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Marnath
2010-10-24, 02:55 PM
I didn't want to derail another thread, so I'll ask here: an ettin gets superior twf because each head controls a hand, so would each head get to cast it's own spell each round if you gave them a spellcasting class?

Ernir
2010-10-24, 03:01 PM
There is nothing in the Superior Two-Weapon Fighting description that indicates such a thing.

An ettin fights with a morningstar or javelin in each hand. Because each of its two heads controls an arm, the ettin does not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons.
In fact, I'm not sure there's anything but the monster statblock that indicates it gets the double full attack...

Urpriest
2010-10-24, 03:03 PM
There's a feat for doing exactly that, in Savage Species. Multivoice I believe.

Marnath
2010-10-24, 03:08 PM
There's a feat for doing exactly that, in Savage Species. Multivoice I believe.

Cool. Thanks. :smallsmile:

awa
2010-10-24, 03:08 PM
(2 morningstars +12/+7 melee (2d6+6) or 2 javelins +5 ranged (1d8+6)) copied from ettin stat block

now compare this to a marialith

Primary longsword +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/19-20) and 5 longswords +25 melee (2d6+4/19-20) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4)

it says nothing about it in the text but the stat block indicates it in fact gets 2 attacks with each mace

Tvtyrant
2010-10-24, 03:12 PM
Or make him a disciple of Demogorgon, then he has that ability and you know its RAW.

Or refluff the CR 9 aspect of Demogorgon as an Ettin.

Marnath
2010-10-24, 03:15 PM
While we're on it, what if anything should happen if say, one of the heads was killed? Partial paralysis, maybe with reduced base speed due to imperfect control over the other leg?

AslanCross
2010-10-24, 05:07 PM
Since the heads don't have their own HP the same way a hydra does, I'd just say that removing one of the heads somehow (ie, vorpal weapon) simply does not insta-kill the Ettin, and negates the Superior TWF ability.

dsmiles
2010-10-24, 06:59 PM
While we're on it, what if anything should happen if say, one of the heads was killed? Partial paralysis, maybe with reduced base speed due to imperfect control over the other leg?

I'd probably go with this. Sounds reasonable.

awa
2010-10-24, 07:03 PM
that are the creature bleeds to death even if its still got another head it has a finite amount of blood.

holywhippet
2010-10-24, 09:39 PM
Since the heads don't have their own HP the same way a hydra does, I'd just say that removing one of the heads somehow (ie, vorpal weapon) simply does not insta-kill the Ettin, and negates the Superior TWF ability.

Hmm,
This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)

Going by RAW you could see one of two things happening. Firstly, because they say "heads" you could argue that both automatically are removed.

Alternately it says "(if it has one)" - but an ettin doesn't have one. It has two, so the vorpal property can't work.

Akal Saris
2010-10-24, 09:51 PM
Personally, I'd rule that it removes a single head, but doesn't kill the ettin unless you roll a 20 twice. But I doubt it would ever come up..

holywhippet
2010-10-24, 09:58 PM
Personally, I'd rule that it removes a single head, but doesn't kill the ettin unless you roll a 20 twice. But I doubt it would ever come up..

I understand you reasoning, but a vorpal weapon is meant to be a "instant kill if possible" weapon. If it merely cuts off a single ettin head, how do you handle it? D&D isn't meant to deal with specific wounds - everything generally fights at 100% until it dies or is knocked out. Having a single head cut off would realistically just postpone death for a short time. The blood loss would be massive.

Marnath
2010-10-24, 10:03 PM
Well, anyone who can afford a vorpal sword can probably one-shot a 65hp ettin anyway, so I suppose it's not a big deal.

Lord Denyuar
2010-10-24, 10:39 PM
Instead of Ettin and you're allowed SS, play a large size creature with the multi-headed template (as large, you can get 3 more heads). Go get Giralleon's (sp) Blessing permancied for more arms and then go after multivoice if I remember correctly. Convince yoru DM that you should be able to take it three times or it should allow you 3 additional spells per round with 4 heads and 4 arms.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-24, 10:42 PM
Instead of Ettin and you're allowed SS, play a large size creature with the multi-headed template (as large, you can get 3 more heads). Go get Giralleon's (sp) Blessing permancied for more arms and then go after multivoice if I remember correctly. Convince yoru DM that you should be able to take it three times or it should allow you 3 additional spells per round with 4 heads and 4 arms.

Not really feasible unless you are playing gestal, you would too many cl to be an effective spellcaster or even a gish.

Andion Isurand
2010-10-24, 10:44 PM
Obah-Blessed template from Dungeon Magazine 136 is a fun one to look at.

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Cha
one extra pair of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+2 LA

-- or --

+4 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Cha
two extra pairs of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+3 LA

Psyren
2010-10-24, 11:52 PM
Alternately it says "(if it has one)" - but an ettin doesn't have one. It has two, so the vorpal property can't work.

In order to have two, you have to have one; even the most pedantic reading can't get around that basic math.

AslanCross
2010-10-25, 12:10 AM
In order to have two, you have to have one; even the most pedantic reading can't get around that basic math.

Yeah, I agree. It's pretty ridiculous for the vorpal to not work at all just because it has multiple heads, or for the vorpal weapon to decapitate all its heads. The point can be argued forever, but I think at some point people need to just take up some common sense and work with the DM to fix the ambiguous wording.

Marnath
2010-10-25, 12:14 AM
Sounds to me like the least complicated thing would be to adjucate that loss of one head is instantly fatal due to severe bloodloss.