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CalistonTB
2010-10-25, 04:49 PM
Hi everyone, first time poster here!

To avoid tl;dr: I'm looking for some advice on building a melee character that resolves attacks as touch attacks.

Here's why:

I'm playing in a 3.5e game with some broken house rules that I'd like to make work in my favor. The DM is using a homebrew rule where ALL armor bonuses (including natural armor) are going to damage reduction. In addition, half of the BAB of the PC or monster is applied to AC. The result is an enviroment where spellcasters are relatively even MORE powerful, and melee types are penalized for having to make melee attacks.

The party is understandably stacked with spellcasters at this point. As a result I've been playing a d6 stacking sneak attacker, but its proving to be largely ineffective. Rather than add another spellcaster to the party I'd like to stay a melee attacker. As the DM ruled during the last session that touch attacks would bypass the damage reduction provided by armor, I think I see a way to remain viable, and perhaps even quite powerful (I hope).

I've been thinking about a Monk/PsyWar build with Talashatora, but I'd appreciate any other ideas or brainstorms on how to use/abuse this house rule by making a lot of devastating touch attacks.

Thanks in advance!

gallagher
2010-10-25, 04:53 PM
consider going into non-fullcasting classes. for instance, a hexblade or bard might prove to be very capable, as they will have better BAB and therefor better armor, and you will be able to give lots of touch attacks (the bard has free proficiency with a whip)

but if spellcasters are flooding everywhere, you might wanna go with spellthief.

Susano-wo
2010-10-25, 04:56 PM
maybe I'm missing something, but how does making touch attacks exploit the rule? doesn't it just put you back to where you would have been using normal rule?
I mean, it does sound like a nice way to get around the ridiculousness of the AC you are dealing with, but its not any more of an exploit, if that makes any sense
(also, is he adding DR onto characters with armor? and whats the magic sitch? are armored characters also loaded up with magic enhancements to their AC?)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-25, 05:05 PM
You could grab one level of Pyrokineticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) (the sonic variant (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) is recommended) to get the touch attack whip. It uses ranged touch attacks instead of melee, but you can use any feat with it that can be applied to a standard whip such as Power Attack. Point Blank Shot will always add +1 to attacks and damage, and you'll want Precise Shot. You can't flank with ranged attacks so don't bother trying to use sneak attack with this. That can be added into pretty much any build, though you'd need to be able to meet the 'special' prerequisite somehow. You could go with a Maenad and say he destroyed something with his racial Energy Ray ability for example.

Another way to make touch attacks would be via Persistent Wraithstrike, which usually means some sort of gish build. Something like Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 4 would be able to use Metamagic Effect to persist Wraithstrike at level 10. A Cleric with the Spell domain could use Anyspell to prepare and cast Wraithstrike with DMM: Persist as early as level 5. You already have a party full of spellcasters, but usually a spellcaster makes a better melee combatant than a dedicated melee class.

Keld Denar
2010-10-25, 05:44 PM
Suel Arcanamach would be a pretty good gishy build here. Enter it as a NaenHoon Illumian (Races of Destiny) on a Pally4/Duskblade2 chassis and you can potentially persist 2 spells per day. Pick Wraithstrike as one of them, and the other can be any other Abjuration, Transmuation, or Illusion you can think of. I'd suggest Greater Mirror Image, given that it regens back up to 8 images between combats, but there are some other goodies too.

AslanCross
2010-10-25, 05:53 PM
If you can use ToB, the Warblade and Swordsage have access to Emerald Razor starting level 3, which turns your attack into a touch attack. It's great with Power Attack. Since a Warblade can renew his maneuvers every other turn, Emerald Razor is going to consistently help you get past that DR.

Diarmuid
2010-10-25, 06:07 PM
Warlock with Eldritch Glaive?

lsfreak
2010-10-25, 06:27 PM
Paladin2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/ArbjurantChamp5/Sacred Exorcist1. Sacred Exorcist qualifies you for DMM:Persist. You're a spellcaster, yes, but it's almost entirely to buff up your melee attacks. Persist Wraithstrike on yourself. Also buff your armor into the stratosphere via a combination of good armor (you have 0%ACF if you've got mithril twilight feycraft fullplate, and there's always Greater Luminous Armor from BoED), persisted Shield, and maybe a few other spells.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-25, 06:55 PM
Depends on which books your allowed. In SRD you want to go Necromancer, they have half of the touch attacks on the spell book (the majority of the rest are in evocation) including several really really mean ones (finger O death). If you have more books you might consider Necro specialty with Pale Master, because it gives you unlimited undead and some nice backup touch attacks from your arm graft.

If you do touch melee, get weapon finesse, then dex and primary caster stat. You will have better defense and the damage isn't based on str bonuc anyway. Also, you can then synergize ranged and melee touch attacks, giving you lots of options. Melee for Save-or-S/D and ranged for direct damage (orbs and rays).

If you wanted to deal with DR on rogue you could go Arcane Trickster, so your touch attacks add 7d6 sneak attack damage. You will do roughly equivalent to a warlock, but with full casting! You can also get a ring of Wizardry 0 to get 12 shots of ray of frost a day.

Finally, you can play a warlock with a flaming burst glaive, giving you extra fire damage to your touch attacks. I would take wizard over this due to displacement, but its your call.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-25, 06:57 PM
Warlock with Eldritch Glaive?
Or Warlock with Hideous Blow and natural weapons

One of the most effective touch attackers I've seen was a cleric. You could be a LG (or perhaps LN) Cleric of Wee Jas, and with approval of your DM, have yourself able to spontaneously channel negative energy, despite your alignment (and take Spontaneous Healer, CDiv p.84 so you can touch undead as well.)

Incarnate is also an option (Lightning Gauntlets,) though a fairly weak one, or perhaps I just don't know how to make the class playable.

Keld Denar
2010-10-25, 07:23 PM
Sacred Exorcist qualifies you for DMM:Persist.

Technically, it does, but you can't use it that way without another feature like Alternative Spellsource or such. The errata for DMM explicitly calls out that the spell HAS to be divine. Thats why I suggested NaenHoon Illumian. Its usable 2x/day and doesn't have the arcane/divine distinction.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-10-25, 07:26 PM
Or Warlock with Hideous Blow and natural weapons

One of the most effective touch attackers I've seen was a cleric. You could be a LG (or perhaps LN) Cleric of Wee Jas, and with approval of your DM, have yourself able to spontaneously channel negative energy, despite your alignment (and take Spontaneous Healer, CDiv p.84 so you can touch undead as well.)

Incarnate is also an option (Lightning Gauntlets,) though a fairly weak one, or perhaps I just don't know how to make the class playable.

did you just recomend hideous blow... o god no, one of the worst incants for warlocks. Even melee warlocks.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-25, 07:53 PM
did you just recomend hideous blow... o god no, one of the worst incants for warlocks. Even melee warlocks.

Yeah, it is, I don't think I was recommend it so much as saying that it was an option.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-25, 08:49 PM
Paladin2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/ArbjurantChamp5/Sacred Exorcist1. Sacred Exorcist qualifies you for DMM:Persist. You're a spellcaster, yes, but it's almost entirely to buff up your melee attacks. Persist Wraithstrike on yourself. Also buff your armor into the stratosphere via a combination of good armor (you have 0%ACF if you've got mithril twilight feycraft fullplate, and there's always Greater Luminous Armor from BoED), persisted Shield, and maybe a few other spells.

DMM only works on divine spells, you cannot DMM: Persist arcane spells (CD errata (http://wizards.com/dnd/files/CompDiv_Errata09102004.zip)). Only spellcasters who prepare their spells can use exalted spells, spontaneous casters don't get access to (Greater) Luminous Armor, it's not even available to choose as a spell known.

Psyren
2010-10-25, 09:20 PM
DMM only works on divine spells, you cannot DMM: Persist arcane spells (CD errata (http://wizards.com/dnd/files/CompDiv_Errata09102004.zip)). Only spellcasters who prepare their spells can use exalted spells, spontaneous casters don't get access to (Greater) Luminous Armor, it's not even available to choose as a spell known.

Exalted Arcanist fixes that :smallsmile: but it's not the best choice for a gish.

@ OP: A glaivelock is probably your best bet, imo.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-25, 09:25 PM
Other option is to use the Stormguard Warriors option... battle tempo(?) the one that lets you make touch attack that doesn't deal damage,and on the next round give you a damage bonus (5 ffor every successful attack IIRC) with a stong one hit strike (emerald razor,_____ nightmare blade, or the stone dragons maneuvers that bypass DR)...combine it with a gish with access to Wraitstike and profit.

lsfreak
2010-10-26, 12:36 AM
DMM only works on divine spells, you cannot DMM: Persist arcane spells (CD errata (http://wizards.com/dnd/files/CompDiv_Errata09102004.zip)). Only spellcasters who prepare their spells can use exalted spells, spontaneous casters don't get access to (Greater) Luminous Armor, it's not even available to choose as a spell known.

Yea, those are rather embarrassing slips on my part :smallsigh: Granted, you can still Alternate Spell Source a spell into being DMM-able, but that's probably not worth the feat unless you're pumping your TU checks through the roof for persisting a whole bunch of spells. At high levels, you'd be able to persist Wraithstrike without help, though probably not useful for the OP.

Another persisted wraithstrike option would be 3 levels in incantatrix, which may be worth the lost hp/BAB if you've got a bunch of buffs you want persisted.

As for sanctified spells, I never noticed that. That seems awfully... arbitrary.

Rixx
2010-10-26, 04:46 AM
Pathfinder Paladin. Smite Evil ignores all types of damage reduction, even untyped.

CalistonTB
2010-10-26, 09:33 AM
maybe I'm missing something, but how does making touch attacks exploit the rule? doesn't it just put you back to where you would have been using normal rule?


The DM's logic is "If the target isn't getting the benefit of his/her armor under core rules, then he/she shouldn't get it under these house rules either". Therefore, as touch attacks ignore armor bonus they would bypass any damage reduction granted by armor.

Thanks for the great response everyone! A lot to digest, but all good directions to explore.

To provide a bit more info, most sources are allowed except ones from outside the region (we are in Faerun, so Eberron etc are out). Party is level 12-14.

Persistent Wraithstrike is looking very very tasty.

Iceciro
2010-10-26, 09:46 AM
Deep Impacting Psywarrior 4/Warblade1/PsiwarriorX/PrCs.

Taking Warblade 1 at 5th level means you get access to Emerald Razor immediately (because the way that Initiator Level works is awesome), so you have an utterly absurd number of ways to make touch power attacks.
I support it and I'm sure someone else can break it much further. Also, you get Expansion as well as a bunch of neat gishy things to do to tie you to the megacaster party. Psychic Meditation is a requirement.

Combat round1: Charge in with Emerald Razor for your first attack, at charging full power attack.
Round 2: Burn Psifocus for Deep Impact strike at full power attack. Swift action recovers manouvers.
Round 3: Emerald Razor at full power attack. Enemy should be dead by now - spend your move action to recover psifocus via meditation. Next round, charge in with Deep Impact, swift action recovers manouvers... repeat.

--
Also, you can find all sorts of crazy things to do with this build. Take some levels of spellthief and the psythief feat. Then, use Sapphire Nightmare Blade, because that expressly makes your enemy flatfooted against the attack - OH LOOK LOADS OF DAMAGE AND STOLE UR STUFF.

EDIT: Even better, you Sapphire Nightmare Blade on the Deep Impact strike in round 2. They're flatfooted against a melee touch AC attack that does sneak attack damage and steals a spell. We're looking at maybe AC14 on a really good day.

Greenish
2010-10-26, 09:59 AM
Combat round1: Charge in with Emerald Razor for your first attack, at charging full power attack.You can't use Charge and Emerald Razor on the same round unless you have extra actions from somewhere.

Iceciro
2010-10-26, 10:05 AM
...You're right. Sorry.

You could always just not charge. It's two points, and the AC hit sucks. especially with the variant rule. It still works beyond that, though, as far as I am aware.

awa
2010-10-26, 11:18 AM
shape soul meld feat from magic of incarnium
you can get a melee touch attack (lightning gauntlets or ranged touch attack (dissolving spittle) (d6 damage) with only one feat.

Diarmuid
2010-10-26, 01:41 PM
Or Warlock with Hideous Blow and natural weapons

One of the most effective touch attackers I've seen was a cleric. You could be a LG (or perhaps LN) Cleric of Wee Jas, and with approval of your DM, have yourself able to spontaneously channel negative energy, despite your alignment (and take Spontaneous Healer, CDiv p.84 so you can touch undead as well.)

Incarnate is also an option (Lightning Gauntlets,) though a fairly weak one, or perhaps I just don't know how to make the class playable.

How does Hideous Blow + Natural attacks = Touch attacks?

jiriku
2010-10-26, 03:25 PM
Persistent Wraithstrike is looking very very tasty.

It is indeed. Three ways to get it:
1) Naenhoon illumian
2) Cleric with spell domain, using anyspell to prepare wraithstrike as a divine spell and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell to persist it.
3) Just put a wand of wraithstrike in a wand chamber inside your weapon and use it constantly. At your level the gp cost of occasionally buying replacement wands is insignificant.

If your Strength is not high, you might also consider persistent ice axe, which is easier to pull off.

Susano-wo
2010-10-26, 04:48 PM
The DM's logic is "If the target isn't getting the benefit of his/her armor under core rules, then he/she shouldn't get it under these house rules either". Therefore, as touch attacks ignore armor bonus they would bypass any damage reduction granted by armor.

Thanks for the great response everyone! A lot to digest, but all good directions to explore.

To provide a bit more info, most sources are allowed except ones from outside the region (we are in Faerun, so Eberron etc are out). Party is level 12-14.

Persistent Wraithstrike is looking very very tasty.

Ah, that makes sense then (both from a logical perspective and a 'exploiting' one. :P well, good luck with it! (if there ever was a rule to be exploited... :P)

CalistonTB
2010-10-27, 09:07 AM
2) Cleric with spell domain, using anyspell to prepare wraithstrike as a divine spell and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell to persist it.

How well do you think this would pair with Sacred Fist?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-27, 11:55 AM
How well do you think this would pair with Sacred Fist?

If you can use (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED, then go ahead and use Sacred Fist. Be sure to get a 3rd level Pearl of Power to recover Anyspell, so you can cast it a second time to get Shield and DMM: Persist that as well. Also note that you can cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Magic Vestment on your (Greater) Luminous Armor and Shield spells, as it adds an Enhancement bonus to your current Armor/Shield bonus. With DMM: Persistent Divine Might you'll get a decent AC from BAB, Wisdom, and Shield, amazing DR from your converted Armor bonus, and opponents will still suffer a -4 penalty to hit you for the Luminous Armor effect. Be sure to pick up Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike, and cast Greater Magic Weapon on your primary unarmed strike each day.

CalistonTB
2010-11-19, 07:18 PM
Looks like the final product is going to be:
Naenhoon Illumian Monk2/Cleric2/Duskblade3/Sacred Fist10/Enlightened Fist3 with the Spell domain providing persistent Wraithstrikes via the Naenhoon Illumian's racial ability.

Unarmed strikes delivered as touch attacks + sacred/fire dmg + touch spell as part of full attack

Or another option:
Naenhoon Illumain Monk2/Cleric2/Sacred Fist10/Swordsage6
with the Spell domain providing persistent Wraithstrikes via the Naenhoon Illumian's racial ability.

Unarmed strikes delivered as touch attacks + sacred/fire dmg + Setting Sun maneuvers