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Serpentine
2010-10-23, 08:33 AM
I'm thinking of adding a houserule to my collection, but want it critiqued first..

So, my premises: Level Adjustment is generally considered overestimated; one point of LA is considered equivalent to a class level, but rarely offers anything close to the same amount of value.
NPC class levels are considered, if I recall correctly, approximately half a PC class - or, at the very least, less than a PC class.

So, my proposal is, for a character to take an NPC class for every point of Level Adjustment, and consider them square for the purposes of ECL.
For example, someone want to play a hobgoblin (+1LA) Fighter in a level 5 game. Normally, they would have 4 levels of Fighter, plus 1 LA for an Effective Character Level of 5.
Under this rule, the same character would have 4 levels of Fighter and 1 of Warrior (or, 1/2 a class level in Warrior, 1/2 a class level to LA), for an ECL of 5.
Another example: someone wants to play a fire giant (+4LA) Cleric in the same level 5 game. They would normally have 1 level of Cleric, plus 4 LA for an ECL of 5. In this rule, they would have 1 level of cleric and 4 levels of Adept.

While I'm at it, what effect would making Catfolk Small size have with regard to their Level Adjustment - specifically, would it be enough to make it 0? What if I also took away the +1 natural armour? And/or gave a -2 Strength or similar?

Seracain
2010-10-23, 08:52 AM
So in a nutshell the price for LA is getting no class features, just basic levels. HP, Skills and Saves.

Except adepts who get spells and a familiar, but since the adept levels don't stack with other divine spell-casting classes, that is likely not a problem. One thing to consider though, is whether a person can use their adept class features for prc entry. This might allow loop holes or unforeseen problems, although I can't think of any such issues atm.

Overall, seems good to me, and I'd say the only real LA's unbalanced by this are the select few already unbalanced.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-23, 08:56 AM
I rather like it.
Wonder why no designer considered it.

PersonMan
2010-10-23, 08:58 AM
I like it. I just gave a tiny hit die, BAB and skill boost, but this works better, actually.

Accersitus
2010-10-23, 09:09 AM
I have to voice my support for this too, I really like this change and will propose
using them in the group I play in too :D

Serpentine
2010-10-23, 09:16 AM
Excellent. 100% of people surveyed like it :smallbiggrin:

Seracain
2010-10-23, 09:27 AM
Oh and in regards to the catfolk question. I’d start by removing the +1 Natural armour, as that would offset the +1 size modifier to ac.

That leaves a very nimble and fast race. They get a total of +6 to hide from dex and size, + 3 ac from dex and size and are fast at 40ft. Great for rogues, archers/throwers and sorcerers, which is perhaps just a tad good for 0 LA race. Of those types, only throwers would really feel the -2 str. A wis penalty would seem good to me, as curiosity killed the cat, and it's a penalty for all those adventure types without removing the race’s usefulness for them.

So in summation, remove the natural armour, and add a -2 wis penalty. All in my opinion.

Serpentine
2010-10-23, 09:43 AM
The problem with the Wisdom penalty is that cats should have very good senses. On the other hand, maybe just a bonus to Spot and Listen/Perception could fix that. I also had these:

• Distraction: Catfolk are easily distracted. They take a -2 penalty to Concentration checks
• Aquaphobic: Catfolk hate water. When wet, or at risk of becoming wet, they take a -1 morale penalty. To enter a body of water deeper than 2ft, they must make a DC12 Will save. Once in, they must do another DC 14 Will save every minute or struggle to exit.

In fact, I'll just post the whole thing I had, even though I don't really like it:

Catfolk
Players may use this variant, or the original version.
• +4 Dexterity, +2 Charisma
• Humanoid (Feline)
• Size: Small. As a Small creature, a Catfolk gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are Ύ of those of a Medium character.
• Catfolk base land speed is 30 feet.
• Low-Light Vision (Ex): Catfolk can see twice as far as a human can in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions
• Natural Weapons: Catfolk have two primary claw attacks, each with a damage value of 1d4. When not wearing foot protection, a Catfolk may add a secondary kick attack that deals 1d3 lethal damage.
• Feline Balance (Ex): Catfolk have an innate ability to stay balanced on their feet. They gain +2 on Balance checks and always land on their feet if jumping or falling, but they still take any applicable damage.
• +2 racial bonus to Perception and Stealth.
• Distraction: Catfolk are easily distracted. They take a -2 penalty to Concentration checks
• Aquaphobic: Catfolk hate water. When wet, or at risk of becoming wet, they take a -1 morale penalty. To enter a body of water deeper than 2ft, they must make a DC12 Will save. Once in, they must do another DC 14 Will save every minute or struggle to exit.
• Automatic Languages: Feline and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Orc, Gnome, Halfling. Catfolk find it useful to learn the languages of their friends and enemies, namely the five most common races.
• Favored Class: Ranger

Shpadoinkle
2010-10-23, 09:50 AM
So, my proposal is, for a character to take an NPC class for every point of Level Adjustment, and consider them square for the purposes of ECL.
For example, someone want to play a hobgoblin (+1LA) Fighter in a level 5 game. Normally, they would have 4 levels of Fighter, plus 1 LA for an Effective Character Level of 5.
Under this rule, the same character would have 4 levels of Fighter and 1 of Warrior (or, 1/2 a class level in Warrior, 1/2 a class level to LA), for an ECL of 5.


That's... a really clever idea. The whole LA thing never really sat right with me. I normally use the LA buyoff option, but I think I'll be implementing this as an alternative.

Seracain
2010-10-23, 09:58 AM
True, I'd bump perception to +4 , give -2 wis and I'd remove the distraction and aquaphobia.

A cat on the hunt is very focused, as opposed to when they are playful and flit attention about. I'd also personally leave water as a role-play thing for players rather than a actual racial mod. But then I personally prefer not to have direct ropeplay elements in any race setups, even if all my dwarf characters drink heavily... :smallbiggrin:

Other than that, I personally think that's fine as a LA +0 race.

Edit: Also would you mind if I stole your catfolk version, they would fit perfectly as new race in an upcoming session of mine.

mucat
2010-10-23, 10:55 AM
Like everyone else surveyed, I like your NPC class idea. One thing to think about though: it makes the "LA hurts casters more than martial types" thing even more true than before. Martial or skillmonkey PC classes syngergize with Warrior or Expert, much better than caster PC classes synergize with Adept.


While I'm at it, what effect would making Catfolk Small size have with regard to their Level Adjustment - specifically, would it be enough to make it 0? What if I also took away the +1 natural armour? And/or gave a -2 Strength or similar?

Isn't small size usually considered a selling point for a race, rather than a disadvantage? The only real disadvantages that often come with small size are a strength penalty and a reduced move, both of which your small catfolk escape!



Catfolk
Players may use this variant, or the original version.
• +4 Dexterity, +2 Charisma
• Humanoid (Feline)
• Size: Small. As a Small creature, a Catfolk gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are Ύ of those of a Medium character.
• Catfolk base land speed is 30 feet.
• Low-Light Vision (Ex): Catfolk can see twice as far as a human can in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions
• Natural Weapons: Catfolk have two primary claw attacks, each with a damage value of 1d4. When not wearing foot protection, a Catfolk may add a secondary kick attack that deals 1d3 lethal damage.
• Feline Balance (Ex): Catfolk have an innate ability to stay balanced on their feet. They gain +2 on Balance checks and always land on their feet if jumping or falling, but they still take any applicable damage.
• +2 racial bonus to Perception and Stealth.
• Distraction: Catfolk are easily distracted. They take a -2 penalty to Concentration checks
• Aquaphobic: Catfolk hate water. When wet, or at risk of becoming wet, they take a -1 morale penalty. To enter a body of water deeper than 2ft, they must make a DC12 Will save. Once in, they must make another DC 14 Will save every minute or struggle to exit.
• Automatic Languages: Feline and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Orc, Gnome, Halfling. Catfolk find it useful to learn the languages of their friends and enemies, namely the five most common races.
• Favored Class: Ranger

To me, this definitely looks like an LA+1 race. A net ability bonus of +6 pretty much rules out LA+0, unless it comes with extreme disadvantages...and the only real downside of this race is the Aquaphobia, which is both cool and flavorful, but too situational to really affect the LA.

Another way of looking at it: compare them point-by-point to halflings, the most similar core race...these catfolk would have a definite edge.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-23, 11:06 AM
One thing to think about though: it makes the "LA hurts casters more than martial types" thing even more true than before. Martial or skillmonkey PC classes syngergize with Warrior or Expert, much better than caster PC classes synergize with Adept.
This is a good thing. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-10-23, 11:07 AM
I rather like it.
Wonder why no designer considered it.Well, they had RHD, which is pretty much the same thing.

I'm not sure how well adept levels work on this, though. The other NPC classes progress saves, skills, BAB and so forth just like the class you tag 'em on to, but adepts have a separate casting progression (and a familiar).


As a last note, down with the oppression of goblinoids! Hobgoblins for +0 LA! Blues for +0 LA! Bugbears with less RHD!

Serpentine
2010-10-23, 11:08 AM
Okay, for the Catfolk I'm thinking: Small size; +2 Dex, -2 Wis; +4 Perception (/spot & listen); +2 Balance & Stealth (/hide & move silently); low-light vision; 30ft speed; 1d4 claw damage; and, mostly cuz someone said they like it, Aquaphobia, for +0 LA. That sound okay?

grarrrg
2010-10-23, 11:12 AM
Like everyone else surveyed, I like your NPC class idea. One thing to think about though: it makes the "LA hurts casters more than martial types" thing even more true than before. Martial or skillmonkey PC classes syngergize with Warrior or Expert, much better than caster PC classes synergize with Adept.

And since when is nerfing the casters a bad thing?

Yes, ideally LA should be an option for every class. But the problems are too big and too deep for any one 'quick fix'. And the only 'good/complete' fixes are too close to homebrew, rather than just a 'houserule'.

As far as it goes, I like it.

mucat
2010-10-23, 11:19 AM
Okay, for the Catfolk I'm thinking: Small size; +2 Dex, -2 Wis; +4 Perception (/spot & listen); +2 Balance & Stealth (/hide & move silently); low-light vision; 30ft speed; 1d4 claw damage; and, mostly cuz someone said they like it, Aquaphobia, for +0 LA. That sound okay?
Looks good to me.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-10-23, 11:24 AM
Another example: someone wants to play a fire giant (+4LA) Cleric in the same level 5 game. They would normally have 1 level of Cleric, plus 4 LA for an ECL of 5. In this rule, they would have 1 level of cleric and 4 levels of Adept.


Don't fire giants have a ton of racial HD? I'd think the ECL would be much higher than 5 to start with...

Also, why not just get rid of the hobgoblin's LA? They seriously get nothing but a bonus to Move Silently, Darkvision, and +2 DEX and CON. That's fewer goodies than a dwarf gets, really.

Shpadoinkle
2010-10-23, 12:04 PM
Don't fire giants have a ton of racial HD? I'd think the ECL would be much higher than 5 to start with...

Also, why not just get rid of the hobgoblin's LA? They seriously get nothing but a bonus to Move Silently, Darkvision, and +2 DEX and CON. That's fewer goodies than a dwarf gets, really.

It's a pretty well-known fact that WotC has no idea how people actually play their games (they assumed healbot clerics, blasty wizards, etc.) For crap's sake, they genuinely thought that a +2 to Strength was worth -2 Charisma AND -2 Intelligence to make it balanced.

Eloel
2010-10-23, 12:34 PM
How about making it optional to get RHD too? So, instead of, say, Outsider HD, you could get Adept levels? Or would that be too unbalancing?

(I can see a high LA/RHD character that buys all into adept, and progresses with PrCs...)

Marnath
2010-10-23, 07:04 PM
How about making it optional to get RHD too? So, instead of, say, Outsider HD, you could get Adept levels? Or would that be too unbalancing?

(I can see a high LA/RHD character that buys all into adept, and progresses with PrCs...)

It's a sloppy fix, but sometimes I treat RHD as bonus hp dice rolls. No BAB, skills or HD, but then your ECL is more in line with the other PC's.

awa
2010-10-23, 07:09 PM
I agree for the most part but beware some creatures/templates are priced appropriately and others are to powerful feral and half minotaur im looking at you

Mando Knight
2010-10-23, 08:09 PM
So, instead of, say, Outsider HD, you could get Adept levels? Or would that be too unbalancing?

Outsider HD is one of the good ones. Full BAB, all good saves, d8 HD, and a massive number of skills? Pretty good deal, much better than most... in fact, only the Dragon HD can claim to be as good (trade 2 skills/level for d12 HD). It's the LA that's holding most Outsider races back, not their RHD. Except for class-based spellcasting, where Adept levels won't help anyway unless they're made to stack with another caster class.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-23, 10:18 PM
I rather like it.
Wonder why no designer considered it.

Its elegant, I like it. Note that its signifigantly better for melee, as bab progression won't suffer, but casters invariably have a big tradeoff.

Edit: you can minimize this with a MT build with adept, I suppose, but mt isn't great anyhow, and you still have a weaker spell list. Probably still inferior to urpriest mt.

Serpentine
2010-10-24, 09:29 PM
Don't fire giants have a ton of racial HD? I'd think the ECL would be much higher than 5 to start with...

Also, why not just get rid of the hobgoblin's LA? They seriously get nothing but a bonus to Move Silently, Darkvision, and +2 DEX and CON. That's fewer goodies than a dwarf gets, really.Forgot about racial HD. I'll probably just leave that as-is, contributing to ECL.
For the second, hobgoblin was just an example. I do usually try to eliminate LA, but it's not always possible, or a player wants the original version. This is for when I can't or won't do it.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-24, 09:34 PM
3.9, here we come!

Actually, someone should really make an archive of all of the useful houserule fixes people have made, taken as a whole they probably make the game balanced.

Serpentine
2010-10-25, 10:51 AM
So, conclusions: the last catfolk version appears satisfactory, and the LA houserule should work in all but a few cases which it won't completely break anyway. Right?