A Table Top Gaming Club at my School (Need Help Getting it off the Ground)

[Dencero]

We'll be getting a new principal at my school soon, and as such, I hope to talk to him about getting a Table Top Roleplaying club set up. The substitute principal I talked with was on board with the idea, but thought that there should be a time to watch a game unfold, which makes me a little nervous. Here's why:

Well, we've got between 8-10 people who will be joining, myself included. This is new for me. The most I've ever DM'd at a single time was like 5 people and it was pretty difficult. But then again, we did it online because we didn't live anywhere remotely near each other. I've ran games in real life, and do have some problems myself. I used tend to stutter and trip over my words when explaining, which sort of breaks game flow. I'm more confident, now, but still run into that problem now and again though.

So, what I'm after is any tips and tricks you've stumbled across that could help someone introducing new players or players who haven't played for years to the game.

Here's what I've come up with:

1) Give nice, simple descriptions of what classes do
2) Print out copies of their abilities and spells so they always have access to them
3) Print out explanations and examples of skills
4) Print out battle maneuvers (Bull-Rush, trip, that sort of thing)
5) Try to get each player involved
6) To create suspicion and encourage roleplaying by passing around notes to specific characters about what's going on. (Got a lot of DM'ing tips and ideas from SilverClawShift's DM. :P)

Anything else that you can add would be greatly appreciated.

[dsmiles]

We'll be getting a new principal at my school soon, and as such, I hope to talk to him about getting a Table Top Roleplaying club set up. The substitute principal I talked with was on board with the idea, but thought that there should be a time to watch a game unfold, which makes me a little nervous. Here's why:

Well, we've got between 8-10 people who will be joining, myself included. This is new for me. The most I've ever DM'd at a single time was like 5 people and it was pretty difficult. But then again, we did it online because we didn't live anywhere remotely near each other. I've ran games in real life, and do have some problems myself. I used tend to stutter and trip over my words when explaining, which sort of breaks game flow. I'm more confident, now, but still run into that problem now and again though.

So, what I'm after is any tips and tricks you've stumbled across that could help someone introducing new players or players who haven't played for years to the game.

Here's what I've come up with:

1) Give nice, simple descriptions of what classes do
2) Print out copies of their abilities and spells so they always have access to them
3) Print out explanations and examples of skills
4) Print out battle maneuvers (Bull-Rush, trip, that sort of thing)
5) Try to get each player involved
6) To create suspicion and encourage roleplaying by passing around notes to specific characters about what's going on. (Got a lot of DM'ing tips and ideas from SilverClawShift's DM. :P)

Anything else that you can add would be greatly appreciated.

"Power cards" for their abilities, spells, "usable" feats (as in non-constant), etc. would be better than just printing them out, IMO. That way they can lay out what they want to do before their turn comes up, and just pick up a card and say, "This one!" But only use them until they get the hang of it, then slowly wean them off of the cards. It worked with my kids, and after gaming only, like, 4-5 times, the only one left using them was my 6 year old. The other three had their abilities down pat. But then again, he's 6. I don't really expect him to remember all that. But he had the basic rules and character creation down pretty good.

[Dencero]

"Power cards" for their abilities, spells, "usable" feats (as in non-constant), etc. would be better than just printing them out, IMO. That way they can lay out what they want to do before their turn comes up, and just pick up a card and say, "This one!" But only use them until they get the hang of it, then slowly wean them off of the cards. It worked with my kids, and after gaming only, like, 4-5 times, the only one left using them was my 6 year old. The other three had their abilities down pat. But then again, he's 6. I don't really expect him to remember all that. But he had the basic rules and character creation down pretty good.

Thanks, that's what I'm after. I think skills would be the biggest, however. I always have found that my players only do skill checks when I give them the option. They're encountered with something arcane in nature, and I even tell them that they're "arcanic runes scribbed into the wall" and I get nada.

I've got a few players who have a grasp of what they're doing, so they may only need clarification for certain aspects.

I was was also thinking about branching out and showing them some other classes they might want to try out. Stuff like the Archivist, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, Warlock, and the like, but I don't want to overwhelm them and I DEFINITELY do not want to start them out on homebrew.

[Raum]

So, what I'm after is any tips and tricks you've stumbled across that could help someone introducing new players or players who haven't played for years to the game.
<snip>
Anything else that you can add would be greatly appreciated.This may be useful (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Forming_a_Gaming_Community).

As for introducing new players, two important items: keep it simple and keep it interesting. Those should be applied to all facets of gaming with new players. Don't hit them with complex systems, characters, plots, or moralities. Each is a barrier. Do keep things interesting! Everything from mechanics to story to combat to pacing...watch for inattention, distraction, or outright boredom and correct as needed. Most of all, have fun! If you're having fun, they're more likely to do so also.

[dsmiles]

Stuff like the Archivist, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, Warlock, and the like, but I don't want to overwhelm them and I DEFINITELY do not want to start them out on homebrew.

Perhaps Archivist and Dread Necro are a little much for inexperienced players, but Warlocks are (and I hear that Dragon Shamans are) pretty easy for beginners. Warlock: "I cast this Invocation, now I have a 24-hour bonus." Seems pretty easy to me. Blast shapes and essences are somewhat challenging for the novice, but they could be used as kind of an incentive to delve further into the rules.

EDIT: Also, I've been at this for about 26 years. I consider it my duty...nay, my right, to lead future generations to the water of roleplaying (and hope to hell that they drink...:smalltongue:).

[Dencero]

Also, I've been at this for about 26 years. I consider it my duty...nay, my right, to lead future generations to the water of roleplaying (and hope to hell that they drink...:smalltongue:).

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T...
Twenty six. Twenty six years. Sir, I am dumbstruck. I tip my hat at you, you veteran.

The age group is about 16-18, so they should be all quick to learn. I'm not gonna dump Psionics, Incarnum, Vestiges, Cthulhu, or anything else that might make their brains implode. (In the case of Cthulhu, probably literally. >.>)

They are all ready to try this out, just need to get the permission. Best case scenario, we get a new principal who understands roleplaying and in fact plays himself. Worst case, we get one of those people who thinks D and D is "The Devil's Game."

Although, I sent forward a neat and tidy letter to the proper channels stating my case. I should be good. If you don't mind me saying, you seem like you witnessed that sort of thing unfold. If I was facing someone who was overly devout and dead set on crushing my dreams of an afterschool gaming club, what should I use in a pro-argument? If you don't mind me asking.

[Sinfonian]

This may be a fairly unpopular suggestion, and possibly not at all what you were looking for, but have you thought about using 4E DnD rather than 3.5?

The system has a lot of stuff simplified, making it rather easier to teach newcomers and have them actually digest what's going on.

I personally have not tried the system yet, but from everything I've heard it might be something beneficial to your task of teaching new players how to play without overwhelming them.

[The Rabbler]

This may be a fairly unpopular suggestion, and possibly not at all what you were looking for, but have you thought about using 4E DnD rather than 3.5?

The system has a lot of stuff simplified, making it rather easier to teach newcomers and have them actually digest what's going on.


This. 4e is a great way to introduce the system to new players. Because of the little room for messing up, unless the player is actively trying to make a bad character, they'll end up with one that should be able to contribute pretty easily to a party.

Also, I'd suggest using mooks more often than you normally would; I notice that new players find fun in killing things, regardless of actual difficulty, much more than would a veteran player.

[Dencero]

This may be a fairly unpopular suggestion, and possibly not at all what you were looking for, but have you thought about using 4E DnD rather than 3.5?

The system has a lot of stuff simplified, making it rather easier to teach newcomers and have them actually digest what's going on.

I personally have not tried the system yet, but from everything I've heard it might be something beneficial to your task of teaching new players how to play without overwhelming them.

I thought about it and thought about it again. I've tried out 4e once before. Not too impressed. I like complexity in D and D and it seems to make it more simpler, but too much like an MMO for my tastes. I'll put the offer out on the table for them, however.

[Noodles2375]

OP:
In addition to your number 1 of giving simple descriptions, try to also pick fairly simple classes!

If I were in your shoes, I would pick 2-3 classes of several broad archetypes. Say, warrior classes, support roles, and magic users. Restrict them initially to just those classes, and to help them choose among them, like you mentioned, give brief descriptions of how they all work. I think people make more sense of psionics than vancian casting, especially if they have no previous DnD experience. My list would probably be something like

Warriors - Ranger, Barbarian, Psychic Warrior
Support - Rogue, Dragon Shaman, Ardent
Magics - Warlock, Psion
All of those can be played sort of "out of the box" and represent some key fantasy archetypes!

Good luck!

[Galsiah]

Now this might not work for your group, but it really helped me out when I first picked up D&D: get everyone together a few times and have 'em read various core rulebooks. Sounds pretty un-fun, I know, but depending on who you're gaming with, it could actually be a good time. Have someone flipping through the PHB, someone else looking through the MM a bit, etc. It can really help get some of the basic rules down pat.

[big teej]

[QUOTE=Dencero;9630742
Although, I sent forward a neat and tidy letter to the proper channels stating my case. I should be good. If you don't mind me saying, you seem like you witnessed that sort of thing unfold. If I was facing someone who was overly devout and dead set on crushing my dreams of an afterschool gaming club, what should I use in a pro-argument? If you don't mind me asking.[/QUOTE]

If I may...

assuming some sort of religious private school, given that you expressed a worry over the 'devil game' view

bring in a christian gamer*. if not, there are plenty of people on this forum (christian or not) are more than capable of giving a very well thought and intelligent sales pitch for DnD.

my personal tac, if I would have tried this in high school (which was a private christian school, with at least 2 teachers/faculty who would have reacted with 'the devil game' view)
build up a good raport with the new principal (the fact that the VP is on board is an excellent mark in your favor)

if someone objects to the game, state your case and reasoning clearly, concisly, logically, and as devoid of emotion as possible. site the various real life BENEFITS of role playing. (better social skills, math, public speaking, etc)

if all else fails, ask if the problem is the fact that you are playing Dungeons and Dragons... or if the problem is the fact you're playing a game (imho a much harder position to defend)

if the problem is 'dnd'
if all else fails, you could use a different system and try to swing them around to okaying DnD after proving that those little hunks of plasitc don't cause homicide or floating tables....





*again, assuming a religious and/or christian school


/ramble....
I hope something in there was helpful

[Raum]

If I was facing someone who was overly devout and dead set on crushing my dreams of an afterschool gaming club, what should I use in a pro-argument? If you don't mind me asking.Pick your battles. If the connotations of D&D are a road block, consider a different game system. There are hundreds of systems out there. Figure out what won't rub someone's prejudices the wrong way, match with what you like, and find a system to match. Or just go with a generic system. It's hard to get upset over a game called "Fudge", "GURPS", or "Unisystem". Though Unisystem's Witchcraft game might be pushing it if D&D didn't fly. :smallwink:

I'm not saying don't try to convince them to allow whichever game is your first choice. But, if they don't, it's not necessarily the end of your starting a gaming club.

[Arbane]

Although, I sent forward a neat and tidy letter to the proper channels stating my case. I should be good. If you don't mind me saying, you seem like you witnessed that sort of thing unfold. If I was facing someone who was overly devout and dead set on crushing my dreams of an afterschool gaming club, what should I use in a pro-argument? If you don't mind me asking.

Protection from People Who Take Jack Chick Seriously: "It's playing make-believe, none of it is real." (If that doesn't work, suggest a sci-fi or superhero game, maybe?)

Aside from that, playing RPGs promotes math skills, creative writing and problem-solving, teamwork, and organization. All good things for students.

[Flabbicus]

Why not incorporate board games into the mantra for the club? Make it such that you can draw people in with promises of Risk and even Diplomacy. That way the club seems a bit more tenable and "wholesome" to a potential administrator.

[Galileo]

If you do have to make an argument for D&D being accepted at school, try boiling it down to its very essence: formalised Cops and Robbers. If they have a problem with D&D, they have a problem with you playing make-believe with some extra rules, as Arbane pointed out.

[kyoryu]

If you don't like 4e, consider going old school and finding some 2nd ed books - or even 1st ed.

While as an experienced gamer *you* may like complexity, a new player likely won't. One strength of classes is that it gives someone a broad concept that they can understand and internalize - "fighter", "thief," "wizard." These are all good, and anyone that has seen LotR can grok them. Even cleric, ranger, and paladin are understandable. Same with races.

"Dragonborn archivist" will make non-gamers go "huh?" regardless of how much gamers like ideas like that.

For teaching purposes, I would seriously, seriously consider 4e though. Even if you later branch out to something else.

[Sinfonian]

I thought about it and thought about it again. I've tried out 4e once before. Not too impressed. I like complexity in D and D and it seems to make it more simpler, but too much like an MMO for my tastes. I'll put the offer out on the table for them, however.

Totally understandable, but I should probably mention that 4E being kind of like an MMO helps people not familiar with the game to pick up concepts. Much easier for someone who already understands how cooldowns work in a game to get just how limited and important the use of an encounter or daily power is.

I forgot to mention that you might want to either recruit or groom a second person as a DM, and use that to form 2 subgroups which would be of a much more manageable size.

[Kurald Galain]

This. 4e is a great way to introduce the system to new players.
I disagree. It is too rules-heavy; most beginners that aren't heavily into boardgames or computer games already learn the game easier from a rules-light system. 4E can easily give players the impression that they must pick the best of all those similar-looking power cards each turn, and non-hardcore players generally have an easier time with the attitude of "just tell me what you want to do" that other RPGs have.

[dsmiles]

They are all ready to try this out, just need to get the permission. Best case scenario, we get a new principal who understands roleplaying and in fact plays himself. Worst case, we get one of those people who thinks D and D is "The Devil's Game."

Although, I sent forward a neat and tidy letter to the proper channels stating my case. I should be good. If you don't mind me saying, you seem like you witnessed that sort of thing unfold. If I was facing someone who was overly devout and dead set on crushing my dreams of an afterschool gaming club, what should I use in a pro-argument? If you don't mind me asking.

I went to a private Catholic school. Our "special activities club" didn't start off with DnD. It actually started off as more of a "drama club." (Granted, the endstate was us getting to play DnD on the school's dime, but they didn't know that.) Roleplaying games were brought in after a few weeks to "enchance our acting abilities." After about another month, we just simply renamed the club. There wasn't much room for argument on their part, since the principal, assistant principal (both Catholic nuns), and two teachers were gaming with us by this time. To "supervise," of course. :smallwink:

[Dencero]

Why not incorporate board games into the mantra for the club? Make it such that you can draw people in with promises of Risk and even Diplomacy. That way the club seems a bit more tenable and "wholesome" to a potential administrator.

That's why I called it "Table Top Gaming". We weren't gonna do things like monopoly or yahtzee. But Risk and such are the sort of things that people might enjoy.

Probably gonna develop different branches and section leaders so different people can do different things.

[dsmiles]

That's why I called it "Table Top Gaming". We weren't gonna do things like monopoly or yahtzee. But Risk and such are the sort of things that people might enjoy.

Probably gonna develop different branches and section leaders so different people can do different things.

Wargames are good. There are historical wargames that could almost qualify as educational. :smalltongue:

[Sir Swindle89]

If you run a game with 8-10 noobs it's going to be a disaster and you will fail. There i said it elephant in thread adressed.

HOWEVER I do ahev a gaming society at my college and it's rather sucessful so i do have some constructive suggestions.

-don't play 4E role playing is the most important part of a roleplaying game and 4E in no way supports roleplay (no creative use of spells/skills/ect.)

-have other games available, risk, things like that, there are some really fun really obscure games out there, we play Dominion a lot fo rexample.

-get another DM or a Co-DM 10 players is really hard to manage even in a simple game (i ran a WoD with a simular sized group) it's going to be impossible to keep track of 10 3.5E characters on your own.

-Keep their charactersheets, they prolly don't have a book keeping system set up yet, i assuem you do, just put them all in the folder with your DM notes.

-split the party and split it often
--if you have a CO-DM he can manage the other group while you focus on one set of players.
--otherwise it lets the rest of the group take a bit of a break until you're ready for them

[DragonBaneDM]

Just started one at mine, here's what I did.

I had a friend of mine DM a second game. They went after a dragon after fending off a kobold attack while my group hunted down a necromancer responsible for a zombie mob.

We also made pregenerated characters. You're typical Dwarf Greatweapon Fighter or Elf Archer Ranger, with flavorful feats and less than optimized magic items.

We also started at Level 5, which you may want to consider, especially for 3.X. More than 10 HP would be nice for them, and I think they can handle it.



At any rate, splitting the group worked for us. We now play every Saturday night for an hour or so, and I'm putting together a DM training class so that they can play if neither I nor the other 2 DMs can make it.

EDIT:


-don't play 4E role playing is the most important part of a roleplaying game and 4E in no way supports roleplay (no creative use of spells/skills/ect.)


Also, aren't we supposed to avoid avoid such subjects? Let's stick to helping him, not bashing each others' past time.

Whatever you play, if you make it fun and support your players' creativity, they'll have a blast man. Good luck, I hope it goes well! You have our support.

[dsmiles]

-don't play 4E role playing is the most important part of a roleplaying game and 4E in no way supports roleplay (no creative use of spells/skills/ect.)


I must respectfully disagree with this statement. This is entirely dependant on the DM, who simply needs to think outside the box. Strictly speaking, no edition of DnD supports roleplay.

[Sir Swindle89]

I must respectfully disagree with this statement. This is entirely dependant on the DM, who simply needs to think outside the box. Strictly speaking, no edition of DnD supports roleplay.

I'd say 3.5 encourages more imaginative use on abilities than 4e does which is a part of roleplaying in my eyes.

But someting like BESM or Amber Diceless certainly encourages it cuz theres so little crunch all you can do is RP.

[dsmiles]

Amber Diceless

Best. Game. EVAR!

[Kurald Galain]

Strictly speaking, no edition of DnD supports roleplay.
Incorrect. The second edition explicitly gives XP for good roleplaying. On the other hand, 4E has a few rules that ensure that a creative approach will be less effective than a standard approach (of course, a good DM will ignore those rules, but nevertheless they are rules).

[kestrel404]

Ignoring the edition wars/"change to my system" arguments, I've got a few suggestions for you.

1.) In regards to making a 'Board Gaming Club' instead of a 'Tabletop Gaming Club', I recommend that if you find it necessary to go that route, you should go even more general - go with the name "Strategic Games Club/Society/Whatever". This is both appropriate (I've never seen an RPG that didn't have strong elements of strategy) and very wholesome (most people hear the name and think 'Chess Club', which is close enough to the truth that it will work for you. Teaching strategy is a very education-oriented activity, and would be welcome at any school worthy of the title). In this case, I would recommend introducing a variety of strategy-oriented, RP heavy boardgames such as Small Worlds, Betrayal at House on the Hill, and the recent D&D 4e based board games like Castle Ravenloft (which will also teach the basic rules of D&D while you play).

2.) If the principle seems amenable to a gaming club but wants a reason as to why it should be hosted by a school, tell him that roleplaying requires decision making, cooperation, coordination, strategic thinking and the ability to do ones own research - and that's just for the players! Roleplaying is not a form of passive or even semi-passive entertainment like TV or a game of poker. The players may be having fun, but at the same time they are also practicing being creative, thinking on their feet and problem solving. In a well-run game, they're also learning the basics of literary and narrative style, being presented with educational moral and ethical dilemmas, and gaining experience in leadership skills. These are not buzzwords, and don't try to use them as such. Think about how each of these ideas applies to gaming, and make sure that if the Principal asks something like, "How do you expect your club members to learn cooperation from these games?", you'll be able to answer him intelligently.

3.) To start with, I strongly recommend using a couple of pre-written modules. Get recommendations for good ones (I haven't used many myself, and wouldn't recommend any of them to new players). Use the base classes in the SRD (not necessarily just the PHB, but don't start pulling out every sourcebook you can lay your hands on). Keep things relatively simple for at least the first few weeks/months. Adding material to the club should be done incrementally, to allow the players to get accustomed to all of the extra information. Just throwing two dozen books at a person and telling them "Make a character" is both frustrating and intimidating. Being able to tell them, "All you need to know is on the d20srd.com website", on the other hand, will allow them to pick things up at their own speed. Don't offer to make anyone's character for them. This is a trap. Offer help, give explanations, but do not force anyone to do anything. The exception to this is a one-shot game where you make ALL of the characters in advance (and you make a couple extra, and let the players choose which one they like best). But if you're going for a campaign style game, have the players make all the decisions, and then customize based on what they've chosen. Trust me, everything works better that way.

Hope that helps!

[Jayabalard]

you might look into incorporating other games: Settlers of Catan, Risk, Axis and allies, Chez Geek (and it's many variation), The Munchkin card game (and IT's many variations), etc.

[dsmiles]

you might look into incorporating other games: Settlers of Catan, Risk, Axis and allies, Chez Geek (and it's many variation), The Munchkin card game (and IT's many variations), etc.

...Illimunati...

[Sir Swindle89]

Red Dragon Inn, is a fun one too. It's a fighting card game style.

It's a bunch of D&D adventurers in an inn drinking, gambling, and fighting. (been meaning to make a drinking game out of it.)

[kyoryu]

Incorrect. The second edition explicitly gives XP for good roleplaying. On the other hand, 4E has a few rules that ensure that a creative approach will be less effective than a standard approach (of course, a good DM will ignore those rules, but nevertheless they are rules).

Such as?


...Illimunati...

YES!

[Dencero]

Thank you all for the advice. Monday is when we're getting our new principal and it appears I lucked out. He's supposed to be a really nice guy.

I've also discussed it with the rest of the members and all have suggested different games like Risk, Stratego, Warhammer 40k, Chess, Magic the Gathering, and a whole bunch of other games. We've got like 10 people interested now, and that's still without open advertising.

I've been thinking and rethinking, taking a bunch of notes and I've got multiple campaign setting designed for multiple game systems.

I have good feelings about the future of this club.

[Kurald Galain]

The Munchkin card game (and IT's many variations), etc.

Because a game that says "stab your buddy" on the cover will totally teach people to cooperate :smallbiggrin: