess board? Have the squares marked with letters and numbers (a-z, 1-30) if you have a need for 52x100 try (a-z + A-Z, 1-100). The DM should send to all of you the dungeon layout and every player may have a battle grid for himself/herself.

My .02$

Tyndmyr
2010-10-21, 01:30 PM
Use something like vassal to chat. It has a map built in, that anyone can move and see stuff on.

It also has dice stuff, if you're into online rolls.

PopcornMage
2010-10-21, 01:31 PM
Hex maps? :smallamused:

You could always try a video camera pointed at a grid map, if you wanted?

Other than that, just try different software till you get something.

TheEye
2010-10-21, 02:55 PM
I'm glad to hear your GM found my post, but sorry that I just managed to confuse everybody!

I have tried to be more clear in this (http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/2010/10/tactical-moves-in-combat-positiong.html) post. Let me know if there's still something unclear.

Let me do the executive summary. I'd love to have all of you to check out my blog, but I won't force you to.

The idea with positioning is that you only need to keep track of whom are engaged with whom. You just remember which guy you are fighting, and you roll dice when you want that to change. Far less to visualize.

For the GM it means some book keeping, but it will be easier when it don't have to be shared online.

Makes sense?

/andreas

ffone
2010-10-21, 04:46 PM
Maybe you could do something like a chess board? Have the squares marked with letters and numbers (a-z, 1-30) if you have a need for 52x100 try (a-z + A-Z, 1-100). The DM should send to all of you the dungeon layout and every player may have a battle grid for himself/herself.

My .02$


+1 to this. Keep track of each character's XY coordinates. If the players have relatively good spatial reasoning skills, they can figure out distances, and AoOs, accordingly.

For large creatures, you'll need to keep track of two squares (choose any two opposite corners, that'll define it).

Even when you do have a grid, this is useful if aerial combat comes up, for determining the Z (elevation) coordinate.

This 'mental map' may be hard for some people, but it has the important attribute that it's objectively defined and shared information - disputes can always be resolved by carefully counting it out.

Also, ASCII maps are fun if you have a fixed-width font medium.

Also, kindly discourage players from using reach / Combat Reflexes type builds (but don't nerf them if they already have). And if you do PBP aka 'not in real time' combat, encourage players to let the DM resolve their AoOs for them.

Susano-wo
2010-10-21, 08:13 PM
And if they can't visualise it, they should be able to draw a grid on a piece of paper and use coins, etc to give relative positions.

Kallisti
2010-10-21, 08:19 PM
In my groups in real life, we often just wing it. The DM describes the area, and everyone does their best to visualize it. If you're not quite sure you know where something is supposed to be, just ask. It works surprisingly well.

Or I could give you the blank grid Deadly used to make the maps for this game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9572055#post9572055), since he was kind enough to share it with me. Making maps in Inkscape is a bit of a pain, but works really well for play-by-post.

sparkles
2010-10-23, 11:23 AM
Another player in the same game here.

Viualising or drawing maps is not a problem in our campaign. We might even be a bit too good at it, which is a whole new way of driving the DM crazy.

We also thought about using grids, the chessboard idea came up several times too. I guess the problem with this is mostly that we play a city-campaign, and the grid is just not sufficient for our roof climbing and other frollocing around.

I guess something like an online drawing board would work the best, where we can see the real-time changes the DM or another player would make using our wacom boards or something, but where to find something like that?

The clear-up on the blog post does help though, so thanks for thast.

kyoryu
2010-10-23, 02:49 PM
Maptool? (http://rptools.net/)

You can use it without all of the frameworks, and it's pretty lightweight at that point - basically just a virtual board.

Pixiedragon
2010-10-25, 08:02 AM
[yay another player of the same game posting]

Maptools would be perfect, yes. Except that for some reason it's not working.

It's no problem to host a game on a LAN, then everyone can connect. But for some reason it's impossible to connect ANY computer outside the home network. I'm sure it must have a good reason but all 'normal' solutions to that have failed up until now. So after spending hours to get it working it got abandoned because, even if we could get it to work, it might require some technical insight not all players have.

Douglas
2010-10-25, 08:56 AM
[yay another player of the same game posting]

Maptools would be perfect, yes. Except that for some reason it's not working.

It's no problem to host a game on a LAN, then everyone can connect. But for some reason it's impossible to connect ANY computer outside the home network. I'm sure it must have a good reason but all 'normal' solutions to that have failed up until now. So after spending hours to get it working it got abandoned because, even if we could get it to work, it might require some technical insight not all players have.
Sounds like a problem with port forwarding. You need to configure your router to forward port 51234 to your computer. This website (http://portforward.com/) should help guide you through how to do it. Only the host needs to do this, so don't worry about not everyone having enough technical expertise.

FelixG
2010-10-25, 09:41 AM
[yay another player of the same game posting]

Maptools would be perfect, yes. Except that for some reason it's not working.

It's no problem to host a game on a LAN, then everyone can connect. But for some reason it's impossible to connect ANY computer outside the home network. I'm sure it must have a good reason but all 'normal' solutions to that have failed up until now. So after spending hours to get it working it got abandoned because, even if we could get it to work, it might require some technical insight not all players have.

Alternatively you could try Hamachi that way the computers think they are on a LAN even if they are connected via the intarweb

Quietus
2010-10-25, 10:16 AM
I've simply found that tactical combat isn't really well represented in PbP, at least without the use of tools and extensive, generally poorly drawn maps. When you're in combat, you should have a general idea of the lay of the land, and use descriptive/cinematic situations rather than "Knight takes Queen at E4" style tactics. If the Rogue wants to get behind a target to flank, either they have to have some spare movement (and the space needed) to skirt combat and avoid AoO's, or they can Tumble. If they make their tumble check or spend the extra movement, they're flanking. The Sorcerer might, instead of picking a square X back and X to the side, simply say "I'm standing X feet back from the combat, keeping a clear line of fire to do Y". You, as the DM, have to decide if the area they're in allows such a thing.. if they're in a dense forest, you would decide if you want to make it so the forest they're in means either the sorcerer can get his 40 feet of distance and still Lightning Bolt the opponent without catching the rogue in the area, or if he'd have to move 20 feet closer to get the clear line. It means less tactical "Well, how can I angle this perfectly" on the map, and more relying on how 'difficult' you want the battlefield to feel.

Pixiedragon
2010-10-26, 04:58 AM
Sounds like a problem with port forwarding. You need to configure your router to forward port 51234 to your computer. This website should help guide you through how to do it. Only the host needs to do this, so don't worry about not everyone having enough technical expertise.
As I said, normal solutions didn't work. Seeing port forwarding is the first thing mentioned everywhere you can guess I tried that. Still didn't work. So unless my brother and I both failed several times to do port forwarding with very detailed descriptions, I doubt this is the case. :(


Alternatively you could try Hamachi that way the computers think they are on a LAN even if they are connected via the intarweb
I've used Hamachi before with something else, but the group voted against using programs like that because the techical side was getting way above their head.


When you're in combat, you should have a general idea of the lay of the land, and use descriptive/cinematic situations rather than "Knight takes Queen at E4" style tactics.
So you're saying that the combat should 'feel' more like a description of a battle? Like you can find in a book?

Eldan
2010-10-26, 05:38 AM
Simple example:

"The goblin is standing at the other side of the room, hiding behind a table"
"I run towards him, leaping over the table and behind him, then hack him with my axe"
"He tries to stab you with his spear as you jump over him (attack of opportunity)".

or

"They are all clustered together at the other end of the room."
"How many can I hit with a fireball?"
"All but two of them".

Basically, use movement distances loosely, use AoOs rarely. If you don't play combat-heavy games, it tends to work out well enough.

FelixG
2010-10-26, 08:54 AM
One idea as well, the GM can keep a map infront of him, based on the characters actions he can adjust the map.

Example:

Wizard: "I move five feet back and twenty five to the left
GM adjusts map
Wizard: "How far am I from the goblin with the spikey hair?"
GM counts the squares. "You are now forty feet away from him."

DonEsteban
2010-10-26, 10:01 AM
I support Eldan's suggestion! It is basically the AD&D (among others) way of doing combat and it is going to work for many D&D parties if you're not too much into tactical 3.5-type combat.

As an alternative: What if just the GM used Maptool and posted the map somewhere using the export feature (with grid and coordinates) and possibly Dropbox or something similar? That way everybody can precisely state their actions (just not move their tokens themselves).

kyoryu
2010-10-27, 02:12 PM
As I said, normal solutions didn't work. Seeing port forwarding is the first thing mentioned everywhere you can guess I tried that. Still didn't work. So unless my brother and I both failed several times to do port forwarding with very detailed descriptions, I doubt this is the case. :(

Try finding a Guru to help you out. Fortunately, the only person that should really have to deal with technical wizardry will be the one running the server, everyone else should be able to connect pretty seamlessly.

What you really need to do is enable port forwarding on your router. This usually isn't *too* hard, but you do need to know what you're doing, or get someone to help you (Remote Assistance ftw!)

Again - I want to reiterate that the only person that should have to do *anything* technical would be the one running the server. That's just how TCP works.

TheThan
2010-10-27, 05:00 PM
the problem i've had with play by post combat is not so much spacing and the actual battlefield, its having nearly everyone make a delayed action so they can wait for others to post. Its very frustrating because nothing happens and combat gets dragged out as everyone waits for everyone else to do something. i think next time I have a party that does this, I'm going to forfeit their turn and attack.
"while you stand around waiting for each other to act, the enemy takes advantage of your hesitation and attacks you".

ffone
2010-10-29, 02:41 AM
the problem i've had with play by post combat is not so much spacing and the actual battlefield, its having nearly everyone make a delayed action so they can wait for others to post. Its very frustrating because nothing happens and combat gets dragged out as everyone waits for everyone else to do something. i think next time I have a party that does this, I'm going to forfeit their turn and attack.
"while you stand around waiting for each other to act, the enemy takes advantage of your hesitation and attacks you".

Agreed. If you actually require people to post in their initiative order every round (at this very moment I'm debating this issue with someone in a PBP game at another site) the speed of the game is basically inverse with the square of the number of players (each time you check in to the site, there's a 1/N chance it's your turn, and then all N of you need to do that in sequence each round...)

For PBP DMing I virtually always use group initiative for the enemies. Then, the players can post their actions in any order, and they should use side notes to specify 'conditional' thing ('I charge mook A but iif my buddy went first and killed mook A, I charge mook B instead' or 'I cast Glitterdust if I can get 2+ enemies in the area on my turn, otherwise fire my crossbow') can work decently.

For high stakes situations you can, of course, require exact initiative order, either by requiring the posts be in that order, or resolving ambiguities by having the players act in that order.

I generally give players leeway to act in the most favorable order (for example, AoE attacks before charges in most cases), since once all the enemies have sequential initiatives, the players can arbitrarily order themselves each round by using delay actions. (At least, they can if you don't require they pick actual 'integer' numbers.) Of course, the enemies can do this too.

It helps to have a small party, and/or let people do multiple PCs (to have fewer humans per game).