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View Full Version : Lost Caster Levels vs. Feats



Kyros Pyralis
2010-10-22, 03:11 PM
I'm in the middle of planning out a character. For the sake of this discussion the premise/backstory is irrelevant, except mentioning that he is an evil, martially oriented Cleric focused on debuffing.

I have two possible builds that I have considered. Each has its own good points, and I'm wondering what is more worth it. Here are the builds:
Cleric 3/Human Paragon 3/Bone Knight 10/Cleric 4 (choice A)
or
Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 1/Bone Knight 10/Cleric 3 (choice B)

Here is the problem I have:
With (A) I lose an additional caster level vs (B). Over (B) I gain a few advantages, however; the most beneficial one is the addition of 2 extra Feats (since H Paragon gets one bonus and I'm not losing a feat on Mounted Combat). One of the lesser benefits of (A) over (B) is the fact that I get +2 to Wis, which makes my spells harder to resist. Although those spells will be a lower level, my status as a debuffer is aided by the higher DCs. Choice (A) will also allow me to enter Bone Knight one level sooner and allow me to keep Concentration as a class skill for my entire 20 levels (since I will be doind a lot of defensive casting in combat).

Just to summarize:
Is it preferable to have +1 Caster level OR 2 extra feats, +2 to Wis, earlier access to a PrC, and more skill points to assign to relevant areas?

Thank you for any feedback.

Psyren
2010-10-22, 04:23 PM
Evil Prestige Paladin? If you swung Paladin of Tyranny you get the awesome Dominate Person as a 4th-level spell. That's a great argument for B.

Kyros Pyralis
2010-10-22, 04:28 PM
Evil Prestige Paladin? If you swung Paladin of Tyranny you get the awesome Dominate Person as a 4th-level spell. That's a great argument for B.

I have Domination as a domain. Although multiple uses might be nice, good point.

Kyros Pyralis
2010-10-23, 07:01 PM
Seeing as no one had any opinions as of yet, I think that I'll try the Human Paragon option and see how it works out. Just one last thing that concerns me: Is it going to be that much of a drawback losing levels for turn/rebuke if I'm going to be using them mostly for divine feats?

imperialspectre
2010-10-23, 08:17 PM
If you're using turn/rebuke attempts for divine feats, then your level is utterly irrelevant. You can get just as much turning mileage for divine feats from Cleric 1 as Cleric 20.

Endarire
2010-10-23, 08:27 PM
Why are Human Paragon and Prestige Paladin important to you? Why not go ClericX/Bone Knight?

I'm not familiar with Bone Knight, but I would advocate Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX. Tome of Battle has Crusader and RKV. See A Quick Guide to the Ruby Knight Vindicator (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4330.0), Cleric Handbook (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologists.com%2Fboard s%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D420.0&rct=j&q=D%26D%20Cleric%20Handbook%20site%3Abrilliantgame ologists.com&ei=VYzDTIW7I4mgsQOkiOGjDA&usg=AFQjCNG_pHm3vnLbj7bRBOxIRkI2SkNDFA&sig2=Q51j9rEc_JXBvgVnTTTOug&cad=rja), and Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.wizards.com%2Fgo%2Fthre ad%2Fview%2F75882%2F19871270%2FTome_of_Battle_for_ Dummies&rct=j&q=D%26D%20Tome%20of%20Battle%20Dummies&ei=eozDTNPqBYP2tgOMzuCmAw&usg=AFQjCNHTmFkTd6N8hcvbd_zvGonm_KaIIw&sig2=vMuB9XysJHS37UlQDxNkAQ&cad=rja).

You lose more caster levels, but you get spiffy maneuvers. Works best as a melee "war priest." Nab some healing maneuvers and you'll be one tough noogie to kill! Your party too, if you heal them,

Also, have you seriously considered dipping Contemplative (Complete Divine)? You get an extra domain at level 1, and class features.

Kyros Pyralis
2010-10-23, 10:15 PM
Why are Human Paragon and Prestige Paladin important to you? Why not go ClericX/Bone Knight?
The 6 ranks in ride Pre Req of BK means that I can't get it until level 10 for straight Cleric, Paragon lets me get into it at level 7 with -1CL and Paladin lets me get into it at level 8 with no caster levels lost.


I'm not familiar with Bone Knight, but I would advocate Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX.
Bone Knight gets you some nice stuff like immunity to criticals/SA/stun/sleep/paralysis/disease/fatigue/ability damage/DR/mid affecting/etc, fight normally until -10hp, deal extra damage to living creatures, and 1/day death attack.
Also, I have a Crusader 1/Swordsage 4/Cleric 5/RKV 10 character (with spontaneous divine variant) already and want to try something different.


Also, have you seriously considered dipping Contemplative (Complete Divine)? You get an extra domain at level 1, and class features.
Divine Health and Slippery Mind are useless because of the Bone Knight levels. The extra domain is rather nice, but I'm wondering if it is worth lowering 2 of my already iffy saves along with my BAB.

Thank you for the suggestions, my RKV is very fun to play and always a good recommendation for melee clerics.

Fizban
2010-10-24, 03:33 AM
I would say that 2 feats are worth more than 1 spellcaster level. If you look at number of levels vs number of feats, you have 20 levels and only 7 feats, so it's a very good trade. If you look at overall spellcasting power, a loss of 1 or two levels usually seems to be acceptable in the high optimization crowd, as long as you're doing it for something good, and two more feats is good. Additionally, you get in the the PrC you want a level sooner, which means more game time spent being what you want to be, and you get to the signature abilities sooner.

For a feat starved build (and from the sound of it this one is), I'd easily lose 2 spellcaster levels for 2 feats. For example, with the right gish build you can get full casting and great BAB, but you still won't have enough feats to split between spells and fighting, so I'd recommend 2 levels of fighter even if it is "less spells= less power". If you need to cut some spellcasting to make the character you want, don't sweat it, you can afford 1 level no problem and 2 levels if you work for it. It's not till you're 3 levels behind that you're seriously in trouble.

Kyros Pyralis
2010-10-24, 12:49 PM
That's good to know Fizban, I was afraid I would be nerfing myself. While I do try to go for flavor over optimization, I don't want to be the useless guy. Thanks.