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Master Thrower
2010-10-21, 04:52 PM
Well im going to be creating a 10ish level character soon. are dm is super harsh, and really stresses optimization. No party roles are decided yet. almost all books are legal. So please give me the most fun/strong thing about their. BUT please no CHEESE Like the initiate of the seven fold veil.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 04:54 PM
DMM persist cleric.

Totem Rager.

Druid.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-21, 05:01 PM
Cheese is subjective. You need to give us much more detail than that.

If you want just a strong character, you can't go wrong with Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 5. If there's another caster in the group, you can take Extend Spell and Persistent Spell to make their buffs last all day with Persistent Metamagic. Or with Chain Spell, to give an already good buff to the whole group; for example, Greater Resistance, which gives +4 to all saves and lasts 24 hours, and Superior Resistance (which you get access to next level) is the same but +6 to saves. You can also use Metamagic Effect for the same purpose.

And with metamagic reducers like Arcane Thesis, you can do silly amounts of damage as well.

But then, Incantatrix is one of the strongest Wizard PrCs. Probably stronger that Iot7V.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-21, 05:03 PM
Well im going to be creating a 10ish level character soon. are dm is super harsh, and really stresses optimization. No party roles are decided yet. almost all books are legal. So please give me the most fun/strong thing about their. BUT please no CHEESE Like the initiate of the seven fold veil.

Crusader: you just don't die. And really fun abilities I find.
You can replicate a holy warrior (paladin) type and no code of conduct forced upon you (you can roleplay one still of course).

You can go Ruby Knight Windicator (bold not optional).
Crusader/Turn undead class/Ruby Knight Vindicator

Master Thrower
2010-10-21, 05:46 PM
What book can i find Arcane thesis and Incantrix?

Optimator
2010-10-21, 06:33 PM
PHBII and PGtF

SurlySeraph
2010-10-21, 06:44 PM
There's also a version of Incantatrix online at WotC's site. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) It's weaker than the version in Player's Guide to Faerun, but still awesome.

Goudaa
2010-10-21, 06:46 PM
Please update the people here on how their class does in his game lol.

Master Thrower
2010-10-21, 07:12 PM
ok hmm. using both arcane thesis, and practical metamagic. I can make a single +3 metamagic bouns down to a +1 on a single spell. Any ideas on what spell this should be/ what +3 metamagic it should be? also this spell could always be silent+still at no bonus

Morph Bark
2010-10-21, 07:24 PM
Truenamer.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-21, 07:34 PM
There's a meta-magic feat for +4 level that removes the save from the spell. Get a Save or Suck, then let loose.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 07:44 PM
Truenamer.Ah, right, broken but not cheesy, just as OP wanted.

There's a meta-magic feat for +4 level that removes the save from the spell. Get a Save or Suck, then let loose.Isn't that 3rd party though?


Anyhow, in addition to full casters, Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is pretty nice.

Magikeeper
2010-10-21, 07:48 PM
There's a meta-magic feat for +4 level that removes the save from the spell. Get a Save or Suck, then let loose.

From a 3rd party book that should SO not be allowed. Is that the same group with the -4 LA template that actually helps caster PCs or am I thinking of something else?

On topic: Can you describe what "cheese" means to you?

Master Thrower
2010-10-21, 08:04 PM
umm cheesy is pretty vague. I just want something interesting. Not something like the IoSV which is pretty boring to play. its just a wizard that is that much better. Incantrix is fine as it abuses metamagic so finding ways to chain baleful polymore ect. Swiftblade? hmm how would you build a swift blade? wizard/sorcerer 6 swift blade x?

Psyren
2010-10-21, 08:07 PM
Truenamer.

Beat me to it!

SurlySeraph
2010-10-21, 08:11 PM
Swiftblade? hmm how would you build a swift blade? wizard/sorcerer 6 swift blade x?

Generally, yeah. There are early-entry methods, but they're a bit silly.

Zhalath
2010-10-21, 08:20 PM
Lightning Warrior? I'm thinking Lightning Warrior. My other thought was Samurai, but the two are basically the same class.

Morph Bark
2010-10-21, 08:27 PM
Lightning Warrior? I'm thinking Lightning Warrior. My other thought was Samurai, but the two are basically the same class.

Pffft, the Samurai gets even less familiars than the Lightning Warrior and it is still stronger!

Awnetu
2010-10-21, 09:11 PM
Well im going to be creating a 10ish level character soon. are dm is super harsh, and really stresses optimization. No party roles are decided yet. almost all books are legal. So please give me the most fun/strong thing about their. BUT please no CHEESE Like the initiate of the seven fold veil.

Soul Eater, Book of Vile Darkness. Page 66.

Punch enemies to make an army of the undead.

Zhalath
2010-10-21, 10:16 PM
Pffft, the Samurai gets even less familiars than the Lightning Warrior and it is still stronger!
Samurai is like Lightning Warrior, but with more crunch. I think all DMs quiver a bit upon hearing that a player is playing a Samurai.


Soul Eater, Book of Vile Darkness. Page 66.

Punch enemies to make an army of the undead.

If entered as a monk, does it compensate for being a monk?

SurlySeraph
2010-10-21, 10:19 PM
You need to be non-humanoid and have a natural attack to enter, so there are better ways to enter than as a monk. Also, BAB requirement, so not great for monks. It'll certainly help a monk, though.

Awnetu
2010-10-21, 10:37 PM
Half Minotaur would cover it, though hurts you a little bit.

Ofc you need to use a more reasonable LA, maybe +2/+3?

Da Beast
2010-10-21, 10:40 PM
What's lightning warrior? I've seen it thrown around a few times as a joke but I don't know what it is.

Awnetu
2010-10-21, 10:40 PM
What's lightning warrior? I've seen it thrown around a few times as a joke but I don't know what it is.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126747

Skip to Keld Denars post.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 10:46 PM
You need to be non-humanoid and have a natural attack to enter, so there are better ways to enter than as a monk. Also, BAB requirement, so not great for monks. It'll certainly help a monk, though.Warforged. They make pretty good monks, too.

Half Minotaur would cover it, though hurts you a little bit.

Ofc you need to use a more reasonable LA, maybe +2/+3?+2 and no stat increases from size.

Psyren
2010-10-21, 10:48 PM
Warforged. They make pretty good monks, too.


They do? I would think the Wis penalty and the armor plating would make them pretty bad at it, slam or no slam...

Greenish
2010-10-21, 10:52 PM
They do? I would think the Wis penalty and the armor plating would make them pretty bad at it, slam or no slam...Wis penalty is rather minor. The armour doesn't count as such for monk class features, and Battlefist increases your unarmed damage to one size category larger, as well as allowing you to enchant and use special materials on your unarmed strikes, I seem to recall.

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 12:34 AM
Either that or you go with an armorless Warforged.

gorfnab
2010-10-22, 12:58 AM
Druid 5/ Planar Shepherd 5 chosen plane Dal Quor.

Kylarra
2010-10-22, 12:59 AM
If IoSV is considered cheesy, somehow I doubt being a planar shepherd is okay.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-22, 04:58 AM
DMM persist cleric.

He asked for NOT cheese. DMM Persist clerics are cheesier than the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

As an alternative powerful option, try a Cleric with... no DMM Persist.


If IoSV is considered cheesy, somehow I doubt being a planar shepherd is okay.

This...


Well im going to be creating a 10ish level character soon. are dm is super harsh, and really stresses optimization. No party roles are decided yet. almost all books are legal. So please give me the most fun/strong thing about their. BUT please no CHEESE Like the initiate of the seven fold veil.

Really, I would help you more and give you a build or something, but your request is just far too vague. I can give you any number of optimized builds that are just below the level of the IotSV for any number of character concepts, roles, or whatever... but I'm not going to list all of them. You have to at least give people a direction.

Myth
2010-10-22, 05:20 AM
So how do you know that the DM stresses on optimization if you are not playing yet? Has he stated it/asked that you optimize? If so, what do you want to play?

Aharon
2010-10-22, 06:54 AM
I third Truenamer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8489.0) :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 07:00 AM
Yeah, some idea of what sort of role you prefer would aid us greatly in aiding you.

Morph Bark
2010-10-22, 07:04 AM
Incidentally, my Truenamer suggestion is viable enough if you go with a homebrew fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488). I fully support Kyeudo's work on this and it is easy, balanced and the mechanics work well.

Master Thrower
2010-10-22, 07:07 AM
ok well i just found out the spellcasting role is taken. So im going to be the one of the 2 frontline fighters. Ideas? I always have wanted to make a type of barbarian or ranger.

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 07:15 AM
Well, Barbarian 10 alone is a decent chassis for whacking people in the face, especially with the Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm)variant Rage and Pounce (Spirit Lion) from Complete Champion. You can even add Tripping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm)to the repertoire by taking the second level (Wolf Totem).

I'm going to guess your DM doesn't muck with Multiclass XP penalties, so a dip of barbarian 1 or 2 with the Extra Rage feat seems like it'd be good.

The Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) combines Ranger and Barbarian with the Horizon Walker in an attempt to form the most versatile core melee combatant. Though even a single level in Horizon Walker can be useful as it prevents you from being fatigued by your use of your rage.

Straight Cleric 10 or Druid 10(counts as 2, even) are also good frontliners, of course, as are Tome of Battle classes. Heck, if you're not the primary divine caster, your Druid can multiclass into Master of Many Forms and become more than just a party animal.

Greenish
2010-10-22, 10:46 AM
He asked for NOT cheese. DMM Persist clerics are cheesier than the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.Depends on what you persist. :smallcool:

Wings of Peace
2010-10-22, 11:20 AM
I'm very curious about what the actual benchmark for a viable strong class/prestige class is here. You titled the thread "Broken Class" but named the Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil (IotSFV) as cheesy when it's one of the least broken yet still "Strong" casting prestige classes out there. And how does that translate to melee? Is a Frenzied Berserker considered on the same level as an IotSFV for example?

Vulaas
2010-10-22, 02:32 PM
If you like the Soul Eater idea, Dragonwrought Kobold works perfectly as a race for it, otherwise for a front line guy I'd recommend a Warblade. Templates work very well in the favor of a melee guy if you pick the right ones (for example using Lolth-touched Half-minotaur), however they can be absurdly powerful and not quite to your taste.

The Shadowmind
2010-10-22, 02:49 PM
I going to out in left field and suggest a Binder 6/KotSS 4(Improved Binding required). Find a vestige you like as your patron, and Bind Zceryll when feel like you need support for the day, Summon Pseudo-natural templated creatures from Summon monster V at this level.

WinWin
2010-10-22, 03:05 PM
Melee?

Supermounted Supercharger. Cavalier from Complete Warrior will help you out with this considerably.

If mounts are a problem, go with some of the pounce builds mentioned.

A sneak attacking multi attacker/two weapon fighter can be good...Requires a few DM care packages to function optimally against everything. The Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape can help alleviate this.

A Gish build can be front line, can also act as a secondary caster. I'm not too experienced with Mario builds though.

Psyren
2010-10-22, 03:08 PM
I'm very curious about what the actual benchmark for a viable strong class/prestige class is here. You titled the thread "Broken Class" but named the Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil (IotSFV) as cheesy when it's one of the least broken yet still "Strong" casting prestige classes out there. And how does that translate to melee? Is a Frenzied Berserker considered on the same level as an IotSFV for example?

The primary metric, I think, is "are the benefits good enough that if this class lost a caster level people would still want to take it?" For Incantatrix, Iot7FV, MotAO and a few others, the answer is probably yes; this means that they are perhaps more powerful than they should be as-written.