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View Full Version : Two variants that replace the same feature, yes or no?



Hironomus
2010-10-23, 09:22 AM
I am going to begin dming for the first time soon.
one of my players wants to make an ultimate magus and is starting with 1 level of sorceror.
He doesn't want a familiar so he wants to take the metamagic specialist variant level (PHBII).
when he takes a level of wizard he wants to take the Wizard of Sun and Moon variant level (Dungeonscape).
This second varient level also replaces a familiar.
so my question is can he take both varient levels given that he would not have recieved the second familiar if he had kept the first?
i can't see a flavour reason to disallow it, so unless someone points out some glaring reason not to i will allow it.

awa
2010-10-23, 09:30 AM
your giving up class features from two separate classes so im pretty sure its allowed.

Magikeeper
2010-10-23, 09:30 AM
I am going to begin dming for the first time soon.
one of my players wants to make an ultimate magus and is starting with 1 level of sorceror.
He doesn't want a familiar so he wants to take the metamagic specialist variant level (PHBII).
when he takes a level of wizard he wants to take the Wizard of Sun and Moon variant level (Dungeonscape).
This second varient level also replaces a familiar.
so my question is can he take both varient levels given that he would not have recieved the second familiar if he had kept the first?
i can't see a flavour reason to disallow it, so unless someone points out some glaring reason not to i will allow it.

Well, what if he had not taken WoSaM? He'd have a familiar and MSV. So he is still giving up a familiar. I don't see a mechanical reason to not allow it.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-23, 09:31 AM
No. You can't trade away a class feature for two class features, because once you give it up the first time, you don't have it to trade. That's like saying he can get an extra feat every third level because he trades his empty 3rd-level feat slot for two feats at the same time.
You can sometimes trade an ACF for another ACF - I.e., trading Druid's Wildshape for the Barbarian Rage ACF (Druidic Avenger), then trading Rage for Berzerker Strength (a Barbarian ACF that replaces Rage, but that's it.

EDIT: Misread. If he's getting two familiars from two different class progressions, I think it is legal.

kryan
2010-10-23, 09:35 AM
As long as you have the feature to trade in, you may. Since he gets a Familiar twice, he's free to trade away one or both, so long as each is a valid trade.

He couldn't get two ACFs if he only had one familiar, of course. Metamagic Specialist is a pretty good ACF, but Wizard of Sun and Moon's rather meh; there are much better things he could be doing with that, so you don't really need to worry about power levels, methinks.

Seracain
2010-10-23, 09:39 AM
A sorcerer/wizard multiclass would normally have two familiars. He is trading his sorcerer familiar for metamagic specialist and his second wizard familiar for Sun and Moon variant. This is all within the rules. Note though, he could not trade for two sorcerer variants or two wizard variants, as the two familiars are set to their respective classes.

Hironomus
2010-10-23, 09:50 AM
A sorcerer/wizard multiclass would normally have two familiars. He is trading his sorcerer familiar for metamagic specialist and his second wizard familiar for Sun and Moon variant. This is all within the rules. Note though, he could not trade for two sorcerer variants or two wizard variants, as the two familiars are set to their respective classes.

I was under the impression that wasn't the case.

I just thought I would ask first.

Thanks for the advice! Wish me luck with my first campaign.

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 09:53 AM
2 classes, 2 ACFs. Cut and dried.

Now, substitution levels in a variant class that has already traded away what would be lost on those substitution levels on the other hand...

Seracain
2010-10-23, 10:03 AM
I was under the impression that wasn't the case.

I just thought I would ask first.

Thanks for the advice! Wish me luck with my first campaign.

Have fun! :smallbiggrin:

grarrrg
2010-10-23, 11:22 AM
A sorcerer/wizard multiclass would normally have two familiars.

Not quite. A Sorc/Wiz would have two Familiar 'progressions'
Going from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm):

The Familiar entry under Sorcerer:
"A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time."

Under the Familiar section farther down the page:
"Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level."

Normally, he would have 2 seperate, but stacking Familiar progressions.
He trades away all of his Sorc progression for ACF#1
and trades away all of his Wiz progression for ACF#2

There should be no problem doing what he wants to do.

kryan
2010-10-23, 03:52 PM
If he trades away the first Familiar progression (say, the Wizard one), then when he takes the second class (Sorcerer, in this case), he doesn't have another class that grants a Familiar.

grarrrg
2010-10-23, 04:43 PM
If he trades away the first Familiar progression (say, the Wizard one), then when he takes the second class (Sorcerer, in this case), he doesn't have another class that grants a Familiar.

?
I think I know what you mean, but your choice of words leaves it fairly ambiguous.

Let's use an example, so everyone can know exactally what the heck we're trying to/have established.
Name: Casty McSpelldude
Level: 3 Wizard / 5 Sorc
Assuming he kept all Familiar related abilities, Casty would have a level (ecl) 8 Familiar, 3 of those levels from Wizard, 5 from Sorc.

But, let's say that at level 1 when Casty took a level of Wizard, he traded in all current and future Familiar progression from Wizard levels in exchange for ACF#1. Casty's Familiar would now be (ecl) 5.

But but, let's say that when Casty took his first level of Sorc that he traded in that class's current and future Familiar progression for ACF#2
Now Casty has no Familiar (he sort of technically would have a Familiar Level of 0, which, end result, is the same as no Familiar).

Any questions?

Lans
2010-10-23, 06:54 PM
I think RAW the wording on some of the varients and ACFs leave room for getting two abilities off of one. I think thats up there with monks not being proficient in UAS though.

teslas
2010-10-23, 07:11 PM
There's another possibility where this could come up. I've personally ruled along with my friend and long-time DM that we do not allow such things.

Situation:

A wizard who wants some sort of variant gives up his familiar class feature for something like rapid summoning.

What if he takes the Obtain Familiar feat at level 1? Does he still get a familiar? Is it ok to lose a class feature for an ACF and then just take a feat to regain it? Obtain Familiar is one of those "could be broken as hell or very weak" feats, so this is is a gray area.

Worse yet, say he then wants to replace his familiar with another ACF, say the INT MOD times a day short teleport thing.

Now he's got two ACF's from two ways of obtaining a familiar but only one class that grants it.

Also, there is text in a lot of the Unearthed Arcana variants that says, "A conjurer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar." It depends how you want to interpret permanently. We take it very literally.

edit: formatting
Source: UA p. 60 under Rapid Summoning Variant

grarrrg
2010-10-23, 08:12 PM
What if he takes the Obtain Familiar feat at level 1? Does he still get a familiar? Is it ok to lose a class feature for an ACF and then just take a feat to regain it? Obtain Familiar is one of those "could be broken as hell or very weak" feats, so this is is a gray area.

This is probably ok, but like you said, gray area. Maybe it depends on how "feat-ish" the ACF is?


Worse yet, say he then wants to replace his familiar with another ACF...Now he's got two ACF's from two ways of obtaining a familiar...

This would get such a frowny face.

Coidzor
2010-10-23, 08:18 PM
There's another possibility where this could come up. I've personally ruled along with my friend and long-time DM that we do not allow such things.

Situation:

A wizard who wants some sort of variant gives up his familiar class feature for something like rapid summoning.

What if he takes the Obtain Familiar feat at level 1? Does he still get a familiar? Is it ok to lose a class feature for an ACF and then just take a feat to regain it? Obtain Familiar is one of those "could be broken as hell or very weak" feats, so this is is a gray area.

Yes. It's not like he took the forlorn flaw that prevents him from EVER getting a familiar. Why is this even a question? :smallconfused:

You're paying the cost for the feat, after all, so you can't use the feat for something else, and the feat familiar is only useful to someone planning on multiclassing or a character that's going to go high enough to PrC in which case, why care? It's not like there's any reason to take wizard 20.


Worse yet, say he then wants to replace his familiar with another ACF, say the INT MOD times a day short teleport thing. How is this bad? I mean, other than the fact that he's asking for something outside of the rules. Without houseruling, one can't trade a FEAT for an ACF. (unless it's, y'know, trading the option of taking a bonus feat at a level in exchange for an ACF, like Dungeoncrasher)


Also, there is text in a lot of the Unearthed Arcana variants that says, "A conjurer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar." It depends how you want to interpret permanently. We take it very literally.

Variant was written before the feat was written and clearly refers to the class feature. Everything else requires houseruling as does integrating most UA material with later sources.

kryan
2010-10-23, 09:20 PM
Also, the only problem with any of this would be the fact that Abrupt Jaunt is OP, no matter how you get it. Replacing the Familiar gained from Obtain Familiar with any other alternate class feature (that I can think of) is probably balanced; Abrupt Jaunt is the only one that's too good.

Obtain Familiar and the Forlorn flaw show that a Familiar is about as good as a feat. ACFs for Familiars should be about as good as a Familiar should be about as good as a feat, thus spending a feat to get any of the Familiar ACFs should be balanced.

With the exception of Abrupt Jaunt, as far as I can think of off the top of my head, this is true.

The solution? Just ban Abrupt Jaunt.

teslas
2010-10-23, 10:24 PM
Sorry if we're spinning this thread off-kelter a bit.


How is this bad? I mean, other than the fact that he's asking for something outside of the rules. Without houseruling, one can't trade a FEAT for an ACF. (unless it's, y'know, trading the option of taking a bonus feat at a level in exchange for an ACF, like Dungeoncrasher)

This sums up my sentiment well. Taking Obtain Familiar to gain a familiar is not the same as getting it as a class feature for the purposes of ACFs, in my opinion. In general, not allowing them to replace the feat-gained familiar, as opposed to the class-feature familiar, with an ACF seems prudent.

Even for the Fighter ACFs that you mentioned, they're replacing Fighter Bonus feats, in of themselves a class feature, so that's not really the same thing, right.

Banning abrupt jaunt might be a bit harsh. My problem with abrupt jaunt is that conjuration is already a very good school of magic in which to specialize (one of the best two, arguably), so the fact that the familiar ACF for Conjuration is the strongest leaves me with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.

Reynard
2010-10-23, 10:27 PM
...You can't take Obtain Familiar at level 1.

Just mentioning that.

teslas
2010-10-23, 10:49 PM
You're right, you have to have arcane caster level 3rd.

You must take both Rapid Summoning and Immediate Magic at level 1.

Well then that makes the entire point moot.

Godskook
2010-10-23, 10:54 PM
There's another possibility where this could come up. I've personally ruled along with my friend and long-time DM that we do not allow such things.

Situation:

A wizard who wants some sort of variant gives up his familiar class feature for something like rapid summoning.

What if he takes the Obtain Familiar feat at level 1? Does he still get a familiar? Is it ok to lose a class feature for an ACF and then just take a feat to regain it? Obtain Familiar is one of those "could be broken as hell or very weak" feats, so this is is a gray area.

Worse yet, say he then wants to replace his familiar with another ACF, say the INT MOD times a day short teleport thing.

Now he's got two ACF's from two ways of obtaining a familiar but only one class that grants it.

Actually, the problem here is that he's not trading his class feature for Abrupt Jaunt in that example. He's trading his *feat* for it. That is not legal. You can exchange your CF-familiar for Abrupt Jaunt *OR* Rapid Summoning, but not both. Picking a feat which grants a similar feat feature does not change that fact.

Lans
2010-10-23, 11:39 PM
You're right, you have to have arcane caster level 3rd.

You must take both Rapid Summoning and Immediate Magic at level 1.

Well then that makes the entire point moot.

You might be able to pull an arcane caster level 3 at level 1. I think a trait adds 1 to a school and -2 to all other school, and there is a feat that adds 1 to certain subschools

teslas
2010-10-23, 11:57 PM
You also need some skill at 4 ranks, meaning you still have to be level 2 even if you find some sort of crap that lets you have CL 3 at 1, which I don't think you can do, because it has to be your caster level for all spells, not just one, or a certain group.

Lans
2010-10-24, 12:37 AM
You can have 4 ranks at first level, and the caster level issue is one that really hasn't been touched.