[D&D] Bellisario Maxim on Drow Society

[Aron Times]

Ever since I learned the word, "drow," from playing Baldur's Gate 2, I was intrigued by drow society. A misandrist, matriarchal society of powerful elves who live in the lightless depths of the Underdark. However, the more I read about drow, the less it made sense to me.

The way drow are portrayed in most D&D literature makes little sense. Most of the stuff I've read depict drow as doing what they do for the evulz. Unlike other traditionally evil humanoids like orcs and goblins, drow do not have the advantage of overwhelming numbers with which to threaten the civilized races. How a drow ever manages to reach high-enough levels without getting backstabbed is beyond me.

So, fellow Playgrounders, how do you make sense of drow society? How are they even able to pose a threat to outsiders when they spend all their time backstabbing each other?

[dsmiles]

So, fellow Playgrounders, how do you make sense of drow society? How are they even able to pose a threat to outsiders when they spend all their time backstabbing each other?

After reading the "The Legacy" trilogy, I think I understand the second question.

Every so often, a powerful (read: favored by Lolth) priestess comes along, like Matron Banrae (Baenrae?) and forges the usually unruly drow society into a lethal weapon to attack outsiders. Plus, each house can be individually deadly to smaller societies like the svirfnelbin when they send out large patrols, and such. They also have common enemies, like (again) the svirfnelbin and the elves, so that it turns into another "the enemy of my enemy" shtick, and the alliance lasts only so long as they are fighting a common enemy. Hope that helped a little.

[Arbane]

As written? They DON'T work. Not without everpresent divine intervention.

Make them Lawful Evil, and their society starts making SLIGHTLY more sense, but it's still hopelessly screwed up.

[SurlySeraph]

That's kind of the point. Drow society is horribly dysfunctional, and the only reason it didn't collapse millennia ago is because Lloth is constantly stepping in to fix things as they break.

[dsmiles]

That's kind of the point. Drow society is horribly dysfunctional, and the only reason it didn't collapse millennia ago is because Lloth is constantly stepping in to fix things as they break.

I thought it was the other way around, given their strict hierarchy and unforgiving laws. They always struck me as naturally Lawful Evil, or at worse Neutral Evil, and Lolth was always sticking her meddling nose in to shake things up, by favoring a different house this week, or whatever, and forcing them to shift towards Chaotic Evil for a while.

[SurlySeraph]

The two aren't mutually exclusive; Lolth creates hideously unstable situations by giving and withdrawing her favor constantly, and picks up the pieces whenever she goes too far.

[dsmiles]

The two aren't mutually exclusive; Lolth creates hideously unstable situations by giving and withdrawing her favor constantly, and picks up the pieces whenever she goes too far.

I can see that. If left without a deity, however (as they have been in my campaign world because Cthulhu ate Lolth's essence), I feel like they would "default," as it were, to LE instead of CE. Oh, sure, there'd be a few dissenters (Jarlaxle & his band, Drizzt, etc) that wouldn't swing that way, but I think the general drow populace would.

[TheThan]

Cthulhu ate Lolth's essence

This is awesome.
/thread

[dsmiles]

This is awesome.
/thread
I was going to just say "Cthulhu ate Lolth." But that image is just disturbing.

[dgnslyr]

I was going to just say "Cthulhu ate Lolth." But that image is just disturbing.

It's no worse than what she deserves.

[Yora]

As I see it, almost all stories about the crazy drow society is actually about members of the high nobility, the 1000 richest and most powerful of their societies. We get barely any info about how life for the commoners goes, or even for the lower noble houses, that can't afford pissing of any merchant and killing a couple of slaves every day.
If you assume that only the highest caste is that bat**** crazy, but the rest of the race lives just in harsh and unforgiving conditions, it's a society that might actually be sustainable and survive against all kinds of threats and difficulties.

[Tiki Snakes]

He did, did he?
Heh. No comment. Giggity

I tend to favour a generally renaissance italy-ish inspired take. Rival houses, city states ruled by the most powerful house or alliance of house in the region, intruige, murder and sexy parties. Basically Decadent, but in alignment terms I guess it makes more sense to me as a generally lawful-ish society than a chaotic one.

But I also think that to some degree the distinctions break down when you try to apply them in too much depth to something like the Drow.

[Aron Times]

I guess I pre-empted myself when I stuck the Bellisario Maxim in the thread title. Basically, drow society serves as a source of antagonists for the heroes, and really doesn't hold up to intense scrutiny. It just doesn't make sense as written.

[Ilmryn]

I can see that. If left without a deity, however (as they have been in my campaign world because Cthulhu ate Lolth's essence), I feel like they would "default," as it were, to LE instead of CE. Oh, sure, there'd be a few dissenters (Jarlaxle & his band, Drizzt, etc) that wouldn't swing that way, but I think the general drow populace would.

Precisely. According to Drow of the underdark, the monster manual entry says NE just because drow are torn between chaotic and lawful tendecies. They are simply both lawful and chotic at the same time, which makes them neutral on average.

[mucat]

I've always found that the nature of Drow society, especially as portrayed in the Forgotten Realms setting, really strains suspension of disbelief. A species with a long biological lifespan, low birth rate, and slow maturation to adulthood cannot have a culture of frequent (literal) backstabbing and a "life is cheap" mentality. They wouldn't replace their numbers fast enough to avoid dying out.

This is especially true when you look at Drow military strategy with respect to outsiders: as portrayed, a random band of mid-level adventurers can routinely kill a few dozen Drow mooks, before any powerful Drow even bother to take notice. Where the hell are they getting new mooks?

Any time elves or dwarves are in conflict with shorter-lived races, they have to take the attitude that "trading losses" is an unacceptable strategy. If elves slaughter a hundred invading orcs, at the cost of the lives of three elven defenders, then victory goes to the orcs. They will replace those hundred soldiers far sooner than the elves replace their three.

If a long-lived species is to survive among fast-reproducing rivals, they must avoid wars when possible, and plan meticulously when they do fight, aiming for as near to zero losses as possible. (And/or make heavy use of expendable, fast-reproducing minions.) Internally, they must avoid murdering or crippling the potential of one another. It's not a matter of morality, but of survival. Long-lived beings who don't develop this kind of culture would be extinct already.


EDIT: Heheh. Maybe someday I'll run a campaign in which Drow act like the expendable, faceless beings that they are in Forgotten Realms canon...and then have the whole thing finally start to make sense when the players discover the cheap and efficient Drow Mook-Cloning Labs.

[dgnslyr]

The drow are acutally clone troopers? Now, everything makes sense...

[Kalirren]

I've always found that the nature of Drow society, especially as portrayed in the Forgotten Realms setting, really strains suspension of disbelief. A species with a long biological lifespan, low birth rate, and slow maturation to adulthood cannot have a culture of frequent (literal) backstabbing and a "life is cheap" mentality. They wouldn't replace their numbers fast enough to avoid dying out.

This is especially true when you look at Drow military strategy with respect to outsiders: as portrayed, a random band of mid-level adventurers can routinely kill a few dozen Drow mooks, before any powerful Drow even bother to take notice. Where the hell are they getting new mooks?

Any time elves or dwarves are in conflict with shorter-lived races, they have to take the attitude that "trading losses" is an unacceptable strategy. If elves slaughter a hundred invading orcs, at the cost of the lives of three elven defenders, then victory goes to the orcs. They will replace those hundred soldiers far sooner than the elves replace their three.

If a long-lived species is to survive among fast-reproducing rivals, they must avoid wars when possible, and plan meticulously when they do fight, aiming for as near to zero losses as possible. (And/or make heavy use of expendable, fast-reproducing minions.) Internally, they must avoid murdering or crippling the potential of one another. It's not a matter of morality, but of survival. Long-lived beings who don't develop this kind of culture would be extinct already.


EDIT: Heheh. Maybe someday I'll run a campaign in which Drow act like the expendable, faceless beings that they are in Forgotten Realms canon...and then have the whole thing finally start to make sense when the players discover the cheap and efficient Drow Mook-Cloning Labs.

This. This is made of win.

That said, in most of the more functional depictions of drow societies I've seen, what's more significant than the matriarchy is the culture of widespread inequality and slavery. You can -still- have a society that frequently revels in the gratuitous killing and mutilation of people, if by "frequent" you mean "frequent" by elven standards, and the violence rarely spreads up to the bloodbound aristocracy. This makes even more sense when you consider the possibility that most drow mooks are probably half-drow who grow up in a drow society. They're the pawns. They probably reproduce and die much faster than the cultural elite do, too.

Basically, classism is more important than intra-class warfare. Only the wealthiest and most powerful of Matrons ought to be able to keep the other Matrons down. Most the other houses ought to have trouble maintaining social control over the common rabble.

[Psyren]

win post

Put succinctly, WotC has a hard-on for Drow and, in their eagerness to have the PCs face them, make them far more common than their birthrates and politics should allow. This force-demotes too many of them to mook status as a result.

A band of Drow should be as rare an encounter as a group of mindflayers, even underground.

[mucat]

This makes even more sense when you consider the possibility that most drow mooks are probably half-drow who grow up in a drow society. They're the pawns. They probably reproduce and die much faster than the cultural elite do, too.

That would make sense. Back to the idea of "fighting through cheap minion proxies", with the twist that outsiders can't always tell at a glance who are the expendable short-lived minions and who are the "real" Drow.

[Hat-Trick]

Well, if you make them breed as fast as humans, the problem goes away, or at least lessens. I've been keeping up with Drowtales, and the prelude gives me the impressions that one drow female will birth many children, who will birth many children and so on to form a clans military/body.

[Psyren]

Well, if you make them breed as fast as humans, the problem goes away, or at least lessens. I've been keeping up with Drowtales, and the prelude gives me the impressions that one drow female will birth many children, who will birth many children and so on to form a clans military/body.

They aren't really elves at that point anymore though... they're graceful orcs or something.

[Hat-Trick]

Who says elves have to have low fertility? Let alone the Drow.

[mucat]

Who says elves have to have low fertility? Let alone the Drow.
Well, part of the mystique of dealing with elves, friendly or hostile, is "This person was outwitting smarter things than you, two centuries before you were born. Since then, she's learned a lot more." Take away the long lifespan, and you lose a lot of what makes them scary or impressive.

[Hat-Trick]

They'd still have it, just a faster birthrate.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, I pretty much feel like I have to add a touch of Unseelie Fey in order to get more of the machinations and avoid the, why haven't they A. fragmented and have their own little places or B. slaughtered one another questions.

Hadn't really thought of the half-drow mooks angle though, probably will crib that when/if I use 'em. Did basically have it so that the deaths were usually of slaves and pawns with drow usually only dying when they got caught breaking or trying to break da rules of their games.

I view them as capable of near-human reproduction speeds but set up in such a way that they prefer to optimize their reproduction by consorting with fiends and dragons and other things that will give them either powerful soldiers or more capable minions who are nevertheless incapable of taking their place. I'd say that like humans though, they only have a finite number of periods/eggs, so they will use a male drow for breeding if they have nothing better on hand to prevent an egg going to complete waste or they'll need an heir/lieutenant for something or as a spare to be kept secret. So the more full-blood drow in a family, it's either doing really bad or feels it's doing really well and needs those full-blooded drow daughters to act as lieutenants after taking something over or is making a very risky bluff.

Also, they love killing children but if they get caught the game is such that the offenders are abandoned or even given over to the aggrieved party as punishment for being bad enough to get caught.

To explain why they don't put all their efforts into asbestos cribs...

[Hat-Trick]

Like that, yeah.

[Kurald Galain]

I think certain numbers are exaggerated. Sure, the drow are infighting all the time and backstab each other a lot. That does not mean that every day there will be ten new corpses in every house. If you picture this as more machiavellian scheming and less outright stabbing, it becomes more plausible.

If a non-drow noble hears two or three instances of a drow being killed by other drow, then he'll likely conclude that drow kill each other "all the time". And, well, he's correct, but that does not mean "every day".

[HenryHankovitch]

The worst thing about drow is D&D novel writers. Most of their problems in characterization stem from bad writers depicting them (especially the priestesses) as psychopathic, idiotic comic-book villains. I mean, Malice Do'Urden? He might as well have named her "Darth Jerkass."

So here's the way I see drow, for roleplaying purposes.

1) A much higher breeding rate than surface elves, perhaps even approaching human levels. This is generally canonical--it gets referenced in the novels. And this is "purebred" drow, not counting the half-breeds and such that the slaves might be birthing. Also, the novels generally highlight the idea that the drow make extensive use of other races for cannon-fodder: goblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.

2) Sexual politics are way more complex than "all women rule over all men." Yes, the priestesses and matrons are at the top; the most powerful positions are all female. But there are a lot of powerful males beneath them--veteran warriors, mercenary leaders, skilled rogues and assassins, and most of all the wizards. The way I see it, the matriarchy becomes less and less strict as you get into the lower classes. A powerful male wizard or veteran warrior is not going to have to kowtow to a commoner female. The books hint at this, too; Gromph Baenre is depicted as keeping low-status noble females as mistresses. OTOH, there's a certain amount of decorum that accompanies this. Even low-class females probably enjoy a certain amount of respect and deference due to the matriarchy in general (again, the books hint at a near-universal taboo against raping drow females, and the scarcity of pureblood drow prostitutes).

3) The upper classes scheme more than they fight. I prefer to imagine matrons and powerful priestesses as political creatures: jockeying for power, trying to influence allies and discredit rivals. Assassinations and turf-wars happen, but are relatively scarce, and tend to be self-correcting. A House that fights a bloody war against a rival might win, but will be vulnerable to other Houses in turn, so it's an incredible risk to undertake. This is a major departure from their depiction in novels, where the main characters are ganking people left and right without any thought to repercussions. I prever to see a drow matron as being more like Atia of the Julii from HBO's Rome: ruthless and debauched, sure, but not insane or stupid.

4) Not all cities are Menzoberranzan; not everyone worships Lolth. This is canonical as far as official game material goes, but tends to get forgotten in video games and novels. There are cities where Vhaeraun dominates, or even where no priesthood in particular is the dominant force. There are mercenaries and gangs who are practical instead of devout. There are rival gods who have cults even in Lolth-dominated cities.

5) The drow have to band together to survive. Above all else, the drow are well aware that they live in a hostile environment surrounded by creatures that would like to literally eat them alive. Infighting, most of the time, has to take a back seat to common survival or conquest. This also tends to support the status quo: people are more willing to put up with a bloody, Stalinist government when they know that even worse things are outside the walls trying to kill them. Very few drow have the ability or resources to escape to the surface; there's a whole lot of Underdark in between.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Obligatory Drow Society Link (http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20100321) :smallbiggrin:

[Sleepingbear]

The drow are acutally clone troopers? Now, everything makes sense...

It also explains all the Drizzt clones...

Just gave me an idea for an Underdark adventure.

[dsmiles]

Obligatory Drow Society Link (http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20100321) :smallbiggrin:

Obligatory Drow Pic
http://www.equinoxshard.com/images/drow-hierarchy.gif

[Aron Times]

I find that the way illithid society is depicted is much more believable than drow society. For a species of aberrations from the Far Realm, they behave much more human than the drow. How the infinitely more well-organized illithid haven't conquered the drow yet is beyond me.

[Hat-Trick]

They find no challenge in it. That or they already have.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, if we assume that Driders are the ones that give birth to the Drow, then they can have hundreds of Drow at a time. So just alter the society so that most Drow are born to Driders, and only nobles are born to other Drow because Driders only giver birth to males.

So now we have a reason females are dominant, why there are so many males to throw away, and an actual reason to have Driders.

[DrWeird]

Absolutely correct

Don't trust those novel writers, people. Besides, they seem...far more sexualized and scheming than STAB STAB STAB MURDER EVERY DAY, in the official artwork. Most people really do overstate and numbers and rely too much on any information they can gather, credible source or no.

[ffone]

IIRC elven females have a 2 month cycle and 2 year gestation, so they can go at 1/2 to 1/3 the speed of humans if inclined...and supposedly have a lower rate of mothers dying from birthing. So elves are capable of decent reproduction if they were so inclined. IIRC drow have shorter lifespans than other elves (biologically, not just b/c of the murder rate) so maybe they can reproduce faster.

I always figured drow had a higher birthrate than other elves, by trying more, since

1. Drow females are inevitably portrayed as hyper-sexualized
2. Mafia-like house allegiances give a strong survival incentive to create more blood relatives
3. Women tend to be more inclined to deliberately have children than are men, so in a matriarchical society...

[SurlySeraph]

I think certain numbers are exaggerated. Sure, the drow are infighting all the time and backstab each other a lot. That does not mean that every day there will be ten new corpses in every house. If you picture this as more machiavellian scheming and less outright stabbing, it becomes more plausible.

If a non-drow noble hears two or three instances of a drow being killed by other drow, then he'll likely conclude that drow kill each other "all the time". And, well, he's correct, but that does not mean "every day".

Factoring in their lifespans makes this make even more sense. Sure, pretty much any drow can tell about 15 murders of other drow he or she's heard about. But those murders could well have happened over 50 or 100 years.

Also, if you go by the explanation that elves biologically age at near-human rates but just take a lot longer to be officially considered mature and go out into the outside world, large drow militaries can make sense. They've got lots of slaves from other races and elite 500-year-old drow leaders, but between those extremes they have child soldiers in their 20s or 30s - relatively easily replaceable, but still drow.

[Psyren]

They'd still have it, just a faster birthrate.

So they are just pointy-eared long-lived humans?

It's hard to imagine a long-lived AND fertile race. What's to stop them from getting pregnant every 3 years for a century?

[hamishspence]

Races of Destiny has elves mature at near human rates, and I think Drow of the Underdark confirms that drow similarly mature rapidly.

As well as stating that they have higher reproductive rates than elves.

In the Drizzt novels, male drow finish the fighter school at around 30.



It's hard to imagine a long-lived AND fertile race. What's to stop them from getting pregnant every 3 years for a century?

Infighting, possibly, in the case of drow. Not sure about elves though.

[Aron Times]

To SurlySeraph:

Elves in 4e, be they "elves," eladrin, or drow, mature at the same rate as humans until adulthood, at which point their aging drastically slows down. This means that a 13-year old drow would look similar to a 13-year old human (skin color notwithstanding), but a 200-year old drow would look like a human in his twenties.

This makes far more sense than drow having slow aging throughout their lifetime. A relatively-fast childhood means that they can pump out adventurer fodder at an appreciable rate.

[hamishspence]

3E (in Races of Destiny and Drow of the Underdark) took the same approach.

And I think in pre-3E novels both elves and drow were portrayed as maturing fairly quickly in childhood.

[Hyudra]

I don't find it quite so unbelievable.

Figure that Drow live for a very long time, in a very conflict-heavy environment. Yes, this ups the risk each individual drow faces, but it also makes for a number of high level drow in leadership positions. Drow who reach this kind of position tend to stay in this position. Those who get sloppy or lackadaisical tend to get dealt with by Lolth or opportunistic underlings. So with that, we've got a population of high level figures who are generally sticking pretty close to home, to keep their affairs in order and the underlings in line. This alone keeps the Drow Cities from being wiped off the map. A high level priestess can deal with squadrons of Kuo-Toa rank and file, and go toe to toe with Illithids.

As for the 'removal' of Drow from various positions or families? Well, it's important to note that when one Drow (or Drow House) defeats another, death isn't the only solution. There's much more pleasure and raw advantage to be had when you curse, enslave, transform or geas your victims. Defeat a priestess and turn her into a Drider, doomed to lurk in your sub-tunnels? That frees up your foot troops to defend other territories. Defeat the leader of a rival house? She can spend the next few centuries licking your boots while her house is merged into yours.

In this perspective, the lower levels of drow society become a resource. A Drow House depends on its military (and to a lesser degree, provisions, supplies, trade, etc). If a soldier kills their captain, that soldier might face reprisals from an authority of his or her house. This curtails a great deal of the possible assassinations, poisonings and the like. Generally a Drow will have to wait decades or centuries to find the optimal time to pull off a coup, an assassination or such, typically coinciding with some major upheaval or distraction (as tends to happen in the books/games).

Drow are exceedingly long lived. Outside of the times of great chaos and upheaval, Drow enjoy a dense population that is far better protected than that of the surface elves (who might face orc incursions and the like). Because they're so much better protected (by the high level Drow leaders, terrain they holed into and fortified a thousand years ago, and so on), Drow can afford to have more children, which are an easy way in which to earn power. A middle aged drow mother might have six children, four of which are of some concrete value (captains of a regiment, priestess in training, etc) and can earn some power, advantage and wealth just by accepting the interests of those who have interest (positive or negative) in their brood. In short, the Drow population of any major city is liable to already be at critical mass, with an ongoing drive to have more children.

[Knightofvictory]

If you are interested in a unique, and in my own personal opinion, brilliant take on drow society, check out this webcomic.
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?order=chapters&id=0

The drow houses in this verse span all alignments, with most being LE or NE by default (find slavery acceptable, non drow life has little value, torture is acceptable, etc). The houses have so much infighting because there is limited space and resources underground, so overpopulation is actually a much bigger concern than under. Still, they have no desire to wipe out their entire race, so they generally stay loyal to their individual house, maneuvering and backstabbing MOSTLY against rival clans. Interestingly enough, there is even a house of Lawful Good, paladinesqe drow house who are viewed by the rest of society as vicious psychotic extremists thanks to their stance of killing anyone who has been 'tainted' with demonic powers or contact (a common, accepted practice by many houses.) It's a crazy, detailed world and has massively influenced the way i think about and run dark elves in my games. If this sounds interesting, give the comic a shot. Its long, a bit drawn out at parts, but undoubtedly the best portrayal of a working drow society I have seen.

[Shatteredtower]

Another alternative some may wish to consider: imagine if the long-lived drow were "blessed" by Lolth with high birth rates at some point. Then they get sent into a new environment with more limited resources, at least at first.

Things could get ugly really fast in such conditions. Those that survive the first century or two may find it a hard habit to break even if conditions otherwise improve, bringing their children up to accept that it's always been done this way. If that fails, remind them of the "fabulous prizes" this lifestyle has made available to those that play the game right.

Yes, drow society is a particularly harsh reality television game show for creatures that never got around to ending the first season, in no small part to some very high level executive meddling.

[ffone]

Any long-lived fertile race (as others have been saying) can easily have its numbered capped by the usual Darwinian suspects: famine, fighting (personal or war-level), disease: a large population increases the rates of all these things (unless they know how to work together in a an economically efficient manner, using division of labor, etc.) and populations reach a natural equilibrium. In real world ecosystems, lifespan and gestation are not usually the limiting population factors. Elf females who really wanted to could produce maybe 1 child per 3 years, they just don't for whatever reason.

In fact, if drow have a higher birthrate than other elves (whether due to biology or culture or both), it could partially explain their violent culture - more intense resource competition due to population pressure, especially in a harsh environment like the Underdark, which is probably less bountiful than other elves' forests, and may contain nastier creatures. This is part of what makes orcs such a menace, at least in Faerun - periodic population surges which they have to 'siphon' by 'spilling over' into other races' lands in the form of periodic war-hordes. It'd also be an anthropological explanation for drow customs like sacrificing the third son as a newborn, lots of sacrifices, etc.

[Set]

My pet theory is that the Drow used to have the same low birth-rate that surface elves had, but after generations of interbreeding with Lolth's fiendish servants, the ruling classes have gained an assortment of outsider-like traits (spell resistance and spell-like abilities, for instance), while the vast, vast majority of 'drow' are the commonborn, who have a dwarf-like bonus to saves vs. magic, but not actual spell resistance and no spell-like abilities, gained only greater fertility from the weaker fiendish blood in their veins.

The 'noble' houses continue to call up fiends and strengthen their own bloodlines, with the absolute upper tiers having the half-fiend template, giving the 'Drow' three separate bloodlines. The half-fiend nobles, their rules-standard 'Drow' extended families, and the vast hordes of 'commoners' who lack the spell resistance and spell-like abilities. The process is hardly a science, and even a pairing of two nobles might produce a child with weak fiendish traits, who will be cast out as just another commoner, regardless of it's parentage, while a pureblood Drow born from two commoners might be able to enter service with one of the houses, being recognized as having the 'noble blood.'


A creepier alternative might be that the commoner drow used in their armies are produced from a mating between a drow male and a drider female. A squirming egg-sac of webbing is hung with care in the drider's 'nursery,' and eventually rips open and disgorges eight commoner drow toddlers, to be raised as fodder for the armies... They aren't 'clones' per se, but eight identical 'twins,' and usually fiercely loyal to each other, if not anymore trustworthy to anyone else than a typical Drow.

[Shpadoinkle]

So, fellow Playgrounders, how do you make sense of drow society?

There's no sense to be made of it. It's just total bat**** insanity, especially considering that drow, as a subrace of elf, live bloody ages and have fairly long gestation periods, along with fairly rare multiple births, but murdering each other is somehow an everyday occurrence. If that were so, then drow would have quickly brought their population so low as to drive them effectively extinct within a generation.

Therefor, drow don't exist in my games because I think the entire thing in incredibly stupid.

Yeah, yeah, "It's a fantasy game," I know, but there's a difference between fantastic and stupid.

[Somebloke]

For what it's worth, I recall a Dragon article some time back. While it may no longer be canon (if it ever was) the explanation went like this:

The drow have interbred over the centuries with various demons and this supercharges their fertility, giving them near-human levels of breeding. In fact a matron will often conceive several children in a single act. However, drow pregnancy involves feutuses absorbing weaker ones in the womb (which means that a drow is a murderer even before they're born), limiting the results of conception to one or two live births.

(As a side note, the mother feels intense, addictive euphoria when these abortion-murders occur, giving the selfish drow women a very good reason to suffer pregnancy in the first case. No, I did not make that up).

Infighting kills off even more drow, culling a very large proportion of the young and leaving only the strongest and most cunning to survive into adolescence. It's at this point that the drow mortality rate begins to drop, as they are 'accepted' as being conpetent enough by their elders as potential players and pawns to be used. Most intrigue at this point tends to be mostly maneuvering, with only the very bottom of the heap being killed off. Really, a drow only gets killed by their peers by being consistently weak/gullible or by reaching too far and upsetting a major player. And there are always new drow to replace them.

[DrWeird]

Drow maturing at the rate of humans and then just stopping seems very silly. Like, Flumph silly. They were made originally to provide anatgonists, a lot like Illithids and dragons - and making sense of their society is a bit difficult, but is adequately explained above several times, where the mortality rate caps off by infighting at the level of competence by stronger, deadlier drow, at which point it's more about scheming and playing political chess. The six or so posts above are quite excellent examples of this mechanic at work.

But just stopping aging at around forty? That's just silly. You're silly, 4e.

[Tiki Snakes]

Drow maturing at the rate of humans and then just stopping seems very silly. Like, Flumph silly. They were made originally to provide anatgonists, a lot like Illithids and dragons - and making sense of their society is a bit difficult, but is adequately explained above several times, where the mortality rate caps off by infighting at the level of competence by stronger, deadlier drow, at which point it's more about scheming and playing political chess. The six or so posts above are quite excellent examples of this mechanic at work.

But just stopping aging at around forty? That's just silly. You're silly, 4e.

Actually it makes a world of sense, biologically. In real world terms, the development speed of humans is glacial. There's really no biological need for such a protracted development as to have 40 year old infants, and in any hostile enviroment, it's a crippling disadvantage to have your offspring so vulnerable for decades on end.
Contrarily, the aging process is due to the breakdown of DNA and wear and tear on the body. If the Drow or any Elves' DNA does not start breaking down in the same way that ours do, then most functions of aging just will not show for a very long time.

see Senescence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senescence) for more info than I can sum up.

Like Turtles, Elves would just have Negligable Senescence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligible_senescence).

[dsmiles]

Actually it makes a world of sense, biologically. In real world terms, the development speed of humans is glacial. There's really no biological need for such a protracted development as to have 40 year old infants, and in any hostile enviroment, it's a crippling disadvantage to have your offspring so vulnerable for decades on end.
Contrarily, the aging process is due to the breakdown of DNA and wear and tear on the body. If the Drow or any Elves' DNA does not start breaking down in the same way that ours do, then most functions of aging just will not show for a very long time.

see Senescence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senescence) for more info than I can sum up.

Like Turtles, Elves would just have Negligable Senescence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligible_senescence).

For SCIENCE!

[DrWeird]

Doesn't stop it from being far too silly.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/shimrra676/TooSilly.jpg

[Calmar]

I don't find it quite so unbelievable.
TEXT

I really like your take on the matter. :smallsmile:

[bokodasu]

I'm also thinking about turtles when it comes to the lifespan thing - green sea turtles live over 100 years, lay 100 or more eggs a year, and yet the world isn't covered from end to end with green sea turtles.

They hit breeding ages at around 20ish, which is really old, but 80 years of egg-laying, at 100 eggs per year - that's 8000 babbies per female turtle. On the high end, sure, but even half that is a lot.

So replace "being really tasty" with "eating your own children" and it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to have a species with a) long lifespans, b) lots of offspring, and c) low population.

[DrWeird]

Good point, Bokodasu. +1 internets.

[Tiki Snakes]

Drow are Sea Turtles. Who knew?

[Aron Times]

I'm also thinking about turtles when it comes to the lifespan thing - green sea turtles live over 100 years, lay 100 or more eggs a year, and yet the world isn't covered from end to end with green sea turtles.

They hit breeding ages at around 20ish, which is really old, but 80 years of egg-laying, at 100 eggs per year - that's 8000 babbies per female turtle. On the high end, sure, but even half that is a lot.

So replace "being really tasty" with "eating your own children" and it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to have a species with a) long lifespans, b) lots of offspring, and c) low population.
Bringing a whole new level of Squick to drow baby food. :smalleek:

[Calmar]

I'm also thinking about turtles when it comes to the lifespan thing - green sea turtles live over 100 years, lay 100 or more eggs a year, and yet the world isn't covered from end to end with green sea turtles.

They hit breeding ages at around 20ish, which is really old, but 80 years of egg-laying, at 100 eggs per year - that's 8000 babbies per female turtle. On the high end, sure, but even half that is a lot.

So replace "being really tasty" with "eating your own children" and it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to have a species with a) long lifespans, b) lots of offspring, and c) low population.

So the drow should eat their new-born children?

And how is babby formed?
.

[dsmiles]

So the drow should eat their new-born children?

Breakfast is served! :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

So the drow should eat their new-born children?

And how is babby formed?
.

At least the drider-babby ones.

Ooo, chiffon. I like it! :smallbiggrin:

[TheEmerged]

What I did for my campaign world.

I personally dislike the stereotype of races that live for centuries. So I've got a few races that live to about 150 (where humans live to about 70), of which drow are on the list. I decided they (like the eladrin) had a "normal" growth until around age 25 for the same reason some other posters have suggested.

As for their infighting, I adopted the "fraternity" rule. That is, they're constantly in-fighting but this isn't to be mistaken for lethality. By putting the drow in nigh-constant conflict with the derro (evil dwarves), I've given them an external enemy. This external enemy keeps them from killing each other too much.

I've also adopted the policy that the rank-and-file drow aren't really that different form the rank-and-file of any other races. Farmer Apostrophe isn't secretly plotting to kill Rancher PunName just because they both happen to be drow. They'll compete over the same water, the same lands, and so forth the same as any other farmer or rancher, but they're no more likely to kill each other than say a human rancher or farmer (make of that what you will :smallredface: ).

[Keld Denar]

Obligatory Drow Pic
http://www.equinoxshard.com/images/drow-hierarchy.gif

She must be a magic card, because I'd tap that...

:smallcool:

[dsmiles]

She must be a magic card, because I'd tap that...

:smallcool:

oo...
Wrong on so many levels of the Abyss!

[Coidzor]

...You know, come to think of it, the Drow either have a lot of traps or have developed the most potent sex determining magics of any society...

[Keld Denar]

Its amazing what you can do with a little Contact Other Plane or Communing with a Yugoloth and a little imagination.

Also, I think there is a spell for that in BoEF...

[ThunderCat]

I always figured drow had a higher birthrate than other elves, by trying more, since

1. Drow females are inevitably portrayed as hyper-sexualized
2. Mafia-like house allegiances give a strong survival incentive to create more blood relatives
3. Women tend to be more inclined to deliberately have children than are men, so in a matriarchical society...1. Being hyper sexualised doesn't indicate more libido. Drow female don't dress the way they do because they're sexual, but because the people they're trying to affect are. If the females were actually inclined to enjoy sex, the males would the sexualised ones.
2. Yes, except killing off your blood relatives nilly-willy defeats the point.
3. Actually, a survey showed that finding a partner willing to have children was more important for men than women, and abusive guys have been known to pressure their girlfriends into having children. And that's not even counting how many real life patriarchs have gathered harems of women and spent considerable amounts of time impregnating them, while feminists have fought for free abortion and for women to acknowledged as complete without husband and children.

[true_shinken]

It's outright stated that drow have a higher birthrate than elves, so yeah.
Also, the whole 'drow society is stupid' thing has been around so many years people just decide it's true and hardly ever think about it. Reading War of the Spider Queen for example you don't see so much lethal backstabbing as you're led to believe by this thread, for example.

Someone posted a lot of good points on how drow society conceivably works with the info we have and I totally agree with him but I can't remember his username and I'm too lazy to check.

[Keld Denar]

When Drizzt was going through the fighter school (forgot the name, Melee M-something), he mentioned more than a few of his classmates that got offed due for various reasons. I remember one distinctly because it was written hillariously "he died of natural causes...a dagger through the heart would naturally kill anyone!" or something similar.

As far as drow chicks not being hypersexualized...how would you explain the orgy that was blatently insinuated at when Drizzt did graduate from fighter school? Sounded like there was lots of hot drow-on-drow knoodling (or even drow-on-drow-on-drow-on-drow-on-drow-on-drow knoodling!) to be had. Drizzt's father, Zaknafrin, was often described as one of Matron Malice's sex toys whenever SHE so chose for HER pleasure, and I think it was even hinted that the only reason she hadn't had him executed long before was because of the way he wielded his weapons...all of them...:smallcool:

Really, it fits into their whole decadent culture motif. Powerful chicks have power, and keep harums of guys around to rub their feet, slay their enemies, fill their beds, or fight each other to the death to amuse the priestess, equal chance of each.

[hamishspence]

When Drizzt was going through the fighter school (forgot the name, Melee M-something), he mentioned more than a few of his classmates that got offed due for various reasons. I remember one distinctly because it was written hillariously "he died of natural causes...a dagger through the heart would naturally kill anyone!" or something similar.

Page 134 of Homeland (Chapter 14):


Only twenty two of the original twenty-five in Drizzt's class remained. One had been dismissed- and subsequently executed- for a foiled assassination attempt on a high-ranking student, a second had been killed in the practice arena, and a third had died in his bunk of natural causes- for a dagger in the heart quite naturally ends one's life.

[ThunderCat]

As far as drow chicks not being hypersexualized...how would you explain the orgy that was blatently insinuated at when Drizzt did graduate from fighter school? Sounded like there was lots of hot drow-on-drow knoodling (or even drow-on-drow-on-drow-on-drow-on-drow-on-drow knoodling!) to be had. Drizzt's father, Zaknafrin, was often described as one of Matron Malice's sex toys whenever SHE so chose for HER pleasure, and I think it was even hinted that the only reason she hadn't had him executed long before was because of the way he wielded his weapons...all of them...:smallcool:I never said they weren't hypersexualised, just that they weren't necessarily sexual (i.e. sexually active). A sexy pin-up babe could be completely frigid in real life, because pin-ups are about the sexuality of the onlookers, not the models. Visually, female drow appear to take great care to appear sexually attractive to others, but have no interest in the appearance of the males they have sex with.

As for the book describing an orgy, it indicates that the drow act the opposite of what the visual representation suggests, but that's just one book. In War of the Spider Queen, and Starlight and Shadow, male drow are as sexually aggressive as the females, but where the females engage in lesbianism, the males seem to be mostly interested in raping the females.


Really, it fits into their whole decadent culture motif. Powerful chicks have power, and keep harums of guys around to rub their feet, slay their enemies, fill their beds, or fight each other to the death to amuse the priestess, equal chance of each.Except there's nothing in their culture suggesting this except some authors claiming it. The female drow look almost exactly like old fashioned fantasy babes in chainmail bikinis (e.g. appeal to the sexuality of straight males), whereas the male drow.... well, as a straight woman, the best thing I can say about them is that they're so boring that you almost don't notice how ugly most of them are. Kind of like the guys in most porn for straight males, it's all about not taking the attention away from what the main audience really wants to see.

[SurlySeraph]

Being hyper sexualised doesn't indicate more libido. Drow female don't dress the way they do because they're sexual, but because the people they're trying to affect are. If the females were actually inclined to enjoy sex, the males would the sexualised ones.

There was an interesting bit in Drow of the Underdark on this, saying that in drow culture lack of clothing is a signifier of confidence. The less clothing you have on, the less armor and hidden weapons you can have, so it tells people that you aren't afraid and are therefore in a position of power. So it's mostly the nobles and priestesses that go around wearing three pieces of string, while drow peasants tend to wear actual clothes.

There's also a bit of fridge logic as to why with the high fertility rate and wild decadence most drow women aren't perpetually pregnant. I'm guessing it's a combination of a) it's hard to beat slaves with your belly in the way, b) they're ridiculously magically and technologically advanced, of course they have contraceptives, and c) most players would start giving the DM funny looks if they walked into a city full of scantily clad elves, all of whom were pregnant.

[HenryHankovitch]

As for the book describing an orgy, it indicates that the drow act the opposite of what the visual representation suggests, but that's just one book. In War of the Spider Queen, and Starlight and Shadow, male drow are as sexually aggressive as the females, but where the females engage in lesbianism, the males seem to be mostly interested in raping the females. I don't think that's really accurate. War of the Spider Queen has the pair (I forget their names) of the female priestess and her "war captive" enslaved female companion. The book states outright that the less-attractive priestess character uses her attractive slave to entice males for her own advancement and enjoyment. The insinuation is that this practice is decadent, but not morally outrageous.

Phaeraun doesn't seem interested in raping anyone, and is mostly stuck with a pack of stereotypical, psycho-PMSing females. Ryld enjoys a brief, consensual romance with the one priestess character before she takes a giant u-turn back into psycho-PMS-land.

In Starlight and Shadows, Liriel is repeatedly described as enjoying various hetero liasons among her peers, and that this is common practice. Gromph is mentioned as keeping mistresses, and kills one out of convenience (but not, technically, as an act of sexual violence).

[ThunderCat]

Phaeraun doesn't seem interested in raping anyone, and is mostly stuck with a pack of stereotypical, psycho-PMSing females. Ryld enjoys a brief, consensual romance with the one priestess character before she takes a giant u-turn back into psycho-PMS-land.

In Starlight and Shadows, Liriel is repeatedly described as enjoying various hetero liasons among her peers, and that this is common practice. Gromph is mentioned as keeping mistresses, and kills one out of convenience (but not, technically, as an act of sexual violence).In S&S, the male rebel leader was lusting after Liriel and not with the intent to be consensual, and since Gromph apparently chooses his own mistresses among the less powerful females (as opposed to needing to lure them like the female you mentioned), consent doesn't seem to be an issue. In regards to WotSQ, you seem to have forgotten the 'secret' brothel, in which females are kept chained and cut off from their magic, so the powerful male drow can rape them, torture them, mock them, humiliate them, and rape them again, all to deal with the stress of dealing with stereotypical, psycho-PMSing females all the times.

[hamishspence]

In War of the Spider Queen, and Starlight and Shadow, male drow are as sexually aggressive as the females, but where the females engage in lesbianism, the males seem to be mostly interested in raping the females.

In Starlight and Shadows it emphasises that there is a massive cultural taboo against that- it's only the drow males that actively oppose the Spider Queen- and are of the cult of Vhaerun, that show that trait.

[ThunderCat]

In Starlight and Shadows it emphasises that there is a massive cultural taboo against that- it's only the drow males that actively oppose the Spider Queen- and are of the cult of Vhaerun, that show that trait.Which is contradicted in WotSQ.

[kyoryu]

I don't think that Drow house-destruction is *actually* all that common. IIRC, it's illegal, and a single survivor of the destroyed House would be sufficient to bring charges against the aggressor House, causing the rest of the Houses to destroy the aggressor.

That's a pretty good disincentive to attacking another House - you've got to be sure that not only can you defeat them, but you can defeat them utterly, down to the last child. So when it happens, yeah, it's brutal and bloody, but I'd imagine that the vast majority of the time is more of a state of cold war.

[hamishspence]

Which is contradicted in WotSQ.

It was written some years later, by different authors- which might explain it.

Also, being a sheltered drow princess, Liriel might overestimate the importance of the taboo, or the taboo itself could be female drow propaganda.

[ThunderCat]

It was written some years later, by different authors- which might explain it.

Also, being a sheltered drow princess, Liriel might overestimate the importance of the taboo, or the taboo itself could be female drow propaganda.Perhaps it's because S&S is written by Elaine Cunningham, not R. A. Salvatore (who was also behind WotSQ, though he didn't write it himself). At least that explains why I find drow culture as described in S&S more believable and relatable. Not to say anything bad about Salvatore, but it's no secret that he has a strong preference for male characters, and that might not be the best perspective to base a matriarchy on, enjoyable as the books are otherwise.

[Arbane]

In S&S, the male rebel leader was lusting after Liriel and not with the intent to be consensual, and since Gromph apparently chooses his own mistresses among the less powerful females (as opposed to needing to lure them like the female you mentioned), consent doesn't seem to be an issue. In regards to WotSQ, you seem to have forgotten the 'secret' brothel, in which females are kept chained and cut off from their magic, so the powerful male drow can rape them, torture them, mock them, humiliate them, and rape them again, all to deal with the stress of dealing with stereotypical, psycho-PMSing females all the times.

:smalleek:

I think we've finally found FATAL's target audience.

[Aron Times]

R. A. Salvatore is Byon Hall? :smalleek:

/brainimplode

Anyway, folks, let's steer this away from sex so it doesn't get locked. I actually did not have drow sexuality in mind when I posted the original post, only their highly-unrealistic perpetual backstabbing.

Anyway, how does Eilistraeean drow society work? I know there's lots of dancing naked like a madwoman with a sword under the moon thing, but I don't really know much about how the non-pscyhotic drow live.

[dsmiles]

Anyway, how does Eilistraeean drow society work? I know there's lots of dancing naked like a madwoman with a sword under the moon thing, but I don't really know much about how the non-pscyhotic drow live.

TBH, I think this pretty much covers it.

[Ragitsu]

Wrong? Come on man, this ain't the 1920's.

[Newt]

I think certain numbers are exaggerated. Sure, the drow are infighting all the time and backstab each other a lot. That does not mean that every day there will be ten new corpses in every house. If you picture this as more machiavellian scheming and less outright stabbing, it becomes more plausible.



Too big but all good points


As has been said, Drow are extraordinarily fond of using other races as cannon fodder with their own troops as elite strike forces. That cuts down on their losses in battles.

Secondly, there wouldn't be that much killing. Sure, slaves would die by the thousands BUT. This is Drow society. They've spent their entire lives knowing that the majority of the other Drow in the city couldn't care less if they lived or died, and would love to make them a slave. And they are very, very good at what they do. So while the most powerful of them, read Malice, lash out randomly, anyone who isn't that powerful can't afford to. Just in case they don't have a perfect strike, otherwise they're basically dead.

Also read in one of the source books I think it was.. Or may have been a novel, hope not since they're usually terrible. But a Drow house that attacked another had a certain amount of time to attack them in, and they had to kill all the survivors. Or the rest of the city would destroy them, that alone would stop the majority of major bloodshed.

I've read them as very much LE except for their stupid godess who keeps messing with them to make them fight with each other. I think that it's outright stated that Lloth likes keeping her minions in a constant state of chaos and internecine warfare. Surprised that she isn't straight out CN since she'd make a much better C goddess given the way she's written up.

If Lloth were to die, then females would lose their power and Drow society would transform markedly. Mainly because of their behavior as written. Too many grudges to work together. But the old lot would die out and it would become a LE society that would most likely take over the world so I suppose we should be grateful to Lloth. :P

In regards to birth rate, Drow are mentioned as the human version of Elves. They have the same long lifespan, the same natural gifts and such, but they're human in the way they act. Not slow with low birthrates, wandering around the world. It's 20 projects at a time, 50 kids and enough advancements to make Gnomes jealous. Again, it's just un/fortunate that Lloth keeps messing with them.

They should be a lot rarer though, like Mindflayers/Ithllids. They live in the Underdark or even greater Underdark (Under Underdark :S), and should be encountered rarely, and when they do it should spell almost certain doom for the PC's.

Going down a corridor, unable to see anything beyond the lights weak glare, when the blackness descends. Darkness everywhere. A sharp pain, then another, and another as the Drow fire off their poisoned hand crossbows. Then 5 Drow fighters wade in, completely silent, blades swinging. Working in perfect unison.

A party should be dead/captured before it knows what hit it. :P Would have to give them some sort of chance I suppose.. A warning from a peasant not to go near perhaps.

And yea, not all Drow worship Lloth, but I think it's stated somewhere that the majority of them do. A few are CG who worship that female goddess, a few Varhaun or however you spell it. But being found out would be instant death in the majority of Drow cities.


Idea for a campaign, kill Lloth and see what happens. Make a great end of the world scenario.

[HenryHankovitch]

stuff 'bout naughty sex bits in novels

Not to drag this back into sex, but I just want to point out that those are things done by the villains in the books. Which establishes them as villains, as being cruel and transgressive even by drow standards. The real point of the matter is that the books actually depict heterosexuality and [relatively] consensual relations as commonplace, even if they're not universal. Not "all the chicks are lesbos and all the guys are frustrated rapists."

[ThunderCat]

Not to drag this back into sex, but I just want to point out that those are things done by the villains in the books. Which establishes them as villains, as being cruel and transgressive even by drow standards. The real point of the matter is that the books actually depict heterosexuality and [relatively] consensual relations as commonplace, even if they're not universal. Not "all the chicks are lesbos and all the guys are frustrated rapists."Aren't drow pretty much supposed to be villains by default? And the brothel is used by quite a few normal powerful males, probably including Phaeraun. At least he put one of the unwilling prostitutes there, so it's not like he finds the practice morally objectionable.

[HenryHankovitch]

Aren't drow pretty much supposed to be villains by default? And the brothel is used by quite a few normal powerful males, probably including Phaeraun. At least he put one of the unwilling prostitutes there, so it's not like he finds the practice morally objectionable.
Well yeah, that's what makes those books (IMO) a bit more interesting than most other D&D novels. The whole conceit is that you're taking characters that would normally be the villains, and turning them into antiheroic protagonists. You're supposed to enjoy reading about Phaeraun and even root for him a bit, because he's clever and interesting, despite also doing things that are morally detestable by all normal standards. They're genuine antiheroes, as opposed to someone like Drizzt (or Liriel Baenre, to a lesser extent) who just happens to have an inherently Good sense of morals despite living in the middle of an Evil society.

And so, to cast these characters in a heroic light, you need to highlight the elements that make their enemies even more villainous. Ryld and Phaeraun are definitely amoral in a lot of ways, but they're not Chaotic Bat**** Crazy like the priestesses they're traveling with. Liriel Baenre may be a Lolth-worshiping priestess who kills at the drop of a hat; but for the greater part of the books she's legitimately defending herself against characters that are even more Evil than she is.

[Callista]

Drow with a high birth rate and long lifespans actually makes sense to me. Think about the economic pressure: Very quickly there would be too many for the meager food supply available in the Underdark. It would actually be beneficial for the drow to kill each other off regularly, in everything from house warfare to training schools where only one in a hundred will graduate. Plus, there's the matriarchal society focused around clerics. It's entirely possible that in Drow society, having children is considered a path to power--it's like birthing your own minions. And clerical magic, with a female deity... Wouldn't put it past the drow to tap into pregnancy as a source of power as well; clerical magic does more manipulation of life energy than any other sort. It's a completely upside-down state of affairs from what you'd get on the surface, with the men protecting their pregnant females, who (Kazumi Kato aside) are assumed to be weaker while they're waddling around carrying babies those last few months...

[hamishspence]

Wouldn't put it past the drow to tap into pregnancy as a source of power as well; clerical magic does more manipulation of life energy than any other sort.

In Homeland- Malice taps into the energy of her own giving birth, to release a powerful spell against House Devir- which does considerable damage and helps win the battle.

So there is some support in the novels for them doing similar sorts of things.

[SurlySeraph]

She uses the energy of giving birth to fuel a direct damage spell? What did she do, turn her birth canal into a railgun? Should we be afraid of drow Natality Cannons now?

[Aron Times]

ROFLMAO the mental image conjured by the above post is both funny and really disturbing. :smalleek::smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

It's the pain of birth that was the source.

"Power from Pain" might be the best term for it:


"Abec di'n'a'BREG DOUWARD!" Malice screamed, pushing away all of the agony in a final explosion of magical power that knocked even the clerics of her own house from their feet.

Carried on the thrust of Matron Malice's exultation, the dweomer thundered into the chapel of House DeVir, shattered the gemstone idol of Lolth, sundered the double doors into heaps of twisted metal, and threw Matron Ginafae and her overmatched subordinates to the floor.
Zak shook his head in disbelief as the chapel doors flew past him. "Quite a kick, Malice." He chuckled and spun around the entryway into the chapel. Using his infravision, he took a quick survey and head count of the lightless room's seven living occupants, all struggling back to their feet, their robes tattered. Again shaking his head at the bared power of Matron Malice, Zak pulled his hood down over his face.

[SurlySeraph]

OK. "Pain as a weapon" is a lot better than "I have a rocket launcher loaded with Draegloths between my legs."

[dsmiles]

OK. "Pain as a weapon" is a lot better than "I have a rocket launcher loaded with Draegloths between my legs."

However, the Dragloth Launching Orifice is far more hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

The entire imagery and point behind it is pretty bleh though. I mean, what kind of writer can write that and not feel... sullied?

[dsmiles]

The entire imagery and point behind it is pretty bleh though. I mean, what kind of writer can write that and not feel... sullied?

*raises hand* :smallredface:

[Coidzor]

*raises hand* :smallredface:

And not be an exhibitionist?

Or am I just too optimistic...:smallyuk:

[dsmiles]

And not be an exhibitionist?

Or am I just too optimistic...:smallyuk:

Nope, not an ehibitionist. I've just been...sullied, as you put it (I prefer 'corrupted,' myself), for many years. My tolerance for things that make other people squicky is pretty dang high.

[Callista]

Drow are intrinsically squicky, anyway, what with the spiders and the constant torture/sacrifice thing they seem to be into so much. It's not all lavender eyes and double scimitars, y'know. In fact, very little of it is (and thank goodness for that--the drow race can only take one Marty Stu Drizzt before imploding).

[Sabatasso]

First of all I'd like to say that after reading Dark Elf Trilogy, Icewind Dale Trilogy, The Legacy of the Drow series, I feel I have some clue on what's going on in the Drow elf society. I am going to read The paths of Darkness series after my exam next monday. I might have some more input in a month in other words. I also have "The Underdark" boxed set for AD&D 2nd edition, and I remember some of what I read there as well.

Misconception #1
Drow are born evil!

They are not, they are molded into evil by the society. As mentioned in the books, some Drow are harder to "break" and mold into "true Drow", wich I interpret as naturally born good-ish aligned individuals takes longer to turn Chaotic Evil. Drizzt did not break, Zaknafein did not break and Vierna was only half broken, and still in Lolth's favor as a Chaotic neutral Priestess.

Misconception #2
Chaotic Evil = Stupid

It seems to me that everyone regard Chaotic Evil alignment as stupidity. As far as I know, every Chaotic Evil character also have an Intelligence attribute. It is ultimately that ability that decides how stupid the individual is, not their alignment. An Evil individual will of course use his wits for wickedness, but Drow society is inhabited by Drow Elves and they all recieve a +2 to Intelligence. They are smarter than humans in other words.
A chaotic individual is often regarded as impulsive, but an impulsive individual is not unable to have a long term goal. It just mean that they create a rough long term plans, and deal with unexpected events impulsively. Where a lawful or neutral individual might plan a much more detailed long term plan where several unexpected events are accounted for just in case. A chaotic evil individual that is also smart does not kill everyone he wants to kill without considering the consequences first, and will probably wait until the right moment when the gains are big and the consequences are none or minimal. In Drow society males are killed quite frequently and without much fuzz, but females are usually Priestesses of Lolth and can not be killed without a valid reason, and Lolth usually have to agree with the killing.

I interpret Chaotic Evil aligned individuals as pragmatic and opportunistic individuals with little or no conscience.

*Orcs and Goblins are averagely stupid, and that is why their society differs from Drow society.

Another note is that Drow Elves live substantially longer than humans, and while other long lived races may consider Drow elves impatient as a result of their usual chaotic evil nature, they are probably much more patient than a short lived race than humans. Might be another explanation to why Drow society does not collapse due to everyone killing the person over them on the social ladder.

[hamishspence]

Misconception #1
Drow are born evil!

Dragon Magazine's "Drowconomicon" article tended to take this tack- with most drow having instinctive homicidal tendencies, and usually being multiple-embryo pregnancies, but the single infant born has killed all its siblings in the womb.

A bit like Sand Tiger Sharks in that respect.

Drow of the Underdark backs away from that a bit.


As mentioned in the books, some Drow are harder to "break" and mold into "true Drow", wich I interpret as naturally born good-ish aligned individuals takes longer to turn Chaotic Evil. Drizzt did not break, Zaknafein did not break and Vierna was only half broken, and still in Lolth's favor as a Chaotic neutral Priestess.

Maybe- in the Dark Elf Trilogy. By The Legacy, she's pretty hardcore Evil.

I'd say Liriel Baenre is a better example of "only half-broken"- in the short story The Blooding, she's lost a lot of her innocence, and in Daughter of the Drow, she's a novice priestess (as well as a fairly capable mage) but she's still a lot nicer than most drow.

While in the 2nd ed character book, she's listed as True Neutral- (and no cleric powers are mentioned- she's statted as a fighter/wizard)- given that she retains her cleric of Lolth powers in the next book, I'd say Chaotic Neutral would be "more accurate".

Jarlaxle's official 3rd ed alignment in both FRCS and Underdark, is NE- and I'd say he's another possible candidate for "only half-broken"- he's a bit less evil (and a bit more chaotic) than the average NE drow.

[Sabatasso]

Dragon Magazine's "Drowconomicon" article tended to take this tack- with most drow having instinctive homicidal tendencies, and usually being multiple-embryo pregnancies, but the single infant born has killed all its siblings in the womb.

A bit like Sand Tiger Sharks in that respect.


In all respect to Dragon magazine but the creator of the Drow race in Forgotten Realms is Ed Greenwood, and the race was made popular by R.A. Salvatore. If the two latter differ in their opinion about the nature of the race I feel that Greenwood as the creator probably has the final word.




Jarlaxle's official 3rd ed alignment in both FRCS and Underdark, is NE- and I'd say he's another possible candidate for "only half-broken"- he's a bit less evil (and a bit more chaotic) than the average NE drow.


Jarlaxle is a houseless rogue, while I don't know his history he has probably lead a different life than most Drow elves, and therefore molded into a different type of person than his racial brethren.

Anyway, my point with the post was not actually bickering about details in known Drow characters, but more the interpretation of Chaotic Evil and the Drow society.

Another thing, i think that alignment is horribly implemented into the game. I could accept it if it was a vague description of someone's demeanor, but as a definite personality description it is more limiting than anything else in the game.

[hamishspence]

In all respect to Dragon magazine but the creator of the Drow race in Forgotten Realms is Ed Greenwood, and the race was made popular by R.A. Salvatore. If the two latter differ in their opinion about the nature of the race I feel that Greenwood as the creator probably has the final word.

True- but it's not clear how much of "Greyhawk drow" is based on Drowconomicon-type material.

In a Greyhawk-type world, it may be that there's more "innate evil" to the Drow than in a Faerun-type one- depending on the writer. 1st ed D&D might have taken a similar approach.

On drow society tending to "break it's members to evil" (except for the unusually strong-willed) I do tend to agree with the basic point made.

In either this or one of the older threads on Drow, I mentioned that in early D&D, the unusually disciplined nature of the (then described as CE) drow society, was explained as a reaction to their hazardous environment- so they seemed NE/LE compared with surface dwellers, but were in fact CE underneath.

EDIT: It was an older thread:

Dungeoneer's Survival Guide info on Underdark societies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7775706&postcount=227)

[Sabatasso]

I thought the term "Drow" pointed destinctively to the dark elves of Faerun.

Am i wrong?

[hamishspence]

I think the term may have been used even in 1st ed, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: It was:

Greyhawk Wiki on Drow (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drow)

[Sabatasso]

I thought the term "Drow" pointed destinctively to the dark elves of Faerun.

Am i wrong?

Obviously :)

[Alleran]

Misconception #1
Drow are born evil!

They are not, they are molded into evil by the society. As mentioned in the books, some Drow are harder to "break" and mold into "true Drow", wich I interpret as naturally born good-ish aligned individuals takes longer to turn Chaotic Evil. Drizzt did not break, Zaknafein did not break and Vierna was only half broken, and still in Lolth's favor as a Chaotic neutral Priestess.
I wrote something up on this a while ago in a previous thread, it being mostly personal musings on the differences of certain drow from the norm (beyond, of course, the "main character = good" setup). Spoilered for length.

I've always thought of Drizzt, Vierna and his father Zaknafein as being... anomalies, for lack of a better term. Liriel Baenre and even Gromph Baenre (as well as Sosdrielle Vandree, Liriel's mother) would also fall under the category.

Essentially, I see them as genetic and psychological throwbacks, to when the drow were more akin to other faerie elves and before the many centuries/millennia of corruption and change infused them and their society.

They're not like other drow, on even the most fundamental level. You can see it with how Drizzt has an "innate morality" (or kindness, or "spirit" or whatever) that many of his kin lack. It also exists in his sister Vierna. When he was a boy, Briza once set him a task, to clean the walls of a room with just a spoon. It was an impossible task, but in an act of kindness, Vierna gave him an enchanted spoon that allowed him to finish it much quicker, to help him and keep him from punishment. Some of what was seen from her perspective in the books even implied that she cared for her brother, quite odd for a drow elf in light of their general society. Drizzt muses on how she was kind to him in one of those moralising essays later on in the series (when he's comparing himself to Artemis Entreri), that she wasn't a brutal taskmistress but much more like a... well, a mother.

Part of it, I think, also came from Zaknafein (as mentioned), who mused once on why he was different from other drow, why his mindset was such that he hated the drow and Lolth (it was only his supreme skill with weapons that kept Matron Malice from having him sacrificed). Drizzt and Vierna both inherited that. Vierna, unfortunately, wound up going to the Academy, where she was pretty much entirely brainwashed by the priestesses there, and resulted in Zak "losing" her to Lolth. Even despite that, though, she was still different. She was quieter, more loving, and still more caring of Drizzt than were her sisters (Maya and Briza - Briza in particular was kind of... well, a typical drow).

Vierna did make a pass at Drizzt during his graduation, but it seems that even in sex, she was more akin to the "sweet 'n tender lovin'" kind of individual to the "rough angry mememe" stuff that most drow females engaged in (not sure if that breaches censors or anything, so if it does, then a moderator can rephrase it - essentially, Vierna was still kind to an extent even after her time in the Academy and promotion to High Priestess rank, a kindness that shows itself in her behaviour, attitude and - to an extent - morals [sort of!]).

And, of course, when Vierna died, she finally overcame the brainwashing of Lolth, and "Zaknafein's daughter" emerged once more, in her final moments. The kind daughter, the one who could, if given time, quite probably become much like Drizzt in outlook (likely a priestess of Eilistraee, if she was still going to be a cleric). The Spider Queen got to her before Zak could, though. Drizzt, being male, slipped under the radar until events obviously played out as you see in the books.

A similar case exists with Liriel. She's bright, full of life and laughter. In fact, she's practically a faerie elf with dark skin. Her eyes, like Drizzt's, are different. She has that spirit, love of life and living and adventure that most drow lose. And, of course, she wound up switching from Lolth to Eilistraee and then to Mystra. She probably got a lot of it from her mother (who was described as being unusually quiet and "too caring" by other drow), but some from her father, too. Gromph even had the quiet and peace of mind/soul to take his rest in Reverie during his early centuries of life, until he was so steeped in the foulness of drow life that he lost it.

One short story describes Liriel's Blooding, the rite that allows her to be considered an adult in drow society. At its conclusion, she recognises in her father's eyes the thing that "lessens" the drow, that hangs over them like a shroud: despair. She also recognises some spark in her father that was once, many centuries previous, like her - the life and spirit that has bled out of him over the years since then. She, luckily, escaped before drow society could bring that crushing despair to bear.

Even Jarlaxle has some elements of this, though he's much closer to Gromph than he is to Drizzt, or even Zak. Still "evil" (by whatever means you apply the moniker), but he has elements of that adventurous spirit (which characterises Liriel and Drizzt) to him.

The tendency towards good is obviously rare and doesn't show up particularly often, but it does emerge every now and again. Without somebody to encourage it and help it grow (Drizzt: Vierna, Zaknafein, Belwar, Bruenor and so on; Liriel: Fyodor, Danilo, Qilue Silverhand), it'll probably sputter and die. It might even show up much more often, but wind up resulting in, well... a Gromph, one who had the spark but has lost it.

It also shows up, perhaps, in Reverie. Gromph and Liriel both muse independently on the drow and their attitude towards Reverie. It's something that the drow could once do, but has slowly begun to fade from their society until it's gotten to the point where it's quite rare, because the drow no longer possess the "inner calm" or whatever that allows them to take their rest within Reverie as opposed to normal sleep.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts on the Drizzt issue, and the possibility for drow to not be quite as evil as they're always made out to be, specifically the oddities that spring up every now and again. Some speculation, some interpretation, but I like talking about it from time to time. It's FR-specific, but could probably be applied to other settings as well on a case-by-case basis.