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megabyter5
2010-10-24, 05:43 PM
I've noticed that on this forum, whenever a PrC is being discussed, someone mentions "early entry". As best as I can gather, that means using some sort of trick to meet the requirements before the level they intended you to reach before entering the class (generally 5). What I don't understand is that, since most of them have requirements like skills at rank 8, or a certain BAB, how can you get it early? It sounds cheesy.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-24, 05:48 PM
Normally you can't early-entry those types of PrC's. It's pretty easy to do it when it only involves certain level spells though.

Urpriest
2010-10-24, 05:49 PM
It is cheesy. In many cases it's pretty much the definition of cheese (not to say it's most extreme, merely that it's a very good example).

For example, for skill ranks: polymorph into a Dusk Giant and eat a whole lot of chickens, gaining HD from the Dusk Giant's ability. Reassign your skill points in some way (Psychic Reformation for instance), up to your new max ranks. As long as all the skill points you reassign are ones you had to begin with, RAW they stay there when you stop being a Dusk Giant. You thus have skills as high as you need, up to your skill points.

BAB, find a Warforged Warchanter to sing at you all day and all night using its BAB sharing ability until you have enough levels in the PrC that you qualify based on them instead.

There are less cheesy early entry tricks for other situations, but skills and BAB require some of the cheesiest.

megabyter5
2010-10-24, 05:49 PM
Normally you can't early-entry those types of PrC's. It's pretty easy to do it when it only involves certain level spells though.

How would you get that?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-24, 05:52 PM
It is cheesy. In many cases it's pretty much the definition of cheese (not to say it's most extreme, merely that it's a very good example).

For example, for skill ranks: polymorph into a Dusk Giant and eat a whole lot of chickens, gaining HD from the Dusk Giant's ability. Reassign your skill points in some way (Psychic Reformation for instance), up to your new max ranks. As long as all the skill points you reassign are ones you had to begin with, RAW they stay there when you stop being a Dusk Giant. You thus have skills as high as you need, up to your skill points.

BAB, find a Warforged Warchanter to sing at you all day and all night using its BAB sharing ability until you have enough levels in the PrC that you qualify based on them instead.

There are less cheesy early entry tricks for other situations, but skills and BAB require some of the cheesiest.

Ah, yeah, I always forget about Dusk Giants. Epic spellcasting before level 20? Yeah.....


How would you get that?

The feat that helps escapes me at the moment...it lets you sacrifice two spells of one level to cast a spell of 1 level higher. So if you only have level 2 spells you can burn two of them to cast a level 3 spell you know.

Some argue Sanctum spell lets you do it too, but that's pretty debatable.

megabyter5
2010-10-24, 06:02 PM
What book is this mysterious feat from?

Morph Bark
2010-10-24, 06:04 PM
Ah, yeah, I always forget about Dusk Giants. Epic spellcasting before level 20?

:smallconfused: How can you get Epic spellcasting before level 20 if getting it specifically requires being level 21, and then some other stuff? Turning into a Dusk Giant and then back wouldn't be of help there. (Admittably, I don't know what they are or where to find them, but I doubt they give you extra levels when you turn back to normal after Polymorphing.)

true_shinken
2010-10-24, 06:04 PM
What book is this mysterious feat from?

Versatile Spellcaster, from Races of the Dragon.
It only works for early entry with Warmage, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer.



:smallconfused: How can you get Epic spellcasting before level 20 if getting it specifically requires being level 21, and then some other stuff? Turning into a Dusk Giant and then back wouldn't be of help there. (Admittably, I don't know what they are or where to find them, but I doubt they give you extra levels when you turn back to normal after Polymorphing.)
Even if you did keep the extra hit dice, you would still keep the same amount of XP, so say goodbye to leveling up and getting higher level spells.

gbprime
2010-10-24, 06:06 PM
Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon. Allows a spontaneous caster to use 2 spell slots to cast a spell 1 level higher. You still have to know the spell, but for purposes of qualifying for a PrC, they never say you actually have to KNOW any, just be able to cast them. (And for DM's who insist on it, one word... Runestaff.)

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-24, 06:06 PM
:smallconfused: How can you get Epic spellcasting before level 20 if getting it specifically requires being level 21, and then some other stuff? Turning into a Dusk Giant and then back wouldn't be of help there. (Admittably, I don't know what they are or where to find them, but I doubt they give you extra levels when you turn back to normal after Polymorphing.)

Because you don't have to be level 21. You only have to have 24 ranks in some skills and 9th level spells. Using dusk giant cheese to get the requisite skill ranks and some fast progression PrC (Ur-Priest, Beholder Mage, etc) you can fulfill both well before level 20, as early as level 12-ish with Beholder Mage.

WinWin
2010-10-24, 06:09 PM
I thought that [epic] feats all had the requirement of level 21+

Is epic spellcasting a [general] feat?

Urpriest
2010-10-24, 06:12 PM
I thought that [epic] feats all had the requirement of level 21+

Is epic spellcasting a [general] feat?

The [epic] tag indeed requires level 21.

What has been left unmentioned is that getting [epic] feats in this manner requires Dragonwrought Kobold cheese as well (counting as an Old True Dragon, and thus as Epic).

Eldariel
2010-10-24, 06:14 PM
The [epic] tag indeed requires level 21.

What has been left unmentioned is that getting [epic] feats in this manner requires Dragonwrought Kobold cheese as well (counting as an Old True Dragon, and thus as Epic).

Also, having your composite level+HD exceed 20 makes you epic IIRC. So the same Dusk Giant (or Inspire Greatness or Awaken loop or other HD stack trick) trick should qualify you. But yeah, there's always Dragonwrought Kobold.

Now that I think of it, just Polymorphing/Shapechanging into a Dragon and being old enough could work. But...eeeh. Yeah.

Morph Bark
2010-10-24, 06:16 PM
Because you don't have to be level 21. You only have to have 24 ranks in some skills and 9th level spells. Using dusk giant cheese to get the requisite skill ranks and some fast progression PrC (Ur-Priest, Beholder Mage, etc) you can fulfill both well before level 20, as early as level 12-ish with Beholder Mage.

I presume then that you always pick Additional Magic Item Space (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#additionalMagicItemSpace), Armor Skin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#armorSkin), Energy Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#energyResistance), Epic Fortitude (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicFortitude), Epic Prowess (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicProwess), Epic Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicReflexes), Epic Reputation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicReputation), Epic Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness), Epic Will (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicWill) or Great Charisma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma)/Constitution/Dexterity/Intelligence/Strength/Wisdom at level 1?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-24, 06:22 PM
I presume then that you always pick Additional Magic Item Space (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#additionalMagicItemSpace), Armor Skin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#armorSkin), Energy Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#energyResistance), Epic Fortitude (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicFortitude), Epic Prowess (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicProwess), Epic Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicReflexes), Epic Reputation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicReputation), Epic Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness), Epic Will (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicWill) or Great Charisma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma)/Constitution/Dexterity/Intelligence/Strength/Wisdom at level 1?

As noted above, it involves other cheese as well. Being a dragon of age Old or older automatically qualifies you for epic feats. IIRC you can choose them as well if your class levels + HD from other sources is greater than or equal to 21, but I'm not 100% sure about that one.

gbprime
2010-10-24, 06:23 PM
Meh, I draw the line at an elf wizard who has visited a half dozen "crappy bonus feat" sites and taken levels in Dweomerkeeper so (s)he can Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos 10 times for free. :smallamused:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-24, 06:24 PM
So the same Dusk Giant (or Inspire Greatness or Awaken loop or other HD stack trick) trick should qualify you.

But when you turn back from a Dusk Giant, while you keep the skill points, you don't keep the HD, disqualifying you for the feat. I think.

Jack_Simth
2010-10-24, 06:28 PM
Versatile Spellcaster, from Races of the Dragon.
It only works for early entry with Warmage, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer.Theoretically also works on other spontaneous casters if you grab Heighten Spell as well. Then there's the Illuman trick with Improved Sigil(Krau) (Races of Destiny), Earth Sense (Races of Stone) + Heighten Spell + Earth Spell (Races of Stone). Divine Metamagic (Heighten Spell) (Complete Divine). Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane - sidebar feat, not in the main listing), and so on.

Some of these can be combined, others can't.

Zaydos
2010-10-24, 06:39 PM
I must ask a question about the true dragons of old or older + epic feats.

Why do they even state that? True Dragons of old or older have at minimum 23 HD (as dragons have 3 HD per age category beyond wyrmling, and I do not believe there are any official dragons with only 1 HD at wyrmling, I'm not sure about 2, and MM has only 3+). So they are already character level 21+.

Also if I wanted to go totally RAW it doesn't say they do not need the required character levels, only that they can take them without class levels. So all you'd need to be is a kobold with 21 racial hit dice :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-10-24, 06:42 PM
Theoretically also works on other spontaneous casters if you grab Heighten Spell as well. Then there's the Illuman trick with Improved Sigil(Krau) (Races of Destiny), Earth Sense (Races of Stone) + Heighten Spell + Earth Spell (Races of Stone). Divine Metamagic (Heighten Spell) (Complete Divine). Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane - sidebar feat, not in the main listing), and so on.

Some of these can be combined, others can't.

Doing this with Heighten is too damn cheesy... and debatable.
With Warmage/Beguiler/D. Necromancer it's very hard to argue, though.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-24, 06:44 PM
But when you turn back from a Dusk Giant, while you keep the skill points, you don't keep the HD, disqualifying you for the feat. I think.

Level 21+ isn't a prerequisite for the feat, technically. You can't take it unless you're level 21+, but if you suddenly go down levels you don't lose it...

Not that anyone would actually use that ruling.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-24, 07:12 PM
Heh, yeah. As a DM, I have an exceptionally strong stomach for cheese. I'll let players get away with some gouda.

There are even limitations to what I allow, and cramming epic spells into characters less than level 21 is one of them.

elonin
2010-10-24, 07:43 PM
Is there anything keeping you from learning epic spells in the same level as 9th level spells? It isn't early entry exactly but a bit quirky.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-24, 07:45 PM
Level 21+ isn't a prerequisite for the feat, technically.

Ah, right then. Carry on.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-24, 07:47 PM
Is there anything keeping you from learning epic spells in the same level as 9th level spells? It isn't early entry exactly but a bit quirky.

Nope, nothing, as you apply class levels before feats.

But only earning 9th level spells at level 21 is a bit odd.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-24, 07:50 PM
Also, having your composite level+HD exceed 20 makes you epic IIRC. So the same Dusk Giant (or Inspire Greatness or Awaken loop or other HD stack trick) trick should qualify you. But yeah, there's always Dragonwrought Kobold.

Now that I think of it, just Polymorphing/Shapechanging into a Dragon and being old enough could work. But...eeeh. Yeah.

While it technically qualifies you, you don't get a feat choice until you level, no? And with that ridiculous amount of HD, that may be challenging. Still, presuming you ever lose said HD, you face additional complications. Like, not meeting qualifications anymore, so losing the benefit anyway.

And nobody really wants the dusk giant HD permanently.

Technically, if you're willing to PaO yourself into a dragon, you can get away with a lot. That's actually worth doing permanently(golden dragon is traditional, I believe).

There's also the dragon template for DoE...loredrake was it? +2 sorcerer levels. That can be used for some fantastic early entry cheese for the right characters.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-24, 07:52 PM
BAB, find a Warforged Warchanter to sing at you all day and all night using its BAB sharing ability until you have enough levels in the PrC that you qualify based on them instead.

You can do the same with a tag team of Kensais, if you can find one.

Eldariel
2010-10-24, 08:13 PM
While it technically qualifies you, you don't get a feat choice until you level, no? And with that ridiculous amount of HD, that may be challenging. Still, presuming you ever lose said HD, you face additional complications. Like, not meeting qualifications anymore, so losing the benefit anyway.

And nobody really wants the dusk giant HD permanently.

Technically, if you're willing to PaO yourself into a dragon, you can get away with a lot. That's actually worth doing permanently(golden dragon is traditional, I believe).

There's also the dragon template for DoE...loredrake was it? +2 sorcerer levels. That can be used for some fantastic early entry cheese for the right characters.

Well, I guess you can e.g. DSC to force the feat immediately. Otherwise it depends much on how your game deals with leveling. If it happens after you have gained enough XP, you could just ramp enough HD and then proceed to level but if it's "Ding!" and you make the choices immediately, it'll be trickier. Still...well, this is all so theoretical that I ultimately wouldn't make a problem out of that.

true_shinken
2010-10-24, 08:13 PM
Well, I guess you can e.g. DSC to force the feat immediately. Otherwise it depends much on how your game deals with leveling. If it happens after you have gained enough XP, you could just ramp enough HD and then proceed to level but if it's "Ding!" and you make the choices immediately, it'll be trickier. Still...well, this is all so theoretical that I ultimately wouldn't make a problem out of that.

...I tend to say this a lot, but you could always sell your soul.

Il_Vec
2010-10-24, 09:04 PM
What I don't understand is that, since most of them have requirements like skills at rank 8, or a certain BAB, how can you get it early? It sounds cheesy.

There is a feat in cityscape (Primary Contact) that lets you put one rank in a skill above your normal maximum.

kryan
2010-10-24, 09:52 PM
Precocious Apprentice is another way, if you're dealing with a PrC that requires 2nd level spells - it allows you to cast a 2nd level spell at level 1. This is mostly convenient for dual-progression PrCs, and conveniently, dual-progression PrCs are better balanced with X/1 entry than they are with the 3/3 entry that most require. This is because most dual-progression PrCs are very bad.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-24, 09:59 PM
The only way I would endorse early entry is for Dual advancing prestige class, some of them are worthwile (eldritch disciple/theurge) and some are actuallygood (Anima mage I am looking at you!!!!)

kryan
2010-10-24, 10:04 PM
Well, Anima Mage is a bit different; if you call using Improved Binding "early entry", then I just don't know what to tell you. That seems intended to me, and as a result Anima Mage is one of two dual-progression PrCs worth taking as intended. There's not really a lot of point to using Precocious Apprentice there; burning a Feat to get in two levels earlier (but not save any spellcasting levels) doesn't seem worth it, barring the ability to change the feat later.

On the other hand, using Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige to qualify as a pure Wizard, but advance Binding (due to the extremely negligent wording on Anima Mage's progression), now that is extreme cheese. A Wizard 1/Anima Mage 10 is a possible build, and casts as a 11th level Wizard and binds as a 10th level Binder. Quite obviously this is not balanced.

Psyren
2010-10-24, 10:29 PM
One of my favorite theurges is Noctumancer. They HAD to know, when they allowed Shadowcasters to qualify for either side of MT, that some enterprising soul would combine the two.

But then, I love Shadowcasters in general - they suffer from "middle child" syndrome in so many ways.

gbprime
2010-10-24, 10:42 PM
There are good things to use early entry for, especially for non-powergamer builds. Sorcerer, for example, kinda blows for 6 levels or more until you can jump into a prestige class. Anything that allows you to enter a prestige class EARLIER so you get some kind of class abilities as you level up is a GOOD thing.

It was most recently used in a campaign I was in to allow the sorcerer to jump into Ruathar (Races of the Wild) after level 4, by taking Versatile Spellcaster and having a low level Runestaff on hand. This gave him better HP, saves, skills, and some class abilities at levels 5-7, before he jumped into the PrC he was really aiming for later.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-24, 10:49 PM
Well, Anima Mage is a bit different; if you call using Improved Binding "early entry", then I just don't know what to tell you. That seems intended to me, and as a result Anima Mage is one of two dual-progression PrCs worth taking as intended. There's not really a lot of point to using Precocious Apprentice there; burning a Feat to get in two levels earlier (but not save any spellcasting levels) doesn't seem worth it, barring the ability to change the feat later.

On the other hand, using Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige to qualify as a pure Wizard, but advance Binding (due to the extremely negligent wording on Anima Mage's progression), now that is extreme cheese. A Wizard 1/Anima Mage 10 is a possible build, and casts as a 11th level Wizard and binds as a 10th level Binder. Quite obviously this is not balanced.

Although using Improved Binding, is almost assuredly RAI, we don't know, so my group filed it under Early entry trick.

It is a pity anima mage has bad Bab, otherwise it would make a decent gish if you went a more Binder-heavy progression....

Psyren
2010-10-24, 11:09 PM
It is a pity anima mage has bad Bab, otherwise it would make a decent gish if you went a more Binder-heavy progression....

Who needs Anima Mage? Binder by itself is a good gish, especially if you add KotSS for the 5/5 BAB and 5/5 EBL.

You're already flying, shooting lightning, breathing fire, teleporting, summoning, healing etc. all while ignoring SR and immunity, and meleeing in full plate to boot; how much more gishy do you need it to be?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-24, 11:12 PM
Well, I guess you can e.g. DSC to force the feat immediately. Otherwise it depends much on how your game deals with leveling. If it happens after you have gained enough XP, you could just ramp enough HD and then proceed to level but if it's "Ding!" and you make the choices immediately, it'll be trickier. Still...well, this is all so theoretical that I ultimately wouldn't make a problem out of that.

DCS is an option, but generally not a free one. IIRC, those spells were fairly high, so the cost of this limits the levels from when this is practical. And epic spellcasting only helps you if you actually have 9th level casting, so that feats of limited use. Epic toughness, etc is viable, tho.

I guess technically it could be a way to grab the feat slightly earlier at level 17, but frankly, I don't think it matters much. Once you have level nine spells, things are pretty wonky anyhow.