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Kaeso
2010-10-22, 03:57 PM
The title says it all: what are the ways to improve the BAB for a class that has low BAB, besides the obvious persistent divine power cheese?

Telonius
2010-10-22, 04:06 PM
Do you need BAB specifically, or just generic attack bonuses? An actual BAB increase is fairly hard to come by, other than as a class feature. The only ways I know of would be either DMM, or some other version of extreme cheese (pun-pun level). You can also get it by Gestalt, but I don't think that's exactly what you're looking for.

It's barely possible that this would ever apply, but if an item required a certain BAB to use, you could UMD it to emulate the required score.

Kaeso
2010-10-22, 04:07 PM
Do you need BAB specifically, or just generic attack bonuses? An actual BAB increase is fairly hard to come by, other than as a class feature. The only ways I know of would be either DMM, or some other version of extreme cheese (pun-pun level). You can also get it by Gestalt, but I don't think that's exactly what you're looking for.

It's barely possible that this would ever apply, but if an item required a certain BAB to use, you could UMD it to emulate the required score.

Well, both would be nice. I'm actually looking for a beguiler that can still be useful when an opponent is immune to enchantments and/or illusions.

Malbordeus
2010-10-22, 04:16 PM
*facepalms*

beguilers have other powers too, however. consider runestaves or taking up a buffing role?

but if you must have offensive abilities...

Ruathur? or however its spelt. some class a player of mine sprung on me once that gives a good bab without loosing your spellcasting small class though... 3 levels i think.
abjurant champion (prc in the complete mage... i think beguilers get enough abjurations to qualify)

prestiging into fiend blooded or sandshaper. no bab there, but both expand your spell list a silly amount.

Psyren
2010-10-22, 04:29 PM
Well, both would be nice. I'm actually looking for a beguiler that can still be useful when an opponent is immune to enchantments and/or illusions.

There's an app spell for that. Beguilers have plenty; Glitterdust, Solid Fog, the shadow line... if you really want more offensive power, rather than giving up spellcasting for BAB, you can just PrC into something that gives you more toys like Ultimate Magus or Exalted Arcanist.

Keld Denar
2010-10-22, 04:38 PM
Google around for a couple of Beguiler guides. They have a lot of advice for things Beguilers can do when foes are immune to their direct effect spells. If something is Mindless, like a Skelly or Construct, you can wrap it in an illusory stone wall with Silent Image. Being mindless, it shouldn't have the cognative ability to recognize that the wall is not real, and thus would just sit there until the point when the wall is no longer a concern. You don't see skeletons in pits running into the walls continuously, why would a skeleton in a 5'x5' stone prison do the same?

Hawk7915
2010-10-22, 04:38 PM
I can't think of a way that isn't terrible (Weapon Focus, Vexing Flanker for passive attack bonuses) that doesn't involve dipping or PrC-ing...

- A two-level dip into Factocum grants slightly more BAB and the ability to add int to attack, damage, or AC a few times a day, without losing access to 9th level spells.

- I believe that Beguilers get enough divinations to qualify for Unseen Seer. Unseen Seer doesn't grant better BAB, but it does grant sneak attack dice and adds various diviniations to your spell list (True Strike) that help you not suck in a fight. Sneak attack dice means you can leap into Arcane Trickster without ever losing a caster level, which grants even more Sneak Attack dice.

- It's pretty ghetto, but Combat Expertise -> Improved Feint gives you swift action feinting. That's normally terrible, but in the above build, Beguiler 6/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10 has lousy BAB, but it has swift action feint with +7d6 sneak attack dice (and that one divination to get much, much more if you want it).

- That's all good for giving you something to do, but a Gish build is what would give you real combat power. Hard to do without losing some caster levels; possible with Fighter/Beguiler/Eldritch Knight (I don't think you get enough Abjuration to qualify for Abjurant Champion which is like 100x better than the Knight).

- Martial Study for some Diamond Mind maneuvers (Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Emerald Razor, Insightful Strike, Mind over Body) let you use your probably excellent Concentration to do some damage and cover your fortitude save. Heck, a warblade 1 dip does this for you as well (and segues nicely into Eldritch Knight, Jade Phoenix Mage, or Abjurant Champion although you've got to be careful not to lose 9th level spells).

Darrin
2010-10-22, 04:41 PM
The title says it all: what are the ways to improve the BAB for a class that has low BAB, besides the obvious persistent divine power cheese?

Could you be a bit more specific about what you're trying to improve? If it's a wizard's BAB or a rogue's BAB, well, there are a variety of different strategies.

Off the top of my head:

Skillful weapon (CArc p. 144) - Guarantees medium BAB
Heart of the Beast (MoF p. 160) - Divine Powah! one-shot
Soulmelds (MoI) - various bonuses for ranged attacks, unarmed strikes, etc.
Planar Touchstone - a few sites have +1 to all melee/ranged/unarmed attacks
Knight of the Middle Circle (DotF p. 65) - Combat Sense +2/+4/+6

Glimbur
2010-10-22, 04:41 PM
The Skillful weapon enhancement from Complete Arcane and probably also MiC will up your BAB. You're better off casting spells though, as others have said.

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 04:58 PM
There is the ridiculous cheese with Kensai. But it is ridiculous.

Kaeso
2010-10-22, 05:17 PM
There is the ridiculous cheese with Kensai. But it is ridiculous.

Do tell!!!

Psyren
2010-10-22, 06:15 PM
Are you set on being a gish? There's plenty of magical solutions to your dilemma, you know. :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-10-22, 06:42 PM
Do tell!!!

Well, Kensai get an ability called Instill at 8th level. It allows the kensai to 'lend' his base attack bonus for other creatures, for 1 hour, once per day. With action points and a cohort kensai, this gets silly very easily.

Hawk7915
2010-10-22, 07:56 PM
Another thread reminded me that since you get a bajillion skill points as a Beguiler (high int, 6/level), Knowledge Devotion is workable although not optimal (I don't think any of those knowledges are class skills? Maybe local is...).

Honestly, if you want to be a "spellcaster who focuses on illusions but is okay in a fight", wizard or sorcerer is going to be a much better starting point. Because Beguiler is already sort of "dual-classed" (as a rogue/caster) and because it has such a narrow spell list, it's much harder to add a third thing to his repertoire.