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Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-22, 12:58 PM
Rescued from a Thread That Shall Not Be Named:


Not to side-track, but for those of you discussing XP, my method is to treat XP and gold interchangably. Classes are supernatural abilities you buy with XP, and XP is something you can buy with gold (or vice versa).

It is amazing how many problems this solves. It explains why you get better at lock-picking by killing things; it explains why you kill things; it explains why peasants matter (since ultimately they are the source of most of your lord's XP); it gives players control over the most important resource in the game, allowing them to choose when and how to advance in levels, or to buy items instead or even to level their mooks (players will actually give XP to henchmen under this system!); it explains why wizards make low-level magic items; it explains why Shadows (and other monsters) don't take over the world; it makes the local lord the most powerful figure around instead of a joke 3rd lvl Aristocrat for the PCs to steamroll; and on and on and on. In particular it explains why the DMG asserts that 1 XP = 5 GP: because it's supposed to.

If you want a sand-box game, you have to have mechanics for the production of the most important resource in the game: XP. Check out my (free) Worldbook for more detail.

Now, I can't see how this would work for a variety of reasons:
(1) Where does the Gold go?

If the gold recirculates, shouldn't there be various immortals hanging around the output sites and using it to buy more levels? Normally, a Lich or other high-level immortal would run into the CL Barrier when trying to gain more levels but here there doesn't seem to be any bar whatsoever to their perpetual power gain.

If the gold doesn't recirculate, there shouldn't be any gold to speak of! Levels are so much more valuable than money that everyone should be saving up 5K GP to purchase Cleric 1 and take care of their personal needs for life. Also, XP is not stealable in the same manner as GP so it is simply more secure to have it in XP form. And finally, any hoarder of GP is going to become a target for necessarially higher-level people who did spend their GP for XP. With all that in mind - how did the world not run out of gold long ago?

(2) Nobody would use gold as a medium of exchange - its "use value" is too high.
People use gold for coinage in low-tech settings because it is resistant to decay, rare, easy to work with, and has no other use in terms of promoting survival. Once gold becomes necessary to survive people aren't going to use it as a unit of trade; they'll use it like they would an apple or plank of wood. Plus, desire for XP is a literally insatiable hunger - like dakka, you can always use more of it.
If anyone wants to explain how the above setting could work in a 3.5 game, I'd like to hear it.

But, I think a more interesting question would be: if true, what kind of game world would this create? Assuming for the moment that "fairy gold" (i.e. gold that can't be used as a spell component) can't be used to buy XP (and that we're not using the "magic trap creation" rules necessary for Tippyverses) how would a D&D3.5 campaign setting with this rule look?

Mikka
2010-10-22, 01:02 PM
If your local level 3 aristocrat lord gets steamrolled by a level 10 party you're doing it wrong : I

Valameer
2010-10-22, 01:05 PM
Check out Yazhi's sig. He's actually really thought this through and made (published?) a cool setting based on it.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-22, 01:09 PM
Check out Yazhi's sig. He's actually really thought this through and made (published?) a cool setting based on it.
...I suppose I'll have to read it when I have the time :smallsigh:

But does he address the issues I raised? Can you give me the short form?

EDIT: Read over the summary on the site (http://www.worldofprime.com/)

Relevant quote:

The mechanism for obtaining these powers is tael, the physical component of the soul. Indestructible and invaluable, tael is harvested from the brains of sentient beings upon their death. Consuming this substance binds the soul to your cause. The more souls you acquire, the greater your power grows. And the more power you have, the more souls you can acquire…

Evil monsters roam the world, preying on the weak. Good kings collect the tael from their people’s natural deaths by old age, and spend the wealth defending the community. Greedy wizards use their magic to exploit the foolish while kindly clerics use theirs to help the less fortunate – or vice versa.
A remarkably dark approach that does solve some problems but just makes others appear. The True Resurrection problem is one - how much XP does a raised body have? What happens to the tael you harvested from it?

Zeofar
2010-10-22, 01:13 PM
...I suppose I'll have to read it when I have the time :smallsigh:

But does he address the issues I raised? Can you give me the short form?

In a less than 1 minute peek into his website, I've determined that in his worldbook, it isn't gold, it is "tael."

First two paragraphs on this page is the "short" version. (http://www.saracreasy.com/worldofprime/game.html)

Valameer
2010-10-22, 01:16 PM
I'll try, but I only skimmed it over.

I think it's something like this:

#1. The gold STAYS gold, the XP remains XP. It's just that XP is a physical thing now, like little crystals. I think every living creature in this setting has the ability to turn their XP into these crystals, or consume the crystals back into XP.

So adventurers might go out, kill some monsters (and harvest the monster's XP) and loot some treasure. Once the adventurers go back to town, they sell the treasure. One adventurer also decides to retire, so he manifests his XP into crystals, and sells them too.

#2. Gold and XP (I think he calls it Tael) are both currency, but gold is more available to the average person.


I think his creation story echoes Birthright's. There were all-powerful gods that died, and their essence is split between every living thing. The reason why a level 20 character can fall 200 feet and live isn't because damage is abstract - it's because with all their Tael they are literally more god-like.

EDIT: I could be completely mistaken though... I'm also gonna go read it over again.:smallredface:

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 01:19 PM
It's a substance stored in brains, and non-sapient creatures give less of it than sapient ones as they don't naturally collect magic right due to either not having souls or having inferior quality souls or something.

It's time-consuming to extract and dangerous to acquire as the best sources of it are things that are rich in it which means they're going to be strong.

Also, periodically brain-eating abominations from beneath the earth rise up and eat the brains of everyone to get their XP if a country becomes too rich or powerful in XP.

More powerful creatures require more of it to grow and have to come by this additional XP from it being provided by the parents either in order to grow up or in order to be conceived/born (accounting for the lower birthrates/populations of more monstrous types) or by being very efficient predators out of the box (dragons) or being more efficient at getting the stuff from the environment (also dragons I believe).

Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-22, 01:23 PM
To elaborate on my proposition: if Resurrected bodies follow the standard resurrection rules, they will be raised with one level lost but the rest of their injuries (such as brains and - presumably - tael) restored.

A powerful and wealthy cleric could easy kill himself, have a powerful ally harvest the tael, and then be raised. The full tael harvested from his dead body would be more than enough to restore his lost level and in gain more XP in the process!

If he couldn't consume the tael himself, he could take turns with the ally - he dies, the ally harvests & raises, and then the ally dies so that the priest could harest & raise.

If harvesting tael actually drains the XP out of the resurrected body, then resurrection is worthless for adventurers. Worse, it allows Evil-but-wealthy Casters to convert 5K GP into 1000 XP endlessly by brainwashing a Commoner 1 to desire to be resurrected continually.

EDIT: And what about Liches? I presumed they keep their Tael in the Phylactery - which means that they can safely consume infinite Tael despite the risk of getting dusted from time to time. Even brain-suckers can't do much about them.

Actually, what about Undead and other sentient-beings-without-organs?

...and what was that about reproduction? Aren't Elves and Drow HD 1 creatures anyhow? Shouldn't we be swimming in them? :smallconfused:

ericgrau
2010-10-22, 01:25 PM
What happens when 4 level 10 characters dump all their xp and pool it to make 1 level 17 character? If monsters forcibly extract it from other monsters?

I think even on a smaller scale it will be broken, but merely less broken.

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 01:32 PM
Mostly I think it's the social system in place combined with some altered setting biology that prevents the more egregious abuses. In addition to that, I don't think anyone has actually researched 8th or 9th level spells yet due to the mortality rate of the setting. The magical technology (and magitek for that matter) level is similarly depressed.

But mostly, yeah, I think it's predicated on ye olde gentleman's agreement.

It was an interesting thought when I first encountered it, and I've sort of been tempted to play around with it myself.

My first experience with D&D was the old Lance and Eskimo article (http://www.lanceandeskimo.com/paul/bill.shtml) about how long it would take to kill him with an axe.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-22, 01:41 PM
Mostly I think it's the social system in place combined with some altered setting biology that prevents the more egregious abuses. In addition to that, I don't think anyone has actually researched 8th or 9th level spells yet due to the mortality rate of the setting. The magical technology (and magitek for that matter) level is similarly depressed.

But mostly, yeah, I think it's predicated on ye olde gentleman's agreement.
...pretty much what I expected.

Well, how could you handle such a world? My thoughts.

(1) No Resurrection
If you die, you're dead. This resolves the problem of XP Loops and adds a touch of darkness.

(2) The Brainless Don't Carry Tael, and Can't Use It
This is predominantly important for Undead; if they become Undead (free-willed or otherwise) they can no longer use Tael and, when killed, they do not produce any. They could still gain XP in a normal fashion, but this will severely cramp the style of any Liches who want Real Ultimate Power. Plus, it makes for a nice trade-off between Cheating Death and Power.

Also, I'd axe the Birth Rate-Tael link; that's just asking for trouble.

Still, there's the problem of normal Immortals (like Demons and Angels) since they both have brains and, well, souls. Plus, long-lived creatures are certainly going to be dramatically more powerful than short-lifers; Evil Elves (and Elan) should basically run the place!

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 02:05 PM
Well, how could you handle such a world? My thoughts.

(1) No Resurrection
If you die, you're dead. This resolves the problem of XP Loops and adds a touch of darkness.

(2) The Brainless Don't Carry Tael, and Can't Use It
This is predominantly important for Undead; if they become Undead (free-willed or otherwise) they can no longer use Tael and, when killed, they do not produce any. They could still gain XP in a normal fashion, but this will severely cramp the style of any Liches who want Real Ultimate Power. Plus, it makes for a nice trade-off between Cheating Death and Power.

Also, I'd axe the Birth Rate-Tael link; that's just asking for trouble.

Still, there's the problem of normal Immortals (like Demons and Angels) since they both have brains and, well, souls. Plus, long-lived creatures are certainly going to be dramatically more powerful than short-lifers; Evil Elves (and Elan) should basically run the place!

Base setting has the outer planes either nonexistent or just unknown with no ways of accessing them. The elemental planes are in concentric rings within the planet/plane of the setting and there's naturally occurring and artificially induced portals to other dimensions/material planes, only some of which have magic, which are where most of the inhabitants of the world hail from. So outsiders are just swept off the board by the default.

In the setting rules, Elves have a minimum of 4th-6th level before they're considered adults capable of going off on their own, IIRC. I believe the Elves are involved in some sort of power gambit involving their portal to their home planet in order to raise an army large and high leveled enough to take over the world and eliminate the brain-eaters. So they're actually working on it, but view outright conflict with the feudal human culture as a wasteful distraction that the brain-eaters would just take advantage of to eat more brains.

As far as how I'd handle it...

Well, I'd probably rule that for undead as well, making them even more groan-worthy to be dealt with and more insidious seeming.

And it'd also cut off spell-stitched and necropolitan from PCs... Resurrection I'm inclined to be a bit more forgiving with but don't really see any other way to prevent abuse without making it also inapplicable to most character deaths. Raise Dead at least requires the body to be intact so no tael harvesting anyway...