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View Full Version : [3.5] Mystic SotAO Ranger -> Swiftblade?



Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-22, 08:24 AM
Assuming the Sorc/Wiz spells you gain through the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, count as Arcane spells, would using an Arcane advancing prg class such as swiftblade,advance the spellcasting?

I wanted to make a more...balanced gish, in the sense that instead of being a spellcaster that hits baddies with a piece of metal, a much more martial spellcaster.

So I came up with the idea of trying to combine it with one of my favorite prg classes the Swiftblade, as the lost CL are not a big issue in such a build, besides it also opens some really nice options, the only thing I micht be missing is the capstone, as I won't have 6th level spells.

So what do you think? Should it be allowed? Yes, no, why?

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 09:18 AM
Sure. It's much like base Duskblade or Suel Arcanamach Swiftblade; works fine and gets all the spell casting of the base class in spite of having 4 dead levels, but misses out on Innervated Speed. It's fair, it's solid, it's not broken.

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 09:27 AM
I love the idea. Probably my favorite gish build ever.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-22, 09:43 AM
The only problem is that I miis the martial melee weapons...well spears are perfectly sevciable weapons.

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 09:55 AM
The only problem is that I miis the martial melee weapons...well spears are perfectly sevciable weapons.

If you really miss them swords, you could be an elf.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-22, 09:58 AM
If you really miss them swords, you could be an elf.

I don't particularly like Elfs, and recently I am leaning towards polearms (probably influenced by the Hood's builds)

And now that I think so, maybe I can combine my staff fighter idea with this... Quarterstaffs are simple weapons right?

Greenish
2010-10-22, 09:58 AM
If you really miss them swords, you could be an elf.Eww, elves. Rather become a Neraphin. All martial weapon proficiencies, some nat armour, oh, and outsider type at +0 LA.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-22, 09:59 AM
Eww, elves. Rather become a Neraphin. All martial weapon proficiencies, some nat armour, oh, and outsider type at +0 LA.

Being a giant frog is not my personal cup of tea either....

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 10:03 AM
Being a giant frog is not my personal cup of tea either....

Also, it's obviously not intended for outsider PCs to get all martial weapon proficiencies.




And now that I think so, maybe I can combine my staff fighter idea with this... Quarterstaffs are simple weapons right?
Exactly. Sounds like a perfect fit.

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 10:05 AM
Eww, elves. Rather become a Neraphin. All martial weapon proficiencies, some nat armour, oh, and outsider type at +0 LA.

Meh; something like Snow Elf would work out just fine. Hell, Fire Elf isn't terrible though Con penalty is always a downer. At least you're talking about a character who gains more HP through HD than your average Gish. There's always EWP feat too; doesn't require MWP.

Mongoose87
2010-10-22, 10:08 AM
Don't you need MWP to get into Swiftblade?

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 10:10 AM
Don't you need MWP to get into Swiftblade?

He has ranged weapons from Mystic Ranger making it a non-issue.

Greenish
2010-10-22, 10:40 AM
Being a giant frog is not my personal cup of tea either....Better than being an elf. :smallcool:

Also, it's obviously not intended for outsider PCs to get all martial weapon proficiencies.I don't see the "obvious" part.

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 10:47 AM
I don't see the "obvious" part.
It's not listed in any racial statblock. Magic of Incarnum's Aasimar Incarnate gains Martial Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat. Planar Handbook's neraph 'treat the annulat as a martial weapon', but are not mentioned as innately proficient with them.
That's plenty of evidence of the RAI here. RAW is pretty obvious that they do get it, but complaining if any DM shoots it down is silly, because RAI is also very clear.

Thiyr
2010-10-22, 10:55 AM
It's not listed in any racial statblock. Magic of Incarnum's Aasimar Incarnate gains Martial Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat. Planar Handbook's neraph 'treat the annulat as a martial weapon', but are not mentioned as innately proficient with them.
That's plenty of evidence of the RAI here. RAW is pretty obvious that they do get it, but complaining if any DM shoots it down is silly, because RAI is also very clear.

"An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)."...Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) That kinda throws the RAI argument for a loop IMO, as all outsiders have that by default. If they had proficiency with a specific martial weapon, I'd agree. The aasimar incarnate seems, honestly, to be the more likely oversight, considering that there would be no other evidence to support that players lose a racial trait because they're a player.

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 10:58 AM
That kinda throws the RAI argument for a loop IMO, as all outsiders have that by default.
That's not from a racial statblock. Doesn't it seem weird that all other traits are accounted and listed in the racial statblocks but this one?

Tvtyrant
2010-10-22, 11:19 AM
Being a giant frog is not my personal cup of tea either....

Not even the TitaniToad???! (Ad&D fans should know what I am talking about!)

Greenish
2010-10-22, 11:27 AM
RAW is pretty obvious that they do get it, but complaining if any DM shoots it down is silly, because RAI is also very clear.You're entitled to your own opinion, but trying to shove it down other people's throat is bad form. The very fact that there's an argument about it should adequately demonstrate that the designer's intentions aren't quite as clear as you maintain them to be.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-22, 11:28 AM
Not even the TitaniToad???! (Ad&D fans should know what I am talking about!)


Started playing LATE in 3.5 run ( ~2006-2007), so I don't know about previous editions.

From the top of my head without checking my books.

Dark (ToM) Human Mystic Ranger 5/Abjurant Champion 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion +4

1 Expeditous Dodge (RoTW)
H Mobility
3 Combat Casting
6 SotAO (CoV)
9 Minor Shapeshift (CMag)
12 Dimensional Jaunt (CMag)
15 Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz
18 Rapid Bitz (Don't remember which one is the pre-req for the other one)

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 11:55 AM
Better than being an elf. :smallcool:

Come now, being an elf > being a human any day of the week :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-10-22, 12:33 PM
Come now, being an elf > being a human any day of the week :smalltongue:Except on monday. And sunday. And the days between them.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-22, 12:35 PM
Fluffwise, yeah Elves better than humans (specially if you are a Valenar elf/xendirc drow :smallamused:)

Mechanic-wise: give me human every time of the week.

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 02:45 PM
1 Expeditous Dodge (RoTW)
H Mobility
3 Combat Casting
6 SotAO (CoV)
9 Minor Shapeshift (CMag)
12 Dimensional Jaunt (CMag)
15 Bounding Assault
18 Rapid Bitz
Bounding Assault is the prerequisite for Rapid Blitz.

Thiyr
2010-10-22, 02:58 PM
That's not from a racial statblock. Doesn't it seem weird that all other traits are accounted and listed in the racial statblocks but this one?

You're correct, it's not in the racial statblock. Because it's part of their type, like how undead are immune to critical hits. In fact, in exactly the same way skeletons are immune to critical hits (even though they're not explicitly stated to in their statblock).

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 03:28 PM
Anyway, even with Mystic Ranger as the base, I'd still say don't take Swiftblade 10.

Eldritch Knight 1 would give a bonus feat and bump up the fortitude save.

Mongoose87
2010-10-22, 03:36 PM
Anyway, even with Mystic Ranger as the base, I'd still say don't take Swiftblade 10.

Eldritch Knight 1 would give a bonus feat and bump up the fortitude save.

For a second, I thought you were recommending Eldritch Knight over Swiftblade.

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 03:43 PM
For a second, I thought you were recommending Eldritch Knight over Swiftblade.

Over the tenth level of swiftblade, yes. All it gives is +10 movement speed while hasted and +1 to Reflex and Will saves

Of course, I just realized to a human something would need to be done to qualify for Eldritch Knight. Hmm. What else other than Swiftblade 10...

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 05:08 PM
You're correct, it's not in the racial statblock. Because it's part of their type, like how undead are immune to critical hits. In fact, in exactly the same way skeletons are immune to critical hits (even though they're not explicitly stated to in their statblock).

But skeletons are not a playable race. Though I just checked the 'playing as a rakshasa' statblock and it does not mention weapon proficiencies so all, so maybe it's not that clear. The evidence from Aasimar Incarnate still stands, though.


Over the tenth level of swiftblade, yes. All it gives is +10 movement speed while hasted and +1 to Reflex and Will saves

Of course, I just realized to a human something would need to be done to qualify for Eldritch Knight. Hmm. What else other than Swiftblade 10...
Well, Swiftblade 10 also gives you time stop, ya know. Just saying.

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 05:54 PM
Well, Swiftblade 10 also gives you time stop, ya know. Just saying.

But base non-6th level caster can't use it :smallfrown:

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 06:37 PM
But base non-6th level caster can't use it :smallfrown:

Hm, true. The Versatile Spellcaster trick doesn't even work with Mystic Ranger.

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 11:05 PM
Yup. A level of fighter, the weakest of PC classes, provides more value.

Ooo, or maybe feat rogue if you want some trapfinding and a bit of extra skills tacked on. Could add darkstalker or wild cohort to the line up that way. Trying to think of what else you could add featwise at low levels to synergize with this though...

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-22, 11:35 PM
What about a level of Crusader in there for Thicket of Blades?

Greenish
2010-10-23, 02:15 PM
The evidence from Aasimar Incarnate still stands, though.Right after Aasimar incarnate substitution levels we have azurin cleric substitution levels. Azurin cleric's class skills are "same as the standard cleric class, plus Knowledge (the Planes)".

Is this evidence that Knowledge (the Planes) isn't a class skill for standard clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)? :smallamused:

true_shinken
2010-10-23, 07:36 PM
Right after Aasimar incarnate substitution levels we have azurin cleric substitution levels. Azurin cleric's class skills are "same as the standard cleric class, plus Knowledge (the Planes)".

Is this evidence that Knowledge (the Planes) isn't a class skill for standard clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)? :smallamused:

Well, what can I say? Looks like someone messed up pretty bad in Magic of Incarnum, then.

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 08:09 PM
Plus the whole bit where it's a secondary source as opposed to the primary one that details outsider traits.