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View Full Version : [3.5] Dervish Build - Advice welcome



Alien Mole
2010-10-22, 05:12 PM
Hi ho!

Obligatory first post stuff. Long time listener, first time caller etc.

Naw, seriously, I'm a pretty big fan of these forums (comic as well) and I've been slowly but steadily cultivating a D&D obsession for the past year or so. I spent the breaks durings my finals memorising sourcebooks (it soothed me) which has turned me into something of an avid character buildy person. Which is why I'm making this post in the first place: I'd like some advice on a build.

First things first: it's -not- an attempt at absolute character optimisation; more an attempt at an optimised flavour build. It should be fairly effective, and I'm open to advice to make it even more so, but I'm not planning on on completely switching classes around to some insane degree just to get two more damage per round, if you know what I mean.
Anyways, here goes the build. The concept is a fairly brutal/sadistic, clever and extremely nimble fighter, essentially a storm of steel and destruction. But in a totally elegant sort of way. As a secondary characteristic, I'd like him to have something of a 'veteran' air about him, i.e. a capable, experienced combatant with a good sense of tactics.
I should also say that the campaign is zero-to-low magic and the other members are a rogue/assassin, a barbarian/fist of the forest/frostrager, a fighter/monk/shou disciplesomething and a non-spellcasting bard that the DM has assigned a fairly sizeable number of bonus feats (he will be using leadership in order to gain a ranged swift hunter cohort).

We're at level 3 right now, going up to 20 and beyond.

Here's the build:

Rhaevan
Male Lawful Evil Lesser Tiefling (tweaked; only 2 resistances)
Age: 35.
Starting stats:
STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 9
CHA: 4

L1: Swashbuckler (Swb1: Weapon Finesse) (L1: Two-Weapon Fighting) (Flaw: Murky-Eyed - Combat Expertise) (Flaw: Pathetic Charisma, 'monstrous' x2 armour cost - Expeditious Dodge) (Trait: Quick) (Trait: Aggressive) (Trait: Suspicious; all allowed)
L2: Kensai[Fighter variant] (Kns1: Weapon of choice: Great Scimitar)
L3: Swashbuckler (Swb2: Grace) (L3: Improved Trip)
L4: Kensai (Kns2: Mobility) +1 DEX
L5: Swashbuckler (Swb3: Insightful Strike)
L6: Dervish (Drv1: Dervish Dance, Slashing Blades, Movement Mastery) (L6: Elusive Target)
L7: Dervish (Drv2: Fast Movement +5)
L8: Dervish (Drv3: Spring Attack) +1STR
L9 Dervish (Drv4: Dance of Death) (L9: Flay Foe)
L10 Dread Commando (DrC1: Sudden Strike 1d6, class level to team INIT, 5% concealment in natural terrain per class level)
L11: Dervish (Drv5: Fast Movement +10)
L12: Dread Commando (DrC2) (L12: Imp. 2WF) +1 DEX
L13: Dervish (Drv6: Improved Reaction)
L14: Dread Commando (DrC3: 2d6 Sudden Strike)
L15: Dervish (Drv7: Elaborate Parry) (L15: Improved Initiative)
L16: Dread Commando (DrC4: Stealthy Movement) +1 DEX
L17: Dervish (Drv8: Fast Movement +15)
L18: Dread Commando (DrC5: Sudden Strike 3d6) (L18: Greater 2WF)
L19: Dervish (Drv9: Tireless Dance)
L20: Dervish (Drv10: A Thousand Cuts) +1 DEX

Skills: Escape Artist 22, Hide 21, Jump 23, Move Silently 21, Perform (Dance) 23, Tumble 23

Tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Back on Your Feet, Extreme Leap, Nimble Stand, Tumbling Crawl

Saves: FORT 12, REF 18, WILL 8 (This should be less dangerous than in other campaigns as there isn't a lot of magic)

HP: 139

AC: 22 without Exp. Dodge, Combat Expertise or Defensive Fighting.

INIT: +18

Equipment: 2 Keen Great Scimitars, Mithral Breastplate with appropriate bonuses. Very low-magic settings so I don't know which other gear I might be able to managed. The DM has ruled that Great Scimitars are compatible with Dervish, so there y'go.

Attacks: potentially 14/round at 1d8+4d6+11 (ish) during a surprise round with A Thousand Cuts - this is pretty obviously a nova build at higher levels.

The main tactic would obviously be to win initiative and cut everything to ribbons. The build should be able to AC/dodge tank between concealment and the 35-ish AC that I can manage between Combat Expertise and Defensive Fighting - Elusive Target should also help here.
My main concerns are these: are there any slight inefficiencies or potential tweaks I may have missed? Are there any feat/skill choices that are extremely suboptimal? Is there any equipment I should aim to get provided that I can obtain it? I know flat damage bonuses to weapon damage should be good, but apart from that I'm not sure.
For the record: I know there are probably better PrCs than Dread Commando, but I -really- like the flavour and my team should hate me less for potentially ending encounters in 1 round if I can give them all +5 init.

Whew. Bit of a long first post and I'm sure I'll edit it as I remember things I need to add. I'd be grateful for any comments or criticisms anyone has to offer. Any comments on survivability would also be quite welcome; I estimate it to be acceptably good considering the low-magic setting, but any tips are most welcome.

Cheers!

- Alien Mole

Eldariel
2010-10-22, 06:19 PM
You have one huge, huge issue in that build: Your reliance on precision damage is obscene. 4d6 and Int of your damage only works if your opponent is vulnerable to critical hits. Rest of the time? Sucks to be you. And by 20, the following things grant immunity to criticals:

Type (Elemental, Ooze, Construct, Plant, Undead are naturally immune along with individuals from other types like Outsiders and Aberrations)

Greater Fortifications Armor

Various spells (Heart of X-line [notably lasts hour/level], many of the Xform line, tons of others)

Warshaper

And many others.


Now, this isn't horrible. Having Swashbuckler can work quite fine early on. But you definitely need other sources of bonus damage. Note that your damage output is perfectly respectable; 14xavg level 20 damage = 413; not amazing, but reasonable, especially as it doesn't account for all the magic buffs you'll have.

Dread Commando definitely isn't worth it. You may want an extra level of Fighter; Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery [PHBII] would grant you way more damage output. Further, you could easily pick up extra feats for e.g. Deadly Defense [CScoundrel] for 2 more and company. If you have access to it, Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle could grant you Dex to Damage with some weapons; could work fine. And of course, levels in Swordsage or Warblade would help out a lot.

Also, there's a Fighter variant in Drow of the Underdark called Hit'n'Run Fighter; it grants you Dexterity to damage against flat-footed opponents. Sounds like exactly what you're going for. Gives up Heavy Armor and Tower Shield (I recall) proficiency which you probably don't give a damn about anyways. Seems like it'd be a must-have.


I mean, I wouldn't worry about Dread Commando efficiency-wise. But honestly, it seems like there are other ways to branch out with your abilities instead of focusing on dealing lots of damage to some enemy categories and being completely useless against others. Other ways for the same class levels to somehow grant a team bonus too.

gorfnab
2010-10-23, 02:55 AM
If you want precision damage and movement for a Dervish build look into Scout (CAdv). Scout X / Swash 1 or 3 maybe?/ Lion Totem (CC) Whirling Frenzy (UA) Barbarian 1 or 2/ Dervish X might be an option. Also here is the Dervish Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook).

Alien Mole
2010-10-23, 04:25 AM
Thanks for all the help so far!

@ Eldariel: Duly noted on the precision damage thing, but I did make the consideration that a significant amount of these enemy types we'll not actually encounter, given the low-magic setting; the same goes for the spell-based crit immunities. No magic, no problem.

Damage-wise I also don't think we'll be seeing a lot of magic items, but I'm given to understand that there will be a 'greater masterwork' variant that counts as the flat +X enchantments. I should be able to use that to some effect.

Actually, on the subject on damage: say that you were a DM, would you allow me to take Power Attack and apply it to my dual-wielded finesse great scimitars? (I just -love- that Dervish lets you do that). Because power attack could solve all my problems as I'd have a pretty ridiculous to-hit.

Good call on the Deadly Defense - I thought I wouldn't take it as I figured it would be precision damage as well. Is 1d6 under such circumstances worth it from a char-op point of view? Essentially, is it worth taking a -4 to attack in exchange for +7 AC and 1d6 damage, or a -2 to attack for +2 AC and 1d6?

For the record, I believe I'd still be looking at 1d8+1d6+8 damage per hit on crit-immune enemies; 1d6 would become 2d6 with Deadly Defense. Not fantastic by anyone's reckoning, I suppose, but I can still tank worth something at that point.

Question, then: should I take Deadly Defense over Improved Initiative?

As for the Hit'n run fighter, good call on that, but I'm unfortunately already using a fighter variant (kensai) which gets me free Great Scimitar proficiency and weapon focus/specialisation at +1 per five levels. I've considered taking it into epic levels to actually have some use for the progression (and there's still bonus feats every two levels). I don't seem to qualify for a lot of epic feats anyways, so I might as well take a bucketload of lighter ones.

Re: the dread commando I'm quite aware that it's sub-optimal but I'm already sort of the party's munchkin so I'm choosing this one for flavour instead of optimal combat ability. Like you said, it shouldn't exactly weaken the build but won't raise its power, either.

Shadow Blade would be a good idea, but ToB is unfortunately a no-no.

@ Gorfnab: I've already extensively used the Dervish Handbook, and I'm good for precision damage, thanks :D Barbarian would just not fit my character concept, and I don't know if I have class slots to spare.

In case anyone can think of a third PrC that would work well with this build in epic levels, do please let me know. Otherwise I'll continue either fighter (kensai) or Dervish, both of which should provide good damage/feat progression.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-23, 09:11 AM
If you switched from Int to Cha focused, you could be a Bard early on and nab Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), which adds Cha to hit and lets you Power Attack to oblivion and beyond. Being a Bard also adds a little versatility and lets you buff others when hitting stuff isn't really an option.

nargbop
2010-10-23, 11:39 AM
Beware of Multiple Attribute Dependency in a low-magic campaign; if you can't find those Tomes of Ability +5 you're going to be sad.