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Randel
2010-10-23, 03:47 AM
One day a human (Lets call him Mister Bad Guy) decides that he really hates demons. Like he really truly despises them and wishes that every single one of them was dead. Not just that but that Hell didn't exist and that Asmodeous and every other high level demon lord was permanantly dead as well. Then Hell was scoured clean and it never had anything bad going on in it again.

Then after that he might move on to wipe out those other evil-aligned planes or maybe even some good aligned ones if he thinks the inhabitants are particularly snooty. Of course he'd also kill every monster in the Prime Material Plane as well.

Lets just say that Mister Bad Guy is an omnicidal maniac that particularly wants to target his wrath towards pretty much everything in the multiverse that looks down on humans. Demons are just really high up on his list.

What would the best course of action be? He's totally willing to create an army or undead horde or activate some kind of magical superweapon to achieve his goals but would also like to kill as many of his enemies personally as possible (so he gets XP for it and can hopefully get to a high enough level to challenge or surpass all the demon lords and such out there).

Eloel
2010-10-23, 03:51 AM
Demons in Hell...

Does not compute.

You meant Abyss?

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-23, 03:52 AM
Killing every single devil/demon/fiend ever is probably not feasible.

Especially since Baator can get Celestia to back its shiz up.

Eloel
2010-10-23, 03:53 AM
Killing every single demon ever is probably not feasible.


Also this. Infinite layers of Abyss. Infinite demons in each. You need a force like that of Hell to keep them from coming out, let alone force them clean.

Sploosh
2010-10-23, 03:59 AM
I remember reading about someone on here who managed to chain mindseed people to the point where they were basically in control of the material plane and taking over others as they went.

Im sure such a build would be a good start, since you could in time, become all the people who aren't fighting the demons already and between getting several more planes involved in the Blood War and massive breeding plans, you'd have your own army able to contribute significantly.

Assuming you get a foot hold on the abyss, and can provide enough resources via create food resetting traps and whatnot, you could just keep increasing the population. You can res people who die, ensuring they live their maxiumum age, and with elves and whatnot, you can get a pretty scary population scale as long as you keep expanding your foothold in the abyss.

Then you realize all your people being born are able to level up into epic wizards and whatnot while keeping to expand the population and you have yourselves a pretty decent chance.

Balor01
2010-10-23, 04:00 AM
Did not some character in OOTS manage to kill this black dragon and with some spell also eradicate his entire lineage? Similar thing could be attempted.

Or Pun-Pun: Takes feat Infinite demon extermination (makes it up, he is Pun Pun) and literally causes an infinite number of demons to be killed. Then again, the moment he ceases to use this power, demons reappear - there is an infinite number of them.

And finally:
Killing all the demons would mean a major disbalance in order of things. I thing some evil gods would say no to that. Also several neutral.

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 04:05 AM
Demons in Hell...

Does not compute.

You meant Abyss?

Oh there's plenty of 'em in the 1st layer. Almost feasible to do so, really.


Did not some character in OOTS manage to kill this black dragon and with some spell also eradicate his entire lineage? Similar thing could be attempted.

Problem here is that the demons aren't actually related to one another genealogically speaking. So you could probably kill a number of half-fiends, tieflings, and depending upon how things went for the reproductive success of such kids go on to eradicate a significant portion of humanoids on a certain plane (imagine eliminating every person descended from, say, Genghis Khan :smalleek:)

Really though, this is the kind of fellow who wants to get nondetected and mindblanked for a couple of centuries while immortal while building up a force of simulcra efreet and solars on an infinitely expanding number of demi-planes that are denied the ability to be scried upon.

Eloel
2010-10-23, 04:09 AM
(imagine eliminating every person descended from, say, Genghis Khan :smalleek:)
Unless I misunderstood, you're calling a historical figure Evil. You shouldn't.

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 04:13 AM
Unless I misunderstood, you're calling a historical figure Evil. You shouldn't.

You very much misunderstood. I was saying using such a spell on a demon would result in killing off all of the half-mortal progeny (well and half-dragon too) it had created and all the descendents from that half-mortal progeny and so on.

Half-fiends being more powerful out of the box than ordinary mortals are better able to rise to positions of power so they can have multiple offspring survive to adulthood as tieflings or quarter-fiends and be successful and have more offspring that are also well off and so on and so forth.

Genghis Khan (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070519131507.htm)was selected as a real-world example of a person with many, many present-day descendants.

More extreme examples would be Y-chromosomal Adam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam)and Mitochondrial Eve. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve)

Back on topic:
Solars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar): bunch of SLAs and cast as 20th level clerics.
Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti): 3 wishes 1/day. Including free Simulacrum and Genesis are the ideas, I believe.
Simulacrum: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) How you get infinite numbers of these guys.

All you need is an interplanar method of communicating when and where to attack to the infinitely replicating horde.

And use genesis with fast-time traits in order to get really ridiculous numbers quickly.

It's even possible at low, low levels!

Core only:
1. Use your ECL 4-5 wealth to buy a CL 15 scroll of simulacrum.
2. Keep making CL checks until you can create an efreeti slave.
3. Use your wishes to:
--a. Plane shift yourself to the Astral Plane.
--b. Get a scroll of genesis with the Fast-Flowing Time trait (1 round on the Prime Material Plane = 100 years on the demiplane).
--c. Get a simulacrum of a solar.
4. Have the solar cast genesis, then plane shift you into your new demiplane (remember, it should be full-sized by the following round, given how fast time moves on that plane).
5. Use the next few days to wish for more and more and more and more efreeti simulacra. Less than 1 round will have passed elsewhere.
6. Profit!

Now you have entire armies of efreet, as well as any other pre-epic creatures you might want.

Non-Core:
1. Take the Precocious Apprentice feat for summon mirror mephit.
2. Summon a mirror mephit.
3. Have it cast its simulacrum Spell-Like Ability.
4. Start pulling off steps 3+ above.

This second one may not work, depending on if its simulacrum ability takes longer to cast than the duration you can get on your summon spell.

Clovis
2010-10-23, 06:12 AM
All the demons? You'd have to cause the Abyss itself to cease to exist.

For imploding an infinite layer of Abyss -- or plane of existence -- would take something like reverse genesis. And you would have to remove all the layers at the same time, otherwise there would be an infinite number of angry demons from the neighbouring layer come knocking on your door, fearing they would be the next. Not to mention evil and/or neutral gods.

Overdeities might also be interested in this kind of event, or even Time Lords, if you mess up with the balance overmuch.

Your best bet could be that you become more powerful than Time Lords, the Old Ones and other high-cosmos nasties.

Dada
2010-10-23, 06:32 AM
As pointed out above, this is a very daunting, if not impossible. As such, anything wishing to undertake it would more or less need to posses the power of plot. Luckily, your bad guy can do just that, since you're the DM.

Ok, what do we need to do then? Well, there are infinite demons - but there can never exist infinite anything, which must mean that demons are really just popping into existence faster than anything can kill them. Something needs to be done about this. Perhaps some artifact or ritual might be able to stop this process. If not, then assuming that the demons can only come into existence in the Abyss, you would need to either destroy the Abyss itself, or somehow make it lethal for demons, making them die as soon as they pop into existence. Basically, mr. DemonHater must find a way to make their numbers change from infinite into something finite.

Next problem - Asmodeus and assorted gods. Needless to say, a lot of very powerful entities would not like the plan of our bad guy. He needs to have some powerful protection or some way to avoid detection by them. Very difficult, if not impossible, considering that many of these powerful forces basically live by outsmarting and knowing more than their enemies.

This can't really be done within the rules as written, unless you use Pun-Pun, so you will need to introduce an explanation of why the bad guy can get away with this yourself.

jmbrown
2010-10-23, 07:32 AM
To eradicate the Abyss you would have to force every mortal creature into a non-evil alignment. After that you play the waiting game.

There are forces, particularly powerful and angry gods, who will turn you into a black crater as soon as your mission gets underway. Unless you're using some homebrewed cosmology, eliminating a plane would probably create a massive black hole and suck everything into it. You'll have every CR 20 to Divine Rank ridiculous creature gunning for you from inevitables to demon-lords to deities because, you know, the balance and everything.

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 07:45 AM
To eradicate the Abyss you would have to force every mortal creature into a non-evil alignment. After that you play the waiting game.

Or, failing that, you manage to work out some sort of string of artifacts to keep souls from making it to the Abyss. I think they have to travel through the Astral plane, so... convincing the Githyanki that it was their idea is an option. And would help deal with most of the problems that could potentially come from dealing with the locals on the astral side.

Artifacts: Did someone order a large plot macguffin?

But, you could very well have your infinite army of solars going around sanctifying the wicked. Which would have the added benefit of causing the world to have a lot more laz0rs.

What to do about neutrals though, to cut down on them slipping? hmmmm... What makes a good man go neutral?

Let's see... whose portfolios would cover plans to wipe out the Abyss? Vecna - Secrets is a given because it's a pretty big secret, who else?

Deities become aware of events depending upon their significance and effect on the portfolio and how strong they are in the portfolio a certain period of time in advance. There are ways to drop off of this radar, IIRC.

Partysan
2010-10-23, 07:56 AM
Simplest and most boring and uninteresting solution is using epic spellcasting to make a spell that kills every demon on every plane, no sr, no save.

Eloel
2010-10-23, 08:08 AM
Simplest and most boring and uninteresting solution is using epic spellcasting to make a spell that kills every demon on every plane, no sr, no save.

You can't do that. Infinite demons = Infinite DC = Infinite mitigation needed.

Tiki Snakes
2010-10-23, 08:12 AM
If you mean how to kill all the Demon's in the Abyss, best way to start is to ask Asmodeus, because he's likely looked into it more than any other being.

If you mean how to kill all the Devil's in Baator, best way to start is to ask Asmodeus, because he's likely looked into it more than any other being. :smallwink:

Eldan
2010-10-23, 08:16 AM
Well.

I'd take the Harmonium approach, actually.

See, just killing all the demons in the Abyss with direct violence? Infeasible and unreasonable.

Cutting off their support? Sure.

You can't kill the demons, but you can seriously weaken or even eradicate them by making sure they get no more souls to make into new Tanar'ri. Conquer all the prime material planes, and all mortal enclaves on all other planes (there's an infinite number of them, most likely), and make sure there's not a single chaotic evil mortal left, without killing any of them.

Ta-daa!

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 08:20 AM
Even with cutting off the supply of souls to the Abyss, there still are the naturally occuring fiend-larva that are collected and twisted into dretch rather than allowed to become the basic form of Obryith(sp)
If you mean how to kill all the Demon's in the Abyss, best way to start is to ask Asmodeus, because he's likely looked into it more than any other being.

If you mean how to kill all the Devil's in Baator, best way to start is to ask Asmodeus, because he's likely looked into it more than any other being. :smallwink:

Ahh, Ask Asmodeus, my favorite show. :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2010-10-23, 08:26 AM
Yes, there are but it's a first step towards sufficiently weakening them. And much easier than killing them off.


Of course, you'd have the problem of the Obyrith coming back in force. but he only wanted to kill demons.

Thrawn183
2010-10-23, 08:27 AM
Make a major artifact. The God Killing Blade. This mortal forged weapon is our only defense against the divine. It and it's wielder are completely undetectable by any deity, through either mundane or magical means.

Hence why the party is both asked to figure out what is going on and to stop it.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-10-23, 08:31 AM
You start by going to GOG.com and buying Painkiller: Black Edition.

The rest should make itself obvious once you install the game.

wizuriel
2010-10-23, 09:14 AM
Unearthed Arcana has rules for giant rituals/incarnations (page 179). Maybe try using those and some kind of holy fireball to destroy the plane?

edit: Or better yet do a giant magic circle against evil trap. Just trap any demons on the abyss in the abyss. Would need to fudge the incarnations a bit to make it effect an infinite area if targeting the abyss (if targeting hell should be able to actually calculate it).

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 09:18 AM
Come to think of it, Mechanus Bot could probably get rid of the Abyss.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-23, 09:18 AM
Unless I misunderstood, you're calling a historical figure Evil. You shouldn't.

Way off. He was calling a historical figure a well-recognized common ancestor to a large modern population.

Merk
2010-10-23, 09:31 AM
Maybe if you really optimize a dungeoncrasher fighter, s/he can physically break the Abyss.

Scarey Nerd
2010-10-23, 09:33 AM
I cast my vote for asking Asmodeus. If anyone knows how to collapse infinite layers of a plane in on itself so that it ceases to be, he probably has the lowdown.

Newt
2010-10-23, 09:34 AM
Make a major artifact. The God Killing Blade. This mortal forged weapon is our only defense against the divine. It and it's wielder are completely undetectable by any deity, through either mundane or magical means.

Hence why the party is both asked to figure out what is going on and to stop it.

Wielded by an Ur Priest :D You know, just for theme.




To eradicate the Abyss you would have to force every mortal creature into a non-evil alignment. After that you play the waiting game.

There are forces, particularly powerful and angry gods, who will turn you into a black crater as soon as your mission gets underway. Unless you're using some homebrewed cosmology, eliminating a plane would probably create a massive black hole and suck everything into it. You'll have every CR 20 to Divine Rank ridiculous creature gunning for you from inevitables to demon-lords to deities because, you know, the balance and everything.

See, there's an easy'ish way around that. You wipe out demons, not devils. The devils would take over the planes, they've been trying to for years. Imagine a great alliance of devils, humans and celestials rallying to take over the abyss. Then partition it off. For infinite amounts of demons (which should be impossible), just destroy the plane. Or if you can't destroy the plane, shut off every known portal, wipe everyones mind that it ever existed. Then let infinite demons kill each other off.

You'd only have to deal with Chaotic and Neutral beings then. Good and Lawful and at least half the Evil beings would be on your side. Pretty sure you could persuade the Neutral beings to let off, given that good will lose forces and you could just open a few portals to a fay realm and increase their population, increasing the amount of chaotic material across the planes. Only the demons would object, and I'm sure a party of demon killers would have no issue with that. :P

Chrono22
2010-10-23, 09:49 AM
IMO, the abyss is a portal into the far realm. It doesn't "bottom out" per se, more like it opens up into a location where space, time, and reality mean nothing.
See, once upon a time (but not our time) there was this race of super powerful beings called Leshay. They had a large number of magical powers and were extraordinarily long lived. These super-elves had a vast empire that dominated the central planes. At one point, these elves became aware of a power source that would allow them to further expand their empire (psionics). Some of them sought out the source of this power, and their explorations allowed them to discover the (non?) existence of the far realm.
Foolishly, the Leshay bore a hole into the far realm, and released a horror of powerful outsiders into the multiverse. Further, the insanity warped the Leshay explorers, turning them into a brain sucking race of telepaths which came to be known as the Illithid. The illithid dismembered the leshay empire and built one of their own upon the ruins. Meanwhile, more and more evil beings poured into the multiverse through the gate, and this imbalance threatened to destroy everything.
In a gamble to save the multiverse, some Leshay enacted a suicidal plan: turn back the clock to a point before the creation of the gate. Their plan succeeded, partially. The Leshay and illithid empires were unmade, and ceased to exist as if they never were.
The gate, however, persisted... because the far realm is a timeless place, the laws of causality don't function there. Abominatons of the far realm can still pass into the multiverse... they just need to transcend through an infinite number of interceding layers to do so. Conversely, a group of powerful beings could attempt to exit the multiverse by descending...

Somewhere(when?) within(out?) the far realm, the other side of the gate persists. If someone was to shut it, the abyss would collapse, ending the threat of the demons against the planes forever.


Edit: the catch here, is that to exit into the far realm, the gate on "this side" would need to be opened. This would cause the infinite layers of the abyss to merge... which would mean all of the demons in the abyss (all untold infinities) to gain access to the outer plains at once.

dgnslyr
2010-10-23, 09:56 AM
Are you trying to be Tholtig? (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Tholtig) If you are, all you need is patience and immortality. :smallamused:

Jack_Simth
2010-10-23, 10:24 AM
Coidzor: Summon Mirror Memphit won't work (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):
it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. Sorry.

Oh yes, and even ignoring that, it still doesn't work, as at any given point, you've got a finite (although arbitrarily large) number of simulacrum critters, that are attempting to kill a number of critters that is defined as infinite.

If you don't mind 'merely' disrupting the balance, you can use an Epic spell plauge-monster; a highly resilient critter that has an Extraordinary Quickened Transform which can turn basically anything into a copy of itself. Possibly make it a rather large area of effect, too, just for grins. Also make sure to add a racial proclivity for using said Ex ability. High DC, but that's not a problem if you permit Epic casting as written (still won't get rid of all the demons/devils, but you can get rid of an arbitrarily large number of them in a very short time this way).

Acero
2010-10-23, 10:34 AM
Wish perhaps?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-23, 10:37 AM
Coidzor: Summon Mirror Memphit won't work (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):Sorry.

Oh yes, and even ignoring that, it still doesn't work, as at any given point, you've got a finite (although arbitrarily large) number of simulacrum critters, that are attempting to kill a number of critters that is defined as infinite.

If you don't mind 'merely' disrupting the balance, you can use an Epic spell plauge-monster; a highly resilient critter that has an Extraordinary Quickened Transform which can turn basically anything into a copy of itself. Possibly make it a rather large area of effect, too, just for grins. Also make sure to add a racial proclivity for using said Ex ability. High DC, but that's not a problem if you permit Epic casting as written (still won't get rid of all the demons/devils, but you can get rid of an arbitrarily large number of them in a very short time this way).
Mirror Mephits get Simulacrum as an SLA, not a spell. SLA's do not require components.


A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

Jack_Simth
2010-10-23, 10:39 AM
Mirror Mephits get Simulacrum as an SLA, not a spell. SLA's do not require components.
Ah, you need an underline emphasis; let me re-quote:
Coidzor: Summon Mirror Memphit won't work (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):
it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. (Emphasis added)

Eldan
2010-10-23, 10:40 AM
Wish perhaps?

If wish did it, any number of outsiders would have done it.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-23, 10:41 AM
(Emphasis added)

Interesting, never looked there before. I'll be the first to admit I didn't read everything you quoted.

Could just have the Mirror Mephit as a familiar.

Eldan
2010-10-23, 10:42 AM
I've always wondered where Mirror Mephits fit in the mephit code...

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 10:43 AM
I've always wondered where Mirror Mephits fit in the mephit code...

Mephit code?


Ah, you need an underline emphasis; let me re-quote:
Coidzor: Summon Mirror Memphit won't work (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning): (Emphasis added)

Whoa, deja vu. :smallconfused:

Did... did we go over this a couple of months ago? :smalleek:

Eldan
2010-10-23, 10:48 AM
Mephit code?


Message system of the lower planes.
Here. (http://mimir.net/mephits/index.html)

Jack_Simth
2010-10-23, 10:51 AM
Interesting, never looked there before. I'll be the first to admit I didn't read everything you quoted.

Could just have the Mirror Mephit as a familiar.
That could work. Of course, it's not on the explicit list, so requires some DM acceptance....

Whoa, deja vu. :smallconfused:

Did... did we go over this a couple of months ago? :smalleek:

Probably. It comes up fairly often when someone considers abusing spell-likes of summons.

Amoren
2010-10-23, 10:52 AM
Unearthed Arcana has rules for giant rituals/incarnations (page 179). Maybe try using those and some kind of holy fireball to destroy the plane?

edit: Or better yet do a giant magic circle against evil trap. Just trap any demons on the abyss in the abyss. Would need to fudge the incarnations a bit to make it effect an infinite area if targeting the abyss (if targeting hell should be able to actually calculate it).

It's a simple fix, he only needs to transcribe a mobius symbol in place of the normal area of effect portion of the scroll/ritual!

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-23, 10:57 AM
That could work. Of course, it's not on the explicit list, so requires some DM acceptance....

I meant through the Improved Familiar feat, which has mephits on it. I suppose it could be argued Mirror Mephits don't count, but that's a little silly when mephits that have a Commune SLA are on the list.

Jack_Simth
2010-10-23, 12:07 PM
I meant through the Improved Familiar feat, which has mephits on it. I suppose it could be argued Mirror Mephits don't count, but that's a little silly when mephits that have a Commune SLA are on the list.
Ah, it has the ice memphit on it, and says that almost anything of a similar size and power can be used.

A critter that can give you a neigh-infinite number of slaves? Not quite a similar power.

Psyren
2010-10-23, 12:11 PM
If wish did it, any number of outsiders would have done it.

They just didn't word it properly and got DM-raped. (or Ao.)

World Eater
2010-10-23, 12:11 PM
"We've killed all the demons!" Said the PCs.
"No." the rest of the multiverse replied,

"YOU ARE THE DEMONS."

Psyren
2010-10-23, 12:12 PM
"We've killed all the demons!" Said the PCs.
"No." the rest of the multiverse replied,

"YOU ARE THE DEMONS."

And then the party was Necropolitans.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 12:13 PM
"We've killed all the demons!" Said the PCs.
"No." the rest of the multiverse replied,

"YOU ARE THE DEMONS."

Hey, that works they killed eery other demon. Do the PCs evolve into demon lords?

Eldan
2010-10-23, 12:14 PM
Really, as per my interpretation of the fluff, killing all demons would just make everything worse.

The Slaad and Eladrin would hate your for making law more powerful in the multiverse. As would the Rilmani, and probably also the Yugoloth and any number of gods of chaos and/or evil.

With the tanar'ri gone, the Obyrith could come back.

There's some indication that at least some layers of the Abyss are sentient entities by themselves.

And finally, as long as people believe in demons, there will be demons.

Psyren
2010-10-23, 12:15 PM
Hey, that works they killed eery other demon. Do the PCs evolve into demon lords?

No, they become zombies. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fanfic/DoomRepercussionsOfEvil)

HalfTangible
2010-10-23, 12:17 PM
Cast Ice 9. Problem solved.

Erith
2010-10-23, 12:25 PM
Metabreath feats from draconomicon. It explicitly says that many can be applied multiple times, and there is no listed limit as to how many can be applied, as far as i can tell. The only drawback is the increase in time between attacks.

Find a few ancient dragons, some that don't mind never using their breath weapons again. Apply:

clinging breath * infinity
enlarge breath * infinity
heighten * your con mod
lingering breath * infinity
maximize breath
spreading breath
split breath

Assuming this all works, everything on the plane must check every round against the breath weapon, unless they planeshift out, twice. Of those that do manage to get out, anyone who took damage even once will continue taking damage until they die. If this does work, stick 1 dragon on as many layers as you can and hope most demons don't save before planeshifting out.

This has the double benefit of preventing new demons from popping up on the affected layers.

Magicyop
2010-10-23, 12:26 PM
Let's build an epic spell!

Seed: Destroy for 20d6 damage. (DC 29)
Permanent Duration so that even high health enemies will eventually die. (x5)
Seed: Transform with the +10 for ability giving, turn them partially into you and give them this Epic Spell. (DC 31)
Seed: Compel to force them to use said Epic Spell. (DC 29)
Change target to area, radius. (+10)

DC 29 + 31 + 29 + 10 x 5 = DC 495



You have now created an epic spell which will destroy an entire plane of existence. The ultimate in extermination. Take Leadership and make it a ritual so it is actually cast-able. Now use this power. Every minute, you destroy a new plane of existence.

How? Well, what this spell basically does is forces you to explode with a short ranged burst of disintegration energy. Each particle of matter or object or creature within this area is transformed into a duplicate of you, which instantly explodes with another blast of disintegration energy, transforming everything near it. Any creature 'infected' will keep blowing up with energy until it is dead. Any continuous plane will be completely destroyed. Plane Shift onward, and cast again.

Eloel
2010-10-23, 12:27 PM
Find a few infinite ancient dragons, some that don't mind never using their breath weapons again.

Infinite layers. Finite dragons won't even cut the force.

Erith
2010-10-23, 12:30 PM
Where do you propose we find infinite dragons? This could work on hell, though.

Eldan
2010-10-23, 12:32 PM
Depends. There's bound to be a few demons/devils immune to pretty much any energy type.

Also, do breath weapons work underwater? On planes with different energy traits?

And finally, they would just come back X rounds later.

Eloel
2010-10-23, 12:37 PM
And finally, they would just come back X rounds later.
They would simply die again. Then again, if they need 2x20s to survive, 1/400 of them will. That is still infinite.

jmbrown
2010-10-23, 12:47 PM
"We've killed all the demons!" Said the PCs.
"No." the rest of the multiverse replied,

"YOU ARE THE DEMONS."

And the PCs said to the multiverse "YOU ARE HUGE!! THAT MEANS YOU HAVE HUGE GUTS!!!"

Eldan
2010-10-23, 01:17 PM
And the PCs said to the multiverse "YOU ARE HUGE!! THAT MEANS YOU HAVE HUGE GUTS!!!"

And Neth said: YOU ARE IN MY GUTS.

Psyren
2010-10-23, 02:25 PM
And the PCs said to the multiverse "YOU ARE HUGE!! THAT MEANS YOU HAVE HUGE GUTS!!!"

Sadly, that was from the official Doom comic, not the Repercussions of Evil fanfic I linked earlier.

Dramatic reading of the Doom Comic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8yc5bnOrSc)
Dramatic reading of RoE Fanfic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1RJevflSmI)

Randel
2010-10-23, 03:06 PM
Hmm, I don't suppose there is a type of spawning undead that can infect demons? Like creating a Super Greater Shadow or something that attacks evil-aligned outsiders?

Or maybe some kind of Mind Seed effect to turn demons into a copy of yourself. The Agent Smith or the Master from the new Doctor Who series.

If there's an infinite number of fiends in the Abyss and you can forcibly convert them into copies of yourself then you can have an exponentially increasing number of yous to fight the battle.

Exponentially multiplying might not be able to beat Infinity but its a start.

Jothki
2010-10-23, 03:21 PM
Well.

I'd take the Harmonium approach, actually.

See, just killing all the demons in the Abyss with direct violence? Infeasible and unreasonable.

Cutting off their support? Sure.

You can't kill the demons, but you can seriously weaken or even eradicate them by making sure they get no more souls to make into new Tanar'ri. Conquer all the prime material planes, and all mortal enclaves on all other planes (there's an infinite number of them, most likely), and make sure there's not a single chaotic evil mortal left, without killing any of them.

Ta-daa!

I'd take the opposite approach. Instead of starving them of souls, figure out a way to redirect other souls, regardless of alignment, to the Abyss. Eventually the plane will become so corrupted that it ceases to be Evil, and there's your problem solved.

Chaotic Evil is a minority, and like all minorities, it's vulnerable to gerrymandering.

Eldan
2010-10-23, 03:28 PM
Which, nicely enough, is also an approach used by the harmonium. :smalltongue:
Just never ask them about what happened to Nemausus.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-23, 03:28 PM
Ah, it has the ice memphit on it, and says that almost anything of a similar size and power can be used.

A critter that can give you a neigh-infinite number of slaves? Not quite a similar power.

I may have been thinking of Planar Familiar.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-23, 03:30 PM
I would simply wait. The Tan'nari are doomed already; the Abyss switches types of demons over time. Obyrith, then Tan'nari, then those freaky ghost things that I find really boring, then whatever comes after that.

All you gotta do it wait. Now if you want to prevent new demons from coming into existence, you have to kill the Abyss and Demogorgon. Killing him is like killing anything else, I assume, but now the Abyss cannot get new layers, and then you have to literally destroy each layer so that the layers cannot spawn new demons.

Billions of years later the Devils conquer heaven and your work is done :D

Myth
2010-10-23, 06:43 PM
Infinite Dragons? No. Infinite Shadow Dragons? Yes.

OR

Drop Anti-Osmium bomb then plane shift, on each layer.

Eldan
2010-10-23, 06:44 PM
Infinite Dragons? No. Infinite Shadow Dragons? Yes.

OR

Drop Anti-Osmium bomb then plane shift, on each layer.

1. How? Also, how long does it take to distribute them to infinite layers?

2. Infinite layers again.

Jack_Simth
2010-10-23, 07:06 PM
1. How? Also, how long does it take to distribute them to infinite layers?Earth Power + Shadowcraft Mage = 100% real dragons with a particular spell, faked. However, it takes an infinite amount of time....

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 08:23 PM
The whole use of the word infinite is probably the most annoying part of D&D cosmology.

Followed by Always.

Eldan
2010-10-23, 08:32 PM
Hmm.

I'm not sure. It is very necessary for the feel and setting of Planescape: if the abyss wasn't infinite, the Harmonium's War of Iron could have brute forced it. You could blow up heaven, or just kill all mortals if you had enough time. For me, infinity is the one thing making sure that belief is a more viable approach than violence, and that everything is possible.

Always, however... always is a word that should never have been written.

jmbrown
2010-10-23, 10:13 PM
Infinity as far as the universe is concerned is a matter of perspective. There is no known end or any possible way to even calculate the end, therefor it's infinite. Whether it's actually true or not depends on how tenacious you are.

I didn't start seeing the word "always" until 3e.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-23, 10:17 PM
1. How? Also, how long does it take to distribute them to infinite layers?

2. Infinite layers again.

There aren't infinite layers. They haven't all been numbered yet, but because they are created they are finite.

Eloel
2010-10-24, 12:14 AM
There aren't infinite layers. They haven't all been numbered yet, but because they are created they are finite.

They're as finite as the RL universe. Sure, there's an end to it. No, you'll never get to it.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-24, 12:16 AM
They're as finite as the RL universe. Sure, there's an end to it. No, you'll never get to it.

QFT! But anyway, in at least one book it refers to Demogorgon as the origin of the layers, so all you have to do is find the rate at which he makes them and multiply it by his lifetime and you win!

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-24, 02:20 AM
They're as finite as the RL universe. Sure, there's an end to it. No, you'll never get to it.

when your immortal with an army of undead i think you have a pretty high chance of eventually getting where you want to go

Skaven
2010-10-24, 02:20 AM
Its not possible.

The Blood war has been going on for untold millenia, with tens of thousands of demons dying in it each day (mostly low leve ones forced to fight by higher level ones) and their numbers are replenished and even expande don each day, as more evil people die in the prime planes and become demons (if powerful) or their food (if they're weaker people)

Even if he somehow did manage some epic spel that managed it (likely not considering all the evil gods + demon lords there) he'd just end up watching and gnashing in frustration as it quickly became replenished with more demons as more evil people on all the infinite planes died and found themselves there again forcing repeat after repeat after repeat until he died of old age and probably ended up there himself.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-24, 02:30 AM
until he died of old age and probably ended up there himself.

ending up where? the Epic spell EXPLODES the plane leaving nothing left and their numbers aren't infinite just so ungodly high that WOTC didn't want to actually come up with a number for it. it isnt feasible for anything to be literally infinite in any real sense (even magic so you cant use that to handwave)

Eldan
2010-10-24, 08:04 AM
QFT! But anyway, in at least one book it refers to Demogorgon as the origin of the layers, so all you have to do is find the rate at which he makes them and multiply it by his lifetime and you win!

... really? That sounds just silly compared to all the fluff I know. Because I know at least one source saying that the layers themselves might be intelligent and make the demon lords by choosing them. These two things just don't work together, and since I think intelligent layers are much cooler, I'll go with that.

Now, to all you people exploding the plane I repeat my words from earlier: you have two massive problems.
a) More souls of chaotic evil people die every day, and they have to go somewhere. If you destroy the abyss, something new and equally horrible will fill it's place.
b) People believe that there are demons, so there will be demons. Blow up as many as you like, as long as people think there are chaotic evil supernatural monstrosities out there, they are there.

Coidzor
2010-10-24, 08:20 AM
having an infinitely expanding network of proxies/minions exploding an exponentially and infinitely expanding layers of the abyss would put a serious crimp in the days of those involved, on the other hand.

and probably distract everyone from when you awaken Mechanus bot and begin the ending of the great wheel cosmology.

Of course, if you believe that the Abyss is essential to the existence of everything else in the multiverse because of...oh...um...well...er... it exists in the first place... Then there are FAR EASIER TARGETS to get rid of that would also get rid of the Abyss and everything else.

Mechanus has only one level, after all. as do the Outlands.

celestia has 7. Baator has 9, although, granted, ONE OF THEM IS ASMODEUS...

I believe most of the others fall in the one, 2, 3, and 5 layer categories.

and who knows, after destroying the multiverse if you played your cards right you might get to be Lord Ao.

And everyone knows how much fun he's having.

shadow_archmagi
2010-10-24, 08:28 AM
Decanter of endless holy water?

Eldan
2010-10-24, 08:34 AM
Hmm. Close...

Ring Gates from Lunia to the plane of infinite portals? Just assume that the water can trickle down into the lower layers through the pits.

Killer Angel
2010-10-24, 08:38 AM
First of all, you must convince your DM that is a feasible task... :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-24, 09:32 AM
QFT! But anyway, in at least one book it refers to Demogorgon as the origin of the layers, so all you have to do is find the rate at which he makes them and multiply it by his lifetime and you win!

Bah, I've killed him in Buldar's Gate 2. So he must have reformed (and yes, they state it wasn't an avatar but really him stopped there)

Myth
2010-10-24, 11:16 AM
Bah, I've killed him in Buldar's Gate 2. So he must have reformed (and yes, they state it wasn't an avatar but really him stopped there)

Demogorgon can't have avatars of himself, Avatar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#avatar) is a Salient Divine Ability requiring at least 6 Divine Ranks. So care to elaborate who "they" are and where it was stated?

Also, Baldur's Gate II is not entirely canon. I ascended as a good deity after completing the game, was my character made in to a God for the Realms?

Starbuck_II
2010-10-24, 11:18 AM
Demogorgon can't have avatars of himself, Avatar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#avatar) is a Salient Divine Ability requiring at least 6 Divine Ranks. So care to elaborate who "they" are and where it was stated?

Exactly, they agreed.
Who they are? They are the ones who killed kenny.


Also, Baldur's Gate II is not entirely canon. I ascended as a good deity after completing the game, was my character made in to a God for the Realms?

There are a lot of gods: so maybe you did. A lesser known one.

Psyren
2010-10-24, 11:26 AM
Demogorgon can't have avatars of himself, Avatar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#avatar) is a Salient Divine Ability requiring at least 6 Divine Ranks. So care to elaborate who "they" are and where it was stated?

Not avatars, no - but Archdevils and Archdemons can have Aspects, which are functionally the same thing and require no divine ranks. (See FC1 and FC2.)

Amiel
2010-10-25, 12:53 AM
A kobold is able to do just that; as per the official 3.5e rules, Kurtulmak, the accumulated divinity of kobolds, is free to organise a bloody rebellion at any time that results in the secession of the throne of Hell to him.

Since he is divine, neither pit fiends nor the Lords of the Nine are capable of any retaliation; well they are, but their piddling efforts matter little.

Newt
2010-10-25, 02:11 AM
Now, to all you people exploding the plane I repeat my words from earlier: you have two massive problems.
a) More souls of chaotic evil people die every day, and they have to go somewhere. If you destroy the abyss, something new and equally horrible will fill it's place.
b) People believe that there are demons, so there will be demons. Blow up as many as you like, as long as people think there are chaotic evil supernatural monstrosities out there, they are there.


A:

The person wants to get rid of Demons, the prevailing view is that taking out the Abyss would do that.
Now, there's a setting, I'm not sure which, which states characters have to have a patron deity or their souls end up in the "fugue" or some such. Not usable in all settings of course, but just because CE people die, doesn't mean they have to become Demons.

One way we have of doing that would be opening a (ONE WAY!!) portal to the Far Realms and setting it up so all CE souls go there to be eaten by the primordial horrors that dwell within. Most books that I've read, if not all, say that the creatures in the Far Realms dwarf the Demons for evil and are practically on a Cthuhlu scale, so you could possibly open a few portals from the Far Realms into the Abyss and sit back and watch the fun. Would make a good epic level adventure having to shut down the portals. Could throw in horror elements, "friendly" Demon lords, Celestials. Be entertaining.


B:

A few high level psions could take care of that. But since I'm not sure about epic psionics and most people avoid psions anyway, go.. Enchanter? Whatever allows you to mindwipe people. Make it an AoE that can affect a large amount of HD and make it a ritual spell to increase HD without increasing difficulty too much. Clone yourself, spread across the world, cast. Plane shift. Repeat as needed. Wouldn't take long before no-one believes in Demons. CE creatures yes, but not demons. Taking out CE all together may prove a bit more difficult..

nolispe
2010-10-25, 02:27 AM
Sorry, what was the Harmonium?

Eldan
2010-10-25, 03:46 AM
Sorry, what was the Harmonium?

A part of the Planescape campaign setting, therefore part of the great wheel and, in theory, every other setting in existence.

They are one of fifteen factions allowed into Sigil and unique among them that they originated on the prime material plane.

A long time ago (it varies between sources, I think) four lawful adventurers conquered the plane of Ortho in the name of law and (to a lesser extent) goodness and established a world government aiming at providing the greatest possible good for the greatest amount of people. They got a little fanatical from time to time, such as when they wiped out the elves and fey courts for being too chaotic, but overall, they are, while strict and controlling, intent on doing the best they can. They have united most of the good and lawful races, including their worlds major lawful evil ones, Hobgoblins and Beholders, into a working world state, where chaotic or evil behaviour are harshly prosecuted.
When they found out about the existence of the outer planes, they launched an expedition, first to Arcadia, then, once they had the lay of the land, a crusade against the Abyss, sending all their world's armies against the demons. Of course, compared to the bloodwar, another world of mortals barely made a dent in the demons forces, and the Harmonium never really recovered from the losses.
Still, currently they are recruiting in Sigil and the outer planes, and are among the fastest spreading factions.
"The Harmonium: Our way or no way."

Amiel
2010-10-25, 04:11 AM
A part of the Planescape campaign setting, therefore part of the great wheel and, in theory, every other setting in existence.

They are one of fifteen factions allowed into Sigil and unique among them that they originated on the prime material plane.
>Other good stuff<


Speaking of the Harmonium; their accumulated belief in (the) righteous right of way, strict authoritarianism, and peace and stability through force actually caused a piece of Arcadia (Nemausus) to fall into Mechanus; thanks to "the Harmonium forgetting to love the sinner despite the sin".

Newt
2010-10-26, 04:52 AM
A kobold is able to do just that; as per the official 3.5e rules, Kurtulmak, the accumulated divinity of kobolds, is free to organise a bloody rebellion at any time that results in the secession of the throne of Hell to him.


A part of the Planescape campaign setting, therefore part of the great wheel and, in theory, every other setting in existence.

They are one of fifteen factions allowed into Sigil and unique among them that they originated on the prime material plane.

...

Of course, compared to the bloodwar, another world of mortals barely made a dent in the demons forces, and the Harmonium never really recovered from the losses.
Still, currently they are recruiting in Sigil and the outer planes, and are among the fastest spreading factions.
"The Harmonium: Our way or no way."

Where did each of you get that from? Appears to be gaps in my knowledge that I must remedy. Please and thanks

Eldan
2010-10-26, 04:54 AM
No idea on the kobolds, but the Harmonium is from the AD&D setting Planescape, which was an attempt to unify all D&D settings made up to that point into a single metasetting. It's mostly set in the outer planes. There's pretty much no 3.X material around, but the Manual of the Planes and Planar Handbook are watered down versions, managing to describe some of the locations while transporting just about none of the concepts. There are numerous fan sites out there.
The War of Iron I couldn't really tell you, but most likely it was in the Factol's Manifesto. Planewalker (www.planewalker.com), to my knowledge the biggest fan site, has a pretty large Ortho Project, which attempted to write up the Harmonium homeworld.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 05:35 AM
Speaking of the Harmonium; their accumulated belief in (the) righteous right of way, strict authoritarianism, and peace and stability through force actually caused a piece of Arcadia (Nemausus) to fall into Mechanus; thanks to "the Harmonium forgetting to love the sinner despite the sin".

So the posterchidren for being such paladins that they inevitably fall to evil in their zeal against evil, then?

Eldan
2010-10-26, 05:41 AM
They haven't fallen to evil, yet. But many of them move to lawful neutral from lawful good. Of course, they didn't really start out as lawful good in the first place. Too much authority, peace through strength, strict hierarchy and so on, not enough Love Thy Neighbour.

And they fight chaos just as much, if not more, than evil. They tend to work together with moderate lawful evil against chaotics.

Nemausus was pretty much their darkest hour, though. They tried to establish what were basically concentration camps on Arcadia, to retrain people to lawfulness and goodness. Which only managed to bring enough evil types to Arcadia to make part of it fall down to LN.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 05:54 AM
So... that's a yes then. Godwin's lawing yourself is... pretty bad.

Zen Master
2010-10-26, 07:55 AM
While realising it'd take a while - I'd do it with a dagger. Personal. Up close. Walk up to them, look them straight in the eye, say 'DIE!' and stab them in the heart.

Long term project. Takes dedication. But over time, you get to level an awful lot of times.

Eldan
2010-10-26, 07:58 AM
So... that's a yes then. Godwin's lawing yourself is... pretty bad.

As I said, not really. They aren't really paladins, for that, they'd have to at least start out lawful good. They are much more lawful neutral with certain good tendencies. They have the greater good in mind, but are very strict and close-minded about it. Their nickname is "Hardheads".

Newt
2010-10-28, 06:57 AM
Thanks Eldan, I now have 30+ books to read and enjoy. Planescape is big. :smalleek:

On topic, in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, there's a line which goes "Infinite Size: The Abyss goes on forever in the form of an infinite amount of layers, although it's well known realms are bounded."

I've still no idea how Planescape phrased it, but does that mean known planes are bounded, and the ones that aren't, are infinite in size?

It's easy enough to make immortal characters. 25 levels of monk involving the base class and a prestige class get you that. Actually going for it shouldn't be too hard, so if the above is true, making a group of explorers go from plane to plane mapping it out and slaying demons/stealing treasure/making fun of demon lords would make more and more planes bounded. Then you can go along with your epic wizard spell and destroy the plane, ignoring DC for targeting inhabitants. Wouldn't destroy all of the Abyss, but after a few billion Demons you let the devils do the work for "teh lulz". Since the scale in the Blood War would rapidly slide towards the Devils in power. And since the Devils would make sure every Demon was dead, the person would no longer have to worry about it. Merely join in and get handsomely rewarded by the Devil lords for helping them out so.

Eldan
2010-10-28, 07:03 AM
Thanks Eldan, I now have 30+ books to read and enjoy. Planescape is big. :smalleek:


You won't regret it. It's awesome and has the best art I've so far seen in D&D. My favourite books are Faces of Sigil and the Monstrous Appendices.