PDA

View Full Version : But a shark can't breath acid! (and other conundrums of the educated gamer)



gregunderscorem
2010-10-22, 12:09 PM
So in your experience, how "realistic" do people tend to like D&D campaigns? In some cases, magic is the obvious answer to any oddities, and in others it's for game balance or flow or just the fact that PCs are heroes, but sometimes you just have to ask yourself: can a halfling barbarian weighing 35 lbs really carry 50 lbs and still be only lightly encumbered?

For me, there's kind of a fuzzy limit between the right amount of common sense and too much. It always starts off pretty simple, like calculating the hypotenuse from across the bridge to the top of the tower ("See? that's actually three range increments."), but eventually you're arguing about the impossible ecology of the monsters in a dungeon crawl, or the geological implications of the volcano over the evil lair, and things tend to go downhill from there.

Thoughts? Stories? Nonsensical rules you just can't stand?

Aharon
2010-10-22, 12:13 PM
In a world where the players can do impossible things from the start, I don't tend to think about that a lot.

DrWeird
2010-10-22, 12:15 PM
Step 1: Get yourself and a friend in a nice, open area.

Step 2: Make sure your carrying weight (Overhead?) is more or equal to their weight, and the same goes for them for your weight.

Step 3: Pick up your willing friend into the air.

Step 4: Then, have him pick you up.

Step 5: From there, pick him up, and repeat ad naseum. Which might be quick.

Step 6: Achieve (vertical) Flight.

The rules really overlook some basic physics like this, which was largely an example, but this could go under common sense; still, it's one of those inconsistencies I picked up. Also, I think since picking up an object is a free action, you could reach extreme altitudes in under six seconds.

Next stop, Celestia.

Duos Greanleef
2010-10-22, 12:17 PM
We had a similar instance last night.
Th halfling rogue had just scaled a clock tower via a rope with a grappling hook.
Ranger McSmashdumb decided it would be a good idea to try and climb that rope as well.
The halfling had only made it about a third of the way up the tower, and wasn't going to be able to reuse the rope to climb further. So, in anger (with a natural 18 STR check) he lifted the grappling hook and dropped it to the world below.
The rogue is 3'2" and the Half-Orc weighs 250lbs naked.
Gotta love fantasy dice.

Il_Vec
2010-10-22, 12:17 PM
can a halfling barbarian weighing 35 lbs really carry 50 lbs and still be only lightly encumbered?

On latin america it is kinda common to see small people, sometimes very elderly, who can carry a lot of weigh and go up and down mountain passes all day long.



the volcano over the evil lair

That is a sight to be seen.

jiriku
2010-10-22, 12:18 PM
My beef is not that the setting should be consistent with real-world physics, but that the setting should be consistent with itself.

For example, if my DM tells me that the world is basically fantasy Earth, even down to all the continents being the same place and in the same shape, then I expect the laws of physics to be what I'm used to. If I find a way to drop a 12-ton weight from 30 miles up in the atmosphere, it had better make a a hell of a crater when it hits, not just deal 20d6 damage to anyone in the 5'-square it lands in.

OTOH, if my DM says the moon is actually the eye of a god and the stars are actually pinprick holes in a great black curtain that separates the world from the astral plane, that's fine. But when aliens from another planet invade, I'm going to look at him funny, because according to this world's cosmology, there are no other planets for aliens to come from.

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-22, 12:21 PM
But a shark can't breath acid!

actually the shark would be fine breathing no matter the Ph level, it's more a shark that takes more damage (even if that damage is getting stabbed in the fin repeatedly) than 10+his hit points can't breath at all!

That being said i draw the line when it stops amusing me.

ex. letting a winged shadow varag monk take a feat to deal damage to himself and others through sonic booms= fun

ex. assigning winged shadow varag monk an arbitraty acceleration/ deceleration rate because he's going "too fast"= not fun, just nerfing a guy because he built for one (pointless) thing too strongly

it's a game, it's fun reality shouldn't make your game less fun, it does that to every thing else already.

Greenish
2010-10-22, 12:28 PM
But a shark can't breath acid!Apply Acid-born template from Dungeonscape. Now the shark can breath acid, is immune to acid damage, and has an acid bite attack.

Telonius
2010-10-22, 12:33 PM
Awaken him and give him a level of Warlock, and he can shoot laser beams too!:smalleek:

gregunderscorem
2010-10-22, 01:21 PM
Apply Acid-born template from Dungeonscape. Now the shark can breath acid, is immune to acid damage, and has an acid bite attack.

Ah, I knew I was asking for trouble when I named the thread that, but I just couldn't resist the reference to one of my favorite OOTS scenes.

For further consideration: The Acid-born Shark in any natural environment would quickly have their bloodstream swamped with urea to lethal levels in an attempt to maintain osmotic balance as the soils and other surround materials are dissolved into the aquatic medium.

But that's clearly too much thinking. That level of realism would obviously derail game flow (and this thread:smallsmile:) but still I am compelled to point it out. I'm assuming this tic applies to some of my fellow gamers as well?

Greenish
2010-10-22, 01:24 PM
For further consideration: The Acid-born Shark in any natural environment would quickly have their bloodstream swamped with urea to lethal levels in an attempt to maintain osmotic balance as the soils and other surround materials are dissolved into the aquatic medium.Only if you assume that acid ignores hardness.

mootoall
2010-10-22, 01:27 PM
Oh, the commoner rail gun ... the perfect example of D&D physics.

Tiki Snakes
2010-10-22, 01:28 PM
If we start from the assumption that there is, infact, an acid-born shark floating around in the lake of acid infront of us, then the logical assumption is that it already has some biological mechanism to deal with that.
Because look, there it is.
If it had lethal levels of stuff in it's blood-stream, it would have died a long time ago, and we wouldn't have been able to find and see it in the first place.

Greenish
2010-10-22, 01:32 PM
If we start from the assumption that there is, infact, an acid-born shark floating around in the lake of acid infront of us, then the logical assumption is that it already has some biological mechanism to deal with that.Indeed, since the acid-born template has other, seemingly unrelated effects to the creature, it's fair to say that it's physiology is adapted to the life in acid lakes and seas of the bad guys' lairs.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-22, 01:35 PM
So in your experience, how "realistic" do people tend to like D&D campaigns? In some cases, magic is the obvious answer to any oddities, and in others it's for game balance or flow or just the fact that PCs are heroes, but sometimes you just have to ask yourself: can a halfling barbarian weighing 35 lbs really carry 50 lbs and still be only lightly encumbered?

For me, there's kind of a fuzzy limit between the right amount of common sense and too much. It always starts off pretty simple, like calculating the hypotenuse from across the bridge to the top of the tower ("See? that's actually three range increments."), but eventually you're arguing about the impossible ecology of the monsters in a dungeon crawl, or the geological implications of the volcano over the evil lair, and things tend to go downhill from there.

Thoughts? Stories? Nonsensical rules you just can't stand?

For me, this is the wrong question. What is desired is a consistent world with maximum verisimilitude and immersion. You want to maintain a certain atmosphere, and suspension of disbelief. Whether those things are actually realistic is not actually a concern to just about anybody. In fact, if we're talking about suspension of disbelief with modern audiences, sometimes Reality is Unrealistic. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic) Cinematographers now purposely add in stuff like "lens flares" to make things more "realistic" even though it is anything but. This is because when people say "realistic" they often don't actually really mean "like reality," whether they realize it or not.

People care that Magic A is Magic A (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA), not that you broke the Square Cube Law (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquareCubeLaw) by making Monstrous Scorpions exist as functional creatures.

gregunderscorem
2010-10-22, 01:37 PM
Discussion on acid-shark physiology is not at all why I started this thread but it's so cool I don't even care.

My inner nerd dances with glee (and awkwardly).

gregunderscorem
2010-10-22, 01:40 PM
For me, this is the wrong question. What is desired is a consistent world with maximum verisimilitude and immersion. Whether those things are actually realistic is not actually a concern to just about anybody. In fact, if we're talking about suspension of disbelief with modern audiences, sometimes Reality is Unrealistic. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic)

Consistency is key, especially for immersion, which leads to the best games, I couldn't agree more. I was just wondering where people tended to draw the line.

Draconi Redfir
2010-10-22, 01:46 PM
you guys are all missing the point here.


can sharks breath LAVA!?

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-22, 01:46 PM
Consistency is key, especially for immersion, which leads to the best games, I couldn't agree more. I was just wondering where people tended to draw the line.

You may want to check the post you just quoted, I edited it a bit while you were apparently already replying.

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-22, 01:53 PM
you guys are all missing the point here.


can sharks breath LAVA!?

can you oxygenate lava?

BenInHB
2010-10-22, 01:54 PM
My beef is not that the setting should be consistent with real-world physics, but that the setting should be consistent with itself.


This is the key.

Remember if you can do it i want to be able to do it too.

I hate it when the DM has the bad guys break rules that i have to follow with no explanation for why they don't apply the same.

FuryOfMetal
2010-10-22, 04:26 PM
Me and my gaming group deduced that half dragons have downs syndrome. However I forgot how we came to the conclusion that dragons would have more or less chromosomes than a human....

I had to chant the phrase "They're magic damnit!" to get them to carry on playing.

Volthawk
2010-10-22, 04:32 PM
you guys are all missing the point here.


can sharks breath LAVA!?

Well, acidborn does say it can be adapted for lava-breathing things, "in defiance of all logic" (quote from the book).

mootoall
2010-10-22, 04:34 PM
For me, this is the wrong question. What is desired is a consistent world with maximum verisimilitude and immersion. You want to maintain a certain atmosphere, and suspension of disbelief. Whether those things are actually realistic is not actually a concern to just about anybody. In fact, if we're talking about suspension of disbelief with modern audiences, sometimes Reality is Unrealistic. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic) Cinematographers now purposely add in stuff like "lens flares" to make things more "realistic" even though it is anything but. This is because when people say "realistic" they often don't actually really mean "like reality," whether they realize it or not.

People care that Magic A is Magic A (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA), not that you broke the Square Cube Law (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquareCubeLaw) by making Monstrous Scorpions exist as functional creatures.

OH DEAR GOD SO MUCH TVTROPES IT HURTS MY BRAIN

Mercenary Pen
2010-10-22, 04:48 PM
Has to be said, my first and most frequent house rule is this:

The laws of physics do not exist. Occasionally the magic of the setting emulates them relatively closely in ways described by the game rules or by myself, but otherwise no such luck.

Admiral Squish
2010-10-22, 04:58 PM
Oooh! Make it a horrid shark! It's bigger, nastier, with better NA, a bigger, badder bite, as well as being both immune to acid and delivering an acid bite attack.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-10-22, 07:29 PM
Meh, most oddities are hand-waved away with magic. The one thing that really gets my group, though, is the fact that geometry completely breaks down, since moving diagonally on a grid is technically the same distance as moving straight. Right triangles are equilateral. Math fails. Universe implodes.

I've decided that the world is actually curved on a 4th-dimensional plane, and space itself is squished in such a way that all the diagonals are shorter than normal, and the straight lines are stretched.

Greenish
2010-10-22, 07:41 PM
moving diagonally on a grid is technically the same distance as moving straight.Moving diagonally is actually 1.5 squares. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#diagonals)

herrhauptmann
2010-10-22, 08:18 PM
Moving diagonally is actually 1.5 squares. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#diagonals)
In 4E, diagonal is the same distance as the cardinal directions. That could be what Fuzzie plays primarily

Oooh! Make it a horrid shark! It's bigger, nastier, with better NA, a bigger, badder bite, as well as being both immune to acid and delivering an acid bite attack.

Dire sharks. They have bony ridges sticking out of their bodies like all Dire creatures do, except that sharks Don't. Have. Bones.

Drakyn
2010-10-22, 08:25 PM
Dire sharks. They have bony ridges sticking out of their bodies like all Dire creatures do, except that sharks Don't. Have. Bones.

Well, there is one possible source of those bony spikes. The dire shark just grew extra teeth through its skin all over its body.
That's one hardcore fish.

Jack_Simth
2010-10-22, 08:26 PM
Moving diagonally is actually 1.5 squares. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#diagonals)
Yep. And you have to go a fairly large distance before the distinction between that approximation and the real-world value exceeds the five-foot square size of the battle grid.

jguy
2010-10-22, 08:37 PM
Well, there is one possible source of those bony spikes. The dire shark just grew extra teeth through its skin all over its body.
That's one hardcore fish.

Or cartilage

Rising Phoenix
2010-10-22, 09:13 PM
If we start from the assumption that there is, infact, an acid-born shark floating around in the lake of acid infront of us, then the logical assumption is that it already has some biological mechanism to deal with that.
Because look, there it is.
If it had lethal levels of stuff in it's blood-stream, it would have died a long time ago, and we wouldn't have been able to find and see it in the first place.

It also indicates that there must be an acid born templated ecosystem in the lake since the shark is a top predator...

Jack_Simth
2010-10-22, 09:19 PM
It also indicates that there must be an acid born templated ecosystem in the lake since the shark is a top predator...
So acid-born algae, acid-born snails, acid-born bottom feeders.

Hmm... does the acid-born template add a bite attack where none existed before? Because if so, that acid-born algae will be rather... painful... to swim through.

Lev
2010-10-22, 09:23 PM
The best solution for a fantasy world filled with things that don't fit into the RL flow is a circle of friends who aren't lost in their own fantasies.

I've had people argue that you wouldn't get tired if you ran in full 200lb platemail and gear before-- it's an asset to have some RL experience in whatever you decide to play, and all around knowhow and flexibility if you are a DM.

Rising Phoenix
2010-10-22, 09:28 PM
So acid-born algae, acid-born snails, acid-born bottom feeders.

Hmm... does the acid-born template add a bite attack where none existed before? Because if so, that acid-born algae will be rather... painful... to swim through.

I don't think you'll be able to tell the difference. You know... all that acid probably makes you oblivious to being bitten.

Jack_Simth
2010-10-22, 09:46 PM
I don't think you'll be able to tell the difference. You know... all that acid probably makes you oblivious to being bitten.I'm assuming you've got Energy Immunity(Acid) (Spell Compendium) running for the swim.

Greenish
2010-10-22, 10:30 PM
It also indicates that there must be an acid born templated ecosystem in the lake since the shark is a top predator...

So acid-born algae, acid-born snails, acid-born bottom feeders.

Hmm... does the acid-born template add a bite attack where none existed before? Because if so, that acid-born algae will be rather... painful... to swim through.Acid-born adds 1d6 acid damage to existing natural weapons. And it can be applied to any animal, plant, vermin or magical beast. I'm not sure whether algae fits to any of those, but an ecosystem seems possible.

I've had people argue that you wouldn't get tired if you ran in full 200lb platemail and gear before-- it's an asset to have some RL experience in whatever you decide to play, and all around knowhow and flexibility if you are a DM.I haven't much RL experience, but 200 lb plate sounds somewhat excessive. :smallamused:

herrhauptmann
2010-10-22, 10:34 PM
I've had people argue that you wouldn't get tired if you ran in full 200lb platemail and gear before-- it's an asset to have some RL experience in whatever you decide to play, and all around knowhow and flexibility if you are a DM.
*facepalm*
Lemme guess, the people who argued this are the type with arms like pipecleaners, a chest like a washboard, and a belly like a sack of dough. Probably massive acne and neckbeards too, right?
Had they ever gone and I dunno, tried to go camping/hiking with just 60-70 pounds? Even if half the weight is distributed throughout your body instead of just hanging off shoulderstraps, 200# is A LOT of gear.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-22, 10:37 PM
not that you broke the Square Cube Law (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquareCubeLaw) by making Monstrous Scorpions exist as functional creatures.

I'm not sure that actually does. Arthropods can grow to amazing sizes, provided you supply them with high oxygen levels. The planet once housed 12 foot sea scorpions, afterall (of course, its legs were only about a foot long each and it probably would have a hard time outrunning a snail, but its the thought that counts.)

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-10-22, 11:33 PM
Moving diagonally is actually 1.5 squares. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#diagonals)

See below. Also, that's still not mathematically accurate. a^2 + b^2 = c^2, after all, so if a and b are both 1, c should be √2. (1.41421...) But still, that's closer than the 4e rules. But also more complex, so whatever.


In 4E, diagonal is the same distance as the cardinal directions. That could be what Fuzzie plays primarily.[/B][/I]

Ding ding ding! I forgot that 3.5 had the above rule. I do, in fact, play 4e, so any weird rules I point out will probably be from that edition.

EDIT:

I'm not sure that actually does. Arthropods can grow to amazing sizes, provided you supply them with high oxygen levels. The planet once housed 12 foot sea scorpions, afterall (of course, its legs were only about a foot long each and it probably would have a hard time outrunning a snail, but its the thought that counts.)

Water is a great cushion. Things can be bigger in the water, since it's very cold down there, so normal rules about overheating are reversed. See also: whales.

John Campbell
2010-10-23, 02:33 AM
I've had people argue that you wouldn't get tired if you ran in full 200lb platemail and gear before-- it's an asset to have some RL experience in whatever you decide to play, and all around knowhow and flexibility if you are a DM.
I haven't much RL experience, but 200 lb plate sounds somewhat excessive. :smallamused:

I do have much RL experience. My plate armor weighs about 45 pounds.

There have been a couple of times that DMs have tried to tell me that something was impossible to do while wearing plate, so I got it out of my trunk and demonstrated.

Lev
2010-10-23, 04:07 AM
*facepalm*
Lemme guess, the people who argued this are the type with arms like pipecleaners, a chest like a washboard, and a belly like a sack of dough. Probably massive acne and neckbeards too, right?
Had they ever gone and I dunno, tried to go camping/hiking with just 60-70 pounds? Even if half the weight is distributed throughout your body instead of just hanging off shoulderstraps, 200# is A LOT of gear.
Yeah about a 15 year old whitest kid you know.


I do have much RL experience. My plate armor weighs about 45 pounds.

There have been a couple of times that DMs have tried to tell me that something was impossible to do while wearing plate, so I got it out of my trunk and demonstrated.
It's not that it's impossible to do things while wearing plate, I'm just saying that there's a big difference between a bad t-shirt and jeans and a giant slab of metal in terms of how it effects your cardiovascular system.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-23, 05:03 AM
I'm not sure that actually does. Arthropods can grow to amazing sizes, provided you supply them with high oxygen levels. The planet once housed 12 foot sea scorpions, afterall

Somewhere a poor abused biologist is crying that you used eurypterids to say that you're not sure that D&D Monstrous Scorpions aren't realistic. Shame on you. Please think of the biologists!

DwarfFighter
2010-10-23, 05:52 AM
sometimes you just have to ask yourself: can a halfling barbarian weighing 35 lbs really carry 50 lbs and still be only lightly encumbered?


Heh. Small characters seem to get the best of both worlds. :) Armour and weapons of their size category tends are half the weight, and their load limits are the same as for a medium-size character of comparable strength.

-DF

Cogidubnus
2010-10-23, 06:27 AM
can you oxygenate lava?

No, because gases dissolve really badly in things that hot.

But what if it gets energy by the decomposition of rocks, rather than the breakdown of glucose? Then it doesn't NEED oxygen.

And this is why we have the Rule of Cool.

Eldan
2010-10-23, 08:23 AM
Somewhere a poor abused biologist is crying that you used eurypterids to say that you're not sure that D&D Monstrous Scorpions aren't realistic. Shame on you. Please think of the biologists!

Yes, yes I am. What have they ever done to you?


I also want a sulphur-reducing shark now.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-23, 09:02 AM
Somewhere a poor abused biologist is crying that you used eurypterids to say that you're not sure that D&D Monstrous Scorpions aren't realistic.


Yes, yes I am.

See! Look what your actions have wrought, TvTyrant! Look what they have wrought!

What have the biologists ever done to you? :smallfrown:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 09:04 AM
you guys are all missing the point here.


can sharks breath LAVA!?

1/2 Fiend Sharks can. As long as you have 1 point of fire resist, you are immune to Lava.

John Campbell
2010-10-23, 09:10 AM
It's not that it's impossible to do things while wearing plate, I'm just saying that there's a big difference between a bad t-shirt and jeans and a giant slab of metal in terms of how it effects your cardiovascular system.

There's also a big difference between a scrawny 15-year-old and his 20-Str 16-Con half-orc PC who gets Endurance as a class feature and for whom 133 pounds is a light load. Hell, there's a big difference between me and my 20-Str 16-Con half-orc PC, who got Endurance as a class feature, and for whom 133 pounds is a light load, and I've been fighting in armor for a decade and a half.

(One of those differences: I have Heavy Armor Proficiency; my character doesn't.)

And if you think that plate armor weighs anything close to 200 pounds, you've got no room to be criticising anyone else's grasp of how it works.

More generally, almost everyone who doesn't have direct experience wildly overestimates how heavy and encumbering armor is. (This includes WotC and their rules.) I blame Hollywood.

Callos_DeTerran
2010-10-23, 09:19 AM
1/2 Fiend Sharks can. As long as you have 1 point of fire resist, you are immune to Lava.

Er...1 point of fire resistance will not negate the 20d6 damage/round of being immersed in lava. Or even the....er...well...I forget the damage for being 'splashed' with lava, but it was multiple d6's so there you go.

...Thus the lava-born template. Creating sharks/octopuses with lava bites/tentacles.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 09:27 AM
Er...1 point of fire resistance will not negate the 20d6 damage/round of being immersed in lava. Or even the....er...well...I forget the damage for being 'splashed' with lava, but it was multiple d6's so there you go.

...Thus the lava-born template. Creating sharks/octopuses with lava bites/tentacles.

Did you recently read the book (DMG)?
An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma.

BunnyMaster42
2010-10-23, 10:45 AM
Heh. Small characters seem to get the best of both worlds. :) Armour and weapons of their size category tends are half the weight, and their load limits are the same as for a medium-size character of comparable strength.

-DF

Actually, small chacters have 3/4 of the carrying capacity of medium characters according to the SRD.


Did you recently read the book (DMG)?
An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma.

Uh, where exactally does it say that? The only thing I could find on energy resistance states that it only provides resistance to the energy type in question, regardless of its source (magical or mundane). So no, fire resistance 1 does not provide immunity to mundane fire or lava, it simply provides resistance to it. Oh, there it is. Well, that's just stupid really, how does Fire Resistance 1 provide immunity to lave and magma when it doesn't prevent you from taking damage from your standard campfire?

Oh well, even if Fire Resistance does provide immunity to lava/magma, a fiendish shark has no way of breathing in the lava without the lava-born template.

Greenish
2010-10-23, 11:00 AM
1/2 Fiend Sharks can. As long as you have 1 point of fire resist, you are immune to Lava.That doesn't necessarily mean that they can breathe molten rock. Though none of the creatures that have burrow speed (to my knowledge) specify that they can breathe underground…

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 11:06 AM
Yes, I hope to exucate the world of how resistance and immunity the same for Lava.

Anyone can breathe lava if it weren't for the heat.

Greenish
2010-10-23, 11:09 AM
Yes, I hope to exucate the world of how resistance and immunity the same for Lava.

Anyone can breathe lava if it weren't for the heat.Since you so like that passage of rules, you should be familiar with this:
However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 11:14 AM
Since you so like that passage of rules, you should be familiar with this:
What meant is water and lava are the same in that you (as a human) drown because you aren't meant to live in it. You can't acquire oxygen with gills.

So it is a shark, they don't drown in water, so if it weren't for the heat they could live in lava.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-23, 11:49 AM
Heh. Small characters seem to get the best of both worlds. :) Armour and weapons of their size category tends are half the weight, and their load limits are the same as for a medium-size character of comparable strength.

-DF
But a lot (not all, but a lot) of small creatures also get racial penalties to strength. Add in the rule about their load limits being 75% of a medium's, and I think it evens out pretty nicely.




I do have much RL experience. My plate armor weighs about 45 pounds.

There have been a couple of times that DMs have tried to tell me that something was impossible to do while wearing plate, so I got it out of my trunk and demonstrated.
I'm curious, SCA, Adrian, something else? Were you able to make some/most, or did you have to buy it?

hotel_papa
2010-10-23, 12:18 PM
Anyone can breathe lava if it weren't for the heat.

...What?

No, really. What?!?

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-23, 12:19 PM
Anyone can breathe lava if it weren't for the heat.

You can breathe rocks?


...What?

No, really. What?!?

Seconded.

Admiral Squish
2010-10-23, 12:23 PM
Well, there is one possible source of those bony spikes. The dire shark just grew extra teeth through its skin all over its body.
That's one hardcore fish.

Well, they're already covered with what are, effectively, tiny teeth. They'd just get bigger, nastier, and thicker.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 12:26 PM
You can breathe rocks?



Seconded.

I already edited my post. I meant lava without the being harmed by the lava, would be more akin to water than rocks: Remember it is is liquid now.

So a Shark immune to heat wouldn't be harmed and could reasonably find oxygen. If humans had gills and we unharmed by lava, we too could breath in it.
Lava is mostly oxygen (okay silicon too):
http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Controls.html

Captain Six
2010-10-23, 12:31 PM
Oh, the commoner rail gun ... the perfect example of D&D physics.

The commoner rail gun doesn't work in D&D physics. It relies that D&D physics are being used when building speed (passing an object to the next person as a free action) but then starts using real physics at the end when it is released (object in motion stays in motion). If D&D physics were fully implemented the object/bullet would build ludicrous speed and when the last commoner lets go it simply falls harmlessly to the ground at his feet, that's how D&D dropping works.

Moriato
2010-10-23, 12:31 PM
I knew a player once who swore that his shield, which he polished to a mirror shine, should be able to reflect a Lightning Bolt spell.

A polished METAL shield. Reflecting lightning. Yeah.

Grommen
2010-10-23, 12:37 PM
If I had a dime for every time I had to tell players to get their reality out of my fantasy I would have a lot of dimes.

Game makers, like film writers, authors, and DM's or anyone else who makes stuff up. Well they spend a lot of time making stuff up. Most don't have degrees in advanced physics, engineering, social studies, etc. Some do, and they are very technical. That's kinda kool to me sometimes.

Most of the time I just want to fly down on my dragon, fireball the snot out of everything, then fly back home. Or leap from my space ship, re-entering the atmosphere, land in a big smoken' crater, get up, dust myself off, then go whoop some demon's butt. Why? Cause it's kool! And I could never do that in the real world. We spend enough time constrained by reality. Keep it out of my fun time.

Now in the case of an acid breathing shark. I would put on my +4 wet suit of Acid resistance, a Helm of Underwater Action, dive in and go kill me a shark.

Ask not what the shark breathes. Ask how to make it not breathe.

Greenish
2010-10-23, 12:41 PM
So a Shark immune to heat wouldn't be harmed and could reasonably find oxygen. If humans had gills and we unharmed by lava, we too could breath in it.
Lava is mostly oxygen (okay silicon too):
http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Controls.html/facepalm

It doesn't work quite like that.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-23, 12:44 PM
Biologists. Crying.

Greenish
2010-10-23, 12:45 PM
Biologists. Crying.Chemist. About to end his life by breathing silica.

Grommen
2010-10-23, 12:47 PM
I knew a player once who swore that his shield, which he polished to a mirror shine, should be able to reflect a Lightning Bolt spell.

A polished METAL shield. Reflecting lightning. Yeah.

Well I'm sure it reflected the "light" with no problem what so ever. And if it had a path to ground (not going though the holder of the shield), and rubber backing or something else non conductive. Maybe....Still not willing to try it. The heat discharge might still literally "cook you"

Just saw a special on lightning strikes. Apparently the old golf club acts like a lightning rod, sparing the person holding on to it from some of the lighting's power. Coarse 1% of a lightning bolts power will still wreck your day :smallbiggrin: but ya any port in the storm right?

Moriato
2010-10-23, 12:49 PM
Chemist. About to end his life by breathing silica.

Just make sure it's HOT silica, or it wont kill you.

Greenish
2010-10-23, 12:50 PM
Well I'm sure it reflected the "light" with no problem what so ever.Yeah, but it's the "-ning" part that hurts.

[Edit]:
Just make sure it's HOT silica, or it wont kill you.Breathe enough (in fine powder) and the temperature won't matter.

Moriato
2010-10-23, 01:01 PM
Yeah, but it's the "-ning" part that hurts.

[Edit]:Breathe enough (in fine powder) and the temperature won't matter.

I know, I was just going back to the breathing lava thing :smallwink:


Well I'm sure it reflected the "light" with no problem what so ever. And if it had a path to ground (not going though the holder of the shield), and rubber backing or something else non conductive. Maybe....Still not willing to try it. The heat discharge might still literally "cook you"

He didn't take any of those precautions, of course, just polished, and he expected it to bounce off like a laser... *sigh*.

I was giving some thought to the lightning + metal thing, and it occures to me that while a metal shield wouldn't be much help, wouldn't full plate actually protect you from electricity?

I mean all the pieces are touching eachother, and touching the ground, and if you're wearing it right, the metal isn't really touching you at all. Wouldn't it be kind of like wearing a big Faraday cage?

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 01:04 PM
I was giving some thought to the lightning + metal thing, and it occures to me that while a metal shield wouldn't be much help, wouldn't full plate actually protect you from electricity?

I mean all the pieces are touching eachother, and touching the ground, and if you're wearing it right, the metal isn't really touching you at all. Wouldn't it be kind of like wearing a big Faraday cage?

I'm pretty sure when you wear full plate it touch you. Why wouldn't it?

Moriato
2010-10-23, 01:06 PM
I'm pretty sure when you wear full plate it touch you. Why wouldn't it?

Not really, actually. What's touching you is mostly leather straps and padding, which is non-conductive. Seems to me that electricity would flow right around you, through the armor, and into the ground.

Greenish
2010-10-23, 01:10 PM
Not really, actually. What's touching you is mostly leather straps and padding, which is non-conductive. Seems to me that electricity would flow right around you, through the armor, and into the ground.Obviously, this requires empirical testing.

Hey, John Campbell, feel like mocking gods from the top of the highest hill during a thunderstorm? :smallcool:

Dr.Epic
2010-10-23, 01:13 PM
Honestly I don't care how realistic it is so long as I'm entertained.

Eldan
2010-10-23, 01:32 PM
Biologists. Crying.

Actually, I'm laughing now.


Yeah, but it's the "-ning" part that hurts.

[Edit]:Breathe enough (in fine powder) and the temperature won't matter.

That's why it has to be so hot it's liquid. Duh.

Maroon
2010-10-23, 02:17 PM
I already edited my post. I meant lava without the being harmed by the lava, would be more akin to water than rocks: Remember it is is liquid now.

So a Shark immune to heat wouldn't be harmed and could reasonably find oxygen. If humans had gills and we unharmed by lava, we too could breath in it.
Lava is mostly oxygen (okay silicon too):
http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Controls.html
You've just linked to a page that says all atmospheric gases except free oxygen are contained in magma. None of the gases in magma are breathable by aerobic organisms (including all sharks and all humans and most other animals).

Even if you were wholly resistant to heat, and even if it contained O2, you'd still suffocate as no set of gills known to man is tough enough to allow a fluid as viscous as lava to pass through without getting torn apart. And if these gills were tough enough to force molten rock through them oxygen couldn't pass through them to dissolve into the blood.

I hope that explains how heat is not the only impediment to successfully breathing magma.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that anything in a world should be able to be (tenuously) explained by real-world science, even if, in-universe, it actually isn't.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-23, 02:20 PM
Not really, actually. What's touching you is mostly leather straps and padding, which is non-conductive. Seems to me that electricity would flow right around you, through the armor, and into the ground.

But the padding is also likely soaked in sweat. Even if you clean the stuff right after removing it, you're still going to have salt buildups. That makes your padding conductive.
On the other hand, a suit of armor from say a 16th century jousting competition (heavier, less mobile than standard armour worn for war) should envelop enough of the body to form a faraday cage. Exactly why you don't get hurt from lightning striking your car. Of course, if it just damaged the electronics, you could still be S.O.L as you've just lost power steering and ABS in the middle of a storm.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-23, 03:24 PM
The one that annoys me is the elf wizards and their whining about not having every spell on the list. I know realistically that if you lived hundreds of years you would be better at magic then your monkey companion, but your still going to follow the rules.

Dragosai
2010-10-23, 03:26 PM
Ah, I knew I was asking for trouble when I named the thread that, but I just couldn't resist the reference to one of my favorite OOTS scenes.

For further consideration: The Acid-born Shark in any natural environment would quickly have their bloodstream swamped with urea to lethal levels in an attempt to maintain osmotic balance as the soils and other surround materials are dissolved into the aquatic medium.

But that's clearly too much thinking. That level of realism would obviously derail game flow (and this thread:smallsmile:) but still I am compelled to point it out. I'm assuming this tic applies to some of my fellow gamers as well?

Why would that happen? If we assume that such a creature as an acid shark could exsist, then why is it a big leap to assume it would have a gland/organ that balanced the urea in it's system? Hell several real world sharks have organs that are used to balance the amount of salt in there systems when they go from salt water to fresh water. I say we make acid shark and give it a frikin laser on it's head as well!

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 04:19 PM
Exactly, "Evolution is smarter than you" is proven time and again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgel's_rule

So acid or Lava sharks are possible given enough time.

Eldan
2010-10-23, 04:26 PM
Honestly, a lack of consistency is much more frustrating than a lack of realism.


Well, yes. But it makes for fun discussions.

My world runs on an assorted mix of various ancient greek philosophers, alchemy, 18th century ideas, Planescape mechanics and mumbo-jumpo-I-make-up-as-I-go-along(tm) anyway.

Greenish
2010-10-23, 04:28 PM
My world runs on an assorted mix of various ancient greek philosophers, alchemy, 18th century ideas, Planescape mechanics and mumbo-jumpo-I-make-up-as-I-go-along(tm) anyway.What, you import all those silly superstitions of the ancient greek (like how matter is supposedly made of really tiny particles, haha) into a setting? :smalltongue:

dgnslyr
2010-10-23, 05:25 PM
What, you import all those silly superstitions of the ancient greek (like how matter is supposedly made of really tiny particles, haha) into a setting? :smalltongue:

Yeah, and the idea that the earth revolves around the sun? That could only make sense if the stars were really big and really far, which is just silly. :smalltongue:

Tichrondrius
2010-10-23, 06:44 PM
About breathing Lava, that reminded me of my very very first Tabletop RPG that was D&D 3.5. Me and my buddy playing a Half-Dragon ended up fighting and I eventually knocked him out and threw him into the lava expecting that to finish him. (We were surrounded by Lava on three sides.) But he was immune to Lava completely so we just sat there waiting for him to either drown or regain consciousness. For four rounds. Then he woke up and came back to kick my ass. XD

Ormur
2010-10-23, 09:20 PM
Hehe the first thing I thought when I saw the thread was also: why not if it's acid immune, the acid is a water solution and sufficiently oxygenated?

Well, speaking of acid breathing sharks, the thing that disproportionately annoys me about D&D mechanics not fitting reality is the energy types and the biology. What sort of energy is acid and fire sonic and cold for that matter? The lego genetics are a similar beef. I can imagine a world where the laws of nature are routinely broken by bearded men in pointed hats but that they aren't followed to begin with is very hard to imagine. A world where evolution and physics make no sense even before the application of magic.

pffh
2010-10-23, 09:38 PM
Hehe the first thing I thought when I saw the thread was also: why not if it's acid immune, the acid is a water solution and sufficiently oxygenated?

Well I'm guessing they aren't thinking about an acid solution but rather glacial acid. Although depending on the acid (carboxyl acids for example) if it could process it correctly it could probably breath it.

Ormur
2010-10-23, 09:46 PM
Well I'm guessing they aren't thinking about an acid solution but rather glacial acid. Although depending on the acid (carboxyl acids for example) if it could process it correctly it could probably breath it.

Well, yes there are of course acids oxygen breathing organism couldn't breath in but then that's what bothers me, that there is just acid. The energy types make even less sense than something like the four elements (off of which fire is one so I guess it's both an energy type and an element). No one not designing a combat system for a role playing game would make just plane "acid" a fundamental building block.

Edit: ah, well it's all just an abstraction for what kind of damage has what kind of effects. I just have a very hard time relating to a world that make no use of conventional chemistry as a way of explaining such things. From reading the rules you get the impression that the energy types are some sort of fundamental forces like those of the real world or something.

pffh
2010-10-23, 09:53 PM
Well, yes there are of course acids oxygen breathing organism couldn't breath in but then that's what bothers me, that there is just acid. The energy types make even less sense than something like the four elements (off of which fire is one so I guess it's both an energy type and an element). No one not designing a combat system for a role playing game would make just plane "acid" a fundamental building block.

Eh I doubt most people actually realise that there are different acids other then the hollywood style ACID that dissolves everything and is bad (and even fewer that actually know what an acid actually is) so I wouldn't be surprised if a game designer went with the rule of cool.
Besides who would want to have to worry about the type of acid you have when all you want to do is splash it in someones face and melt it off while your mate throws balls of fire around.

Rising Phoenix
2010-10-23, 09:53 PM
Somewhere a poor abused biologist is crying that you used eurypterids to say that you're not sure that D&D Monstrous Scorpions aren't realistic. Shame on you. Please think of the biologists!

I am biologist and yes I am crying... :smallfrown:

pffh
2010-10-23, 09:57 PM
I am biologist and yes I am crying... :smallfrown:

Be careful! Tears are slightly basic and that's like totally the opposite of acid and so that must build up stuff rather then dissolve it!

But yeah I'm firmly in the camp of consistency rather then having everything make sense but when someone tries to tell me that a sword should be 10 pounds or heavier then I'm tempted to get mine and hit him with it.

Ormur
2010-10-23, 10:04 PM
Be careful! Tears are slightly basic and that's like totally the opposite of acid and so that must build up stuff rather then dissolve it!

But yeah I'm firmly in the camp of consistency rather then having everything make sense but when someone tries to tell me that a sword should be 10 pounds or heavier then I'm tempted to get mine and hit him with it.

Yes, what kind of damage would throwing a bunch of caustic soda in the face of somebody cause in D&D. We've got fire and cold, why not acid and basic damage.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-23, 10:06 PM
I am biologist and yes I am crying... :smallfrown:

:smallfrown: I feel for you. I really do. I know how you feel because I, as a man of science (if not specifically a biologist), am crying too. :smallfrown:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 10:08 PM
Yes, what kind of damage would throwing a bunch of caustic soda in the face of somebody cause in D&D. We've got fire and cold, why not acid and basic damage.

No, basic is anti-acid kinda (not really but probably for D&D) so it would cure/give temp hp vs acid.



I am biologist and yes I am crying... :smallfrown:

I'm in your biology, messing up your science. :smallbiggrin:

Wait, is it about the shark?

I'm a biologist too. Although still in college.

pffh
2010-10-23, 10:10 PM
Yes, what kind of damage would throwing a bunch of caustic soda in the face of somebody cause in D&D. We've got fire and cold, why not acid and basic damage.

It would mechanically be the same thing so I see no reason for not including it in the game (and speaking as someone that has actually gotten a strong base in my eye. It hurts like HELL and it stings for a very long time even after it gets treated).

Shatteredtower
2010-10-23, 10:27 PM
Given a choice between magma breathing Batman wizard sharks in space and having player characters try to kill enemies by grinding glass into their food, I'll stick with Batman.

Fiery Diamond
2010-10-23, 10:56 PM
Given a choice between magma breathing Batman wizard sharks in space and having player characters try to kill enemies by grinding glass into their food, I'll stick with Batman.

Really? I think PCs trying to kill people with glass in their food sounds pretty much more awesome than the other, myself.

Easier to adjudicate, too.

Arbane
2010-10-24, 01:00 AM
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Realism1.jpg?t=1287864617


Oh, crud. That means all the OTHER ninjas will get STRONGER!

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-24, 02:29 AM
I mean all the pieces are touching eachother, and touching the ground, and if you're wearing it right, the metal isn't really touching you at all. Wouldn't it be kind of like wearing a big Faraday cage?

Faraday cage, the same principles as a radio tower (redirecting electricity) also the same effect as a microwave over...

As far as the 1 point of *** resistance making you immune to ongoing damage of the associated type, not only do I not buy it in realistic, or even fantasy settings, I don't buy it when the rules imply that it would (such as 10 points of acid resist would resist the first 10 points of 1d6 per turn, but it's an ongoing effect, so I'd rule it so that it's one big attack, and thusly...)

MY biggest problem is when someone brings bases into the "it should have its own energy type argument" like acid. Personally, I say bases and acids work the same in fantasy settings, and that they're the same energy type, but w/e.

Rising Phoenix
2010-10-24, 05:04 AM
Okay... so acid breathing sharks may not be THAT far fetched...

http://www.newcritters.com/2006/04/03/worlds-smallest-fish-paedocypris-progenetica/

Caustic Soda
2010-10-24, 06:04 AM
Yes, what kind of damage would throwing a bunch of caustic soda in the face of somebody cause in D&D. We've got fire and cold, why not acid and basic damage.

I don't know, what kind of damage would throwing caustic soda in someone's face do :smallamused:?

On-topic, weaponry is generally the stuff that breaks my suspension of is weaponry and armor. Not just the idea that swords are flat, 20-lb. sledgehammers, but also the kind of porcupine-style armor that, say, Sarevok of BG1 uses. Now my practical experience with that kind of equipment is non-existent, but it simply doesn't seem very practical to me.

The Big Dice
2010-10-24, 07:02 AM
I don't know, what kind of damage would throwing caustic soda in someone's face do :smallamused:?

On-topic, weaponry is generally the stuff that breaks my suspension of is weaponry and armor. Not just the idea that swords are flat, 20-lb. sledgehammers, but also the kind of porcupine-style armor that, say, Sarevok of BG1 uses. Now my practical experience with that kind of equipment is non-existent, but it simply doesn't seem very practical to me.

D&D has nothing to do with practicality or realism. Face it, six limbed reptiles that weigh several tons that can fly and breathe verious types of chemicals or even energy. There are floating balls with laser death rayes for eyes. Ten of them, not including the big eye. And all kinds of other stuff that defies biology in more ways thn you can shake a stick at.

If you can make the suspension of disbelief needed to accept things like dragons and beholders, you can accept anything. As long as it:
1: Obeys the Rule of Cool, and
2: Follows the game mechanics as you know them.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-24, 08:13 AM
The one that annoys me is the elf wizards and their whining about not having every spell on the list. I know realistically that if you lived hundreds of years you would be better at magic then your monkey companion, but your still going to follow the rules.

You know, they actually handle this issue in Eberron by simply saying that members of the elf race average higher level than other common humanoid races. The Valenar average a whopping level 5 or so (quite high for humanoids in the setting. They can be thought of as the world's Spartans. As Keith Baker put it, "sword for sword, the Valenar have no equals in Khorvaire").

It just means that what is impressive for elves is different from what's impressive for humans, without actually needing to change the rules.

Grommen
2010-10-24, 10:21 AM
I know, I was just going back to the breathing lava thing :smallwink:



He didn't take any of those precautions, of course, just polished, and he expected it to bounce off like a laser... *sigh*.

I was giving some thought to the lightning + metal thing, and it occures to me that while a metal shield wouldn't be much help, wouldn't full plate actually protect you from electricity?

I mean all the pieces are touching eachother, and touching the ground, and if you're wearing it right, the metal isn't really touching you at all. Wouldn't it be kind of like wearing a big Faraday cage?

I was thinkin that too. I think it would be close to those "Hot suits" that the high power line workers wear. However I'm not willing to find out. After a decade of working on electronics and getting zapped by low voltage (well kinda low) on nearly a daily basis. I can say that you simply can't know what electricity is going to do. O ya and it hurts.....:smallsigh:

Eldan
2010-10-24, 10:46 AM
What, you import all those silly superstitions of the ancient greek (like how matter is supposedly made of really tiny particles, haha) into a setting? :smalltongue:

No. Depending on who you ask, it's made of the four elements, or animating spirit and inert matter, or Pneuma, or flowing water in different states, or male and female principles...
You know, there's a lot of greek philosophers out there with very interesting theories.

Or the various inner and outer spheres. Or, taking later ideas: spontaneous creation of life. Vesiculi. Fully formed humanoids stored in a woman's belly, just waiting to grow. And so on.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-24, 11:02 AM
Did you recently read the book (DMG)?
An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma.

I'm pretty sure it serves as resistance to lava if you have fire resistance. You'd need immunity to fire to not be incinerated in ~2-3 rounds. And even then, I think immunity to fire should only grant resistance to lava; protection from 450 degrees of heat is not going to cut it for over 2000 degrees of molten agony. For invulnerability, I think you should need damage reduction and fire immunity, not a level-3 protective spell that happens to ward off definite destruction.:smallannoyed:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-24, 11:11 AM
I'm pretty sure it serves as resistance to lava if you have fire resistance. You'd need immunity to fire to not be incinerated in ~2-3 rounds. And even then, I think immunity to fire should only grant resistance to lava; protection from 450 degrees of heat is not going to cut it for over 2000 degrees of molten agony. For invulnerability, I think you should need damage reduction and fire immunity, not a level-3 protective spell that happens to ward off definite destruction.:smallannoyed:

Human be wack. Read the book.
SRD will show you if you don't like to read the DMG (or don't have it):
Lava Effects
Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round.

Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round).

An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava.

BunnyMaster42
2010-10-24, 11:16 AM
I'm pretty sure it serves as resistance to lava if you have fire resistance. You'd need immunity to fire to not be incinerated in ~2-3 rounds. And even then, I think immunity to fire should only grant resistance to lava; protection from 450 degrees of heat is not going to cut it for over 2000 degrees of molten agony. For invulnerability, I think you should need damage reduction and fire immunity, not a level-3 protective spell that happens to ward off definite destruction.:smallannoyed:

While I don't really want to get into a debate about how absolute fire immunity is, I do agree that resistance to fire providing lava immunity is absurd. But by RAW you can be immune to taking a dip in molten rock but still take damage from accidently sticking their sleeve in the campfire.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-24, 11:19 AM
Ah, I knew I was asking for trouble when I named the thread that, but I just couldn't resist the reference to one of my favorite OOTS scenes.

For further consideration: The Acid-born Shark in any natural environment would quickly have their bloodstream swamped with urea to lethal levels in an attempt to maintain osmotic balance as the soils and other surround materials are dissolved into the aquatic medium.

But that's clearly too much thinking. That level of realism would obviously derail game flow (and this thread:smallsmile:) but still I am compelled to point it out. I'm assuming this tic applies to some of my fellow gamers as well?
I understood that this meant that, in an environment like a lake of water, an acid-adapted shark wouldn't be able to cope with the water and die; really, have you ever, ever, ever seen a lake of acid? with an ecosystem in it and everything?

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-24, 11:33 AM
While I don't really want to get into a debate about how absolute fire immunity is, I do agree that resistance to fire providing lava immunity is absurd. But by RAW you can be immune to taking a dip in molten rock but still take damage from accidently sticking their sleeve in the campfire.

It's not that I don't want immunity to lava, it's just that I don't want the 3rd-level spellcaster whom, after being hit by a beer bottle in a bar fight, almost bleeds to death, to have it. If the dragon can wallow in the lava pit protecting the treasure, you'd better have a darn good reason for why it dies when I poke it with my metal stick thingy, other than 'Oh, look! thousands of GP worth of treasure!.' Realism is not the problem, when you have quasi-immortal elves and resurrection spells. It's the inconsistency.

Morithias
2010-10-24, 11:36 AM
What if....the shark breathed a different element instead of oxygen? You know an element that is inside said acid.

I mean plants breathe carbon-dioxide, which is not an element yes, but I think one could argue a create like an acid-shark could breathe chlorine or something of that nature.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-24, 11:48 AM
What if....the shark breathed a different element instead of oxygen? You know an element that is inside said acid.

I mean plants breathe carbon-dioxide, which is not an element yes, but I think one could argue a create like an acid-shark could breathe chlorine or something of that nature.

Depends on the acid:
H30 is an acid. So it doesn't need to breath differently.
But Sulfuric acid (H204S) is sulfur based.

Eldan
2010-10-24, 11:52 AM
Yes, what kind of damage would throwing a bunch of caustic soda in the face of somebody cause in D&D. We've got fire and cold, why not acid and basic damage.

Actually, as per the rules, it's also acid damage. You may cry now.


I understood that this meant that, in an environment like a lake of water, an acid-adapted shark wouldn't be able to cope with the water and die; really, have you ever, ever, ever seen a lake of acid? with an ecosystem in it and everything?

There are actually acidic lakes, yes. Usually found around volcanoes.


What if....the shark breathed a different element instead of oxygen? You know an element that is inside said acid.

I mean plants breathe carbon-dioxide, which is not an element yes, but I think one could argue a create like an acid-shark could breathe chlorine or something of that nature.

Plants actually breathe oxygen. They just need carbon dioxide as well, for photosynthesis. There are a few other compounds that bacteria and archaea can breathe, though.

BunnyMaster42
2010-10-24, 12:10 PM
It's not that I don't want immunity to lava, it's just that I don't want the 3rd-level spellcaster whom, after being hit by a beer bottle in a bar fight, almost bleeds to death, to have it. If the dragon can wallow in the lava pit protecting the treasure, you'd better have a darn good reason for why it dies when I poke it with my metal stick thingy, other than 'Oh, look! thousands of GP worth of treasure!.' Realism is not the problem, when you have quasi-immortal elves and resurrection spells. It's the inconsistency.

I agree about not having resistance to fire provide immunity to lava, it's just plain silly on multiple levels. As for the whole dragon bit, I would have no problems with a red dragon (or anything else with fire immunity) sulking around in a pit of lava mainly because in D&D lava and magma are essentially just viscous pools of fire. If fire immunity provides absolute protection from heat, then I see no reason why a red dragon would be able to sit all day in a pit of lava with no ill effects, only to be slain by someone with a pointed stick. Sure, it would be difficult to kill said dragon with a pointed stick, but stabbing a dragon and trying to sautee it are two different things entirely.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-24, 12:34 PM
Really? I think PCs trying to kill people with glass in their food sounds pretty much more awesome than the other, myself.

Do it to the player characters once, and you'll see why it's a bad idea. Their food wasn't poisoned, and purifying it has the same benefit as purifying a rock before you try to eat that. Cure spells only prolong the agony, and this for a trick any CR 1/3 goblin could perform.

Don't get me started on mercury poisoning, or the time some 2nd Edition writer decided that some section of one of the quasi-elemental planes should cause untreatable radiation poisoning. I prefer surprises the party can hope to survive even if they overlooked the initial danger, where clever thinking only has a chance to make things much easier, rather than essential to survival.

Caustic Soda
2010-10-24, 12:38 PM
If you can make the suspension of disbelief needed to accept things like dragons and beholders, you can accept anything. As long as it:
1: Obeys the Rule of Cool, and
2: Follows the game mechanics as you know them.

But that's the point, I can't accept everything in D&D or other fiction. I know that balking at weapons but not dragons is arbitrary, but that doesn't help my suspension of disbelief any. Besides, I find simple, practical weapons and armor to be cool. Stuff like Dire Flails go past awesome into brain-meltingly stupid. That said, exploring the ramifications of different physics (such as using the 4 elements + life/death) to be rather interesting when it comes to world-building. Probably not as interesting in-game, though.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-24, 12:43 PM
There are actually acidic lakes, yes. Usually found around volcanoes.
.

I meant a lake full of not just acidic water but something rather low on the pH scale, like stomach acids, strong enough to damage human skin upon contact. That's what I think of as true 'acid.'

Although that would be an awesome place for part of a D&D campaign- a volcano with lava-breathing sharks, and pools of acid around it, with acid breathing sharks. And air-breathing sharks with wings! My army of sharks will enslave the world! All kneel before me! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Fiery Diamond
2010-10-24, 12:52 PM
Do it to the player characters once, and you'll see why it's a bad idea. Their food wasn't poisoned, and purifying it has the same benefit as purifying a rock before you try to eat that. Cure spells only prolong the agony, and this for a trick any CR 1/3 goblin could perform.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Depends on how you answer the following:

If I purify food that has been contaminated by flecks of dirt harboring Bad Things TM, does the dirt disappear or just the Bad Things TM?

I'd say the dirt disappears, and likewise, so would the ground glass. I would, however, say that detect poison wouldn't find it.

Also, link. (http://www.corecharity.org.uk/The-Hazards-of-Swallowing-Glass.html)

Starbuck_II
2010-10-24, 01:04 PM
I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Depends on how you answer the following:

If I purify food that has been contaminated by flecks of dirt harboring Bad Things TM, does the dirt disappear or just the Bad Things TM?

I'd say the dirt disappears, and likewise, so would the ground glass. I would, however, say that detect poison wouldn't find it.

Also, link. (http://www.corecharity.org.uk/The-Hazards-of-Swallowing-Glass.html)

So according to the article, glass has a chance to not hurt:
Sharp objects such as glass fragments might be expected to cause damage but rarely do so because of the gentle way in which the bowel handles them. Small splinters or spikes could cause perforation but this is very unusual. A small perforation rarely leads to peritonitis and usually heals quickly with any leakage contained. Small fragments may also cause a little bleeding into the bowel which can be detected on tests in the stools but serious blood loss is very rare. Ground glass, despite its reputation in thrillers, has no serious effect on the bowel.


Wow.

Moriato
2010-10-24, 01:14 PM
Ground glass, despite its reputation in thrillers, has no serious effect on the bowel.


This. Ground glass just isn't anywhere near as harmful as it sounds. Any peices large enough to actually cause some damage would be easily noticed in your food, and if it's ground so fine that you wont notice, it's basically sand, not particularly harmful at all.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-24, 01:31 PM
Thank you for proving my point. None of that was worth the effort.

Moriato
2010-10-24, 01:35 PM
Thank you for proving my point. None of that was worth the effort.

Wow. Touchy, much? I think you're seeing an argument where there is none.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-24, 01:38 PM
Wow. Touchy, much? I think you're seeing an argument where there is none.

What? There is no argument. The point is demonstrated that some stunts aren't worth the hassle.

Eldan
2010-10-24, 01:44 PM
I meant a lake full of not just acidic water but something rather low on the pH scale, like stomach acids, strong enough to damage human skin upon contact. That's what I think of as true 'acid.'


I was sure that I've read of lakes with very low pH values somewhere but can't find anything on them on the short term.

However, this lake here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonar_crater_lake) on Wiki has a pH of 11.

edit: in Yellowstone:
The Basin consists of three main areas: Porcelain Basin, Back Basin, and One Hundred Springs Plain. Unlike most of other geyser basins in the park the waters from Norris are acidic[9] rather than alkaline (for example, Echinus Geyser has a pH of ~3.5). The difference in pH allows for a different class of bacterial thermophiles to live at Norris, creating different color patterns in and around the Norris Basin waters.

Still not that bad, but I know that acidophile bacteria can go below pH 2.

Moriato
2010-10-24, 01:44 PM
What? There is no argument. The point is demonstrated that some stunts aren't worth the hassle.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood your post. My apologies.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-24, 01:49 PM
Oh, I see. I misunderstood your post. My apologies.


Thank you. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Fiery Diamond
2010-10-24, 01:49 PM
What? There is no argument. The point is demonstrated that some stunts aren't worth the hassle.

What hassle?

The Glyphstone
2010-10-24, 02:04 PM
What hassle?

The hassle of convincing your ST that you deserve +3 dice for it?:smallwink:

The Big Dice
2010-10-24, 03:59 PM
But that's the point, I can't accept everything in D&D or other fiction. I know that balking at weapons but not dragons is arbitrary, but that doesn't help my suspension of disbelief any. Besides, I find simple, practical weapons and armor to be cool. Stuff like Dire Flails go past awesome into brain-meltingly stupid. That said, exploring the ramifications of different physics (such as using the 4 elements + life/death) to be rather interesting when it comes to world-building. Probably not as interesting in-game, though.

That's why I ignore things like spiked chains, armour spikes, dire flainls and two bladed swords. They're stupid rather than cool to my sensibilities. Stuff like mercurial greatswords are even worse, but i don't have to include everything in the books in my games. It is, after all, designed to be modular.

The shape of axe heads is all wrong (the pictures are fine for chopping trees down, but not so good for weapons of war) and the designs of armour shown in the books are so impractical as to be both laughable and fatal for the person hoping to be protected by them.

But there's no rule, law or police force to make sure you include every stupid element in your games.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-24, 04:06 PM
That's why I ignore things like spiked chains, armour spikes, dire flainls and two bladed swords. They're stupid rather than cool to my sensibilities. Stuff like mercurial greatswords are even worse, but i don't have to include everything in the books in my games. It is, after all, designed to be modular.

The shape of axe heads is all wrong (the pictures are fine for chopping trees down, but not so good for weapons of war) and the designs of armour shown in the books are so impractical as to be both laughable and fatal for the person hoping to be protected by them.

But there's no rule, law or police force to make sure you include every stupid element in your games.

Can't the players just call it something else? Are do you deprive them because yoiu have problems with the stuff?

The Big Dice
2010-10-24, 04:24 PM
Can't the players just call it something else? Are do you deprive them because yoiu have problems with the stuff?

Can't the players go along with the GM and the choices that the GM makes for the game in general? Why should the GM be the one to sacrifice taste and knowledge in favour of players wanting something that isn't that good, stretches the disbelief suspenders a bit too far and doesn't really add anything to the game?

The Rule of Cool breaks down at a certain point. Different people might find that it snaps in different places, but the GM has the right to say no and the player has the choice of accept it or leave.

Fiery Diamond
2010-10-24, 08:44 PM
Can't the players go along with the GM and the choices that the GM makes for the game in general? Why should the GM be the one to sacrifice taste and knowledge in favour of players wanting something that isn't that good, stretches the disbelief suspenders a bit too far and doesn't really add anything to the game?

The Rule of Cool breaks down at a certain point. Different people might find that it snaps in different places, but the GM has the right to say no and the player has the choice of accept it or leave.

As much as I don't really like this particular attitude toward DMing, ultimately, this is true. The DM is the one responsible for running the game, so if he/she doesn't like something, things likely aren't going to go that well if that thing is included.

The Big Dice
2010-10-25, 08:57 AM
As much as I don't really like this particular attitude toward DMing, ultimately, this is true. The DM is the one responsible for running the game, so if he/she doesn't like something, things likely aren't going to go that well if that thing is included.

It really isn't about throwing tantrums and micromanaging every aspect of people's characters. Rather, it's about, as the OP feels as well, things that stretch the suspension of disbelief too far.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-25, 05:38 PM
So according to the article, glass has a chance to not hurt:
Sharp objects such as glass fragments might be expected to cause damage but rarely do so because of the gentle way in which the bowel handles them. Small splinters or spikes could cause perforation but this is very unusual. A small perforation rarely leads to peritonitis and usually heals quickly with any leakage contained. Small fragments may also cause a little bleeding into the bowel which can be detected on tests in the stools but serious blood loss is very rare. Ground glass, despite its reputation in thrillers, has no serious effect on the bowel.


Wow.

I can attest to this, having apparently swallowed many things as a young kid, such as a couple of Legos, a small magnetic ball, and, allegedly, a tiny fragmented piece of hard plastic. Also, more recently, I ingested a sliver of enamel or something from the meat of a fish (Supposedly, another fish bit it, lost a chunk of its tooth from the bite, the one fish healed, and now I will never eat at McDonald's again, though they had no way of stopping it and I can't legally sue them), medically proven, and I lived just fine. One thing, though, is that it helps if you eat every so often, or else your body starts trying to digest the anomaly and it can damage itself in the process, resulting in ulcers. But yeah. You don't get internally lacerated by ingesting ground-up glass, although it'll probably be a little unpleasant.

John Campbell
2010-10-25, 06:56 PM
I'm curious, SCA, Adrian, something else? Were you able to make some/most, or did you have to buy it?
SCA. I actually made all of my kit except for helm, gloves, and boots. The plate was a little wonky... had some issues like the knee articulation tending to lock up at full flex and needing to be bashed to free the lames up. Even still, I could do things in it that the D&D rules make impractically difficult, or even outright forbid (like Tumbling).

I don't actually fight in the plate anymore... I'm two inches taller and about fifty pounds heavier (fortunately, most of that is muscle mass) than I was when I made it, and steel plate doesn't stretch well. And, well, it was wonky to begin with. These days, I fight in a more persona-appropriate (and heavier!) mail hauberk - also of my crafting. I'm still using the vambraces from the plate, and "temporary" plastic knees, until I work out the necessary temperatures and durations to get the right balance of hardness and resilience for hardened leather greaves and vambraces. My first round of experiments only had surface hardening, and got soft and crackly with use, and the last round were hard all the way through, but shattered under sword blows.


Obviously, this requires empirical testing.

Hey, John Campbell, feel like mocking gods from the top of the highest hill during a thunderstorm? :smallcool:
Not really. I don't think the armor would make a good Faraday cage in the first place - too many gaps - and even if it did, the power dissipated in a lightning strike is sufficient that the heat bloom alone is dangerous.


An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava.

I prefer to think that that's an editorial error, and it's supposed to read, "An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity or resistance to lava or magma." I'm very probably wrong, but let me live in my fantasy world here.

What bothers me most about lava is that everyone forgets how heavy the stuff is. It may be liquid, but it's still rock. You're not going to sink in it, unless maybe you're a warforged.

Of course, swimming has nothing to do with density anyway. Greater stone golems are awesome swimmers, when logically you'd think they'd sink like... well, a stone.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-25, 08:22 PM
SCA. I actually made all of my kit except for helm, gloves, and boots.

So jealous, I lack tools and time to make most of my own equipment. What I do have, is only splinted leather with the purpose of getting me on the field. Where'd you get your helm? I've got a Hjalmer, but want to upgrade.


Back to the original subject of the thread, unusual things in D&D. And not whether you can breathe lava.


Greater stone golems are awesome swimmers.
High strength score, no armor check penalty... Funny and scarily true.

big teej
2010-10-25, 09:23 PM
High strength score, no armor check penalty... Funny and scarily true.

-the DM is smiling-
I forsee an idea....


DN: The Stone Golem begins to chase you
party: RUN!
brainiac:hey guys! into the water! the golem can't catch us from the bottom of the lake!
party: great idea! -into the water-
DM: -evil grin- the golem steps into the water up to its waist.
http://crackberry.com/transformers-sound-effect
The Golem turns into a boat and chases you
party: :smalleek:


I wish to use this....

herrhauptmann
2010-10-25, 10:10 PM
I have no objection, Campbell though isthe one who pointed out that golems can swim.

Personally, I'd just give it a ring of swim +20, or DM fiat an item that grants a swim speed.
While transforming into a boat might scare them, it might also ruin their suspension of disbelief. If it instead wades into the water and starts doing the breaststroke, they might wet themselves in terror. Especially if they're having a hard time getting the boat to go (rowing, sculling, sailing, whatever).

If they're on a river, they might feel safe once the current starts taking them downstream faster than the golem can swim. It's a cliche at that point, but you're supposed to put a waterfall (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0035.html) in front of them

Caustic Soda
2010-10-26, 02:00 AM
That's why I ignore things like spiked chains, armour spikes, dire flainls and two bladed swords. They're stupid rather than cool to my sensibilities. Stuff like mercurial greatswords are even worse, but i don't have to include everything in the books in my games. It is, after all, designed to be modular.

-snip-

But there's no rule, law or police force to make sure you include every stupid element in your games.

This is all true. And I've been fortunate enough that in my D&D games so far these items have not been used. Or even mentioned, except for snarking. Still, the very idea of it makes me cringe inside, and sicne I don't Gm, there is a (remote, hopefully) risk that I will someday be in a game where they're used unironically.

On a related note, I find it interesting yet absurd that Diablo II, of all things, actually has semi-realistic war-hammers and war scythes. While at the same time having scepters be one of the most damaging types of item in the game *facepalm*




What bothers me most about lava is that everyone forgets how heavy the stuff is. It may be liquid, but it's still rock. You're not going to sink in it, unless maybe you're a warforged.


It kinda surprises me that 3.x manages to have both the idea that you can sink in lave, and have rules for how to handle convection. In my experience, games tend to portray lava as essentially deadly red water. If you fall in it (or even touch it) you die, but you can stand half a meter away and feel nothing except nervousness.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-26, 07:27 PM
If you fall into lava in real life, you can't exactly write down what happens to you, so it's hard to be sure of how it works. However, you wouldn't sink in, due to the density, but rather fall over face-first onto it and burn painfully, writhing in agony. To be even within a couple of feet of it would be unbearable, except with the strongest of wills. The experience would be terrifying to even witness, knowing full well that there is nothing you can do to stop the horror as the victim slowly sinks into the tortuous substance.
Even with magic, it would be almost impossible to survive a dip into it.
...Yeah. And D&D games treat it like glowing red instantaneously lethal water.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-26, 08:07 PM
There's a very nice 3rd-party supplement for this, called Lava Rules: Fireand Brimstone!
http://www.lavarules.com/
You can download the full ruleset (it's a short PDF) for free here (http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1938)


EDIT: Apparently you have to sign up to the site, even for free product. Here's a spoiler of the content:

You die. No save.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-27, 02:07 PM
Awesome. Now that's roleplaying!
It appears as though Barbarians can attack themselves and trigger their rage or whatever, and there aren't any rules against it! ...I think.

Thomas0Comer
2011-03-01, 04:17 PM
Talking is a free action, right? And there are sonic attacks and spells, right? So... Just talkreallyfastandreallyloudlyusingoneofthosespells orattacksandslaughtereverythinginyourpath! But do it quickly before your DM realizes what you're doing. And if you abuse it, you WILL lose that ability.

Tyndmyr
2011-03-01, 04:44 PM
*facepalm*
Lemme guess, the people who argued this are the type with arms like pipecleaners, a chest like a washboard, and a belly like a sack of dough. Probably massive acne and neckbeards too, right?
Had they ever gone and I dunno, tried to go camping/hiking with just 60-70 pounds? Even if half the weight is distributed throughout your body instead of just hanging off shoulderstraps, 200# is A LOT of gear.

It is, yes. That said, full plate shouldn't be 200 lbs. Not even if it's steel instead of mithral or whatever. More like 50 lbs. Assuming it's fitted to you, as the phb states, running in it would be quite possible, albeit tiring.

People have demonstrated that swimming is impossible in full plate, so I wouldn't sweat running. Hell, I've demoed swimming in chain. Definitely doable, and I'm not on the extreme top end of human fitness or anything.

But more importantly, the character with a ludicrous strength score definitely can. Because they're at the peak of non-magical human performance or beyond. I tend not to worry overly much about the reality of carrying capacity for the flying orc with a flaming sword.

hamishspence
2011-03-01, 04:48 PM
People have demonstrated that swimming is impossible in full plate, so I wouldn't sweat running. Hell, I've demoed swimming in chain.

Should that be "possible" rather than "impossible"?

The Glyphstone
2011-03-01, 05:01 PM
Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy.