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Cerlis
2010-10-21, 09:02 PM
So a while back i got inspired by Assassin's Creed at about the same time as learning about the soulbow (who's pic does not do justice to the coolosity of the PrC) However, I got the character concept down but dont know if its possible to get his entire stich down before like...lvl 10 (and I dont DnD like...at all...i just love the character idea and want to flesh it out in case i ever use it)

I basically want him to be a moderate threat (for from OP but you know..better than a bard is at combat) with a normal bow and if possible short swords, but naturally or strongly powered with his soulblade/bow. I'd want him to be able to contribute to combat well enough for most of the time and have his trump cards saved for special situations (For isntance if he manages to be a decent archer/ranger, and gets captured he wont have revealed that he is a better combatant with the weapon he can generate from thin air).

I know there are a few choices out there. Soul blade and Soulbow progression is great to increase the ehancement bonus of the blade, abilities and damage of it (as well as eventually being able to fire at point blank range without AoO)

Fighter levels could give me more ranged feats such as many shot, rapid shot, Ranged Sunder(optional, but since his weapon is his mind i liked this whole...him sunder the weapon of every enemy he comes across in a "I have the most powerful weapon" motto thing), better Attack bonus

Order of the bow initiate. Seems like a good ranged specialization progression, and that Guarenteed Full round action Aimed shot thing is cool....but then again i could just go for more soulblade/bow levels for a higher charged blade bonus?

I'm also highly interested in feats and such that can aid me in both melee and range, so if need be i can go Shortsword (I imagined Dual wielding short sword mindlbades but thats another feat i'd have to take). So like...weapon focus would be decent for my bow, but like a feat that allows me a bonus for doing some manuver but for any weapon or attack would be better because i could do that with bow or blade.


I realize im being very general which isnt helping but just thought i'd get a few ideas and maybe someone has made a soulbow and can tell me straight off "Dont multiclass to much" or "Multiclass the hell outta your character" or some obvious tip.

Edit*: since i care more about the character concept, i've also juggled the idea of making him a antagonist gestalt character, which i think would solve all the problems of the build, and would be decent and fun as long as i dont mary sue him. I like the idea of him getting away in the first encounter by sundering the parties mundane weapons in their first encounter, then next time they meet him with magic weapons a few levels later and they break his bow all cocky "who's disarmed now" the villian replying "Hmm, impressive, but not quite good enough" and then thats when they find out he has "finger lasers". eh anways.

Psyren
2010-10-21, 09:34 PM
What sources do you have?

Keep in mind that anything you put on this guy, your players will expect to be fair game for them. That includes feats, items etc.

When you said you were thinking of making him gestalt; is this a gestalt game? If not, you can make strong soulbow without going that far to power him up.

Godskook
2010-10-21, 11:06 PM
I basically want him to be a moderate threat (for from OP but you know..better than a bard is at combat)

:smallconfused:

Pretty sure an optimized bard beats a soulbow.

jindra34
2010-10-22, 09:17 AM
:smallconfused:

Pretty sure an optimized bard beats a soulbow.

Soulknife yes. Soulbow takes everything that should be good about the knife and makes it work and then gives more tricks that work, so not really.

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 09:27 AM
Soulknife yes. Soulbow takes everything that should be good about the knife and makes it work and then gives more tricks that work, so not really.

You know, I'm pretty sure Bard still wins. Optimized Bard may not be tier 1 but even without SC, they are pretty damn strong.

Mongoose87
2010-10-22, 09:32 AM
You know, I'm pretty sure Bard still wins. Optimized Bard may not be tier 1 but even without SC, they are pretty damn strong.

A little bit of Dragonfire Optimization going, and you're doing some significant damage.

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 09:38 AM
A little bit of Dragonfire Optimization going, and you're doing some significant damage.

You don't even need Dragonfire; TWFing with +12 to hit and damage is quite strong already as far as combat goes. Though of course, adding +12d6 on top of that is just groovy. And that's without dips (e.g. one level of SE > Divine Might > +Cha to damage rolls).

Khatoblepas
2010-10-22, 12:41 PM
Edit*: since i care more about the character concept, i've also juggled the idea of making him a antagonist gestalt character, which i think would solve all the problems of the build, and would be decent and fun as long as i dont mary sue him. I like the idea of him getting away in the first encounter by sundering the parties mundane weapons in their first encounter, then next time they meet him with magic weapons a few levels later and they break his bow all cocky "who's disarmed now" the villian replying "Hmm, impressive, but not quite good enough" and then thats when they find out he has "finger lasers". eh anways.

Gestalt, eh? Makes a soulbow build much more viable.

Human Archivist 10//Cloistered Cleric 1 (Elf/Travel Devotion/Knowledge Devotion)/Scout 6/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1

Feats:
Zen Archery
Persistent Spell
Extend Spell
Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
Improved Skirmish

Equipment:
Normal archer equipment (sans bow)
Nightsticks

Stats:
Wis->Int->Con->Cha->Dex->Str

Tactics:
Find all the Ranger-Only bow buff spells you can find for the archivist side, and persist them. Persist Owl's Insight for +5 Wis, Persist lots of regular buff spells like Divine Power and Divine Favor to make up for lack of BAB.

Taunt the party, and use travel devotion to move 10ft, allowing you to skirmish with your mind arrows. Whenever dispelled or put into a position where you cannot skirmish, run away.

Use Arrow Storm to pepper the enemy with arrows all at once to put them on edge. If you can pump up Tumble so you can hit DC40, take a 10ft step as a free action for delicious skirmish damage. Until then, Travel Devotion eats your swift action needed for Arrow Storm.

For the rest of the 10 levels, the Archivist side doesn't really need prestige classing, but any full casting PrC is good. On the Soulbow/Scout side, go Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order for some arcane buffs. Take Swift Hunter to continue your skirmish. At 20th level, you'll have 9th level divine spells, 5th level arcane spells, and +5d6/7d6 skirmish on each attack. +Wis to attack and damage, with lots of Wisdom to go around. Since you're using your Archivist spells for buffs only, you could simply just get 19 Int by 17th level and pump up your Wisdom as far as possible.

I don't suggest getting into melee range, though. Archers are incredibly squishy. But if he needs to, he can still skirmish at melee range - just don't stay there.

Using this method means he can also have a backup bow the party can break... and he just becomes MORE effective without it. (thanks to Soulbow)

Hmm, I wonder if he can get a Fiend of Possession to inhabit his soulknife. It IS a physical item you can sunder, so...

BenInHB
2010-10-22, 01:15 PM
Hmm, I wonder if he can get a Fiend of Possession to inhabit his soulknife. It IS a physical item you can sunder, so...

This would have some great roll play potential. I can see the fiend trapped inside the player and he can push it out to form the soul blade but whenever the blade is dismissed the Demon is right back inside him. Maybe that motivates him to become a Soulbow, to forcefully expel shards the Fiend from his body. Too bad as soon as the arrow dissipates that part of the Demons essence absorbs back into him.

Cerlis
2010-10-22, 05:30 PM
I've got most main sources, Complete books (second and first series <warrior adventure, then mage scoundrel ect) arms and equipment 2 or three monster manuals Psionics, Races, incarnum tome of battle and tome of magic of course; but nothing to out there. But thats just immediate reference, only thing i'd be averse to is something 100% homebrewn that cant be shown how its balanced (i've seen some feats and stuff out there that definately dont seem so)

and that idea sounds great, kato, for a good villian. I'm reminded of how in 4.0 and Video games boss monsters have naturally higher stats, crit ability ect. So was thinking in a campaign it would be interesting (-if i did it right and only if i did it right- since normal balanced stuff can still TPK) if boss monsters where gestalt because they where suppose to be super.

from the options you highlighted and the trickster,master of arms attitude i imagine for this character I can imagine basically HIM being the "dungeon". Essentially instead of crawlin through a dungeon and dealing with or not dealing with traps or monsters cleverly or brutally you got a semi-chase scene where the players track down the bad guy, chase him, maybe he escapes or finds a way to temporary escape, buildings and civilians getting in the way, changing the scenery and helping or hindering the players.

The idea be to challenge the players and get them to think of ways to outwit and outmanuver him since he only has eyes on escaping.

------------------
Anyways I am interested in the options of a normal powered PC character too. It just seemed like the way the soulbow progressed that ...well its very specialized so if i ever held back for sake of drama or trump card effect i'd pretty much contribute nill.

My bard comment was rather to the effect that a bard (from what i saw) has 3 options in combat. Deal about a d6's worth of dmg through ranged or melee weapon with a 3/4 BA bonus, Bardic music, or cast a Buff, enchantment, or illusion (basically).
So i'm skeptical, i'd theorize any powerful bard out there would just be "these feats are powerful all together and slap them on the bard and the bard is powerful" or because a certian PrC only a bard can qualify for is overpowered. But yall know what your talking about, but i'd be interested if there is a link on how to make bards awesome.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-22, 07:11 PM
Straight SK/SB isn't bad, but it doesn't fill any of the needed party roles, so only take it if skillmonkey, arcanist, healbuffbot, and tank are already filled (and tank consists of a barbarian with the track feat, or skillmonkey is a scout with track, or tracking doesn't seem like it'll be an important skill in this campaign.)
So, you've chosen SK as your base class... the question is how to optimize it.
If you start at level 4 or higher, ask if you can get that neat little phrenic template, otherwise skip it. For stats, wisdom and con should be your key stats, with a high enough STR to carry armor (preferably heavy,) and 12-13 dex is good too, though even higher is good for certain feats, such as ranged disarm requiring 15 and improved precise shot requiring 19. Dexterity is also a good skill to have for having medium armor, but due to zen archery, you'll only need/want to increase your wis (especially when a monks belt when it ends up giving you more AC than your armor.)
The best skills to take are listen/spot, concentration, and autohypnosis (up to a certain point.)
The base feats that you'll need, in order of when to get them are as follows:
Point blank shot
Precise shot
Zen Archery (With a high dexterity early on, you can put this feat off till later)
Psionic Shot
Great Psionic shot
Mind Cleave
The rest of the 7 (8 for humans) feats you take are up to you, but I'll leave that up to someone else's "perfecto-optimizo-magico."

Dipping: Fighter isn't too great of a bonus, aside from the extra fort save bonus, as to get an increase in your BAB in the build, you need to take 3 levels of fighter, and to increase your bab to 16 for the magic 4i you need to take 6 or 7 levels of fighter (depending on what you don't take,) and by either of those times, the +x's and mind blade/arrow enhancement are going to be worthless.
Rogue is going to make your character either MAD or MSD, dipping a few levels of Soulknife for some extra rogue abilities isn't a bad idea, but then it's more of a rogue with SK than an SK with rogue
Illumine Soul: lose one more BaB (from 14 down to 13) on the level 20 build [SK5/SB10/IS5], this is arguably the only "worth it" for not doing [SK10/SB10], as your BaB and skills are the only thing to suffer in exchange for some anti-undead abilities. Keeping that in mind, ask yourself (and the DM) how much you'll be fighting undead before taking the skills required to take the class.