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Forever Curious
2010-10-22, 12:52 PM
Hello playground! It seems I've been blessed with meeting many people who upon hearing about the game of Dungeons and Dragons have shown great interest in playing. Because of this, I decided recently to start a "newbie" campaign to introduce them to the game.

The party began at level 1, featuring an Eladrin Swordmage, a Longtooth Shifter Monk, two Elf Rangers (one two-weapon and one ranged), a Kalashtar Cleric, and a Shardmind Psion (played by my more experienced friend). I began by opening with the "Kobold Hall" adventure as seen in the DMG. Naturally I suspected them to play a rather "kick in the door" style game with a high casualty rate.

Of course, they've not only demonstrated a shrewed sense of tactics but have managed to breeze through the dungeon with only one player hitting zero HP once (the swordmage).

So here we are now, a group of inexperienced players who practically ooze enthusiasm and an inexperienced DM attempting to give them an awesome game. I've started this thread as a way to get suggestions and feedback from the playground while keeping me focused on the game itself. Any advice from experienced DMs for creating, running, and maintaining an engaging and epic game is more than welcome.

Stay tuned for further excitement.

The Party

Cryysl (Shardmind Psion): Cryysl was created in the Astral Sea, like all shardminds. He came to the Material Plane to increase his knowledge of its workings hoping to use this knowledge to combat the Far Realms' influence. Cryysl has shown himself to be aloof toward his party while still granting aid, with a mind centered on learning how things on the Material Plane work. Player has had a good deal of experience and is the most consistent roleplayer of the group, as well asthe main tactician.

Birel and Andarta (Elf Ranged Ranger and Two-blader Ranger, respectively): These two sisters were raised by an enigmatic clan as "living weapons". However, the two have defected from their masters and are now on the run, seeking a more normal life and putting their intense combat training to good use. Both players are rather quiet, which is fitting for their characters but tend to make them trail behind during planning and roleplaying. Birel has probably dealt the most damage since the adventure's start.

Florianne (Eladrin Swordmage): All that's known of this strange eladrin is that she was "hit a lot on the head". Whether she left her community or was exiled for her eccentricity is unknown. Player roleplays her character well, but has a habit of overdoing her annoying tendencies. Has hit zero once, but is playing her role very effectively.

Skein (Longtooth Shifter Monk): Skien (born Cyl) was raised by his parents in a human settlement after they were exiled from their shifter tribe. This town was founded by the Order of the Thread, a brotherhood of monks who protect the town to this day. When Cyl was a child, the town was attacked by roving bandits, and the monks were swift to deliver justice. Inspired by the monks' powers, the shifter asked to join them and they agreed, giving him the name Skein. Skien is something of a brawler despite his monastic training, and is the most mobile character of the party. Player is the most enthusiastic of the group and an avid gamer, as well as being a decent strategist as well.

Errika (Kalashtar Cleric): Player is familiar to D&D but not 4e mechanics, working on backstory. So far Errika doesn't have much of a personality other than her dual nature: calm and level-headed with flairs of lusty aggression. Player has played an effective leader thus far, but had a habit of losing focus mainly due to sleep deprivation brought on by personal issues.

Updates (with each session)
10/28/10: The party has defeated their first dungeon and reached level two. They also managed to tame a spiretop drake to fight for them. Currently on their way to investigate a mysterious door in the local forest.

10/29/10: The party has entered a strange grove on the other side of the door full of monsters. Their pet has fallen in battle, and the party is taking no prisoners against the fey creatures they've encountered.

Rauthiss
2010-10-22, 12:53 PM
I'm playing the Psion of the party, and doing my best to make sure the rest of the party doesn't bite the dust.

Sipex
2010-10-22, 04:00 PM
Good luck. I've been DMing 4e for two years so I'll give input where I can.

Although not too much input, it seems your players read this thread.

I would suggest maybe picking up some pre-planned adventures from the store and buffing them up a bit to meet the XP cap for the group (being 6 characters instead of 5).

Also, if battles are dragging without seeming challenging (as is common for MM1 monsters) try decreasing monster HP by 33% and increasing monster damage by the same amount.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-22, 04:10 PM
Other unasked-for advice :smalltongue:
(1) Soldiers are tougher than their XP suggests; Brutes, on the other hand, are weaker.

(2) Minions are actually closer to 1/6th XP value rather than 1/4th. As the party grows more experienced, they can be worth as little as 1/8th.

(3) Avoid Monsters with Healing, DR, or THP - these are boring. Substitute for creatures with debuffs (e.g. Daze, Knockdown) or ones that do more damage.

(4) Make sure you have ranged attackers. Pure melee combat can get boring, fast.

(5) Solos aren't. Never deploy one alone - the PCs will murder it.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-22, 07:03 PM
Any advice from experienced DMs for creating, running, and maintaining an engaging and epic game is more than welcome.

Sure!

(1) for a party of X members of level Y, an encounter of X monsters of level Y is intended to be very easy. That is normal. It's also good if the players are still getting used to the system, but to challenge semi-experienced players, expect to use higher-level monsters a lot.
(2) almost without exception, solos are very easy to take down. The solution is easy: throw in some other monsters. The term "solo" should not imply that the monster must always be alone. The main exception to this is dragons.
(3) minions die easily; this is pretty much the point. That shouldn't be a problem, you can always add more. Note that 4 minions are much easier than one regular monster of the same level, despite (officially) being the same XP value. This basically means the XP value for minions is too high.
(4) if a defender "marks" your monster, that means it'll face a penalty for attacking somebody else. This does not mean that the monster must attack the defender. Frequently it is worth it to ignore the defender anyway, and go for the squishies.
(5) if players come up with clever ideas or good roleplaying for skills, don't be afraid to give them a +5 bonus to the roll. You'll have plenty of skill rolls anyway. Consider that a +1 to a single skill roll really won't make a difference 95% of the time. Giving a +5 to attack rolls isn't recommended though.
(6) there is a lot of errata to the PHB and DMG as originally printed. Most of it isn't really a big deal, but you should really pick up the new rules for stealth and for skill challenges, because the rules as printed don't really work.
(7) most players seem to either totally love or passionately hate skill challenges. If your group (or you) is the latter, don't be afraid to ignore them entirely and use regular skill checks. If you want details as to why, just google it - what is or isn't wrong with SCs is one of the most common heavy debates (and/or flame wars) of 4E.
(8) and finally, Kurald's golden rule for 4E: doing 20 damage now is better than thinking for a minute and then doing 23 damage. Keep gameplay reasonably fast. This goes both for you and for the players: if they're thinking too much, remind them that this is really not a tactical war game, and that not every move needs be the most optimized one.

Forever Curious
2010-10-28, 01:08 PM
(warning: long post)

And so, after slaying the hordes of Kobold Hall and taming the chief's pet spiretop drake to accompany them, the party discovers the secret door leading to the kobolds' true leader: a young white dragon.

Or, as we refer to him now, Derpy the Dragon. Why? Because he only managed to hit the party about 7 times, even when using two attacks in a turn (yay consistently rolling less than a 10) :smallsigh: The party also seemed to suffer from the curse of the die: Skein the monk rolled a nat 1 three times in a row, dealing himself more damage than the dragon dealt him. At length the dragon was slain with Andarta landing the finishing blow, and there was much rejoicing.

After leveling up and leaving Kobold Hall, the party decided to return to the town of Felcrest to claim their reward. They found the man who gave them the quest, the Lord Warden, in the Nentir Inn. Now, the original deal is that the party would be paid 10 gp per kobold slain and 100 gp for evidence that they had been dealt with for good. The party, cunning as they were, collected the eyes of each kobold, then bluffed that they only took one eye from each kobold. Due to his trusting nature (and possible drunkenness) the Lord Warden swallows this lie, paying the party 480 gp. The warden also invites the party to stick around to meet Roren, a famous traveling half-elf bard who is to perform at the inn. They agree, and Errika proceeds to seduce the men at the bar to pass the time.

After a bit of time, the patrons begin to get antsy as the bard has yet to arrive. Cryyl (now going by Cryysl) talks with the warden about typical half-elf behavior, when suddenly through the doors stumbled a haggard half-elf with white hair, laughing madly as he saunters to the stage, exclaiming a broken story about a "magic door in the woods" before collapsing. The warden rushes to fetch the physician, and the other patrons look uneasy, especially a gnome seated toward the back of the bar. Picking up on the gnome, Cryysl walks over to interrogate him. After a bit of bluffing back and forth, the gnome reveals he knows the location of the door and gives a map to the party, stating that "the Denizens will be pleased". With this cryptic clue in hand, the party decide to stock up on supplies, leaving the cleric to ask around for more information about the door.

The party's first stop is the Halfmoon Trading Post, a store for more mundane equipment. While looking at the armor, Cryysl notices an enchanted suit of leather and attempts to barter via bluff. Selarund Halfmoon, the halfling owner, is much shrewder than he looks and turns the shardmind out for attempting to rob him (it doesn't help Selarund has a certain racism against creatures not native to the Material Plane). Skein inquires directly about a new club to replace his mundane one. Selarund informs him he does have an enchanted club that he discovered recently (a +1 Frost Club), and offers to put it on "layaway" for the monk, respecting the fact the monk carries little money due to his vows. After much party discussion, the party determines that it isn't worth it and decides to shop elsewhere.

Their next stop is Naerumar's Imports, a store of finer equipment owned by a very debonair tiefling named Orest. Cryysl decides that the cleric deserves a more powerful holy symbol, and inquires about one as well as a weapon for the monk. Orest brings out a +1 Holy Symbol and +1 Resounding Club (I know that technically isn't allowed RAW for the Resounding enchantment, but it's fitting) and offers them for several hundred gp cheaper than market value, much to the party's joy. Florainne asks Orest about selling the gear they acquired from the kobolds. He dismisses the mundane gear as simple trash, but is very interested in the late kobold chief's bone mask, claiming it's a "collector's piece" and offering 50 gp for it.

After the transactions, the party returns to the inn where Errika, by this point mostly sober, reveals what she has learned: several travelers have seen the mysterious door on the forest by accident and have noticed it's clearly fae orgin, but no one knows much about it. With that, we had to end for the evening with the party beginning their trek to the door.
----

The players seem to greatly enjoy the roleplay portions as much (if not more) than combat. Each person had a chance to solo roleplay for a bit, and they took time to flesh out more of their character's mannerisms and personalities. I've also found I REALLY enjoy running premade adventures and seem to do so better than my own.

Next time: The Search for the Door Begins! (as always, DM advice is always appreciated).

kyoryu
2010-10-28, 04:45 PM
To add to this excellent advice...



(3) minions die easily; this is pretty much the point. That shouldn't be a problem, you can always add more. Note that 4 minions are much easier than one regular monster of the same level, despite (officially) being the same XP value. This basically means the XP value for minions is too high.

Minions are speed bumps. They have two purposes - slow down the PCs long enough for the main critters to get a couple of unmolested turns, and to provide fodder for AoE attacks so your AoE guys feel all special and snowflakey.



(4) if a defender "marks" your monster, that means it'll face a penalty for attacking somebody else. This does not mean that the monster must attack the defender. Frequently it is worth it to ignore the defender anyway, and go for the squishies.

In fact, a lot of times it's good to have the marked targets ignore the mark, so that the defender can use their abilities and feel special and snowflakey.

If this means they kill stuff too quick, add more stuff or hp. A game where players are using their cool abilities to take down tougher opponents will be more fun than one where everyone does the mathematically optimal choice every turn - even if the overall challenge is the same.



(5) if players come up with clever ideas or good roleplaying for skills, don't be afraid to give them a +5 bonus to the roll. You'll have plenty of skill rolls anyway. Consider that a +1 to a single skill roll really won't make a difference 95% of the time. Giving a +5 to attack rolls isn't recommended though.

When players come up with wacky stuff, another good thing to ask is what kind of player behavior you want to reward. If you want everyone to sit around and rule-lawyer, then it's a great idea to disallow anything cool that the players come up with and play strictly by the book.

If you want a game where characters are taking risks and doing awesome things, then reward them for doing so. This is more important than accidentally giving too much of a bonus once - again, you can always make enemies tougher to compensate.



(8) and finally, Kurald's golden rule for 4E: doing 20 damage now is better than thinking for a minute and then doing 23 damage. Keep gameplay reasonably fast. This goes both for you and for the players: if they're thinking too much, remind them that this is really not a tactical war game, and that not every move needs be the most optimized one.

This is always a sticking point. First, your players need to trust that a single unoptimized move won't kill them. Secondly, you need to set a strong example. In some cases, you may need to more subtly suggest players hurry up, or in the worst case, set a time limit. In most cases, players should know what they're doing before their turn hits. There's really little reason not to in most cases (exception: something happened on the turn right before theirs that drastically changes the situation. But it should be obvious when that happens.)

BobTheDog
2010-10-28, 07:40 PM
When players come up with wacky stuff, another good thing to ask is what kind of player behavior you want to reward. If you want everyone to sit around and rule-lawyer, then it's a great idea to disallow anything cool that the players come up with and play strictly by the book.

If you want a game where characters are taking risks and doing awesome things, then reward them for doing so. This is more important than accidentally giving too much of a bonus once - again, you can always make enemies tougher to compensate.

Neither here nor there would be my advice.

While I agree that giving bonuses for outside-the-box behavior is cool, giving out a lot of bonuses when the players do so might disrupt things. If you give a +5 for the cleric who gives you a good description as to how he is trying to improve his odds at sneaking (Stealth), you take a little shine away from the rogue. Worse yet, if the rogue says "I'll do the same", he will likely not even have to roll.

I think that the basic DMG advice says it all: Say yes. If the players want to try something wacky, let them. Don't make it overly complicated ("yes, you can surf downstairs on top of the shield, but you'll provoke, end up prone, and take 2d10 damage IF you pass a very high Acrobatics check"), but don't give them too much either ("hey guys, check it out, throwing the bad guys into the watermill is +2 to attack and 5d6 damage!!"). Most players will be engaged enough in wackiness (if they are so inclined) merely by knowing that it works.

Eorran
2010-10-29, 10:14 AM
For bonuses, 4e tends to have a +2 for minor things and a +5 for major things.

Keep a copy of the damage and DC table from DMG p.42 at hand (make sure it's the errata'd table). It helps keep your off-the-cuff rulings reasonable and consistent. I bought the DM screen and like it as a super-quick reference for most stuff - I usually refer to it at least a couple times per session, even if it's just to confirm I'm remembering right.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-29, 10:48 AM
While I agree that giving bonuses for outside-the-box behavior is cool, giving out a lot of bonuses when the players do so might disrupt things.
By definition, if they do it often it's not "out of the box" any more.

Also, making PCs succeed at skill checks through cool roleplaying is not "disrupting" anything.


If you give a +5 for the cleric who gives you a good description as to how he is trying to improve his odds at sneaking (Stealth), you take a little shine away from the rogue.
Not at all. It clearly shows how the cleric is putting a lot of effort into sneaking and only succeeds with the aid of his deity, whereas the rogue casually does the same thing because he is just that good at it.

Forever Curious
2010-10-29, 12:45 PM
When we last left our heroes, they were making their way toward the mysterious door spoken of by a deranged half-elf bard. They arrived at the location indicated on the map they were given, discovering the door was an indicator to a strange magically sealed grove. On the other side of the door they could see several golden armadillo-like creatures (Carbuncle Fatalist) and two strange white pillars that Cryysl identified as Enveloping Snugglers, creatures that could mimic appearance and powers of their enemies. The party wasn't aware they could simply walk around the door, and so had their pet spiretop drake attempt to beat down the door. Sadly, the drake contracted Earseeker Infestation, which made him lose his one healing surge. I dropped a hint that they could simply go around the door, so they sent the pet out to strike at one of the Fatalist, slaying it.

Unfortunately, the party didn't notice about half a dozen tiny armed squirrels hidden in the trees, which immediately peppered the drake with arrows. Seeing this, the party leaped into action: Cryysl launched an augmented Dishearten at a group of enemies, killing a few of the squirrels and a Carbuncle, while Birel, Andarta and Florianne attacked one of the Snugglers. Skein waited until one of the Carbuncles was in range and attempted to punch it... but missed, causing it to explode with psychic energy, slaying their spiretop drake. There was mourning. :smallfrown: The Snugglers responded in kind to the party's assault, one grabbing the two rangers and swordmage and the other grabbing the psion. Suddenly, there were two swordmages and two psions. The remaining squirrels attempted to shoot down the monk and cleric to no avail.

What followed was a slaughter: the Snugglers were unable to strike back against the party, having copied non-offensive powers, and Cryysl launched his daily power, Living Missle, flinging one of the Snugglers about and immobilizing it. The squirrels were easily dispatched by the rangers, the cleric healed what little damage had been dealt, and the monk effortlessly clobbered the second Snuggler.

After this mildly easy encounter, the party takes an extended rest. The magic wall prevents creatures from entering or exiting the area, so they are perfectly safe to do so. They then proceed to the next area, separated from the first by a small creek with a log bridge, spotting several rabbits with unicorn horns, a rather aggressive-looking technicolored cow, and a small mole minion atop a knoll. They also hear a strange squelching sound from behind a wall of beanstalks, which Cryysl notices to be the sound of a Stale Trail Flail Snail. With little ado the party rushes to attack. Birel goes first, shooting one of the bunnies, followed by the cow, who can't quite reach her after moving. Andarta goes next and attempts to twin strike the bovine beast, failing rather badly (she rolled a 2, rerolled a 2 using Elven Accuracy, then rolled a 3). Cryysl launches a Dishearten, striking a rabbits and the cow. The rabbits find themselves in a good position and flank-charged them, one missing and burrowing away to charge again next turn. Errika, not wanting to join the fray, leaps into the creak and strikes a rabbit with divine power. Florianne then runs forward and lops off a rabbits ear.

Then... Skein is up. Noticing the rabbits and cow were close together, he jumps into the middle of the action... and uses his daily, called Spinning Leopard Maneuver, allowing him to shift his speed (6 squares) and attack each enemy he moves adjacent to, dealing 3d8+4 on a successful hit. I don't know what he rolled exactly, but it was enough to slay the four rabbits and cow in one attack.

And that was essentially the encounter. The mole got off a single attack, but was struck down by the two rangers. The snail fought valiantly, but with a movement speed of 2 was quickly overcome. Afterwards, we ended for the evening.
------

So...yeah. I dislike liberal use of daily powers, and the ability to take extended rests mid-dungeon more or less unhindered. I'm curious if any other DMs have this little issue and how they curb it. With everyone in the party able to use their daily powers, the next encounter is going to be a cake-walk, which will probably end in another tedious slaughter.

EDIT: I also just discovered that the Spinning Leopard Maneuver was errata'd to 2d6+Dex rather than 3d8+Dex. Which leads me to another important question: how do I address the issue of errata as a DM?

Next time: The Thrilling Conclusion!

kyoryu
2010-10-29, 03:43 PM
So...yeah. I dislike liberal use of daily powers, and the ability to take extended rests mid-dungeon more or less unhindered. I'm curious if any other DMs have this little issue and how they curb it. With everyone in the party able to use their daily powers, the next encounter is going to be a cake-walk, which will probably end in another tedious slaughter.

EDIT: I also just discovered that the Spinning Leopard Maneuver was errata'd to 2d6+Dex rather than 3d8+Dex. Which leads me to another important question: how do I address the issue of errata as a DM?

Next time: The Thrilling Conclusion!

Yeah, don't let the players take extended rests after every fight. That kind of breaks things. I believe the expectation is, what, 4 fights between extended rests?

Two ways to control for this are having some kind of time pressure (must do X within 3 days.. do you really want to waste 8 hours resting now?) and not having safe places to camp constantly available - have then get hit by encounters at night if they try to rest too often... if you don't want to go completely DM fiat, do it by random chance, but periodically give them places to rest that can be effectively secured.

And remember, players caught sleeping by wandering critters are probably surprised, prone, and not wearing their armor.