Durkon's Prophecy (Possible Spoilers)

[Sylthia]

I suppose there's no set rule that all the prophecies of the oracle have to happen during the course of the story, but it seems that the one that has received the least attention is Durkon's. (Dwarves are my favorite D&D race, so it would be nice if Durkon got a time to shine.)

I have one hypothesis about how is prophecy will come about. The prophecy that was the reason for Durkon leaving the Dwarven lands in the first place says that death and destruction will befall the dwarves when he returns. We also know that he will return posthumously per the Oracle. There two ways I think this could unfold depending on whether his return refers to his body or to his soul.

Both ways, Durkon must die somehow. The rest of the party would be unable to resurrect him, since he's the party's only cleric or other class capable of resurrecting. They decide the best course of action is to take his body back to the Dwarven lands so his fellow clerics can raise him.

Now if the prophecy merely refers to his body, the misfortune will happen because they enter with his corpse. If it refers to his soul, the clerics seem to have forgotten about the prophecy as seen by the letter Miko received, so they would have no qualms about raising him. Then the death and destruction will follow because of that.

Of course the act of raising could not be the cause of the misfortune at all. More likely Xykon, or some other foe follows the Order of the Stick to the Dwarven lands, and that is the cause of the death and destruction. So sending Durkon away in the first place is what causes the prophecy to come about. Quite Classical Greek.

[Zevox]

Actually, the prophecy that receives the least attention here is Elan's. Largely because there's not much to talk about with his (he gets a happy ending - pretty easy to guess what that's likely to entail).

But yes, there has been some substantial discussion of Durkon's two prophecies in the past. Personally, I've long been a proponent of the theory that Durkon will die and be turned into some sort of undead creature by Xykon, then used in an assault on the Dwarven Lands, likely on the way to Kraagor's Gate. It resolves both prophecies simultaneously quite well and would be very dramatic and potentially epic.

I really have to shake my head at the idea that he'll die, be brought there, and then be resurrected. I'd see that as quite a cop-out - his prophecy from the Oracle says he'll return posthumously, and while that doesn't rule out resurrection, it strikes me that there's little point to foreshadowing a death with a prophecy like that if he's just going to be raised. Would make the whole thing much less dramatic. Plus his involvement in bringing "death and destruction" to the Dwarven lands becomes pretty indirect - as weak as Belkar's involvement in Roy's death - under any scenario I can imagine where his body being brought to the Dwarven lands for resurrection is used. It could happen, but I just hope it doesn't, because I don't see it as being a particularly good way to resolve these prophecies.

Zevox

[Sylthia]

Oh, it would be nice to see those threads. I'm a long time fan, but relative new comer to the forums.
I like your hypothesis, but being indirect is often the case with prophecies, especially with the smart alec Oracle. Being the undead pawn of a greater evil is around the same level of directness as causing the evil to follow you there.

[Zevox]

Oh, it would be nice to see those threads. I'm a long time fan, but relative new comer to the forums.
It has been a while since we've had one, so I'm afraid you're going to be out of luck there. They pop up much less regularly than ones for, say, Belkar's impending doom, but there have been a few I can recall. They're just going to be buried quite a long way back in the forum archives by now.


I like your hypothesis, but being indirect is often the case with prophecies, especially with the smart alec Oracle.
Better tell the Giant that then, since not a single one of the Oracle's prophecies thus far have been anything but straightforward.


Being the undead pawn of a greater evil is around the same level of directness as causing the evil to follow you there.
Not really. If Durkon is among the forces being brought to bear against the Dwarven lands then plainly he has brought death and destruction with him upon his return. That's quite direct - he is even part of that death and destruction. Heck, if he's reanimated as an intelligent undead of some kind he may even be doing it intentionally, since such undead have "always evil" alignments, which would mean an instant personality change when he is reanimated as such.

Zevox

[Gray Mage]

I prefer the teory that Durkon will die, but will be raised in the dwarven lands with Team Evil trailing right behind them. But there is an alternate teory that isn't seen a lot that would take the oracle's answer as a bit more literal.
That posthumosly is how he finally retuns to the dwarven lands, as in the last time he returns, so he could return, leave and when he comes back for good he is dead.

[JRKlein]

Death is cheap, and the Oracle doesn't say anything precluding Durkon's resurrection. Perhaps in the not-too-distant future he'll bite the dust somehow, and if the Order happens to be near his homeland anyway, they'd go there to have him rezzed.

[Uncertainty]

Just a thought that I had last time there was a thread like this (Just quoted because I am a lazy tool)...


...But isn't it possible that the 'Death and Destruction' in the prophecy has nothing to do with a disaster at all?

Specifically, Durkon has recently befriended a High Priest of the god Nergal, a neutral god of Death and Destruction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) from the western pantheon. Couldn't the prophecy be referring to something much simpler - such as Malack following the Order back to the dwarven homelands to help them on their quest (Possibly at Durkon's behest/in Durkon's place if he is dead)?

It would certainly be a twist of the original expectations for the prophecy; and thus, pretty in keeping with how the Giant likes to mislead his audience on things like this (as someone put it earlier).

Others in that thread pointed out that the exact wording of the prophecy, "Death and destruction for us all", probably shoots down this particular theory... But it is still an idea to keep in mind, I think. Especially considering the fact that

Durkon now seems to be taking tips from Malak about integrating some of the 'mystical aspects' of their respective theologies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html). It might be possible that Malack would journey to the dwarven lands as a kind of emissary, to form a religious alliance; and/or as an honor guard accompanying his (dead) friend.

Just my personal epileptic tree (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees)...

[Zevox]

I prefer the teory that Durkon will die, but will be raised in the dwarven lands with Team Evil trailing right behind them. But there is an alternate teory that isn't seen a lot that would take the oracle's answer as a bit more literal.
That posthumosly is how he finally retuns to the dwarven lands, as in the last time he returns, so he could return, leave and when he comes back for good he is dead.

Just a thought that I had last time there was a thread like this (Just quoted because I am a lazy tool)...

...But isn't it possible that the 'Death and Destruction' in the prophecy has nothing to do with a disaster at all?

Specifically, Durkon has recently befriended a High Priest of the god Nergal, a neutral god of Death and Destruction from the western pantheon. Couldn't the prophecy be referring to something much simpler - such as Malack following the Order back to the dwarven homelands to help them on their quest (Possibly at Durkon's behest/in Durkon's place if he is dead)?

It would certainly be a twist of the original expectations for the prophecy; and thus, pretty in keeping with how the Giant likes to mislead his audience on things like this (as someone put it earlier).
Others in that thread pointed out that the exact wording of the prophecy, "Death and destruction for us all", probably shoots down this particular theory... But it is still an idea to keep in mind, I think. Especially considering the fact that

Durkon now seems to be taking tips from Malak about integrating some of the 'mystical aspects' of their respective theologies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html). It might be possible that Malack would journey to the dwarven lands as a kind of emissary, to form a religious alliance; and/or as an honor guard accompanying his (dead) friend.

Just my personal epileptic tree (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees)...
Yeah, I feel pretty confident saying neither of those will happen. Why? Simply because they'd be boring as heck. What would be the point of foreshadowing events with prophecies like these if the explanation is something as dull as either of those?

Zevox

[2-HeadedGiraffe]

it strikes me that there's little point to foreshadowing a death with a prophecy like that if he's just going to be raised.

Belkar's prophecy was about killing the Oracle, and he came back before his own blood was dry.

Also, I think Blackwing's prophecy is the least discussed.
Blackwing: Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw?
Oracle: Try ginkgo bilboa.

I'm just being contrary with that point. I hope that's self-evident, but my point about Belkar's prophecy stands. If Durkon came back, it wouldn't be the first time someone predicted to die did so.

[Zevox]

Belkar's prophecy was about killing the Oracle, and he came back before his own blood was dry.
True, but that one was just a joke. Durkon's seems quite distinctly to be more than that, especially given the overlap between it and his other prophecy from On the Origin of PCs. There'll be some serious drama coming from the events that resolve those prophecies I'll wager.


Also, I think Blackwing's prophecy is the least discussed.
Blackwing: Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw?
Oracle: Try ginkgo bilboa.

I'm just being contrary with that point.
Nah, that one has been discussed several times due to people wondering what the heck it means.

Zevox

[olthar]

I've just assumed that this referred to kraagor's gate and the obvious result of an army of xykon's marching through the area.

on the origin of pcs
the origin of pcs prophecy was "When he next returns home he will bring death and destruction for us all

It could refer to malack's return (for rather than to) or it could refer to completely different events. Kraagor's gate is near the north pole and near dwarven lands, but not necessarily in the dwarven lands. He could be killed defending the gate and be returned to the dwarven lands. His return is followed immediately by Xykon's army who, without a leader, rampage through the dwarven lands.

[Gift Jeraff]

I really like that Malack idea. However, as Zevox said, if it turns out to be nothing particularly exciting or important, then what was the whole point of the prophecy? We already had Belkar's prophecy as the red herring prophecy "joke" (though it did prove to be pivotal to the plot, having activated the Mark of Justice, so I guess there's yet to be a prophecy that ultimately proves to be insignificant/boring, but I doubt there will be one).

[2-HeadedGiraffe]

Nah, that one has been discussed several times due to people wondering what the heck it means.
Zevox

Oh, that must have been before I started following the forums. Blackwing's prophecy is set up as if it's just a throw-away gag at the end of the page, but it would be interesting if it actually turns out to mean something important. Ginkgo is a memory aid, among other things (as I'm sure previous discussions have mentioned).

Maybe he asked, "How can we get around the memory charm?"

[Nimrod's Son]

Maybe he asked, "How can we get around the memory charm?"
I'm pretty sure it's intended to be, "How can I get V to remember I exist?". It's just a throwaway joke, and we'll just have to assume Blackwing took his advice off-panel and it worked. Any other answer, particularly involving the Flight of the Phylactery, would have spoilt the surprise of Blackwing becoming a recurring character later on.

[Zevox]

Oh, that must have been before I started following the forums. Blackwing's prophecy is set up as if it's just a throw-away gag at the end of the page, but it would be interesting if it actually turns out to mean something important. Ginkgo is a memory aid, among other things (as I'm sure previous discussions have mentioned).

Maybe he asked, "How can we get around the memory charm?"
Oh, it's a throwaway gag, but it's one that confused a lot of people, since most of us had no idea what ginkgo bilboa was. Hence there were a lot of folks asking for clarification on it when that comic was posted, and we've periodically gotten someone posting a new thread asking about it since (though they have decreased in frequency over time, to the point where they're basically nonexistent now).

Zevox

[Cerlis]

Better tell the Giant that then, since not a single one of the Oracle's prophecies thus far have been anything but straightforward.

In retrospect they where direct, but "Dont look the gifthorse in the mouth" and Vaarsuvius' dont seem that direct to me. Even though he answered Durkon's question, it would seem Durkon was pretty much asking "What series of events and what do i need to do to return home" but the way he worded it allowed for the cryptic, undetailed accurate answer.


From what i see of where the story is going, i think most likely scenario is that....the last gate is the one made by the halfing right? In honor of the Dwarf?

I think the most likely scenario is that the Last gate is in the dwarven kingdom and Bringing Durkon to his family after he dies is going to lead Xykon to the last gate, the dwarven land, in which his evilocity will destroy the kingdom.

[headmonkeyboy]

I suppose there's no set rule that all the prophecies of the oracle have to happen during the course of the story, but it seems that the one that has received the least attention is Durkon's. (Dwarves are my favorite D&D race, so it would be nice if Durkon got a time to shine.)

I have one hypothesis about how is prophecy will come about. The prophecy that was the reason for Durkon leaving the Dwarven lands in the first place says that death and destruction will befall the dwarves when he returns. We also know that he will return posthumously per the Oracle. There two ways I think this could unfold depending on whether his return refers to his body or to his soul.

Both ways, Durkon must die somehow. The rest of the party would be unable to resurrect him, since he's the party's only cleric or other class capable of resurrecting. They decide the best course of action is to take his body back to the Dwarven lands so his fellow clerics can raise him.

Now if the prophecy merely refers to his body, the misfortune will happen because they enter with his corpse. If it refers to his soul, the clerics seem to have forgotten about the prophecy as seen by the letter Miko received, so they would have no qualms about raising him. Then the death and destruction will follow because of that.

Of course the act of raising could not be the cause of the misfortune at all. More likely Xykon, or some other foe follows the Order of the Stick to the Dwarven lands, and that is the cause of the death and destruction. So sending Durkon away in the first place is what causes the prophecy to come about. Quite Classical Greek.

Sigh...... We have too much free time.....

[Zevox]

In retrospect they where direct, but "Dont look the gifthorse in the mouth" and Vaarsuvius' dont seem that direct to me.
Vaarsuvius' was quite direct. The Oracle gave a very specific answer to it, and posters here were able to guess the outcome quite quickly (deal with a devil being a possibility guessed at quite early, and quickly gaining popularity once Qarr was seen setting off after V). The only thing resembling twist to it was that V was speaking to herself, which is pretty inconsequential to the prophecy itself. Important for character development, but the prophecy was a hint at future events, not at character development.

As for Haley's, that was the only one that was so much as a metaphor, and even that one was obvious once the circumstances for it began. Posters here were guessing that it was occurring as soon as Nale asked Haley out. No tricks to it - the moment it appeared a circumstance that fit the bill was coming about, it did.


Even though he answered Durkon's question, it would seem Durkon was pretty much asking "What series of events and what do i need to do to return home" but the way he worded it allowed for the cryptic, undetailed accurate answer.
Odd, then, that Durkon himself considers the answer everything he wanted. Seems to me that telling him he will return posthumously answers Durkon's question in full as far he is concerned. It is only his other prophecy, of which he is unaware, that gives us reason to believe there will be more to those events than Durkon simply not returning home until after his death. And because we have that other prophecy warning us, we are again already guessing at likely outcomes to fulfill both, so if such outcomes prove to be true, then the prophecies again prove quite direct as far as we readers are concerned.

Zevox

[Cerlis]

Vaarsuvius' was quite direct. The Oracle gave a very specific answer to it, and posters here were able to guess the outcome quite quickly (deal with a devil being a possibility guessed at quite early, and quickly gaining popularity once Qarr was seen setting off after V). The only thing resembling twist to it was that V was speaking to herself, which is pretty inconsequential to the prophecy itself. Important for character development, but the prophecy was a hint at future events, not at character development.

As for Haley's, that was the only one that was so much as a metaphor, and even that one was obvious once the circumstances for it began. Posters here were guessing that it was occurring as soon as Nale asked Haley out. No tricks to it - the moment it appeared a circumstance that fit the bill was coming about, it did.


Odd, then, that Durkon himself considers the answer everything he wanted. Seems to me that telling him he will return posthumously answers Durkon's question in full as far he is concerned. It is only his other prophecy, of which he is unaware, that gives us reason to believe there will be more to those events than Durkon simply not returning home until after his death. And because we have that other prophecy warning us, we are again already guessing at likely outcomes to fulfill both, so if such outcomes prove to be true, then the prophecies again prove quite direct as far as we readers are concerned.

Zevox

Indeed, they each got answers that answered their questions and came true and knowing either the plot outcome or Story tropes it all makes sense and all. But I'm just saying that Though Durkon recieved a question that literally answered the question he spoke and it was satisfactory, and that Haley's and V's outlined the situation in which their problem was solved, that they didnt recieve a "real" answer. Which of course makes sense what with the whole "future telling" trope.

Its not really relevant, I suppose we are just seeing to different implications of "direct". I'm just cautious about making it sounds like the prophecies are literal (which i'm not saying you are doing); since though they each recieved acurate answers none recieved details enough to I guess you would say, answer the question that was in their head.

[willpell]

Durkon's true death would be required - something that denies resurrection or that he approves of such as to demand not to be raised. But I'm thinking it'd be very appropriate if Xykon cast a spell which kills Durkon stone-dead, but which unbeknowst to the OOTSers is a special version thereof which Xykon researched in order to try to be rid of the OOTS altogether - a few days after the death, the corpse releases a diseased miasma which spreads contagious lethal illness. Xykon made it contagious simply to ensure that it would affect the entire OOTS even if they Split the Party, but didn't reckon with them meeting the dwarves who would take Durkon's body home, and therefore release the disease in the confined and crowded tunnels of the dwarves.

I don't know if the Giant would want to give us a downer ending like that; the epicness of an undead Durkon is probably more likely. But this is the version that seems to me to more fittingly qualify as "Durkon" returning home and bringing doom, rather than "an undead creature created from Durkon's corpse" doing so.

[Zevox]

Durkon's true death would be required - something that denies resurrection or that he approves of such as to demand not to be raised. But I'm thinking it'd be very appropriate if Xykon cast a spell which kills Durkon stone-dead, but which unbeknowst to the OOTSers is a special version thereof which Xykon researched in order to try to be rid of the OOTS altogether - a few days after the death, the corpse releases a diseased miasma which spreads contagious lethal illness. Xykon made it contagious simply to ensure that it would affect the entire OOTS even if they Split the Party, but didn't reckon with them meeting the dwarves who would take Durkon's body home, and therefore release the disease in the confined and crowded tunnels of the dwarves.

I don't know if the Giant would want to give us a downer ending like that; the epicness of an undead Durkon is probably more likely. But this is the version that seems to me to more fittingly qualify as "Durkon" returning home and bringing doom, rather than "an undead creature created from Durkon's corpse" doing so.
Huh, that's an interesting thought. Would work, and could be quite the interesting scenario.

I wouldn't worry about the "downer ending" thing myself. We know that death and destruction will be coming to the Dwarves, one way or another. Doesn't exactly sound like they'll be getting off with an unambiguously happy ending no matter what happens.

Zevox

[EMichael]

Does Durkon really need a reason to not be resurrected?

We have seen in the past (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) that that Durkon does not really object to the idea of being dead. If he died saving the world then the rest of the OOTS crew would want him to be honored, and they would bring his body back to the Dwarven Lands to be buried with dignity. It is the most obvious explanation, but sometimes it is better to go with what everyone expected rather then some implausible plot.

The Dwarves just don't seem to be the type that would try to resurrect someone unless they had a really good reason to do so.

[Darth Hunterix]

And I bet, that after Girard's Gate destruction some new crucial informations will be revealed, and all the speculations will be proven wrong, because we simply don't have enough data to anticipate anything.

Ok, now my own theory:
When OotS will reach the border of Dwarven Lands Durkon will stand next to it and yell: "Durkon goes HOME!", which will cause the biggest avalanche in history, and Durkon himself will be killed by a falling rock at the exact moment he will be crossing the border. He won't be raised, because his body will be buried under 1 000 000 tons of stone.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Does Durkon really need a reason to not be resurrected?
Problem is, he already has a reason to be resurrected. His Duty to save the world.

[noweezernoworld]

So...what do you guys think now?

[Vinsfeld]

Watch out, we got a necromancer over here

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Back! Back to your crypt, spawn of evil!