Arena Tournament, Round 95: Dare vs. Wendy

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 95: Dare vs. Wendy

Map:http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab330/ArenaManager/Arenas/07-candles.png
The outer Arena walls for this map are 30 ft high, with a Climb DC of 30.

XP Award: 300 XP
GP Award: 300 GP

Dare (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=9139) - Psionic Dog
Wendy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=214892) - candycorn

All Combatants, please roll initiative and declare final purchases, if any

[candycorn]

Init: [roll0]

Debating Purchases.

[Psionic Dog]

Updated Character sheet to reflect past match.

[roll0]

I suppose I better get a 50gp potion of Resist Energy(Acid).

Still thinking on other purchases.

[candycorn]

Nothing worrisome yet... But I'll get another tattoo of chameleon.

[Psionic Dog]

Also purchasing a light wooden shield and a scroll of 2x Cure Light Wounds.

Total spent: 103 gp.

Reserve right to make reactionary purchases.

[candycorn]

Further Purchases:
Sell - Studded Leather, Light Wooden Shield. (+14gp)
Purchase - MW Studded Leather, MW Heavy Wooden Shield (-332gp)
Purchase - 9 slings (no cost)
Purchase - Potion of Resist Energy:Fire (-50gp)
Total Cost to this point: -468gp

[Psionic Dog]

Purchasing a Scroll of 2x Sleep and a longspear for an additional 55 gp as reaction.

If you don't have any further reactions you can start us off.

Dare will not be starting with a lit light source.

[candycorn]

Match Particulars:Starting location: Y10
In hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling
Melds Shaped: Wormtail (1)
Dissolving Spittle (Expanded)
Blink Shirt (1)

Before I start, please announce your starting location, and items/etc in hand, for the refs.

[Psionic Dog]

@Refs (Starting Preparations)
Start mounted filling start location.
Wearing armor with light shield equipped.
Heavy shield, launtern, and 6 torches left at home to keep weight down.

Why did I downgrade to the light shield? Because you can't use a hand holding a heavy shield for anything else and Dare will need both hands for this match.

Holding (unlit) sunrod, both scrolls, a javlin and club in shield hand with other hand free.

[candycorn]

Wendy, Round 1, First to act

Refs/LOS:Move from Y10 to T8.
Hide: [roll0]
MS: [roll1]

Blink: from T8 to S7 (+15)

Done.

Stats:Location: S7 (+15) - On Ice wall, Hiding
HP: 12/12
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling
Effects active: None
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

[candycorn]

Bump for the overworked.

[Psionic Dog]

Dare - Round 1

LoS
Autosucced on all Guide with Knees checks.
[roll0] DC 15

Standard: Activate SunRod
Ride to V10/W11, revising if the horse established Scent.

Done,
LoS probably helpful.

Stats
HP: 9/9
AC: 15(19?) [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield] (+4 cover?)

[Sallera]

Refs:Spot for Dare: [roll0]

Dare:Your horse smells something at N10/O11. You may revise your turn from this point.

Wendy:Dare lights a sunrod and rides to N10/O11. He is armoured, wielding a light shield, and holding a sunrod, two scrolls, a javelin, and a club in his shield hand.

Still Dare's turn.

[Psionic Dog]

Revision

LoS
Revise to end Ride at S10/T11.

Move: [roll0]

Done

Stats
HP: 9/9
AC: 15 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield]

[Sallera]

Refs:Nyar.

Dare:Your horse smells something.

Wendy:Dare moves to S10/T11 (mounted).

[candycorn]

Wendy, Round 2, First to Act

Refs/LOS:Wow, he bolted straight out. Looks like he doesn't see me yet, though... And if he lit a sunrod... He didn't drink an acid resist potion.

Swift: Allocate Essentia. Dissolving Spittle (2).

Attack Dare with dissolving spittle (hopefully vs FF touch AC)

Touch Attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

Not done, waiting for results.

[candycorn]

Refs/LOS:Critical Threat: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

[candycorn]

@Refs:Well, at the very least, he's disabled. I think he has cover vs range attacks, so the threat didn't confirm (sadly)... But that puts me in a good way here.

[Sallera]

I'm not sure why all that was posted in spoilers, but anyway, Wendy spits acid at Dare for 9 damage, and afterward appears in S7, holding shield and sling.

[candycorn]

Sorry about that. Yes, and shield is readied, and sling is loaded. S7 is not a typo, I am indeed atop the ice wall.

EDIT: Done.

Stats:Location: S7 (+15) - On Ice wall
HP: 12/12
AC: 23 (Touch 16, FF 18)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling
Effects active: None
Melds Active: Wormtail (0), Dissolving Spittle (2, Expanded), Blink Shirt (0)

[Psionic Dog]

Wow, I wasn't expecting you to have essence on Acid.
Oh wait, swift action reassignment.

Dare - Round 2

Swift: Activate LawDevotion -> AC.

Standard: Cast Spell from Scroll.
DC 16 Spellcraft
[roll0]

Ride to V-14/W16,
[roll1] DC 15

Done

Stats
HP: [Cure -1]/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 10/10

[candycorn]

You have a lot of items in your hands, Psionic. Now, you only get a standard action, which means that either that was a Cure Light Wounds, or I just won as you went to -1 from the damage after the action (as opposed to the cure spell healing you first).

Question. Scrolls require unrolling to read, and still require somatic components.


Spell Completion

This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

My question is... How are you unrolling and reading the scroll aloud, while performing the final somatic components of the spell...while holding a Sunrod, 2 scrolls, a javelin, and a club?

In addition, unless your horse is 15 feet long, V14/W16 is a bit bigger than it is... In addition, V14 and W14 are Ice walls.

[Psionic Dog]

Sorry, should have been "V15/W16"

Now, what is this "unrolling" you're describing? There are no action rules anywhere for unrolling a scroll, and the text you quoted doesn't say a single word about unrolling either.

As for somatic components Dare has his light shield equipped, not the heavy.

Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel

You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Maybe the ref didn't make it clear, but Dare's holding everything in his shield hand, leaving the mouth free for vocal components and his other hand free for somatic components.

So maybe I skipped the step:
"Free: transfer scroll to top of stack, face up."
but I'm pretty sure precedent allows casting from a scroll held in a hand also holding other stuff.


And lastly yes, Dare took 1 point of damage from the casting but is still moving. I guess that narrows down what he could have cast. :smallwink:

[candycorn]

To protect it from wrinkling or tearing, a scroll is rolled up from both ends to form a double cylinder. (This also helps the user unroll the scroll quickly.) The scroll is placed in a tube of ivory, jade, leather, metal, or wood. Most scroll cases are inscribed with magic symbols which often identify the owner or the spells stored on the scrolls inside. The symbols often hide magic traps.
There's the text showing that a scroll's default position is rolled up from both ends. I would take that to mean that the scroll must be manipulated to open it. That action is normally inconsequential, but I would take it to mean that you would need your hands free to do it.

I was under the impression that precedent was that multiple items could be carried in one hand, but not effectively used (i.e. you can carry multiple items, but to properly use them, they must be the only item in that hand). After all, I cannot employ a longsword in a hand also holding a club, a shortbow, 6 potions, 2 rings, and a scroll.

If you could cite precedent to the contrary, I would appreciate it. Otherwise, I'd like to kick this to a ref for a ruling... If for no other reason than it would possibly require the dropping/stowing of other items prior to using a scroll.

[Chess435]

I don't have the authority to issue an official ruling, but provided there isn't precedent to the contrary, I would rule that scrolls do have to be manipulated to be used, requiring the use of at least one hand.

[RandomAction]

I don't have the authority to issue an official ruling, but provided there isn't precedent to the contrary, I would rule that scrolls do have to be manipulated to be used, requiring the use of at least one hand.

I disagree. Holding an unrolled scroll is considered a mundaine preperation that can be done at the start of the match.

[candycorn]

I disagree. Holding an unrolled scroll is considered a mundaine preperation that can be done at the start of the match.

However, a scroll is rolled by default. Mundane preparations can be done at a match's start, but they must be done. If I say I'm holding a shield, and don't say it's readied, then it's not readied. If I'm holding a lantern, and I do not say it's lit, then it's not lit. If I'm holding a scroll, and do not state that it's open, then it's not.

I won't dispute that that's a mundane preparation that can be done.

Were those scrolls announced as being in anything other than the condition scrolls are listed as in the SRD?


To protect it from wrinkling or tearing, a scroll is rolled up from both ends to form a double cylinder.
If not, then it should be a mundane preparation that was not done... And the scroll should be as listed above. Rolled up from both ends. Negligible to open (done as part of the scroll's activation), but requiring the use of both hands.

[Psionic Dog]

There is precedent, but it may be a couple days before I have time to search the archive for relevant links. (Advanced time extension requested)

I suspect the official rule is close to what RandomAction stated: scrolls start ready for use and require no complex manipulation for casting. I know I've seen people cast off scrolls dropped face up at their feet or even held up by an adjacent allied creature.

@V: Yah, the powerstone argument is much easier. I do seem to recall some restriction on scroll usage, but someone would have to do some digging to figure out what exactly was decided and if Dare stepped outside the limits.

[TheFallenOne]

there is precedent of scrolls(or maybe just powerstones?) being used while other things were held in the same hand. However, I personally always disagreed with that precedent, as well as the "unlimited number of items in one hand" thing, so it's not my call to make since it seems my opinion and the official Arena stance differ. Ultimately, it's for Sallera or Kyeudo to call, I can just say I'm not fan of the item-stacking and then even using the top one

While RAW does say that scrolls are rolled up per default as per your quote, the assumption that it must the rolled out to be used is pure conjecture. You want a strict RAW reading, then the scroll is rolled up, but can be used just fine(not considering the issue of other held items, on which as I said I won't make a call)

[candycorn]

there is precedent of scrolls(or maybe just powerstones?) being used while other things were held in the same hand. However, I personally always disagreed with that precedent, as well as the "unlimited number of items in one hand" thing, so it's not my call to make since it seems my opinion and the official Arena stance differ. Ultimately, it's for Sallera or Kyeudo to call, I can just say I'm not fan of the item-stacking and then even using the top one

While RAW does say that scrolls are rolled up per default as per your quote, the assumption that it must the rolled out to be used is pure conjecture. You want a strict RAW reading, then the scroll is rolled up, but can be used just fine(not considering the issue of other held items, on which as I said I won't make a call)
Well, then there's the issue of:
Activation

To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it.
I can't read what's on the other side of a sheet of paper any more than I can read what's on the other side of a wall. Precedent has been established that you must see the writing on the scroll to activate it (invisibility prevents). I imagine such precedent would apply equally to writing not visible due to being rolled up.

All of this is taken straight from Spell Completion items or from the scrolls section (both SRD).

Personally, I have a rather nagging concern with someone balancing the entire contents of a backpack with one hand, as well. What's the point of a quiver, if one can simply hold 30 javelins in an off hand, and transfer them as desired to a main hand? What's the point of a backpack, if one can hold every potion they own?

I mean, if all the items are in one hand, that means Psionic:
held an alchemical item, 2 scrolls, 2 weapons, and a readied shield on one hand.

Round 1: Activated alchemical item from that hand. (no mention was made of shifting items in my LOS spoiler, and psionic just confirmed that all items were in one hand).

Round 2: Activated spell completion item from same hand.

If that's the case, what's to stop any player from buying 5 scrolls, and 6 potions, and holding them all in one hand, usable as desired?

No rule says it can't be done. No rule says it can. This is a rare opportunity for us to let a bit of common sense outside to smell the sweet, sweet air of freedom, even if only for a moment.

[candycorn]

Eh, whatever. I think it's absolutely retarded to allow abuses that flagrant, but if it's precedent, hey, let's get juggling. Wendy will take FULL advantage of this rules idiocy in future matches.... As will my other casters.

My action.

Swift: Allocate Essentia.
Move: to S8
Standard: Ready action. Blink if my opponent fully leaves my LOS, attempts to take a standard action, or attempts to end turn

Done.

Stats:Location: S8 (+15) - On Ice wall
HP: 12/12
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling
Effects active: None
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

[Psionic Dog]

On Unlimied Items in Hand Abuse: Welcome to the club.
Yep, it is idiotic. I think everyone of us agree on that. There are two famous saying related to this: "RAW is stupid. All Honor the RAW" and "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

I'd never let it go in any game I DM'ed, but RAW does state that multiple items (plural) can be held in one hand. Looking at the Light Shield entry for instance we can see that at least 3 lightweight items can be grasped in one hand. However, since none have found a limit and the Arena frowns on inventing new rules one could indeed easily hold a dozen assorted potions or scrolls in one hand. Welcome the Arena. Your sanity is optional beyond this point.

There are quite a few RAW reasons why you wouldn't want to hold everything in one hand For example:
• A stunned creature drops everything held. Watching your entire inventory fall to the ground is a Bad Thing.
• Most Ranged weapons require two hands to either use or reload. Refs have ruled that holding other items in hand prevents reloading.
• Climbing require the use of two hands.

On Items Held
My items never have teleported from one hand to the other. I stated that everything was in one hand way way way back in that very first Starting Preparation post you instead I make.

On Scrolls and Cases
While it is possible that scrolls are supposed to be rolled, it is impossible for my scrolls to be stored securely inside a case for the very good reason that Dare never purchases one of the 1gp scroll cases listed in the Goods and Services section in the first place.

As for the vision: Correct. The writing must be seen to be cast.
Once again, I apologize for omitting the technically required Free Action to shift the scroll to the top of the stack, face up. It's possible that unrolling might have also been required (likely also a free actions since the text says they are usually rolled for quick unrolling). Still, trying to cast from an unavailable scroll would have been an illegal action, not a wasted action, so the rewind to insert the necessary free action wouldn't have changed anything.

I'll look for supporting links when I post my next action to clarify the situation, and give you a chance to revise if I find anything that would change my posted turn.

[Sallera]

You can blame Jay. We all do. (See the Waiting Room around the time of Round 69 if you want the original discussion on this topic.)

We've never required someone to state the unrolling of a scroll, so I'm fairly sure they either start in a readable state or that's subsumed into the standard action to cast it. As far as I recall, though, we've said items held in a hand with others can't be "used"; no drinking potions, etc, and I believe activating the sunrod in the first round should have been switched to one hand first, but the latter's a trivial correction that would have changed nothing. Casting from a scroll doesn't involve any manipulation from the hand holding the scroll, however, only the hand performing any necessary somatic components, and if you want to get technical with the unrolling, that would also, by necessity, be performed by the hand not holding the scroll.

[candycorn]

@Psionic Dog: There is a distinct difference between "Multiple items" and "unlimited items". Imposing a limit would not be making new rules. It would be clarifying existing rules.

For example: If we stated that there was a flat 3 item limit per hand? Now we've clarified that "Multiple=3". If we state that there is no limit? We clarify that "multiple=unlimited". No matter what we state here, we are creating a clarification. And when we state that multiple=unlimited?

We're not stating "All honor the RAW". We're taking an unstated limit. Much like the rules don't explicitly say that dead characters cannot take actions, or that characters without a fly speed cannot fly.

Lack of an emplaced RAW limit DOES NOT equal an official RAW assertion that it is unlimited. That exists solely as a ruling made by refs for this arena.

Regardless, I've already conceded it, just to keep the match moving. I've already stated that, however retarded I feel this abuse is, rather than argue it, I will show, again and again, in future rounds, exactly WHY it is abusive. I mean, what ranged weapon character needs quickdraw when he can have 10 javelins, 2 tanglefoot bags, 4 Alchemist Fire, 2 Acid vials, and 14 loaded slings in his off hand?

And why would multiple items in hand prevent reloading? By the very logic you used, "RAW is stupid, All honor the RAW". The rules don't state I can't hold a canoe in one hand while reloading a light crossbow with it. Does that mean that it's allowed? Or do we impose a clarification, because and undefined amount is not the same as a defined amount of unlimited?

@Sallera: the double rolled nature of the scroll would indicate that BOTH hands unroll the scroll as part of the standard action to cast it... Not just the free hand. I have always taken this to mean that if you have other gear cluttering up your hands, you can't effectively do it.

And regardless, there is no longer any player disagreement. I've withdrawn my initial objection, on the grounds of multiple refs citing the retarded precedent. My new tactic will be to abuse the ruling so hard that action will be taken to limit me.

[Sallera]

Well, that's nigh standard tactics around here if you think something should be banned. I shall look forward to watching you try to come up with an abuse of that sufficient to get Kyeudo to ban it; I'm sure you'll manage to amuse us, at least.

[Psionic Dog]

Jay... round 69...
Found that match (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7206333#post7206333) for reference.


Dare - Round 3
Move: Draw potion with free hand.
Standard: Drink potion.
Free: drop vile vial to regain free hand.

Done

Stats
HP: 6/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 9/10
Resist Energy Acid 100/100

[candycorn]

Drinking the potion triggers my ready action.

I vanish.

Refs:Blink to W7

Any changes to your turn?

[Psionic Dog]

Depends.

Did my Horse regain your scent?

[candycorn]

Depends. Do you have a way to communicate with animal intelligence creatures to gain that information?

[Psionic Dog]

I don't need to communicate complex information to know if the mount I'm sitting on is aware of another creature nearby. Nonverbal body language is enough. "Your mount starts fidgeting as it picks up a scent" is sufficient to alert the rider, and with only one other creature in the arena identity guessing isn't needed.

I'm not sure when that precedent was first established (its been here for a while), but this match (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7268413#post7268413) confirmed that not only is the rider aware if their mount sees/hears/smells something, but if a scent pinpoint is made the rider further knows the source square.

In summery I'm pretty sure a rider automaticaly knows:
-If their mount sees something, but not who and possibly not where.
-If their mount hears something, but not what and possibly not where.
-If their mount smells something, but generally not who and possibly not where except for a pinpoint.

The who/what complex questions would probably require a Speak with Animals or something, although 'where' for listen/spot could probably be confirmed with a Handle Animal (Seek).

[candycorn]

I don't need to communicate complex information to know if the mount I'm sitting on is aware of another creature nearby. Nonverbal body language is enough. "Your mount starts fidgeting as it picks up a scent" is sufficient to alert the rider, and with only one other creature in the arena identity guessing isn't needed.

I'm not sure when that precedent was first established (its been here for a while), but this match (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7268413#post7268413) confirmed that not only is the rider aware if their mount sees/hears/smells something, but if a scent pinpoint is made the rider further knows the source square.

In summery I'm pretty sure a rider automaticaly knows:
-If their mount sees something, but not who and possibly not where.
-If their mount hears something, but not what and possibly not where.
-If their mount smells something, but generally not who and possibly not where except for a pinpoint.

The who/what complex questions would probably require a Speak with Animals or something, although 'where' for listen/spot could probably be confirmed with a Handle Animal (Seek).

I could understand knowing is a mount sees, hears, or smells something, but not which it is. Your mount fidgeting doesn't tell you if it's doing it cause it picked up a smell, or because it heard something you didn't. A simple "your mount seems to sense something" would give you every bit of information you could possibly be entitled to, without giving you information that could only be given by blatant mind-reading.

This precedent is against RAW. And I was JUST ruled against on the items in hand thing because of RAW. I would appreciate a bit of consistency here.

[candycorn]

Regardless, your mount's spider sense doesn't tingle.

I'll have to remember that 30gp will get me the equivalent of a Martial stance, now.

edit: That means that your mount doesn't scent me. Is your turn altered?

[Psionic Dog]

If you still have LoS to me:
If Wendy has LoS to Dare then Dare and/or horse probably also has LoS in return. Maybe.

So, Keeping turn. No Change.

If you don't have LoS to me then you know that the illumination didn't shift.

[candycorn]

Refs/LOS:Standard: Activate Psionic Tattoo
Move: Deploy Camouflage net

Hide: [roll0]

Done.

Stats:Location: W7 (+15) - On Ice wall, hiding
HP: 12/12
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling
Effects active: Chameleon (1/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

[Psionic Dog]

Dare - Round 4

First things first, assuming horsy doesn't see/smell anything:

Standard: Cast spell.
Cure Minor Wounds on self

Start riding east...
[roll0] DC 15

Waiting to see if cover ride was successful before picking destination.

One moment...

[Psionic Dog]

Continued

LoS

A 2.:smallyuk:

Ok Ride: East to X15/Y16, turn west to U15/V10, then, if Team Dare still haven't seen anything, end ride back at V15/W16.

Because he can, Dare will try be sneaky and hide. [roll0]


Dare ends by taking a move action to draw a torch.

Done (LoS may be needed)

Stats
HP: 7/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 8/10
Resist Energy Acid 99/100

[Sallera]

Refs:Nyar.

Dare:No LoS.

Wendy:Dare rides to X15/Y16, then back west out of sight. No net change in visible illumination.

[candycorn]

@Refs:When Dare moved, did the light move with him?

[Sallera]

Wendy:Yes.

[candycorn]

@LOS:Free: 5 foot step to V8.
Move: Activate Camo net.
Standard: Ready Action: Attack(sling) if opponent ends turn within LOS.

Hide: [roll0]
MS: [roll1]

Done.

Stats:Location: V8 (+15) - On Ice wall, hiding
HP: 12/12
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling
Effects active: Chameleon (2/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

[Psionic Dog]

Dare - Round 5

LoS
[roll0]
[roll1] DC 15
Destination to be chosen after ride result seen.

Edit:
Hmm. Riding counterclockwise around the ice chunk north of Dare to W11/X12.
If no new scent end ride there.

Standard: Cast Dancing Lights at T10/U11.
Free: Direct Lights upward to +20ft, run them forward to M10/N11/+20 and then back to S10/T11/+20.

Done (assuming no LoS Changes)

Stats
HP: 7/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 7/10
Resist Energy Acid 98/100

[Sallera]

Refs:Nyar.

Dare:Your horse smells something when you reach X11/Y12.

Wendy:Dare rides to X11/Y12.

Dare's turn still.

[Psionic Dog]

@Refs/LoS
Dare does the scent triangulation dance: back horsey up to X12/Y13 and then move diagonally up to Y11/Z12.

Rest of turn pending what horse senses from those two locations.


Also Ref Question:
If a character (Wendy) teleports into a square within LoS of another character (Dare&Horse) would they be automatically spotted or could they use assorted hide checks to arrive unseen?

That was slightly unexpected. Apparently I'm not done and require even more LoS.

[Sallera]

Refs:Nyar.

Wendy:Dare moves to X12/Y13, then to Y11/Z12. Also, I don't think I mentioned it, but he is now holding a torch in his other hand.

Dare:Your horse picks up a scent from both locations. Precedent has established that hiding while teleporting is possible, in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160084) match and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157454) one that I remember.

[Psionic Dog]

@Spectators
Ok, Scent at X11/Y12, X12/Y13, and Y11/Z12.
No Scent at Y12/Z13 or at V15/W16.

That leaves about 3 possible locations for Wendy: Only one of which is on a wall. Wendy likes standing on walls, and knows that my horse can give pinpoints if it comes within 5ft.

So, let's play battleship and guess W-7.

Continued @LoS
Finish ride at W8/X9.
Free: Drop everything held.
Move: Attempt to dismount directly onto the W7-8/+10 wall space.
[roll0] Climb DC (25 -5 perpendicular walls)
[roll1] DC 20

Climb Success=On Wall.
Failure by 5+ = fall flat to ground. Since Dare started in the horse's square I believe this is less than 10ft for no damage.
Failure by less than 5: No Progress (still on horse?)

If Dare manages to get onto wall,
Standard: Breath Acid Line into W7/+15 (the wall square)
[roll2]. REF 14 for half.

Breath recovered in
[roll3]

Other Roles
If Fast Dismount Successful, repeat.
[roll4]
This is to get back onto the horse if on wall or on ground, or a retry to get on wall if climb failed small.
[roll5] (if applicable)

Depending on which rolls succeed/fail turn may or may not be over.

Done, Pending Dice.

HP: 7/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 6/10
Resist Energy Acid 97/100

[Psionic Dog]

Ok...

@LoS
So. Dare fell of the horse as a free action, presumably taking no damage, climbed back onto the horse as another free action, leaving him still full of actions. That was odd.

Once more he retries to take the wall
[roll0]
I'd presume the previously posted climb check is used: a success. Dare breaths acid on the space he guesses Wendy to be.

If Fast Mount/Dismount #3 is also a success he ends by remounting the horse.

Done

Stats
HP: 7/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 6/10
Resist Energy Acid 97/100

[Sallera]

Refs:Nyar.

Wendy:Dare moves to W8/X9 and drops everything held. He then falls off his horse, gets back on his horse, dismounts onto the wall at W7/W8+10, and breathes a line of acid through W7+15, and your readied action triggers as he ends his turn.

Dare:Your horse smells something.

[candycorn]

At the end of your turn, my ready action triggers:

Attack (Dare): [roll0] (vs FF AC)
If Hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2] (vs FF AC)
If Crit: [roll3]

After the attack, I become visible in V8.

My turn pending result.

[candycorn]

Wendy, Round 6

Free: Drop sling.
Move: Draw loaded sling.
Free: 5 foot step to V7
Standard: Vanish (use soulmeld)

Refs:Ending in V3 (+15)
Hide: [roll0]

Done.

Stats:Location: V3 (+15) - On Ice wall, hiding
HP: 12/12
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling (loaded)
Effects active: Chameleon (3/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

Misc: unloaded sling in V8(+15)

[candycorn]

Since I had confirmation of LOS by a ref, I've looked in Psionic's spoilers addressed to LOS (post 53, 55, and 56) for the times refs confirmed constant LOS.

Did Dare fall from the wall at +10 (1d6 damage, DC 15 jump or tumble check to negate), or from his mount (1d6 damage, DC 15 Ride check to Soft Fall)?

In either case, he should have to make some sort of skill check to avoid damage, if I'm reading the rules correctly on falling and mounts. Personally, I lean towards falling from the wall, as he successfully made a fast dismount check, so arrived at the wall, but failed a climb check to hold onto it.

[Psionic Dog]

There are many interpretations to the dismount action, but only two "falling from wall" interpretations I can think of.

A) A dismounting creature becomes unmounted, and moves from their mount's space to an adjacent valid space. Dare tried to move from W8+5 to +10, but failed initially. Since the fall was from W8+5 (less than a 10ft drop) no falling damage occurred. I played off this assumption.

B) A creature moves directly to an adjacent valid space, but climb checks may be needed to remain in the location. Dare would have dismounted to W8/+10, but since he could hang directly from the top of the wall there he would only have only needed a DC (15 -5) check to hold on and remain in that space. The 11 would have succeed, no fall.

Either way, Dare wouldn't have taken falling damage: Insufficient height for the first, lower climb DC in the second.

"Falls off mount" damage potential could be argued, but seems unlikely since the act of dismounting isn't being questioned: only the ending destination.


Oh: I don't think a jump/tumble is permitted for reducing an unexpected fall, only deliberate leaps.


Edit: Wait... W8 is flanked by walls at V-9 and X7... wouldn't that have also given a -10 DC two opposite walls modifier negating the entire falling issue?

[candycorn]

A) A dismounting creature becomes unmounted, and moves from their mount's space to an adjacent valid space. Dare tried to move from W8+5 to +10, but failed initially. Since the fall was from W8+5 (less than a 10ft drop) no falling damage occurred. I played off this assumption.

Incorrect. You succeeded in moving from the mount's space to an adjacent valid space. The climb check wasn't a required check for the dismount; It was a required check for staying on the wall after the dismount. You announced the square you were dismounting to (W7-8 +10 wall space), and successfully dismounted. Thus, you successfully reached the wall space. You are now at W7-8 +10, and must make a climb check to remain there. That climb check failed... By a lot. The result is falling from W7-8 +10.... The square you dismounted to.

B) Alternate interpretation. You're on the side of a wall with a listed DC of 25 to climb (arena map). Therefore, the DC to climb the wall is 25, whether you are 5 feet down, or 10 feet down. Alternately, you announced you were on the wall, not hanging from the ledge.

In addition, "opposite walls" refers to Walls opposite YOU, not the wall. You'd need walls at (V8 and X8), or (W7 and W9) to qualify.

And falling from the mount could certainly be argued, since post 56 features you going with exactly that interpretation, rather than the dismount. Since the dismount isn't questioned, however, and the dismount was to W7-8 (+10), then you are not at (W7-8 +5). You are at (W7-8+10), and that is the square you need the climb check to hold onto. You're not climbing from (W7-8+5) to (W7-8+10). That would require a climb check as a move action. You dismounted there (successfully). Now, you failed the DC 20 climb check by more than 5. This results in a fall from (W7-8+10). As we all know, a fall from 10 feet results in 1d6 damage, with a jump or tumble check (DC 15) to negate.

[Psionic Dog]

In addition, "opposite walls" refers to Walls opposite YOU, not the wall. You'd need walls at (V8 and X8), or (W7 and W9) to qualify.

V9 and X7 *are* opposite of Dare. I see nothing that excludes diagonal opposites.


It looks like you're arguing for the combined worst (for Dare) of both interpretations. I hope you'll understand why I disagree. :smallwink:
On 'B': the entire reason I listed a 'DC 20' once again is because I assumed case A, and omitted the opposite wall modification.


So. I guess we're waiting on Ref arbitration.


Lastly, Jump/Tumble can't be used to reduce/negate any fall: just deliberate jump/drops down. Yes, this hurts my outcome slightly, but with Dare's modifiers he'd greatly prefer a soft-fall resolution if a skill save is required.

[candycorn]

The walls must be opposite each other, with you in the middle. They are not. They are perpendicular to one another in opposite squares. That's not opposite. The exact wording is "a chimney or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls". The walls you described are not a chimney, nor can you brace against them as you would in a chimney.

And I'm arguing that under either interpretation you go with, it's not in your favor.

If the dismount is successful, you went into the square at +10. That means you have a 10 foot fall from the wall.

The dismount was successful. Therefore, the above is true.

I have no problem compromising to the Soft Fall, but I don't think that there should be a result where someone should be able to fall either from a horse or a 10 foot drop, and avoid all damage without a skill check. Either one individually require skill checks to avoid damage. Both together shouldn't decrease the difficulty.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Psionic Dog, I'm sorry, but your climbing situation doesn't fit the "chimney" case. Yours fits the "corner or otherwise perpindicular walls" category, so you only get the lesser -5 to the difficulty instead of the -10.

For future note: two parallel walls to brace on = get chimney bonus. Two perpindicular walls to brace on = corner bonus. No perpidicular walls to brace on = no bonus.

Of further note, while Jump cannot reduce the damage of accidental falls, Tumble can reduce the damage of any fall, intentional or accidental.

[Psionic Dog]

Ok, no opposite walls bonus, but not much answer on what, if any, checks were needed.

I'll take your soft-fall ride compromise to get the game rolling again.

[roll0]
[roll1]

Edit: turn coming later.

[Psionic Dog]

@ Spectators
... Make that 4 spaces Wendy could have been in, 2 on a wall.
Can't believe I eliminated the obvious spot.:smallfrown:

Dare - Round 6
Assuming no scent...
Move: Pick up Scroll.
Hypnotism scroll
Free: 5-ft step horse to X8/Y9
Standard Cast Dancing Lights.
Move lights to X3/Y4 +20 ft

Done

Stats
HP: 4/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 5/10
Resist Energy Acid 96/100
Dancing Lights: 10/10

L0 Spells left: 0/2
Breath CoolDown: 1/2

Yes, I should just surrender and save myself the trouble.
No, I'm not going to deprive Candy of a fight for a Medal.

[Sallera]

Query...

Dare:I'm not seeing where you got back on the horse, since your last fast dismount failed. Don't you begin your turn still hanging from the wall?

[Psionic Dog]

Hmm. My bad.

@Refs
Really :smallbiggrin:

Why, so it is.

Thats some of the first good news I've had all game!

Ehm.

Dare - Round 6 (Try #2)

Cling with one hand.
Standard: Cast Dancing Lights to form 4 lanterns in W4/X5/+15.
Free:
• Lights to S4/T5/+15
• Lights to T10/U11/+15

Maybe Plan D: "SearchLights" will show the foe...

Not Done after all. Need LoS.

[Sallera]

LoS established as Dare's Dancing Lights appear in W4/X5+15. Wendy is in V3+15. Dare is in W8+10. Dare may revise his turn from this point.

[candycorn]

I'm not sure if it's my job or the ref's job to point out required checks for my opponent, but the damage Dare sustained while climbing on my last action should have required a climb check against the DC of the wall, or fall.

I figured it was a ref thing, along with spot checks and etc, but I wasn't sure.

Source:
You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t use a shield while climbing.

Any time you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall. Failure means you fall from your current height and sustain the appropriate falling damage.

[Psionic Dog]

Ah, there it is.

I suspected there might be a rule like that, but somehow over looked it.

[roll0] DC 10 (At top holding ledge DC 15 -5 perpendicular walls)

[roll1]

[candycorn]

Well, that takes care of that. I believe I had LOS to you the whole time, due to the sunrod you dropped in that area. Is that correct?

[Psionic Dog]

Sounds right.

Ok, figured out what I'm doing:

Continued
Move: Remount horse.
Ride to Y3/Z4.
Attempt to use horse as cover for extra protection.
[roll0] DC 15

Free: Direct Dancing Lights to V5/W6/+15

Done

Stats
HP: 4/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 5/10
Resist Energy Acid 96/100
Dancing Lights: 10/10

L0 Spells left: 0/2
Breath CoolDown: 1/2

[candycorn]

Move: NW out of V3, breaking LOS as I intentionally jump.

Remainder of turn:Ending in R2.

Jump check [roll0] dc 15
If fail: [roll1] nonlethal

Move: Deploy Camo net.
Hide: [roll2]

Done.

Stats:Location: R2 - hiding, camo net
HP: 12/12 (possible nonlethal)
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling (loaded)
Effects active: Chameleon (4/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

Misc: unloaded sling in V8(+15)

[Psionic Dog]

Dare - Round 7

LoS
Ride to T4/U5 and instruct horse to high-jump 5-ft.

[roll0] DC 15
on failure [roll1] DC 15 or [roll2]
on success [roll3] DC 20 to reach desired altitude.

Assuming that worked and no LoS, then during hang-time direct Dancing Lights to R3/S4/+15

Edit: That was... anticlimactic. Direct Lights to R3/S4/+15 anyway.

If no LoS same movement would be completed regardless of scent, but I'd still like to no where horse had scent.

Need LoS to continue.

[Sallera]

Refs:Nyar.

Dare:Scent established at W4/X5.

Wendy:Dare rides to T4/U5. The lights move to R3/S4+15.

[Psionic Dog]

When Dare dropped everything held back in Round 5 he never specified where things got dropped. If no one objects I'd like to clarify that as X9.

Continued

LoS
Ride to S5/T6 and instruct mount to take a flying high jump.

Since the jump was planed last post Dare unfortunately has to take the previous rolls: Ride-Leap was a success, but the horse only makes it 3ft off the ground.

Free: Dancing Lights to T4/U5/+15

Ride Continued: Retreat East and down to Y7/Z8.
Move: Pick up dropped club.
Ride Continued: Return, attempting a mounted high jump to end in S5/T6/+5. Since that's the end of the horses movement on success the horse will remain at +5ft until next turn.

High jump into S5/T6/+5 attempt #2:
[roll0] DC 15
[roll1] 5ft high jump, DC 20
If leap fails,
[roll2] or [roll3]

Lets see if that ends turn or if we need more LoS

Edit: :smallannoyed:
Move to U5.

Checking rolls...

Done

stats
HP: 4/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 4/10
Resist Energy Acid 95/100
Dancing Lights: 9/10

L0 Spells left: 0/2
Breath: Ready for use.

[candycorn]

Would like LOS before I go.

[Sallera]

Refs:Nyar.

Wendy:Dare rides to S5/T6 and jumps. The lights move to T4/U5+15. He then returns to Y7/Z8 and retrieves his club, then rides back to S5/T6 and attempts another jump, falling off the horse safely, then moves to U5.

Dare:No LoS, although the horse does smell something from where you were last on it.

[candycorn]

Refs/LOS:Hide:[roll0]

Standard: Ready an action: Attack Dare if I have LOS without cover to him.

Done.

Stats:Location: R2 - hiding, camo net, Ready Action
HP: 12/12 (3 nonlethal)
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Sling (loaded)
Effects active: Chameleon (5/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

Misc: unloaded sling in V8(+15)

[Psionic Dog]

Dare - Round 8

LoS
Move: Remount horse.
[roll0] DC 20

Assuming Horse still has Scent...
Ride: East until Scent is lost.
If at Y5/Z6 Dare/Horse still have scent then continue South until scent is lost.

Waiting to see where scent is lost.

LoS please.

[Sallera]

Clarification...

Wendy:Dare remounts his horse, triggering your readied action. Do you take it?

[candycorn]

Attack Dare (vs Flat-footed AC): [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

Afterwards, I do believe I become visible in R2.

[Sallera]

For clarification, this happens immediately after Dare mounts.

[Psionic Dog]

Wow, not what I expected!

A hit, but Dare still stands.

Continued

Ride to R3/S4
Free: Law-> Attack
[roll0]
[roll1]

[roll2] DC 10
[roll3] [roll4]
Add +4 attack to each if Wendy was prone.

Free: Law -> AC

Done

Stats
HP: 1/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 3/10
Resist Energy Acid 94/100
Dancing Lights: 8/10

L0 Spells left: 0/2
Breath: Ready for use.

[candycorn]

Nice! The club hits my AC on the nose. The other, sadly, misses. I do believe, however, that to direct your mount to attack, you need to issue the appropriate Handle Animal check. Further, Directing your mount to attack means you need to make the fight with mount check before you can attack, not your mount.
Source:Warhorses are war-trained, as such, this applies:

Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.
DC to successfully direct the mount to attack is 10.

Doesn't make much difference this time, as the horse attack missed and the fight with mount check succeeded. That said:

My turn:

Free:Drop sling.
Standard: Ready an action:Blink if attacked

Done.

Stats:Location: R2 - hiding, camo net
HP: 5/12 (3 nonlethal)
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied)
Effects active: Chameleon (5/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

Misc: unloaded sling in V8(+15)
unloaded sling in R2.

[Psionic Dog]

I think Precedent says directing a war-trained mount to attack a foe is done automatically. At least, handle animal has never been needed in the past 94 rounds except to strike "empty space." Good point on the Mounted Combat roll permitting the rider rather than mount to also attack however.

Dare - Round 9
Free Law->Attack

Don't direct mount to attack this time.

Dare: Grapple Attempt
Standard [roll0]
[roll1] [roll2]

Waiting to see success/failure of this tactic before concluding...

[candycorn]

As you reach for me, I vanish, appearing at P2 (+15). Continue after the standard action.

[Psionic Dog]

Continued

Ride to Q3/R4
Free: Club to teeth
Free: Law -> AC
Move/(free?): Dismount into P4/+10 (assuming that allows Opposite Walls bonus)

[roll0] (DC 20 for free)
[roll1] (DC 15)
On Failure by 4 or less no progress (still on horse?)
On Failure by 5+: [roll2] or [roll3]

Waiting to see outcome...

[Psionic Dog]

Could have gone better.

I guess Dare is still on the horse?

If so: Ride (Horse 2nd move) to S5/T6.

Done

Stats
HP: 1/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law]
Law: 2/10
Resist Energy Acid 93/100
Dancing Lights: 7/10

L0 Spells left: 0/2
Breath: Ready for use.

[candycorn]

Move: Draw loaded sling.
Standard: ready action:Attack if Dare does any of the following:
attempts to leave LOS
attempts to attack me
successfully climbs onto a wall within my LOS
ends turn

Done.

Stats:Location: P2 (+15), Readied Action
HP: 5/12 (3 nonlethal)
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Loaded Sling
Effects active: Chameleon (6/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded), Blink Shirt (1)

Misc: unloaded sling in V8(+15)
unloaded sling in R2.

[Psionic Dog]

Dare - Round 10

Ride to V1/W2
[roll0]

Continue Ride to Q1/R2/+5
[roll1]
[roll2]

rest of turn pending roll results...

[Psionic Dog]

I'm assuming that didn't trigger anything.

Continued
Standard: Start Singing.

Ride: to S5/T6, still using mount for cover.

Done

Stats
HP: 1/9
AC: 18 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield +3 law] +4 cover
Law: 1/10
Resist Energy Acid 92/100
Dancing Lights: 6/10
Bard Song: Singing!

L0 Spells left: 0/2
Breath: Ready for use.

[candycorn]

Ending turn triggers it.

Attack:[roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

[candycorn]

If you're still up:

Drop Sling.

Draw loaded sling.
Swift: Allocate Essentia

Ready Action:Attack the horse (spittle) if Dare does any of the following: attempts to leave LOS
attempts to attack me
successfully climbs onto a wall within my LOS
attempts to move to more than 30 feet away
ends turn

Done.

Stats:Location: P2 (+15), Readied Action
HP: 5/12 (3 nonlethal)
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Loaded Sling
Effects active: Chameleon (7/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (0), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded)(2), Blink Shirt (0)

Misc: unloaded sling in V8(+15)
unloaded sling in R2.
unloaded sling in P2(+15)

[Psionic Dog]

With cover, a miss.

Dare - Round 11
Free: Continue singing.

Try try again.
Ride to V1/W2
[roll0]

Attempt to ride back to Q1/R2/+5
[roll1]
[roll2]

Checking results...

[Psionic Dog]

Err, not so good.

[roll0] Else [roll1]

Move: Remount Horse
[roll2]

Move: Draw Javlin.

If Quick mount a successfully:
Standard: [roll3] [roll4]

Ride back to S5/T6.

Done

Stats
HP: 1/9
AC: 15 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield] +4 cover
Resist Energy Acid 91/100
Dancing Lights: 5/10
Bard Song: Singing!

L0 Spells left: 0/2
Breath: Ready for use.

[candycorn]

Attacking triggers the ready action.

Dissolving Spittle on the Horse.
Range Touch: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1] Acid

Following that, the attack misses.

[candycorn]

If the quick mount was unsuccessful, the ready action would also trigger on attempting to move greater than 30 feet away, or ending turn.

Does this affect your turn?

(Also note that when you use ranged weapons on a turn that your mount takes a double move, you take a -4 penalty on the attack).

[candycorn]

If I'm looking at everything right, you're still within 30 feet, so that triggers at turn end.

Provided that is the case:

Spittle attack on horse again: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]
Swift: Allocate Essentia.

Done.

[candycorn]

Whoops, Stats:Location: P2 (+15)
HP: 5/12 (3 nonlethal)
AC: 24 (Touch 16, FF 19)
In Hand: Heavy Shield (readied), Loaded Sling
Effects active: Chameleon (8/100)
Melds Active: Wormtail (1), Dissolving Spittle (Expanded)(1), Blink Shirt (0)

Misc: unloaded sling in V8(+15)
unloaded sling in R2.
unloaded sling in P2(+15)

[Psionic Dog]

A readied action (singular) may only be taken once by RAW, and by Arena Precedent is only triggered once. So having trigger conditions met more than once doesn't benefit you any.

Dare's turn ends as posted.

Was that last post Wendy's latest turn or a superfluous "ready action trigger?"

[candycorn]

A readied action (singular) may only be taken once by RAW, and by Arena Precedent is only triggered once. So having trigger conditions met more than once doesn't benefit you any.

Dare's turn ends as posted.

Was that last post Wendy's latest turn or a superfluous "ready action trigger?"

I know. I was just stating that since the attack trigger wasn't met (due to failing the swift mount check), the trigger would have been met regardless, by the remainder of the triggers that I set. The ready action is taken at the first opportunity (which, if I'm looking at everything right, is turn end), and the follow up post is my following turn.

[Psionic Dog]

Ah, I see.

So my horse is now down 19 hp. :smallfrown:

Dare - Round 12
Free: Sing Sing Sing.

Ride clockwise around to N4/O5, attempting to jump to +5 elevation.
Free: Direct Dancing Lights with me to illuminate path.
[roll0]
[roll1]

[candycorn]

That's the downside of using things for cover. After a while, they're gonna get hit. If the horse is giving you an unacceptable AC bonus, along with mobility, I'll have to remove it as an option, for this match, at least.

[Psionic Dog]

Finally!

Free: Drop club in P3.
Move: Dismount to P3.
[roll0]
Auto succeed Climb (DC 15 Pull up -10 opposite wall)

Standard: Attempt Grapple
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

If Rapid dismount successful and Grapple failed then
Move: Pick up club.

Done

Stats
HP: 1/9
AC: 15 [+1 dex +3 armor +1 shield] +4 cover
Resist Energy Acid 90/100
Dancing Lights: 4/10
Bard Song: Singing!

L0 Spells left: 0/2
Breath: Ready for use.

[candycorn]

Ummm... You cleared a 6 foot jump. The vertical reach for a medium creature is 8 feet (source: SRD, Jump skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm)). Whether you're counting yourself (a medium creature) or your horse (a large quadruped, which counts as medium), the total vertical reach you have, after the jump, is 14 feet.

Since the DC 15 Pull up check requires that you reach the top of the wall (15 feet up), by my calculations, you're a foot short, and have to deal with the actual climb check. (DC 25 - 10 opposite wall)

[Psionic Dog]

My thinking was that by convention Dare&Horse occupy a 10x10 cube: and jumping 5 ft places the top of that at +15, even with the wall top.

Basically, mounted jump, dismount at the high point, horse lands leaving the Dwarf topside.

Let me call a ref and find out if the cubic volume representation applies to jump reach too.

[candycorn]

My thinking was that by convention Dare&Horse occupy a 10x10 cube: and jumping 5 ft places the top of that at +15, even with the wall top.

Basically, mounted jump, dismount at the high point, horse lands leaving the Dwarf topside.

Let me call a ref and find out if the cubic volume representation applies to jump reach too.

The rules on vertical reach are pretty clear. A medium creature has a total vertical reach of 8 feet. For medium creatures which occupy a 5x5 space, that means they can reach 3 feet higher than themselves without jumping.

For medium creatures which occupy a 10x10 space (such as a rider on a horse) or a creature which counts as medium (such as a large quadruped), their reach is actually 2 feet LESS than the space they occupy.


High Jump

A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead. The DC is equal to 4 times the distance to be cleared.

If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired height. If you wish to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. If you fail the Jump check, you do not reach the height, and you land on your feet in the same spot from which you jumped. As with a long jump, the DC is doubled if you do not get a running start of at least 20 feet.

{table=head]Vertical Reach Creature Size | Vertical Reach
Colossal | 128 ft.
Gargantuan | 64 ft.
Huge | 32 ft.
Large | 16 ft.
Medium | 8 ft.
Small | 4 ft.
Tiny | 2 ft.
Diminutive | 1 ft.
Fine | ½ ft.[/table]

Obviously, the difficulty of reaching a given height varies according to the size of the character or creature. The maximum vertical reach (height the creature can reach without jumping) for an average creature of a given size is shown on the table below. (As a Medium creature, a typical human can reach 8 feet without jumping.)

Quadrupedal creatures don’t have the same vertical reach as a bipedal creature; treat them as being one size category smaller.

The height you're trying to reach is 15 feet. Based on vertical reach rules (linked and quoted), you have a vertical reach of 8 feet without jumping. This means you need a 7 foot jump to reach that 15 foot height.

You made a 6 foot jump. This means that you did not make that 15 foot height.

[Psionic Dog]

Well, I was hoping for an opinion on our mounted height simplification convention and vertical reach. If no one responds all we have is Raw, and the rules does seem painfully clear on jumping/reach.

I suppose I could try arguing that a mounted character adds their height to their mounts for reach... but that is a stretch at best and has wonky implications too so no.


Anyway, lets try that roll. The worst that could happen is a failure leaves us waiting another day.

On success you're free to act.
On failure I'd like to wait one more day to see if we get any ref comments.

[roll0] DC 15

[candycorn]

Fair enough on all fronts. I won't even mind extending that to two or three days, in the event one isn't sufficient. I'd prefer to have the right ruling to the fastest one, even if that may go against me. As you've pointed out, it's not absolutely critical, given that the follow up touch attack missed anyway.

EDIT: I wouldn't consider adding the reaches together unless you were standing on your mount (epic riding, DC 40). The most I would personally use is relative reach. I.E., a medium biped's relative reach is 3 feet greater than the space it occupies. (Since you occupy a 10x10x10 cube, that would mean a 13 foot reach, rather than an 8 foot reach). That is not directly in keeping with the RAW, but it could be possibly argued that a mounted human reaching up may not fall under the rules text of "average creature of a given size".

[Psionic Dog]

Well...

We've waited not a day or three but four and still no ref. Looks like this on is Raw.

So, I concede.

Not just the issue, but the match too. Congrats, you win. :wistfulsmile: Dare's done the best he could against an expert telleporting wall-hoping sniper but I fear there is only financial loss left with minimal chance of victory.

[candycorn]

Expert? I made a big error earlier. If I'd readied an action to attack instead of actually attacking you while you were all cover riding, I would have caught you climbing the wall, which would have negated that ride cover, dex to AC, and the shield bonus. It was definately a learning experience.

[Sallera]

High Ref Sallera

Wendy takes the victory.

[Psionic Dog]

Yah, this was a learning experience. For example, those Scrolls of Hypnotism seemed great when I was looking at Wendy's will save, but much less so when I belatedly considered how easy you could teleport out of range. Also... !

!!!

You had NL damage? You mean I could have ended this with a lucky breath attack??

Ok, sure you had Dare down to 1hp and the horse down to 3hp but still to have come so so close...

[candycorn]

Yah, this was a learning experience. For example, those Scrolls of Hypnotism seemed great when I was looking at Wendy's will save, but much less so when I belatedly considered how easy you could teleport out of range. Also... !

!!!

You had NL damage? You mean I could have ended this with a lucky breath attack??

Ok, sure you had Dare down to 1hp and the horse down to 3hp but still to have come so so close...

I wasn't gonna advertise that, lol... But I was sweating bullets. I failed a jump check when jumping down from a ledge to get my hide back. It would have had to have been a low damage breath though. High enough, and I'd have gone into negatives, where rageclaws would have protected me.