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View Full Version : Bear Warrior+Wild Shape, the argument again?



Urpriest
2010-10-24, 08:05 PM
I've seen it argued that the Bear Warrior's transformation into a bear (and resulting stat boosts) doesn't stack with wildshape, because they are both polymorph effects and polymorph has a no-stacking rule. Is the no-stacking referred to one of those on page 172 of the PHB (Same Effect with Differing Results or One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant), or is it another such rule?

Please keep this thread bearable until the question has been answered. After that you can let your bear natures run wild.

Urpriest
2010-10-25, 08:32 PM
Apparently the requested rules clarification was unbearably grizzly. Perhaps one more attempt to panda to the masses before the thread hibernates.

Nick_mi
2010-10-25, 08:34 PM
Apparently the requested rules clarification was unbearably grizzly. Perhaps one more attempt to panda to the masses before the thread hibernates.

I see what you did there.

imperialspectre
2010-10-25, 10:03 PM
I think a better question than "do they stack or not?" is "why the hell would you have Druid, Barbarian, and Bear Warrior levels in the same character?"

Nick_mi
2010-10-25, 10:33 PM
I think a better question than "do they stack or not?" is "why the hell would you have Druid, Barbarian, and Bear Warrior levels in the same character?"

Avengic druid with a 1 level dip into bear warrior?

imperialspectre
2010-10-25, 11:13 PM
Nice, hadn't thought of that.

At any rate, I don't know of a RAW reason why the two don't stack. The alternate form text, which Wild Shape works from, specifically says that extraordinary special attacks derived from class levels are retained while in an alternate form (the example given is rage). There is nothing in the alternate form or polymorph texts to indicate that they cannot be stacked; while this may be absurd, it is also RAW-legal.

I would rule that these stack in the same way as Wild Shape stacks with the Bite of Were-Something spells in the Spell Compendium. I might (depending on the optimization level in the game) houserule that it doesn't work that way, or simply ban Wild Shape to begin with, but that's neither here nor there because the thread is about RAW.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 01:45 AM
Well, why would you want them to stack? what do you gain if they stack?

I'm not really seeing much.You'd either use up a rage to turn into a bear from whatever you were wildshaped into (possibly wasting the wildshape) or you use up a wildshape to turn into another animal rather than a bear or in addition to having turned into a bear if you wildshape after choosing to turn into a bear (as it's up to your discretion to transform when raging)...

Wings of Peace
2010-10-26, 02:59 AM
Apparently the requested rules clarification was unbearably grizzly. Perhaps one more attempt to panda to the masses before the thread hibernates.

Please keep puns to a minimum or this thread is going to be un-bearable.

Urpriest
2010-10-26, 12:21 PM
Well, why would you want them to stack? what do you gain if they stack?

I'm not really seeing much.You'd either use up a rage to turn into a bear from whatever you were wildshaped into (possibly wasting the wildshape) or you use up a wildshape to turn into another animal rather than a bear or in addition to having turned into a bear if you wildshape after choosing to turn into a bear (as it's up to your discretion to transform when raging)...

Turning into a bear with Bear Warrior gives bonuses to your stats, rather than replacing them, like a lycanthrope's hybrid form. The question is, can you get these bonuses on top of your wildshape stats?

And as for use, I was thinking Wildshape Ranger/Barbarian/Bear Warrior actually.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-26, 12:34 PM
Indeed - Bear Warrior adds bonuses to stats, Wild shaper replaces them wholesale as Polymorph. They're polar opposites.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-26, 12:41 PM
Stop that :smallbiggrin:

It is unbearable the puns.
Rater than Wild shape from druid why not a disciple of Bharri? It also gives at will polymorph.

jiriku
2010-10-26, 01:01 PM
While the rules might permit it, logically, I have trouble seeing how you'd continue to gain the stat boosts for being a bear once you become something other than a bear. Plus, you'd get into a furry party-balance situation if you use bear-rage, bear-wildshape and bite of the werebear all at once to become a bear-bear-werebear. AC, hit, and damage get thrown all out of whack.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 01:07 PM
bear-bear-werebear.

How unbearable...

bokodasu
2010-10-26, 01:10 PM
bear-bear-werebear

A much more dangerous version of duck-duck-goose...

HandofCrom
2010-10-26, 01:11 PM
What about an anthromorphic bear bear warrior who's been inflicted with ursine lycanthropy and has bite of the werebear cast on him?

The Glyphstone
2010-10-26, 01:15 PM
What about an anthromorphic bear bear warrior who's been inflicted with ursine lycanthropy and has bite of the werebear cast on him?

That would be the infamous Bearington Bearman the Bearbearian. An Anthromorphic Bear Were-Bear Bear Totem Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Bear Lord with a Bear Wild Cohort. And Improved Unarmed Strike, so he can kill things with his bear hands.

Eloel
2010-10-26, 01:16 PM
What about an anthromorphic bear bear warrior who's been inflicted with ursine lycanthropy and has bite of the werebear cast on him?

Grizzly or polar?

The Glyphstone
2010-10-26, 01:17 PM
Bearington only uses Black Bear, to keep him from needing Gestalt or Epic.

Kaeso
2010-10-26, 01:43 PM
Grizzly or polar?

I think it bearely makes a difference.

Urpriest
2010-10-26, 01:44 PM
Just to remind people of the purpose of this thread, since I did request we delay derailing it until it was answered: does anyone here think that RAW you can't have stacking bear wildshape and bear warrior stats? If so, do you base your conclusion on the passage mentioned in the OP? I really just want a clear idea of what's being argued, and my google-fu has been insufficient to find it.

HandofCrom
2010-10-26, 01:58 PM
On topic, wild shape and lycanthropcy are thr alternate form special power, though lycanthropcy includes that it adds stat bonuses instead of replacing. As a creature with multiple alternate forms, such as a vampire, cannot take more than one alternate form at a time (even though turning into a wolf-bat would be awesome), I think you cannot stack alternate forms. I'm not sure if bear warrior's ability is called alternate form, but if it is, I'd say you couldn't stack it with any other alternate form. If not, I'm not sure if you could do it.

However, if I remember correctly, bite of the werebear just provides enhancement bonuses and stacks as normal.

Z3ro
2010-10-26, 02:01 PM
On topic, wild shape and lycanthropcy are thr alternate form special power, though lycanthropcy includes that it adds stat bonuses instead of replacing. As a creature with multiple alternate forms, such as a vampire, cannot take more than one alternate form at a time (even though turning into a wolf-bat would be awesome), I think you cannot stack alternate forms. I'm not sure if bear warrior's ability is called alternate form, but if it is, I'd say you couldn't stack it with any other alternate form. If not, I'm not sure if you could do it.

This. I don't have CW in front of me, but if the bear form is listed as an alternate form, I don't think they'd stack. If it's listed as a form of rage (which I think it is) then by RAW they would stack (as listed in the text of alternate form). As a DM, I'd probably rule they stack, but that's just me.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 02:07 PM
I think he's right. While Bear Warrior's Bear Shape ability gives you bonuses instead of changing your stats to those of a bear (unlike nearly every other form of shape change OTHER than lycanthropy), it still explicitly turns you into a bear, complete with fur, claws, teeth, and grumpy disposition. The abilities you get are dependant on that form.

There are pretty clear rules on stacking muliple forms, IE they don't. If you Alter Self into a Troglodyte then Polymorph into a Troll, you lose the traits of the Trog you picked up because Polymorph supercedes Alter Self. Multiple changes to size and/or shape never stack. I don't think Bear Warrior would be an exception to that just because it gives bonuses rather than fixed abilities. It still changes your form, and its bonuses are based on the form you take.

Thats about as close to RAW as you are gonna get, methinks. If noone has any disagreements, I'd like to make a motion that we return to rediculous bear puns until the situation becomes to dire to bear.

HandofCrom
2010-10-26, 02:21 PM
We could discuss astrology. What's ursine?

Urpriest
2010-10-26, 02:24 PM
There are pretty clear rules on stacking muliple forms, IE they don't. If you Alter Self into a Troglodyte then Polymorph into a Troll, you lose the traits of the Trog you picked up because Polymorph supercedes Alter Self. Multiple changes to size and/or shape never stack. I don't think Bear Warrior would be an exception to that just because it gives bonuses rather than fixed abilities. It still changes your form, and its bonuses are based on the form you take.


Then please answer the question of the thread. Are those rules the ones on page 172 of the PHB, or are they not? That's all I'm trying to find out here.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 02:48 PM
I'd say its the latter. One effect makes the other irrelevant. If you Wild Shape into a lion, then bear rage, you'll turn from a lion into a bear (skipping tiger, oh my!). As a bear, you'll have bear stats and bear attack modes. Since you are no longer a lion, you won't have lion attack modes, stats, or abilities. When your rage ends, assuming your Wild Shape is still running, you'd shift back into a lion. As a lion, you'd have the MM physical stats for a lion. As a bear, you'd have your characters base physical stats, plus the bear bonuses.

You can't simultaneously be both a bear and a lion and a tiger (bliger?). Order of application would then be important. If you start as a bear and become a lion, you'd be a lion. If you started as a lion and became a bear, you'd be a bear.

nysisobli
2010-10-26, 02:52 PM
You can't simultaneously be both a bear and a lion

you sir have never heard of the legendary bion!

Z3ro
2010-10-26, 02:56 PM
I'd say its the latter. One effect makes the other irrelevant. If you Wild Shape into a lion, then bear rage, you'll turn from a lion into a bear (skipping tiger, oh my!). As a bear, you'll have bear stats and bear attack modes. Since you are no longer a lion, you won't have lion attack modes, stats, or abilities. When your rage ends, assuming your Wild Shape is still running, you'd shift back into a lion. As a lion, you'd have the MM physical stats for a lion. As a bear, you'd have your characters base physical stats, plus the bear bonuses.

You can't simultaneously be both a bear and a lion and a tiger (bliger?). Order of application would then be important. If you start as a bear and become a lion, you'd be a lion. If you started as a lion and became a bear, you'd be a bear.

Except that bear form gives you pluses to stats, rather than replacing them, like a lycanthrope. A lycanthrope basically is a human and a wolf, for example. Bear form can be looked at like that (unless it is listed as an alternate form, then they don't stack).

Eloel
2010-10-26, 02:57 PM
you sir have never heard of the legendary bion!

For convenience, people call it bison.

jiriku
2010-10-26, 02:58 PM
I expect you're going to find that it's a legal RAW loophole, but killed by a fairly straightforward application of RAI. The bear warrior's ability is phrased to provide bonuses, rather than replace your stats, but it's far more than coincidence that the bonuses provided are the exact same as the racial ability score bonuses a bear receives. If you de-bear yourself by turning into something unbearish, the bonuses ought to go away. Again, that's RAI, not RAW but it's reasonable, IMO.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 04:41 PM
Except that bear form gives you pluses to stats, rather than replacing them, like a lycanthrope. A lycanthrope basically is a human and a wolf, for example. Bear form can be looked at like that (unless it is listed as an alternate form, then they don't stack).

Except it states that you are 100% bear. You have the size, shape, attacks, and characteristics of a bear. The ability mods you gain are dependant on being in that form. If you aren't in that form, you don't gain the abilities. Another form supercedes the benefits. If you are in bear form, your bear abilities supercedes whatever your abilities were before. You can't be both a bear and a lion at the same time. Unlike lycanthropes, which explicitly have a hybred form with clearly defined stats, there are no stats for a half-bear half-lion hybred. In the absense of explicit exceptions such as lycanthropy, the rule that one form makes the other irrelevant holds true.

Z3ro
2010-10-26, 04:53 PM
Except it states that you are 100% bear. You have the size, shape, attacks, and characteristics of a bear. The ability mods you gain are dependant on being in that form. If you aren't in that form, you don't gain the abilities. Another form supercedes the benefits. If you are in bear form, your bear abilities supercedes whatever your abilities were before. You can't be both a bear and a lion at the same time. Unlike lycanthropes, which explicitly have a hybred form with clearly defined stats, there are no stats for a half-bear half-lion hybred. In the absense of explicit exceptions such as lycanthropy, the rule that one form makes the other irrelevant holds true.

Which makes sense, but may not be RAW (still no one has gotten back on whether bear form is explicitly an alternate form, or just an ability). If it's just an ability, like rage for a barbarian, you can use it will shapeshifted and still get its benefits. I know it doesn't make much sense, but this is D&D we're dealing with.

In essence, your last statement is the issue. If bear form isn't actually an alternate form, it does stack.

Urpriest
2010-10-26, 06:19 PM
Alrighty, sounds like my question's been answered. If it's the "one effect makes the other irrelevant" rule, then I've satisfied myself that it falls into the category of "reasonable cheese" rather than "stupid cheese" in my own cheese-sorting-system.

So i herd u liek bears...

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 07:17 PM
From the text in Complete Warrior:


Bear Form (Su): A bear warrior can transform into a bear (similar to the polymorph spell) while in a rage or frenzy.<snip>

It has the same (similar to polymorph) that Wild Shape did (before the errata), indicating that its the same effect creating different results.

tahu88810
2010-10-26, 07:52 PM
bear-bear-werebear.

Like this? (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=184076)

VirOath
2010-10-26, 08:48 PM
Mind you, just to make things hairy, I would personally houserule that Wildshape and Bear Warrior stacked, on the clause that they both used the same animal. So limiting the cheese, as your stats have to be lower than the bear's to start out with, wildshape giving you the bear stats, then Bear Warrior giving you the bear bonuses. I'd call it bearly necessary though, as I bet many players could crank their stats above that in the first place.

Considering they are spending levels and rage to become more Beary by Wildshape and Bear Warrior stacking, it would let them become more Bear than a bear.

grarrrg
2010-10-26, 09:09 PM
bear-bear-werebearA much more dangerous version of duck-duck-goose...

You win +1 internets.


Like this? (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=184076)

Hmm... Needs MOAR BEAR

tahu88810
2010-10-26, 09:11 PM
Hmm... Needs MOAR BEAR

I didn't feel like going above level 20, or I'd have added enough levels of Druid to get a bear companion, and then I'd have taken Wild Cohort for extra beariness.

OracleofWuffing
2010-10-26, 09:18 PM
I'm not a teddy bit surprised that people still care about bears this much, and turn it into such a gummi situation. It's always nice to know I can go to a place where people won't Pooh the topic all up.

...

... Owl.

grarrrg
2010-10-27, 07:59 AM
...

... Owl.

*facepalm*

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-27, 11:44 AM
I feel the need to mention, the Primeval from Frostburn works the same way as bear warrior with the stats manifesting in the form of pluses.

So you could wildshape into a bear, bear warrior rage, then Primeval dealyo into a a dire bear.

jiriku
2010-10-27, 11:47 AM
'Twould be a most dire situation.

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-27, 11:51 AM
'Twould be a most dire situation.

YEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!

grarrrg
2010-10-28, 09:56 AM
YEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!

I can bearly stand it when people mess up a joke.

You forgot the *sunglasses pull*