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View Full Version : Where's more 4th Edition?



0Megabyte
2010-10-23, 10:03 PM
So, I looked through the upcoming books Wizards of the Coast is bringing out well into next year, and I couldn't find anything that wasn't in their new Essentials line.

I know it can mesh with the old stuff, but are they simply no longer making products for vanilla 4E anymore?! Were the two Dark Sun books the very last?

I just bought the 4E core rulebooks, why are they shifting things to something new after less than three years?!

jmbrown
2010-10-23, 10:14 PM
No one can understand the business practices of WotC. There's a ton of rumors flying around from Essentials being a total rebranding to Wizards not publishing any new material because they're literally sitting on thousands of books they over-printed. Whatever the case, it looks like Essentials is the new norm.

WitchSlayer
2010-10-23, 10:17 PM
You missed heroes of shadow?

Lhurgyof
2010-10-23, 10:21 PM
4th ed. is done with?

That would explain why encounters is essentials now.

0Megabyte
2010-10-23, 10:23 PM
Huh. I assumed it was more an Essentials thing than anything else. However, that was the only thing that even looked like it might be for 4E. Everything else is all essentials all the time.

0Megabyte
2010-10-23, 10:24 PM
Yeah, that too! Living Forgotten Realms is apparently done, to be replaced by Essentials. Geez. Whenever I finally get manage to warm up to a new edition, it's just in time for it to be on its way out...

Zeofar
2010-10-23, 10:47 PM
The more often they come out with systems, the more books they think they'll get people to buy. The less different the systems are, the more likely people won't be upset with the changes. As far as I can tell, they want to scoop up people that didn't want 4e the first time around as well as string along people that did.




I just bought the 4E core rulebooks, why are they shifting things to something new after less than three years?!

lol 3.5.

Zeta Kai
2010-10-23, 10:50 PM
WotC is starting to look like they want to run D&D into the ground. They've annoyed a significant potion of their fan-base numerous times, & it doesn't seem like they know or care about our displeasure.

Zeofar
2010-10-23, 10:53 PM
WotC is starting to look like they want to run D&D into the ground. They've annoyed a significant potion of their fan-base numerous times, & it doesn't seem like they know or care about our displeasure.

Obviously, it will ease the transition of D&D into a rule subset of M:tG. Product synergy is going to be great with that.

Edit: By rule subset, I of course mean requiring 4 core books (Player's, Monster Conversion Rules, Spell Conversion Rules, and DMG).

Reverent-One
2010-10-23, 11:05 PM
No one can understand the business practices of WotC. There's a ton of rumors flying around from Essentials being a total rebranding to Wizards not publishing any new material because they're literally sitting on thousands of books they over-printed. Whatever the case, it looks like Essentials is the new norm.

No. The Essentials line is ten products, most, if not all of which, come out this year, and then is complete. After that they're back to normal 4e books. Which, we know from Gencon, will include Heroes of Shadow, a Player's Handbook focusing on the Heroic tier, another item book called Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, several more setting books (one on the Nentir Vale, one focused on one section of FR, and a boxed set for the Shadowfell). So there's plenty of things to take your money in the coming year.

{Scrubbed}

Zeta Kai
2010-10-24, 12:50 AM
No. The Essentials line is ten products, most, if not all of which, come out this year, and then is complete. After that they're back to normal 4e books. Which, we know from Gencon, will include Heroes of Shadow, a Player's Handbook focusing on the Heroic tier, another item book called Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, several more setting books (one on the Nentir Vale, one focused on one section of FR, and a boxed set for the Shadowfell). So there's plenty of things to take your money in the coming year.

{Scrub the original, scrub the quote}

So they're ceasing production of their main product line for a year, & instead they are putting out a limited series of semi-compatible books? And once the year is up, they're going back to their main system? That makes even less sense than just moving on to a new version. Good god, they're wacky. :smalleek::smallsigh:

Gralamin
2010-10-24, 01:04 AM
So they're ceasing production of their main product line for a year, & instead they are putting out a limited series of semi-compatible books? And once the year is up, they're going back to their main system? That makes even less sense than just moving on to a new version. Good god, they're wacky. :smalleek::smallsigh:

I believe it's closer to half a year.

Reverent-One
2010-10-24, 01:05 AM
So they're ceasing production of their main product line for a year, & instead they are putting out a limited series of semi-compatible books? And once the year is up, they're going back to their main system? That makes even less sense than just moving on to a new version. Good god, they're wacky. :smalleek::smallsigh:

No, to begin with, the Essential's products are only taking up half the of 2010. And since they are fully compatible with 4e in general, they're not abandoning their existing players in any way. The player's books offer new powers and feats even if you don't care for the new class builds, dungeon tiles are useful to those who use such things, the rules compendium is quite the extensive collection of 4e rules, and the monster vault provides more monsters, which are always good to have.

Tyrant
2010-10-24, 01:14 AM
So they're ceasing production of their main product line for a year, & instead they are putting out a limited series of semi-compatible books? And once the year is up, they're going back to their main system? That makes even less sense than just moving on to a new version. Good god, they're wacky. :smalleek::smallsigh:
Psionic Power (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/210940000), release date 8/17/10 (just over 2 months ago). Heroes of Shadow (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/280880000), release date 3/15/11 (a little under 4 months from now). 7 months is a really short year, which doesn't account for any of the other material like maps, miniatures, etc.

Edit: It looks like it's actually even less of an interval. Rules Compendium (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/247530000) came out on 9/21/10 (just over a month ago).

Kurald Galain
2010-10-24, 04:30 AM
So, I looked through the upcoming books Wizards of the Coast is bringing out well into next year, and I couldn't find anything that wasn't in their new Essentials line.
Note the difference between the "essentials line", which is exactly ten products that are intended to be always available, and which ends after those ten products; and the "new design philosophy started in essentials", which I call 4.4 for short, which includes every single future book. This means that e.g. every future feat will not have a tier, every future item will have a rarity, and every future wizard encounter power will have a miss effect.

There are several upcoming books that aren't "essentials" in that they don't have that word on the cover and won't be always available in stores, but are 4.4 in that they follow the philosophy and layout that was first seen in the "essentials" books. Such as:

Mordenkainen's Emporium: basically the Adventurer's Vault 3, but focused on the new rarity system. Meant for HOFL/HOFK players that want more common items than the ~50 printed now, and more rare items than the ~20 printed now.
Heroes of Shadow: basically the new PHB3, after HOFL and HOFK. It is unclear what classes it contains, since the Assassin is in Dragon magazine and the Hexblade will be in HOFK.
Class Compendium, Sword And Spell: the fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric, and warlord builds from the PHB1, as remodelled for 4.4. Meant for HOFL players who want more options.
Undoubtedly there will be a second Class Compendium that features the ranger, druid, paladin, and warlock, meant for HOFK players who want more options.
Champions of the Heroic Tier: themes (like in the Dark Sun book but for other campaign worlds) and professions.

Yora
2010-10-24, 05:04 AM
So they're ceasing production of their main product line for a year, & instead they are putting out a limited series of semi-compatible books? And once the year is up, they're going back to their main system? That makes even less sense than just moving on to a new version. Good god, they're wacky. :smalleek::smallsigh:


"WotCs business descisions in the last time have been like watching a horde of drunken monkeys driving a million dollar Rolls Royce into a wall in slow motions. At the same time totaly hillarious and very sad."

Reverent-One
2010-10-24, 11:29 AM
Mordenkainen's Emporium: basically the Adventurer's Vault 3, but focused on the new rarity system items with story behind them rather than being nothing more than +X and some magic property. Meant for HOFL/HOFK all 4e players that want more common items than the ~50 printed now, and more rare items than the ~20 printed now.

Fixed that for you.


Class Compendium, Sword And Spell: the fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric, and warlord builds from the PHB1, as remodelled for 4.4. Meant for HOFL players who want more options.

Also makes it possible for people using the pre-Essentials builds to take the class features of the Essential class builds. And from the description, may contain most of the errata for the PHB I classes that are included in it, which is something 4e players have been asking for for a while.


Undoubtedly there will be a second Class Compendium that features the ranger, druid, paladin, and warlock, meant for HOFK players who want more options.

See above point.

{Scrubbed}

Prime32
2010-10-24, 11:37 AM
{Scrub the original, scrub the quote}Why did they delete all their non-Essentials 4e material then?

Reverent-One
2010-10-24, 11:40 AM
Why did they delete all their non-Essentials 4e material then?

What are you even talking about?

Aron Times
2010-10-24, 11:45 AM
What are you even talking about?
Yeah, the sheer ignorance in this thread blows my mind.

They're not deleting their pre-Essentials stuff because Essentials is part of 4e.

Zeta Kai
2010-10-24, 12:23 PM
They're not deleting their pre-Essentials stuff because Essentials is part of 4e.

Yes, but they are updating everything that they have done in the past three years, essentially invalidating it. It's 4.5 is all but name. You can paint it up with semantics & terminology all you want, but the bottom line is that they have tweaked the system & they want you to buy it all over again.

Aron Times
2010-10-24, 12:28 PM
It doesn't invalidate 4e because it's part of 4e. It's basically a simplified version of the game for beginners, and is fully compatible with all 4e content.

Besides, 4e players are used to regular errata, or as Wizards calls them, Rules Updates. Rules updates are a good thing because they fix broken stuff. They didn't have as much errata for 3.5 because they were less aware of its issues.

This is like complaining that a publisher prints a second edition of a book that fixes typos and other errors.

Shpadoinkle
2010-10-24, 12:34 PM
Obviously, they're preparing for either an official 4.5e or 5e.

Reverent-One
2010-10-24, 12:37 PM
Yes, but they are updating everything that they have done in the past three years, essentially invalidating it. It's 4.5 is all but name. You can paint it up with semantics & terminology all you want, but the bottom line is that they have tweaked the system & they want you to buy it all over again.

They've tweaked the system since the first book after the PHB I, MM I, and DMG I. They are NOT invalidating the old stuff. If you want to play a PHB I fighter, guess what? There's nothing wrong with doing that. They want you to buy more books, yes, but again, they've been doing that ever since they released the PHB I, MM I, and DMG I. The difference between this and what you call "4.5" is that you don't need to buy the new stuff anymore than you had to buy the X Power books or the later MMs.

{Scrubbed}

JRKlein
2010-10-24, 12:56 PM
Word of God says that Essentials wasn't meant to replace 4e, it's just a supplement. Essentials characters can be used in 4e and vice versa.

Mordokai
2010-10-24, 01:19 PM
This is like complaining that a publisher prints a second edition of a book that fixes typos and other errors.

And you're telling me you wouldn't be pissed off at the publisher that would charge full price for a book that only has fixed typos and some errors? Because frankly, I'd be pretty pissed off with them.

DeltaEmil
2010-10-24, 01:21 PM
Are you forced to buy it? Because last I knew, mind-controlling devices still haven't been invented yet.

Reverent-One
2010-10-24, 01:27 PM
And you're telling me you wouldn't be pissed off at the publisher that would charge full price for a book that only has fixed typos and some errors? Because frankly, I'd be pretty pissed off with them.

The problem with Joseph Silver's analogy was that WoTC isn't charging for their updates, the errata is free online. A better one would be Amazon putting out a new kindle version of some book, with corrections to the typos and errors to everyone who bought the old version.

Mordokai
2010-10-24, 01:43 PM
Are you forced to buy it? Because last I knew, mind-controlling devices still haven't been invented yet.

Ah, that's what they want you to think :smallwink: :smalltongue:


The problem with Joseph Silver's analogy was that WoTC isn't charging for their updates, the errata is free online. A better one would be Amazon putting out a new kindle version of some book, with corrections to the typos and errors to everyone who bought the old version.

I am well aware what he meant and have chosen to be an ass about it on purpose. Guess an apology is due. Still, on some level, what I said is true. IF Essentials would be nothing more than fixed typos (which I know is not the case), than it would be pretty bitchy to pay full amount of cash for the product. And some people do see it as such, I guess. Now me, I haven't bought a single book since the basic set (PHB I, DMG I and MM I) and have sold those three soon after I have bought them, so this doesn't really concern me since I'm living off CB nicely. Some people prefer their books in paper and guess those people have more problems with this new line of products.

Lord Raziere
2010-10-24, 01:45 PM
heh. I'm a 4E'er, I did some research on Essentials.

guess what. I looked WotC's online DnD catalog, and Essentials were listed as a supplement, meaning that Essentials is not even Core, so its not even a central part of the rules, in short....

Essentials is completely optional, is not essential at all. :smallbiggrin:

Lhurgyof
2010-10-24, 02:20 PM
heh. I'm a 4E'er, I did some research on Essentials.

guess what. I looked WotC's online DnD catalog, and Essentials were listed as a supplement, meaning that Essentials is not even Core, so its not even a central part of the rules, in short....

Essentials is completely optional, is not essential at all. :smallbiggrin:

It is essential for Encounters.

God damned Wizards of the Coast, making us buy their crappy products.

Touchy
2010-10-24, 02:23 PM
It is essential for Encounters.

God damned Wizards of the Coast, making us buy their crappy products.

Usually stores don't care if you host a game at their shop.
So yeah, you could just host you're own game. Encounter's is too short for me anyways.

0Megabyte
2010-10-24, 02:49 PM
Alright then. Remember I'm still new at 4E, and only have the core books, and haven't even managed to look through and get a grip on what extra books they already have out now.

What's the difference, then, between the "Player's Options" book Heroes of Shadow, and things like the Powers books? Are there any other "Player's Options" books, or is this one the first?

Reverent-One
2010-10-24, 02:56 PM
What's the difference, then, between the "Player's Options" book Heroes of Shadow, and things like the Powers books? Are there any other "Player's Options" books, or is this one the first?

It's hard to say right now, as Heroes of Shadow hasn't come out yet, nor has any real details been released. As for other Player's Options books, Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms from the Essentials line don't have "Player's Options" in their names, but they do have another obvious similarity in naming scheme.

0Megabyte
2010-10-24, 04:31 PM
No wonder I assumed it was in the Essentials line. I saw the others with the similar names!

The Glyphstone
2010-10-24, 04:37 PM
As long as this new 'item rarity' system doesn't cause Mimics to transform into randomized booster packs instead of treasure chests, I'm all cool with it myself.:smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2010-10-24, 04:45 PM
Essentials is completely optional, is not essential at all. :smallbiggrin:
But of course.


What's the difference, then, between the "Player's Options" book Heroes of Shadow, and things like the Powers books? Are there any other "Player's Options" books, or is this one the first?
The difference is that the Powers books contain new builds and powers for existing classes, whereas the Heroes of Shadow book is said to contain new classes. It's more easily compared to the PHB3 than to the Power books.

Also, the layout, the paperback size, the double flavor text on all powers, the rarity on items, etc.

WitchSlayer
2010-10-24, 05:40 PM
It is essential for Encounters.

God damned Wizards of the Coast, making us buy their crappy products.

Yeah, but to be fair, Encounters is Wizard's way of not only giving a way for players to play, but also to showcase their new products.

Now what we can curse Wizards for is making the Character Builder such a good, well supported program that makes it a breeze to make characters.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-24, 05:46 PM
You know, for some of us it's a blessing as iot means we don't have to worry any more hardcovers coming out for a while, given my group is in the middle of a big campaign we want things to stand still. I want things to stand still, as DM so I don't have to remember as much.

The monk is a bit pissed off though.

None of my group is going to go with Essentials, we discussed it and all said no way as we said 4E was dumbing down anyway from 3.5. But we play 4E as it's so compatable with Star Wars, which we came off the back of.

The Big Dice
2010-10-24, 05:57 PM
Psionic Power (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/210940000), release date 8/17/10 (just over 2 months ago). Heroes of Shadow (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/280880000), release date 3/15/11 (a little under 4 months from now). 7 months is a really short year, which doesn't account for any of the other material like maps, miniatures, etc.

Edit: It looks like it's actually even less of an interval. Rules Compendium (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/247530000) came out on 9/21/10 (just over a month ago).
You know, releasing a Rules Compendium was one of the last things WotC did before wrapping up the 3.5 line. While they were denying that 4th edition was in the pipeline, too.

shadowmage
2010-10-24, 06:57 PM
But of course.


The difference is that the Powers books contain new builds and powers for existing classes, whereas the Heroes of Shadow book is said to contain new classes. It's more easily compared to the PHB3 than to the Power books.

Also, the layout, the paperback size, the double flavor text on all powers, the rarity on items, etc.

Are you sure it is having new classes? I heard they were looking at adding shadow options for the existing classes not add new classes. OK Doing some searching I see they do say now there will be new classes and races in it as well.