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Koury
2010-10-24, 08:58 PM
So, I thought I'd get some feedback on some houserules I'm using. Mostly want to make sure I didn't accedentally enable some monster combo or anything.

{table=head]House Rule | Reason
All classes get +2 skill points per level (+8 at 1st). | Everyone needs more skills.
All weapons are finessable. | Enable different concepts.
Weapon Finesse has no prereq. | Don't think it needs one.
Scythe is a Shadow Hand weapon. | Enable a players character concept.
Max HP at all levels. | They'll need it.
Feats at level 1 and every even level after. | Enable more choice.
Fractional BAB | It just makes sense to me.
Swordsages gain Adaptive Style at level 2. | Swordsage recovery mechanic is just too crappy otherwise and no one likes a feat tax.
TWF, ITWF and GTWF are all one feat, scaling when you gain 6 BAB and 11 BAB | TWF is too feat heavy otherwise.
Half Elf gains Bonus Feat as Human | Player wants to be a Half Elf, may as well make it suck less.
Avenging Strike does not require good alignment or an evil target. | So it is more usable.
Crusaders Smite ability is now an autohit that deals max damage. It cannot crit. | So its worth being a 1/day ability.[/table]

There may be a few more that I'm forgetting, but I'll add them if I think of them.

Anyway, thoughts? Criticisms?

Demons_eye
2010-10-24, 09:02 PM
Question: If smite auto hits can you use power attack with it?

WarKitty
2010-10-24, 09:03 PM
Not familiar with the last two, but looks fairly balanced overall. Most of the changes benefit already lower-tier classes.

Merk
2010-10-24, 09:03 PM
I like all except the last. I'd rather smite be less effective than autohit full damage, but more frequent to use.

Koury
2010-10-24, 09:12 PM
Question: If smite auto hits can you use power attack with it?

Good question, hadn't thought of it. The Crusader doesn't have PA.

Honestly, as its once a day, I wouldn't have an issue with it. Even on a someone with pounce, since it only applies to one attack and the 1st one is most likely to hit anyway.


Not familiar with the last two, but looks fairly balanced overall. Most of the changes benefit already lower-tier classes. Avenging Strike is a feat that allows +Cha Mod on to-hit and damage rolls (Cha Mod)/day. Normally requires target to be evil and a good alignment to take. Crusaders Smite is same as Paladin, as far as I know.


I like all except the last. I'd rather smite be less effective than autohit full damage, but more frequent to use.

I like the idea of a big hit you can bring out when you absolutly need it to hit. I'm open to suggestions though. :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2010-10-25, 04:23 AM
Your skill change diminishes the value of skill-rich classes. You're doubling the skills of classes like Wizard, and only giving a 25% boost to classes like Scout.

If that doesn't sink in, try flipping it around. How about giving all classes +2 spells at each level using the Wizard's progression? Everybody needs more spells, too. :smallsmile: A 17th level Scout with 2 9th level spells daily (and 2 at each lower level) would rather diminish the value of the Wizard with 3 9th level spells (plus 4 8th level, 5 7th level, and 6 at all lower levels), don't you think?

Koury
2010-10-25, 04:30 AM
Well, that Scout wouldn't get much use from those spells with no slots to put them in. :smallbiggrin:

Joking, of course. While I see your point, in theory, I find that class skill lists are much more importiant for determining skillmonkey status in practice. All that seemed to happen from the bonus skill points is that people took more Knowledge skills (and the Rogue/Fgt/Swordsage took Knowledge Devotion).

I'll keep that in mind in the future, but I don't see it as quite so drastic. It's not as if Rogues don't now get 10+int per level (and I always run out of skills too quickly, even with Rogues).

FelixG
2010-10-25, 04:40 AM
I have to disagree with the "give everyone spells!" idea because then theres no real point to playing a low tier class, might as well just play a wizard.

I really like the bonus skill points personally, it makes the fighter feel less....well like junk!

Overall i like your house rules! I would surely enjoy playing with them for sure

Susano-wo
2010-10-25, 04:48 AM
+2 skills to everyone is not the same as +2 Wizard spell levels. First off, rogues still get +6 over, say fighters, and have a much better class skill list. Second, the benefit is, as you are aware, given that you point out how ridiculous it is, much higher. giving characters powerful abilities that their classes don't normally get =/= boosting an ability that has utility but not overwhelming power that everyone does get.

Really isn't a big deal to add 2, and helps lower skill classes to be able to buy some skills, and higher skill classes to buy more. Sounds groovy

I'd disagree with the Swordsage getting adaptive style. The recovery mechanic is crappy, but that's why they get so many maneuvers readied. BUt at the same time, it doesn't seem to game breaking :P

Eldariel
2010-10-25, 04:54 AM
Yeah, all of those are fine and indeed, most seem borderline obvious (fractional saves limiting the +2 from good save to once per save should be there too, along with PBS + Precise rolled together). I'd give people more skills tho. Honestly, it just opens up options and makes characters more self-sufficient. Class skills pretty much ensure skill focused classes have their role secure anyways so that's not a problem.

I'm working with 6-8 bonus skills (depending on class) myself and it's working out perfectly; characters have room for fluff skills if they feel so inclined and can be both, competent socially in whichever way they feel inclined AND in hiding and the like.

Koury
2010-10-25, 04:55 AM
I'd disagree with the Swordsage getting adaptive style. The recovery mechanic is crappy, but that's why they get so many maneuvers readied. BUt at the same time, it doesn't seem to game breaking :P

But watching them spend an entire round to gain a single maneuver back is so painful :smallamused: I honestly haven't seen a SS that didn't take it, and see no reason to make a feat tax of it. I know that I gave out more feats then usual, so feat taxes hurt less, but still.

I pushed it to level 2 SS to kinda discourage a level dip for it from other classes. *shrug* :smallbiggrin:

I appreciate the opinions though, thats why I posted here. :smallsmile:

Susano-wo
2010-10-25, 04:57 AM
NP

I guess it just doesn't seem like you would need to recover all that often. Myabe in practice it happens more, I guess. haven't gone through that many fights with my one SS char:smallsmile:

FelixG
2010-10-25, 04:58 AM
Well if you want them to recover more, perhaps have them roll to see how many they recover with that round or have it equal one of their modifiers?

Koury
2010-10-25, 05:03 AM
Yeah, all of those are fine and indeed, most seem borderline obvious (fractional saves limiting the +2 from good save to once per save should be there too, along with PBS + Precise rolled together). I'd give people more skills tho. Honestly, it just opens up options and makes characters more self-sufficient. Class skills pretty much ensure skill focused classes have their role secure anyways so that's not a problem.

I'm working with 6-8 bonus skills (depending on class) myself and it's working out perfectly; characters have room for fluff skills if they feel so inclined and can be both, competent socially in whichever way they feel inclined AND in hiding and the like. I thought about limiting the +2's to saves to just one, but decided to let it slide since no one is multiclassing excessively. If anyone went the archery route I'd certainly roll Precise and Point Blank together though.


NP

I guess it just doesn't seem like you would need to recover all that often. Myabe in practice it happens more, I guess. haven't gone through that many fights with my one SS char:smallsmile: A boost and a maneuver every round will kill your reserve quick. :smallyuk:


Well if you want them to recover more, perhaps have them roll to see how many they recover with that round or have it equal one of their modifiers? Meh, the obvious one would be basing it of Wisdom, but giving Adaptive Style as a bonus feats solves it handily, I believe. :smallsmile:

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-25, 10:34 AM
isn't it one of the standard things when you do fractional saves to make the +2 and the +2/3(?) from high and low saves respectivly a one time deal? I'm pretty sure they mention that in UA. i don't get why you wouldn't do it, it actually makes it harder to track (arguably) if you don't.

I also really don't see the point of the sword sage thing. combat doesn't really go long enough for them to run out in most of the games i play.

otherwise every thing looks fine.

Greenish
2010-10-25, 10:50 AM
Scythe somehow fits Shadow Hand school. Hey, since you helped the half-elf, how about half-orcs?

Emmerask
2010-10-25, 11:26 AM
I think you are giving the half-elf a bit too much of a boost there with the bonus feat. Itīs not overpowered but together with the +2 skillpoints each level(+8 at first) from the other houserule I donīt quite see any mechanical reason to play a human anymore :smallwink:

Telonius
2010-10-25, 12:21 PM
TWF Feat scales with level - I actually use this one myself. I also change ITWF and GTWF. Those feats decrease the TWF penalties by 1 each time, so the Ranger Combat Style isn't useless. A character with GTWF who wields a light weapon in the off-hand can make twice his normal attacks in a round with no penalties.

Kylarra
2010-10-25, 12:27 PM
Give humans able learner for free to make up for the half-elf getting half their schtick. :smalltongue:

Eloel
2010-10-25, 12:30 PM
I'd say a 50% increase in base skillpoints, instead of +2, would keep the spirit of skillmonkeys.
So, instead of 2/4/6/8, you get 3/6/9/12.

BRC
2010-10-25, 12:36 PM
How will your TWF houserule work with TWF rangers?
Would you let your Crusader take the "Extra Smite" Feat from Complete Warrior? Also, define Max damage. Does that include extra damage dice. If the Crusader smited with a Flaming Greatsword would that deal 18 damage automatically? Or 12+1d6.

I agree with your "No Prereq for Weapon Finesse". It's essentially a feat tax for Rogues anyway, but I'm not sure about Making all weapons Finessable. It's your decision of course, but my mental image has trouble with finessing a greatsword.

SilverLeaf167
2010-10-25, 01:03 PM
There was a topic about Weapon Finesse just a while ago. Many people use this: give it for free, but if you actually take the feat, you can finesse any weapon. Sounds good to me.

Last Laugh
2010-10-25, 01:21 PM
Completely unrelated, can you teach me to make awesome tables just like you?

gbprime
2010-10-25, 01:29 PM
Feats at level 1 and every even level after.

This could break things. Normally by level 10, a PC has 4 feats, 5 if human. Wizard 10 would have 7 or 8 (scribe scroll plus 2 bonus feats), and Fighter 10 would have 10 or 11. (Not that anyone does this...)

With your new feat schedule, everybody has 1 extra feat by level 4, 2 extra by level 8, 3 more by level 12, and 4 more by level 16. Giving a fighter bonus feats like this allows them to take all the options they love PLUS Tome of Battle maneuvers. And giving a Wizard too many bonus feats is just dangerous on face.

You'd better keep a firm hand on the power curve if you're going to do this.


All classes get +2 skill points per level

Woo hoo! Combined with what you have above, Ranger with Education and Knowledge Devotion feats is looking pretty bad ass. Doubly so if Eberron source material is available (Revenant Blade)! :smallamused:

Tyndmyr
2010-10-25, 01:37 PM
They are fine, balance wise. Go nuts.

jiriku
2010-10-25, 01:58 PM
All are good except for bonus skills, bonus feats, and bonus hp.

Bonus skills: I would agree with this for non-full-casters, as they genuinely are built too skill-poor to be effective. However, wizards, clerics, druids, bards and the like do not need additional skill points. They have spells to replace their reliance on skills.

Bonus feats: This is concerning to me, for the reasons gbprime outlined: metamagic feats are generally better than martial feats, so the tendency will be to exacerbate the power gap. Also, the ability to climb feat trees more quickly means much more power, sooner. As a caster, I've now got the slots to seriously hit the metamagic reducers and that dramatically increases my power. The fighter gets what, Iron Will and some tactical feat? If you want more feat choice, I'd encourage you to simply allow retraining so players can experiment more freely, rather than increasing the power disparity by injecting more feats into the game.

Bonus hp: I don't see the point. Players don't "need" more hp. If they want higher hp totals, let them put a high starting score in Con, buy Con-enhancing items, take classes with large HD, and invest in Improved Toughness. If they want to survive more hits, let them invest in better AC, and saves, miss chances, and defensive class features like Evasion and Abrupt Jaunt. If they die a lot, then either a) there's a serious power imbalance between PCs and you've got some people whose characters can't hang with the big dogs, or b) they're making poor tactical decisions and need to use the options above and learn to play more defensively, or c) you're building overwhelming encounters and need to use more appropriate opponents. All of these things can be fixed without changing the rules of the game.

Ruinix
2010-10-25, 02:19 PM
i like all the houserule here, specially the max hp one cause roll 1, 2 or 3 a few times totally screw frontliners class with D12 or D10 HD.

SP houserule is the other sweet one.

Koury
2010-10-25, 02:25 PM
Scythe somehow fits Shadow Hand school. Hey, since you helped the half-elf, how about half-orcs? If someone wanted to play one I'd think about it. Maybe let them choose one of the -2 stats to take away or also give +2 Con. But no one is playing one at the moment.


I think you are giving the half-elf a bit too much of a boost there with the bonus feat. Itīs not overpowered but together with the +2 skillpoints each level(+8 at first) from the other houserule I donīt quite see any mechanical reason to play a human anymore :smallwink: *looks over sheets* Hmm, no one is playing a Human at all. And Humans would still get the +1 per level for even more skill goodness.


TWF Feat scales with level - I actually use this one myself. I also change ITWF and GTWF. Those feats decrease the TWF penalties by 1 each time, so the Ranger Combat Style isn't useless. A character with GTWF who wields a light weapon in the off-hand can make twice his normal attacks in a round with no penalties. Hmm, I'll think about that. For some reason I'm adverse to the idea. Don't know why. Maybe if they would normally gained the feat via class features that would work. Or maybe if they actually qualify for the Improved and Greater versions that will work (they get them as long as the qualified for the base feat).


Give humans able learner for free to make up for the half-elf getting half their schtick. :smalltongue: Thats a good idea.


I'd say a 50% increase in base skillpoints, instead of +2, would keep the spirit of skillmonkeys.
So, instead of 2/4/6/8, you get 3/6/9/12. I'll consider that in the future. Not changing it now, as I don't want to force everyone to change their skill points.


How will your TWF houserule work with TWF rangers?
Would you let your Crusader take the "Extra Smite" Feat from Complete Warrior? Also, define Max damage. Does that include extra damage dice. If the Crusader smited with a Flaming Greatsword would that deal 18 damage automatically? Or 12+1d6.

I agree with your "No Prereq for Weapon Finesse". It's essentially a feat tax for Rogues anyway, but I'm not sure about Making all weapons Finessable. It's your decision of course, but my mental image has trouble with finessing a greatsword. Touched on the Rangers above. For Crusader max damage, I'm gonna go with maxed everything for now, including any boosts (he has Burning Blade). Thing about my players is, if something ends up way too strong, I can tone it back and they'll be fine. They're cool like that. As for Finessing large blades:

(Big Picture)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/starkmaster/ff7-sephiroth.jpg?1288034074


There was a topic about Weapon Finesse just a while ago. Many people use this: give it for free, but if you actually take the feat, you can finesse any weapon. Sounds good to me. Approval. Cool. :smallsmile:


Completely unrelated, can you teach me to make awesome tables just like you? {table=head]Header 1 | Header 2 | Header 3
Stuff1 | Stuff2 | Stuff3
Stuff4 | Stuff5 | Stuff6 [/table]

creates

{table=head]Header 1 | Header 2 | Header 3
Stuff1 | Stuff2 | Stuff3
Stuff4 | Stuff5 | Stuff6 [/table]



This could break things. Normally by level 10, a PC has 4 feats, 5 if human. Wizard 10 would have 7 or 8 (scribe scroll plus 2 bonus feats), and Fighter 10 would have 10 or 11. (Not that anyone does this...)

With your new feat schedule, everybody has 1 extra feat by level 4, 2 extra by level 8, 3 more by level 12, and 4 more by level 16. Giving a fighter bonus feats like this allows them to take all the options they love PLUS Tome of Battle maneuvers. And giving a Wizard too many bonus feats is just dangerous on face.

You'd better keep a firm hand on the power curve if you're going to do this.

Woo hoo! Combined with what you have above, Ranger with Education and Knowledge Devotion feats is looking pretty bad ass. Doubly so if Eberron source material is available (Revenant Blade)! :smallamused: Hmm, I've got a bit of experiance with PbP games that run with feats every odd level. This is a step up, but not by much. I mean, the only difference I can think of is Fighter going from 'dip if you need some feats' to 'only if you really want some dungeoncrasher'. I'm fine with that. :smallwink:


They are fine, balance wise. Go nuts.
Your approval fills me with... whats the word? Oh yeah, joy. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-10-25, 02:34 PM
If someone wanted to play one I'd think about it. Maybe let them choose one of the -2 stats to take away or also give +2 Con. But no one is playing one at the moment.

Ahem....lol

Then again, I guess as a Dragonborn Water Half-Orc, I've pretty much squeezed those grapes for the whole vintage...

Still, I'll take a +2 Con! :)

VirOath
2010-10-25, 02:35 PM
Adding +2 to all is devaluing skill monkeys a bit but really helps out low skill classes. Adding a bigger boost, like +3 or +4 to classes with a base 6 skill points or more would improve the gap again and bring back more value. Face it, even with 15 sp a level, a rogue still has to choose.

And to make the smite usable more often, make it /encounter like the rest of what ToB is. To add to the punch, make it deal double damage, or add bonus dice per 2 levels, something along that range. Sadly I do see an Auto-hit Max Damage attack as an easy loophole to a later combo.

And, swordsaged

Eldariel
2010-10-25, 02:40 PM
Adding +2 to all is devaluing skill monkeys a bit but really helps out low skill classes. Adding a bigger boost, like +3 or +4 to classes with a base 6 skill points or more would improve the gap again and bring back more value. Face it, even with 15 sp a level, a rogue still has to choose.

With 17 per level, you can still only cover some areas of expertise as Rogue. Indeed, increase in skill points doesn't really hurt them at all; on the contrary. Now their skill list is more valuable and thus, Rogue-like (skill monkey) levels in general become more powerful. Fighter needs a vastly expanded skill list to truly work out even with 8 more skillpoints per level (e.g. Spot, Listen and Sense Motive need to be in class for them).

Eloel
2010-10-25, 02:41 PM
I've also seen the "all class skills are auto-maxed" approach. Works out great, if a bit dull. (Factotums become... strong?)

Koury
2010-10-25, 02:48 PM
All are good except for bonus skills, bonus feats, and bonus hp.

Bonus skills: I would agree with this for non-full-casters, as they genuinely are built too skill-poor to be effective. However, wizards, clerics, druids, bards and the like do not need additional skill points. They have spells to replace their reliance on skills.

Bonus feats: This is concerning to me, for the reasons gbprime outlined: metamagic feats are generally better than martial feats, so the tendency will be to exacerbate the power gap. Also, the ability to climb feat trees more quickly means much more power, sooner. As a caster, I've now got the slots to seriously hit the metamagic reducers and that dramatically increases my power. The fighter gets what, Iron Will and some tactical feat? If you want more feat choice, I'd encourage you to simply allow retraining so players can experiment more freely, rather than increasing the power disparity by injecting more feats into the game.

Bonus hp: I don't see the point. Players don't "need" more hp. If they want higher hp totals, let them put a high starting score in Con, buy Con-enhancing items, take classes with large HD, and invest in Improved Toughness. If they want to survive more hits, let them invest in better AC, and saves, miss chances, and defensive class features like Evasion and Abrupt Jaunt. If they die a lot, then either a) there's a serious power imbalance between PCs and you've got some people whose characters can't hang with the big dogs, or b) they're making poor tactical decisions and need to use the options above and learn to play more defensively, or c) you're building overwhelming encounters and need to use more appropriate opponents. All of these things can be fixed without changing the rules of the game.
I'm really not sure what huge advantage Wizards are gaining from two more skill points. They need Concentration, K:Arcana and Spellcraft. They (assuming they can actually cast spells) can get those. The rest usually get dumped into Knowledges. It's not as if they suddenly ignore CC skill costs or caps.

As for feats exasperating the melee/caster issue, I'll deal with it if it comes up, but my Wizard player is new to 3.5. She's smart, mind you, and has helped the group a ton (I'm pretty sure she saved the group in our campaign opening battle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9612958&postcount=65)), but I don't think she even knows what the term metamagic is right now. She has metamagic and uses it, but yeah.

And finally, HP. I'm fairly confident the group is well balanced with each other and, after watching them handle that last battle, I'm pretty sure they have a good grasp on strategy. Do I throw too-hard battles at them? Don't know yet, the campaign only just started and my first battle was intentionally big and on the difficult side. But in the end, I want them to have full HP to give myself a bit of a buffer on mistakes. Am I scared to kill my PCs? Not at all (ask the players who dipped into single digit HP :smallamused:). But I like the breathing room I have. In the end, the HP thing is more for myself then anything else.

Koury
2010-10-25, 02:53 PM
Ahem....lol

Then again, I guess as a Dragonborn Water Half-Orc, I've pretty much squeezed those grapes for the whole vintage...

Still, I'll take a +2 Con! :)

:smalleek:! Oh yeah. In my mind, you're a Dragonborn. Go ahead and take the Con. That puts you at what, 18? Well, with your 15 AC, you'll probably need it anyway. :smallamused:

Coidzor
2010-10-25, 02:54 PM
Your skill change diminishes the value of skill-rich classes. You're doubling the skills of classes like Wizard, and only giving a 25% boost to classes like Scout.

Wizard: 2 skills per level from class. 18 int = +4 bonus. 16 in = +3 bonus. So, either 5 or 6 skill points per level.

+2 skill points per level from house rule. 7-8 skill points per level.

That would put them on par with a rogue or scout who had a 10 intelligence with a more restricted class list. and also be less than doubling anyway.

Now whose skill points would it actually double? Fighters and Clerics, because they usually will dump it unless they need a 13 int for something. And they get 2 skill points per level and are generally considered skill starved.


*looks over sheets* Hmm, no one is playing a Human at all. And Humans would still get the +1 per level for even more skill goodness.

Ok, but you forgot to tell us how many are playing half-elves, the new human. :smallwink:

gbprime
2010-10-25, 03:01 PM
Human Ranger, 16 int. Education and Knowledge Devotion feats. He's got 12 skill points per level to power his combat bonuses with 2 wpn fighting with his quarterstaff, and can use power attack with it well. Make him a Mystic Ranger and give him Sword of the Arcane Order, and he's throwing lots of Arcane spells too.

Other foo includes Eilserv School style or even a 1 level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Turning and more Devotion feats to send his AC into the stratosphere or buff him even further. (Or both. Protection, Animal.) Add nightsticks to season to taste. =P

Point being, with the extra skill points and feats, he can do all this before level 8. And this concept isn't even the worst of it, as we've warned. :smallamused:

Coidzor
2010-10-25, 03:10 PM
Human Ranger, 16 int. Education and Knowledge Devotion feats. He's got 12 skill points per level to power his combat bonuses with 2 wpn fighting with his quarterstaff, and can use power attack with it well. Make him a Mystic Ranger and give him Sword of the Arcane Order, and he's throwing lots of Arcane spells too.

Other foo includes Eilserv School style or even a 1 level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Turning and more Devotion feats to send his AC into the stratosphere or buff him even further. (Or both. Protection, Animal.) Add nightsticks to season to taste. =P

Point being, with the extra skill points and feats, he can do all this before level 8. And this concept isn't even the worst of it, as we've warned. :smallamused:

So he's got 12 skill points instead of 10 to pump up the 6 knowledge skills that power knowledge devotion. So he can have 2 additional non-knowledge skills in addition to the more usual survival, search, hide, and move silently... like, say, spot and listen.

Not seeing a problem on that end.

The advantage of the feats would be entirely separate from that of the skills, even going by your given example.

gbprime
2010-10-25, 03:12 PM
Okay, it's your game after all. But this might be why you believe everyone needs max hit points. :smallbiggrin:

Koury
2010-10-25, 03:13 PM
Human Ranger, 16 int. Education and Knowledge Devotion feats. He's got 12 skill points per level to power his combat bonuses with 2 wpn fighting with his quarterstaff, and can use power attack with it well. Make him a Mystic Ranger and give him Sword of the Arcane Order, and he's throwing lots of Arcane spells too.

Other foo includes Eilserv School style or even a 1 level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Turning and more Devotion feats to send his AC into the stratosphere or buff him even further. (Or both. Protection, Animal.) Add nightsticks to season to taste. =P

Point being, with the extra skill points and feats, he can do all this before level 8. And this concept isn't even the worst of it, as we've warned. :smallamused:

I don't know what Eilserv School Style is, but of the above, the only thing the skills are gaining him is a +1-+3 on to-hit/damage. Thats fine, since he blew a ton of his points to get it.

SotAO+Mystic Ranger being strong has nothing to do with my houserules. All of the above is possible anyway. You used 4 feats, by my count (assuming the style is a feat). Human at level 6 gets 4 feats normally.

Koury
2010-10-25, 03:17 PM
Ok, but you forgot to tell us how many are playing half-elves, the new human. :smallwink:

Just one. Got a Half Elf, a Warforged, a Dragonborn Water Half Orc, a Rakshasa (from the boards here), a Jermlaine and a Whisper Gnome. I think he needed the boost. :smallbiggrin:

gbprime
2010-10-25, 03:22 PM
Eilserv School is from Underdark, requires Wpn focus too, so that's 5 feats. Bonus damage with staves, the more charges in the staff the bigger the damage. But the biggie is when you hit twice with the staff, you can activate a charge out of the staff on yourself or your target as a free action.

Whack, whack, boom. Done by level 6, when normally it would take til level 9. Monsters evaporate quickly under this kind of pressure, and giving them more hit points is not really a solution.

jiriku
2010-10-25, 04:32 PM
I'm really not sure what huge advantage Wizards are gaining from two more skill points. They need Concentration, K:Arcana and Spellcraft. They (assuming they can actually cast spells) can get those. The rest usually get dumped into Knowledges. It's not as if they suddenly ignore CC skill costs or caps.

I think we're both looking at the same facts but just drawing different conclusions. We both agree that wizards gain relatively little from extra skill points. My conclusion from that fact is that since a) giving the wizard more skills doesn't fix any kind of defect that might be present in the class, and b) giving the wizard any amount of free power, however small, merely makes an overpowered class more overpowered, you should not give the wizard freebies.

Conversely, look at, say, the paladin. The paladin has a fair skill list, but Int is a dump stat for him, so he'll rarely be able to do more than dip his toes into it. The paladin benefits dramatically from +2sp/level. Moreover, the paladin is a limited class that struggles to find a role in many parties. Giving the paladin more skills fixes a defect. You should definitely give the paladin more skill points.

tl;dr Don't overdose the patient; apply the medicine only where it's needed.

Coidzor
2010-10-25, 04:58 PM
b) giving the wizard any amount of free power, however small, merely makes an overpowered class more overpowered, you should not give the wizard freebies.

The counter to your argument is that it's a negligible amount of extra power, if indeed, it actually empowers them, which has yet to be shown.

And the lack of skillpoints on the part of clerics, and potentially even druids, prevents them from being able to do things they should be perfectly capable of doing without using spells.

Though I do agree with your idea of changing the base skill points each class gets to one that feels more suitable to your group, I'm just perfectly comfortable with doing away with the 2+int skill point category.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-25, 04:59 PM
Plus, it's more elegant to apply one terse houserule to everyone than to include a long list of who benefits and who does not.