PDA

View Full Version : Master of the Unseenhand why so bad?



Sir Swindle89
2010-10-22, 01:59 PM
I saw some one call Master of the unseen hand a bad class in another thread and i was wondering what would lead some one to make that assertion. The class is clearly not 10 levels of wizard but it does well at what it's trying to do.

Note: I've had my master of the unseen hand privileges revoked at one of my usual gaming groups.

Kobold-Bard
2010-10-22, 02:03 PM
MotUH is a class for casters that doesn't get caster level & spell progression. Also in order to use it's class features you either have to spend all your (limited) high level slots on the same spell or pay 75k on a ring that can be stolen/broken whenever the DM gets annoyed at you. Or be a Ghost (though again +5LA doesn't help casters any).

Coidzor
2010-10-22, 02:58 PM
This is also the reason why Arcane Archer is frowned upon.

Prime32
2010-10-22, 03:30 PM
Or be a Ghost (though again +5LA doesn't help casters any).*cough* Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) *cough*

Kobold-Bard
2010-10-22, 03:37 PM
*cough* Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) *cough*

That's still two levels (or an entire spell level) wasted in order to be able to use just about ALL of your class features every 1d4 rounds. Not good.

Prime32
2010-10-22, 03:39 PM
That's still two levels (or an entire spell level) wasted in order to be able to use just about ALL of your class features every 1d4 rounds. Not good.Telekinesis has a duration of longer than 1d4 rounds. That only matters if you get hit by a dispel.

jiriku
2010-10-22, 03:42 PM
Yeah. 5 caster levels > telekinesis shenanigans. Whatever quoteunquote "broken" thing your DM thought you were doing when he banned MotUH for you, you could have done much, much, more by simply taking 5 more levels of wizard.

Kobold-Bard
2010-10-22, 03:43 PM
Telekinesis has a duration of longer than 1d4 rounds. That only matters if you get hit by a dispel.

Hmm, didn't realise that. I thought with Ghosts it only worked for that one round in which it was used.

Still a lost spell level though to be a Ghost (not for everyone), but that is some helpful knowledge to have thanks.

thompur
2010-10-22, 03:48 PM
It's really only 'bad' in terms of CharOp and TO builds. If you had fun playing it, it's a good class.

Kansaschaser
2010-10-22, 03:52 PM
Let others think it's a bad class. I personaly think it's a great class and I've used it to great effect on many occasions.

Get 15 adamantine warmaces. They do 1D12 and they weigh only 10 pounds.

At the beginning of the day, use Reach Spell and Chain spell on a Greater Mighty Wallop. If you are at least 16th level, it will increase their damage to the equivelant of what a Colossal warmace would do, without increasing the weight. They would then be doing 8D6 damage each.

You can then also use Greater Magic Weapon or other spells to increase the effectiveness of the warmaces.

If you have 15 Warmaces that do Colossal sized damage, you could be doing up to 120D6 per violent thrust. If you gave it a magical bonus with Greater Magic Weapon, then you could be doing an additional 60 points of damage on top of that.

Add the fact that you can prepare numerous types of weapons for any situation, then cast Shrink Item on them at the beginning of the day, or the beginning of the week. You could have weapons of cold iron, silver, etc...

Prime32
2010-10-22, 04:06 PM
Let others think it's a bad class. I personaly think it's a great class and I've used it to great effect on many occasions.

Get 15 adamantine warmaces. They do 1D12 and they weigh only 10 pounds.

At the beginning of the day, use Reach Spell and Chain spell on a Greater Mighty Wallop. If you are at least 16th level, it will increase their damage to the equivelant of what a Colossal warmace would do, without increasing the weight. They would then be doing 8D6 damage each.

You can then also use Greater Magic Weapon or other spells to increase the effectiveness of the warmaces.

If you have 15 Warmaces that do Colossal sized damage, you could be doing up to 120D6 per violent thrust. If you gave it a magical bonus with Greater Magic Weapon, then you could be doing an additional 60 points of damage on top of that.

Add the fact that you can prepare numerous types of weapons for any situation, then cast Shrink Item on them at the beginning of the day, or the beginning of the week. You could have weapons of cold iron, silver, etc...
Try sianghams.

Brilliant aura is an awesome spell for these builds. Especially since brilliant energy weapons can't harm you if you're a ghost.

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 05:20 PM
Let others think it's a bad class. I personaly think it's a great class and I've used it to great effect on many occasions.

Get 15 adamantine warmaces. They do 1D12 and they weigh only 10 pounds.

At the beginning of the day, use Reach Spell and Chain spell on a Greater Mighty Wallop. If you are at least 16th level, it will increase their damage to the equivelant of what a Colossal warmace would do, without increasing the weight. They would then be doing 8D6 damage each.

You can then also use Greater Magic Weapon or other spells to increase the effectiveness of the warmaces.

If you have 15 Warmaces that do Colossal sized damage, you could be doing up to 120D6 per violent thrust. If you gave it a magical bonus with Greater Magic Weapon, then you could be doing an additional 60 points of damage on top of that.

Add the fact that you can prepare numerous types of weapons for any situation, then cast Shrink Item on them at the beginning of the day, or the beginning of the week. You could have weapons of cold iron, silver, etc...

Guess what: That's a trick a Wizard can do. Doesn't take a Master of the Unseen Hand. Sure, you get your stat to damage and a bit better BAB, whatever. Gishes do it just fine without that, and don't fail otherwise, and Divine Power always exists as a persistable. And you can just recast Telekinesis to do it again.

The spell is fine. The class loses 5 caster levels and none of its class features are nearly as strong as 9th level spells. And if you go there as a half caster or some such, you'll lose out on BAB too. And either way you'll be hurting on spell slots to use for Telekinesis. It's decidedly meh.

NEO|Phyte
2010-10-22, 05:51 PM
I've found that the best use of MotUH is to be a ghost monk5(for the concentration ranks and unarmed damage)/MotUH 5/Whatever.

Grapple stuff to death with your mind from 100 paces.

Jack_Simth
2010-10-22, 05:58 PM
I've found that the best use of MotUH is to be a ghost monk5(for the concentration ranks and unarmed damage)/MotUH 5/Whatever.

Grapple stuff to death with your mind from 100 paces.Pretty much. Except for some fairly specialized uses, the Master of the Unseen hand is a monster PrC - as in, a PrC for monsters. Goes great on a Balor or a Maralith, not so great on a Wizard.

Flickerdart
2010-10-22, 06:02 PM
I've found that the best use of MotUH is to be a ghost monk5(for the concentration ranks and unarmed damage)/MotUH 5/Whatever.

Grapple stuff to death with your mind from 100 paces.
Wouldn't it be better to go into that PrC or take that feat that lets you choke-hold people to death?

NEO|Phyte
2010-10-22, 06:06 PM
Wouldn't it be better to go into that PrC or take that feat that lets you choke-hold people to death?

Only grappling PrC I know of is Reaping Mauler, and it's widely regarded as a trap. Not sure how much telekinesising the grapple changes that fact.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-22, 07:33 PM
Only grappling PrC I know of is Reaping Mauler, and it's widely regarded as a trap. Not sure how much telekinesising the grapple changes that fact.

It isn't a trap: it is a enigma. The answer is Levithan Hunter (now you an grapple any size while any size).
I'm surprised few got the memo.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-10-22, 07:59 PM
Where is Leviathan Hunter found? And MotUH can be fun, but is decidedly less capable than a full caster (at least, in the high optimization setting I played one in). Its tricks are pretty cool, but you are subject to dispells (like any caster, I suppose) and may the Burning Hate have mercy on you if you go up against an Incantatrix. I had one steal my TK while I was wielding several vorpal swords (that I'd stolen from some Baalors I'd slain), and it sliced the head off of a party member's King o' Smack.

Blastfire
2010-10-22, 09:41 PM
Using Familiar concentration, and extra familiar (dragon mag somewhere) you can have an awful lot of uberpowered telekinesis going on. Essentially turning each of you familiars into an awesome fighter type.

Amphetryon
2010-10-22, 10:01 PM
Where is Leviathan Hunter found? And MotUH can be fun, but is decidedly less capable than a full caster (at least, in the high optimization setting I played one in). Its tricks are pretty cool, but you are subject to dispells (like any caster, I suppose) and may the Burning Hate have mercy on you if you go up against an Incantatrix. I had one steal my TK while I was wielding several vorpal swords (that I'd stolen from some Baalors I'd slain), and it sliced the head off of a party member's King o' Smack.

Leviathan Hunter is in Stormwrack.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-10-22, 10:07 PM
It isn't a trap: it is a enigma. The answer is Levithan Hunter (now you an grapple any size while any size).
I'm surprised few got the memo.

Tell me more of this Leviathan Hunter synergy. I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

(In a PM, if necessary, to avoid derailing, or possibly a new topic)

I've just always liked the concept of the Leviathan Hunter, but never got to put it in a build.