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The Oakenshield
2010-10-24, 10:52 AM
I am thinking of implementing the following restrictions on spells in a Core, CW, CA and PHBII game.


Any spell that changes the shape or abilities of the caster is removed, except Disguise Self, Alter Self and Tenser's Transformation.

All Summon Monster and Summon Nature's ally is removed.

All spells that give the target extra actions are removed, except for Haste.


Would this be wise?

Thanks:smallsmile:

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-24, 10:55 AM
I am thinking of implementing the following restrictions on spells in a Core, CW, CA and PHBII game.


Any spell that changes the shape or abilities of the caster is removed, except Disguise Self, Alter Self and Tenser's Transformation.

All Summon Monster and Summon Nature's ally is removed.

All spells that give the target extra actions are removed, except for Haste.


Would this be wise?

Thanks:smallsmile:

You should allow shapechanging abilities such as "Trollform" and the rest of the "stealth polymorph fix" school, and throw out Alter Self, Polymorph, etc. While you're at it, replace Wildshape with the PHB II variant.

Not sure why you're removing Summon X, unless it's a matter of extra controlled characters bogging down flow or something.

Also, "giving extra actions" is a bit too vague, and some such abilities are fairly reasonable (Haste being one example, as you mentioned). Just ban the significant ones that actually turn lesser actions into much better actions, like Celerity.

Pie Guy
2010-10-24, 10:56 AM
Missing a few Win spells, like Black Tentacles, but it is a fairly large nerf. Also: needs to lose Natural Spell.

jiriku
2010-10-24, 11:10 AM
+1 to the suggesting of the PH2 druid ACF, as it constitutes a fairly large nerf that brings the druid down to something that begins to resemble balanced (lose animal companion, Natural Spell compatibility, weaker replacement for wild shape).

If you're concerned about shape alteration, alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange are the unbalanced spells. Other form-altering spells are generally ok.

Summoning is fun and not generally unbalanced. Perhaps you could restrict the summoner to having no more than one summoned monster in existence at a time? This prevents a caster from carpeting the battlefield with celestial bison or somesuch. However, I really don't see the point.

Likewise, I don't see the issue with extra-action spells. You might wish to slightly homebrew the celerity line of spells to indicate that a character immune to daze can't benefit from the spell, but really, the issue with casters is not so much that they get more actions, but that the actions they get are much better than those available to non-casters. That's a balance issue that can't be corrected without chapters and chapters of houserules.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-24, 11:12 AM
Likewise, I don't see the issue with extra-action spells.

Celerity.

I mean, that's pretty much a no-brainer ban, if you ask me.

The Oakenshield
2010-10-24, 11:20 AM
Banned spells-

Time Stop, Celerity, Alter Self, Shapechange, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Summon Spells (to prevent combat slowing down).

Rules-

PHII Druid Wildshape.



Please, keep the suggestions coming!:smallbiggrin:

gbprime
2010-10-24, 11:22 AM
"changes the shape of the caster" is pretty self explanatory. But "changes the abilities of the caster" is vague. What are you looking to bar, ability score changes or extraordinary abilities? (For example, is Water Breathing or Fly banned because they grant the caster new extraordinary abilities?)

jiriku
2010-10-24, 11:26 AM
OK, So I take my turn during your turn, then I lose my turn. This is good. But its effectiveness is highly dependent on what I do with my turn, and how well I cover my ass while dazed.

I have DM'd a player who effectively PK'd himself by using celerity in combat and getting torn to bits while dazed. I see that interrupting your opponent is good times, but the celerity line is balanced by its limitations. Again, the only modification from standard that I'd recommend is to ensure that its limitations can't be bypassed.


Banned spells-

Time Stop, Celerity, Alter Self, Shapechange, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Summon Spells (to prevent combat slowing down).

Rules-
PHII Druid Wildshape.
Please, keep the suggestions coming!:smallbiggrin:

If you are concerned about combat slowing down because of multiple units per player, then you also want to take a look at the Leadership, Undead Leadership, and Dragon Cohort feats, the Rebuke Undead class feature, the ranger's animal companion, the paladin's mount, the sorcerer and wizard's familiar, the Handle Animal skill, animate dead, planar binding, planar ally, and dragon ally.

But frankly, banning all of that stuff is a bit of a buzzkill. A simpler approach is a metagame rule:

Pets, companions, cohorts, followers, and summoned or bound creatures and the like must have all of their statistics recorded on a single sheet of paper or index card. If you do not have stats for your critter recorded in this fashion, it may not be introduced in the game. If you forget to bring stats for a creature that is already in the game, it vanishes in a puff of continuity. If you are bad at math or have difficulty deciding what to do in combat, you are encouraged to refrain from acquiring extra controllable creatures.

Emmerask
2010-10-24, 11:32 AM
-There is no singular future that will come, there are many different futures that may come.
Nerfs contact other plane and its like, questions regarding the future are always answered with don´t know/maybe however questions regarding the present or past are perfectly valid.

-Robe Trick should be banned.



Would this be wise?

Thanks:smallsmile:

In my book anything that nerfs tier 1 classes is a good thing :smallwink:

Urpriest
2010-10-24, 11:32 AM
OK, So I take my turn during your turn, then I lose my turn. This is good. But its effectiveness is highly dependent on what I do with my turn, and how well I cover my ass while dazed.

I have DM'd a player who effectively PK'd himself by using celerity in combat and getting torn to bits while dazed. I see that interrupting your opponent is good times, but the celerity line is balanced by its limitations. Again, the only modification from standard that I'd recommend is to ensure that its limitations can't be bypassed.

The problem with Celerity is that acting first is often sufficient to win a combat, irrespective of your ability to act afterwards. The solution, then is to ban the spells that let you win a combat on the first round, not to ban Celerity. This may be a more extensive project, however.

jiriku
2010-10-24, 11:35 AM
This may be a more extensive project, however.

Agreed. Such a project would essentially amount to an overhaul of the entire system. Many people on these boards are doing exactly that (myself included), but that's well beyond the scope of the OP's request.

gbprime
2010-10-24, 11:37 AM
OK, So I take my turn during your turn, then I lose my turn. This is good. But its effectiveness is highly dependent on what I do with my turn, and how well I cover my ass while dazed.

I have DM'd a player who effectively PK'd himself by using celerity in combat and getting torn to bits while dazed. I see that interrupting your opponent is good times, but the celerity line is balanced by its limitations. Again, the only modification from standard that I'd recommend is to ensure that its limitations can't be bypassed.

There's ways to abuse it. If you can quicken spells without cranking up the effective spell level, for example.

Round 1 - cast spell, cast quickened Greater Celerity
Bonus 1 - cast spell, cast quickened Greater Celerity
Bonus 2 - cast spell, cast quickened Greater Celerity

etc, until your quickens run out, then use your final bonus action to remove yourself from the battlefield (prismatic sphere, forcecage, ethereal, teleport) before you spend 3 or more rounds unable to do anything.

The result is a wizard that can cast 4 or more nukes in a single round before taking a time out. But the idea is that those nukes pretty much end the fight right there, with the other PC's able to finish mopping up.

Alternately, after the wizard is done throwing all those nukes, the cleric casts 1 Heal on him, and gets rid of all those rounds of Dazed.

jiriku
2010-10-24, 11:40 AM
If the OP is going to ban every spell that can theoretically be abused in some fashion, his ban list is going to include half the spells in the game. And frankly, any player clever enough to beat an encounter using the combo you described can probably come up with another one just as good if he doesn't have access to greater celerity and a greater metamagic rod of quicken.

Aharon
2010-10-24, 01:07 PM
I would suggest just using the Test of Spite ruleset found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8399975&postcount=2), under the heading "Fix and Ban list".

They put a lot of work into it, and balance the game around JaronK's Tier 2/3.

blackjack217
2010-10-24, 01:15 PM
Summoning is fun and not generally unbalanced. Perhaps you could restrict the summoner to having no more than one summoned monster in existence at a time? This prevents a caster from carpeting the battlefield with celestial bison or somesuch. However, I really don't see the point.


in RAW you have to wait 1 minute per spell level on summons before you can cast another.

Urpriest
2010-10-24, 01:20 PM
in RAW you have to wait 1 minute per spell level on summons before you can cast another.

I've never seen that rule before. Where is it?

blackjack217
2010-10-24, 01:25 PM
I've never seen that rule before. Where is it?

Odd I remember the rule but am unable to locate it. Still it makes sense balance wise

Moriato
2010-10-24, 01:26 PM
Odd I remember the rule but am unable to locate it. Still it makes sense balance wise

I think it may be a house rule, I've never heard of it either.

Keld Denar
2010-10-24, 01:26 PM
in RAW you have to wait 1 minute per spell level on summons before you can cast another.
Wait, what? Where does it say that? I've never seen anything resembling that...

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-24, 01:35 PM
But frankly, banning all of that stuff is a bit of a buzzkill.

Actually, the stuff he banned is pretty sane and is unlikely to kill anyone's buzz unless they only get a buzz from going all Rita (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YVOcV5zkxY&feature=related) with Celerity. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDRP5JxITkI&feature=related), save for what I note in point 3.

1) Banning Celerity isn't going to stop someone from playing a character concept they want. There's not a lot of fluff there. It's just a huge power upgrade.

2) Banning Wildshape/Polymorph/etc is entirely reasonable, and you're not losing significant conceptual space if you're actually replacing them. That is to say, using the "X-shape" line of spells (which basically splits Polymorph up into several separate, less crazy spells) and the PHB II wildshape variant.

3) I'm not crazy about the summoning houserule, but if he wants to expedite combat by limited people's ability to put some 4 creatures on the field (not to mention some players take way too much time flipping around through books to figure out what their summon monsters actually do instead of coming prepared) I can see why he might feel that way.

Anyways, this is the only one that really reduces conceptual space in a notable fashion. Of course, if someone isn't out to play a minion master, they probably don't care beyond "Oh noes, I can't use a badger martyr to scout traps."


If the OP is going to ban every spell that can theoretically be abused in some fashion

Okay now you're just being ridiculous. Polymorph line + Celerity != Every spell that can be theoretically abused in some fashion. Not even remotely close.

silvadel
2010-10-24, 01:45 PM
Eh -- spells don't need to be banned, they just need to not be abused.

Nerfus -- dread god of cheese and whine. When he sees people abusing aspects of the world's magic(cheese) he nerfs the player in question which makes him whine. Nerfus is only spoken about in hushed tones and has very few actual followers/clerics except in certain MMORPGs.

Players KNOW when they are exploiting the system. Just having such a god in the world and telling people that things are open but don't take undue advantage of the situation will keep most people in check.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-24, 01:49 PM
Players KNOW when they are exploiting the system. Just having such a god in the world and telling people that things are open but don't take undue advantage of the situation will keep most people in check.

You can, in fact, have a gentleman's agreement on what kind of things are acceptable and still have a decent banlist that establishes things like "Hey, use the Wildshape variant in the PHB II." In fact, statements like that help to establish for your players exactly what level of power is acceptable. When you ban Celerity it tells them "Don't break the action economy."

It's not like he's listing off "don't play Pun Pun" or "don't get infinite wishes from an efreeti" or anything that is unambiguously something a nice player wouldn't do.

Otherwise I'd be suggesting a banlist like...

No Cheater of Mystara, Pun-Pun, Wish and the Word, Nasty Gentleman, Item Dupes, Explosive Rune collecting, Invulnerability builds (Hannibal Lector the Illithid Savant, Twice Betrayer of Shar, etc), Tleilaxu’s Mind Switch tactica, Component Free Wishing, Spell Level Jacking, Mercantile Leaders, Transformation Field limitless spell outputs, Attack of the Clones, Psionic Time-Copies, H.I.V.E., Ice Sculpture God, Emaciated Spawn Reincarntation, Nanobots, Hyper-Evolved Undead, the Teflemmar multipouncer, Economy Commander, Hulking Moon Hurler, Odytoboman’s Infinite Stuff, Free Templates (e.g. Effigy, Lycanthropy, Tauric, etc abuse), Tainted Spellcasting, The Synchronicity Shuffle, Omniscificers, Lord of Procrastination’s Dirty Tricks, The Perpetual Damage Machine, Psly’s Dirty Damage Combo, Unfettered Heroism Wand Surge abuse, Festering Strength, The Beast, Shambling Mound Electroshock Therapy, Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies, Bestow Power Fission, Consumptive Field, or Diplomancers

Not...

Celerity is not considered playing nice.

Emmerask
2010-10-24, 02:23 PM
Eh -- spells don't need to be banned, they just need to not be abused.

In case of some spells however not abusing them is the same as not using them at all :smallwink:

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-24, 02:30 PM
In case of some spells however not abusing them is the same as not using them at all :smallwink:

Indeed. Examples: Celerity. Streamers.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-10-24, 06:47 PM
ban summon spells? Really? ... w.e welcome to the boards

/thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3288.0)

grimbold
2010-10-25, 10:44 AM
alter self is pretty broken you can become something with la and natural armor

Achernar
2010-10-25, 11:51 AM
Summoning is a very balanced and flavorful set of spells, one that often saves players' necks in bad situations. It has saved characters I play no fewer than once per campaign. I wouldn't remove unless it absolutely disagrees with your setting, and even so, it will hurt the party magi a lot.

Celerity is very cheesy. I don't blame you for removing that...

As far as shapechanging magic goes, I haven't seen it used in any campaign of mine. If you are concerned about rules Limburger in action, look under the "gaming" section of that little brown bar on the left of the page, there's a variant of the spells there.

All in all, I don't like banning spells, except in obviously overpowered cases like shivering touch, celerity and power word pain. Tread carefully when removing material, especially PHB1 material. It tends to thwart a lot of interesting (balanced) ideas.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-25, 12:04 PM
Celerity is not that bad, unless you have a means of ignoring the penalty.

Personally, I prefer init optimization and nerveskitter to go first, since it has a lower cost than celerity does. Not only does it take less spell slots, but it doesn't leave me so profoundly vulnerable.

It's only really broken in TO, wherein you've optimized every fight to be a glorified game of rocket tag with nuclear rockets. That'd be the problem, not celerity.

Keld Denar
2010-10-25, 12:04 PM
especially PHB1 material <snip> (balanced)

Wait what? Core is renown as the most unbalanced set. There's another 10 page thread up that goes into detail about the whole mess. With the exception of the bard and maybe the rogue, you'd be best off just elimintating EVERYTHING from the PHB except skills and a handful of feats that are needed to qualify for PrCs in other books. Play a game with just Dragonfire Adepts, Binders, Totemists, Factotums, Crusaders, Warblades, Swordsages, Beguilers, Favored Souls, Dragon Shamen, etc.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-25, 12:17 PM
Celerity is not that bad, unless you have a means of ignoring the penalty. Yes it is that bad. The penalty is peanuts.

Being able to take your next turn now (as an immediate interrupt) rather than later is huge.

dsmiles
2010-10-25, 12:29 PM
No Cheater of Mystara, Pun-Pun, Wish and the Word, Nasty Gentleman, Item Dupes, Explosive Rune collecting, Invulnerability builds (Hannibal Lector the Illithid Savant, Twice Betrayer of Shar, etc), Tleilaxu’s Mind Switch tactica, Component Free Wishing, Spell Level Jacking, Mercantile Leaders, Transformation Field limitless spell outputs, Attack of the Clones, Psionic Time-Copies, H.I.V.E., Ice Sculpture God, Emaciated Spawn Reincarntation, Nanobots, Hyper-Evolved Undead, the Teflemmar multipouncer, Economy Commander, Hulking Moon Hurler, Odytoboman’s Infinite Stuff, Free Templates (e.g. Effigy, Lycanthropy, Tauric, etc abuse), Tainted Spellcasting, The Synchronicity Shuffle, Omniscificers, Lord of Procrastination’s Dirty Tricks, The Perpetual Damage Machine, Psly’s Dirty Damage Combo, Unfettered Heroism Wand Surge abuse, Festering Strength, The Beast, Shambling Mound Electroshock Therapy, Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies, Bestow Power Fission, Consumptive Field, or Diplomancers

:smalleek:
I really need to get on the forums more. I only understood, like, three things on that entire list...
:smalleek:

Zaydos
2010-10-25, 12:35 PM
I will point out that you can't cast Quickened spells with Greater Celerity it gives you a full-round action or a standard action and a move action, not a full round's worth of actions. So no swift action there.

As for Celerity it's a 4th level spell which can grant you the ability to cast a single different spell as an immediate action at the cost of your next entire turn. It's not worth it unless that spell will win you the battle; and it doesn't let you automatically go first unless you have Foresight (a 9th level spell) up as well so I'd go with Nerveskitter + Improved Initiative anyway.

The biggest problem is Celerity + Teleport actually; although that's a big enough problem I've contemplated banning Celerity for it (although here I'll point out Teleport is probably more problematic).

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-25, 12:37 PM
:smalleek:
I really need to get on the forums more. I only understood, like, three things on that entire list...
:smalleek:

I could name more. *Shrug*


It's not worth it unless that spell will win you the battle Oh yes it is. And you even gave an example...


The biggest problem is Celerity + Teleport actually
And this is the worst thing you can think of to do with Celerity. Heh.

Turning a standard action into an immediate, interrupting action just has a freakish amount of utility. And Wizards already are very well off in terms of action economy as it is.

kestrel404
2010-10-25, 12:41 PM
I will point out that you can't cast Quickened spells with Greater Celerity it gives you a full-round action or a standard action and a move action, not a full round's worth of actions. So no swift action there.

As for Celerity it's a 4th level spell which can grant you the ability to cast a single different spell as an immediate action at the cost of your next entire turn. It's not worth it unless that spell will win you the battle; and it doesn't let you automatically go first unless you have Foresight (a 9th level spell) up as well so I'd go with Nerveskitter + Improved Initiative anyway.

The biggest problem is Celerity + Teleport actually; although that's a big enough problem I've contemplated banning Celerity for it (although here I'll point out Teleport is probably more problematic).

You can always choose to use one type of action (say a move action) as a 'faster' grade of action (for example, a swift action). So you get a standard and a move, which you use for a standard (cast spell) and a swift (cast quickened spell).

jiriku
2010-10-25, 12:44 PM
Even spells like shivering touch and PW:P can fit very tamely in a game by altering the level at which they're learned. Shivering touch, for example, makes a very decent 4th-level spell in most games, and even the most conservative of GMs could live with it as a 5th-level spell. Even a hardcore broken spell like venomfire is livable as an 8th or 9th level spell.

I actually have a much bigger beef with spells like knock, invisibility, silence, and wraithstrike, as they can be used to make members of other classes redundant. But even then, my personal preference would be to re-level the spells or rewrite the other base classes to give them cool toys too, not take away the cool toys from the casters.

Zaydos
2010-10-25, 12:44 PM
You can always choose to use one type of action (say a move action) as a 'faster' grade of action (for example, a swift action). So you get a standard and a move, which you use for a standard (cast spell) and a swift (cast quickened spell).

Not in 3.5; you can use Standard Actions for Move actions. RAW you can't use Standard Actions for Swift Actions either.

gbprime
2010-10-25, 12:45 PM
You can always choose to use one type of action (say a move action) as a 'faster' grade of action (for example, a swift action). So you get a standard and a move, which you use for a standard (cast spell) and a swift (cast quickened spell).

This. :smallcool:

jiriku
2010-10-25, 12:47 PM
You can always choose to use one type of action (say a move action) as a 'faster' grade of action (for example, a swift action). So you get a standard and a move, which you use for a standard (cast spell) and a swift (cast quickened spell).

This is true only in limited situations.



You can convert full-round >> standard + move
You can convert standard >> move
You can convert swift >> immediate
But that's it. Sadly.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-25, 12:47 PM
This. :smallcool:

Last I checked, you cannot convert a Move to a Swift in 3.5e, actually.

So no. Not that.

Zaydos
2010-10-25, 12:50 PM
This. :smallcool:

Except that it doesn't work that way in 3.5; you can use a move instead of a standard, but RAW you can't use a swift instead of a Standard Action or a Move action. By RAW even if you spend a full-round you can't cast 2 quickened spells. If this was how it worked you'd have wizards casting 2 quickened spells a round.

Just check the SRD in Move Action it specifies

Move Action

A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Move Actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

Swift action lacks such a clause:

Swift Action

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

And in fact specifies you may only take 1 per turn.

gbprime
2010-10-25, 01:01 PM
Ah, must be a house rule then, considering the swift action refreshed by the acquisition of another full round action.

Assumes facts not in evidence, your honor, statement is withdrawn. :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-10-25, 01:34 PM
Yes it is that bad. The penalty is peanuts.

Being able to take your next turn now (as an immediate interrupt) rather than later is huge.

So? If your init is such that you go first, life is great.

Foresight is required to negate surprise completely in either case. So, that is an aspect of foresight, not an aspect of celerity OR nerveskitter/init optimization. Without foresight(most of the game), lets compare the two options.

Celerity: Higher level spell investment. Unusable when surprised, so it is of no help in avoiding surprise rounds. You do get to act first in later rounds, if you wish, at the cost of spending your entire round dazed(and thus vulnerable), spending a spell slot, and not having a swift action.

Init Optimization/nerveskitter: You get to act first if you wish, due to stacking init bonuses. You explicitly can use it even if surprised. You suffer no debuff as a result. You only consume your immediate action and 2nd level spell slot in the initial round of combat, yet keep the init placement throughout. Since there is no debuffing, you can ready actions or delay init if you wish without problems.

Easy win.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-25, 01:49 PM
The key here isn't "going first" in new rounds, but directly countering your enemies' actions. Normally, Celerity is situationally useful and something any arcane caster I'd play would have prepared in case I really needed it, but due to the daze it's no game-destroyer.

With Quick Recovery and a pumped up will save, go ahead and spam it for fun times.