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molten_dragon
2010-10-25, 07:14 PM
Our party recently hit a bit of bad luck. We were exploring a dungeon, and accidentally activated a portal to the abyss. A couple minor demons have popped through and we've killed them handily, but we just spotted a Balor in the distance headed our way.

Our part is all level 11, and consists of:

Me, a wizard/master specialist/shadowcraft mage. A typical batman-type wizard. Uses shadow illusions to mimic a lot of battlefield control conjurations. Can also blast the crap out of stuff if the situation calls for it. Through the use of earth spell and practical metamagic, I can mimic 7th level spells.

Warmage. Blasts the crap out of stuff whether the situation calls for it or not.

Cleric/radiant servant of pelor. A fairly typical buffbot/healbot cleric. No dirty tricks that I know of.

Rogue/swordsage. Uses a pair of shortswords to stab things repeatedly in melee. Also our skillmonkey.

It's not really a party member, but we also have a greater stone golem with us.

Everyone is at full health, and is missing at most 1 or 2 mid-level spells, so we're essentially at full resources.

Running away is an option, we do have teleport available to us. However, we all like a challenge. And the amount of XP we'd get from killing the balor is phenomenal.

So can we do it? And how should we go about it?

If you need more information (like spells I have prepared) let me know.

dsmiles
2010-10-25, 07:18 PM
Technically, you should get xp for defeating the encounter. Sometimes fighting isn't the answer. Is closing the gate an option? If not, try negotiations.

Fawsto
2010-10-25, 07:26 PM
My advice? Close the portal or flee on sight.

A Balor played to its 24 Int will be something hard to get pass. Can your party's meleer even hit an AC of 35? Can he use manouvers to constantly hit touch ACs?

Does your cleric has access to banishment right now? Could be very useful, but it would have a small chance of success anyways.

I think this is a clear case of your DM saying "Run Away". If you guys are not OP, there are not many chances to survive an encounter so many levels above your party.

Maryring
2010-10-25, 07:29 PM
Negotiation is my suggestion. Before you even consider fighting, you need to consider your own saves. Balors have Implosion as a SLA. That could quickly spell disaster. And even then, unless you have spell immunity of any kind against Blasphemy, he can just say the word whenever he wants, then eat you at his leisure, since you'll be paralysed for 1d10 minutes.

Dr.Epic
2010-10-25, 07:30 PM
Why would a DM throw a balor at you at that level? Also, did you decide to fight it, like you approached the thing and it was just minding its business, or did the thing attack you?

Master Thrower
2010-10-25, 07:31 PM
Well 3 options.
1. Flee
2. Negotiate
3. Hope its an illusion and charge.
Balors= tough encounters at level 20. let alone before that.

dsmiles
2010-10-25, 07:34 PM
Negotiation is my suggestion. Before you even consider fighting, you need to consider your own saves. Balors have Implosion as a SLA. That could quickly spell disaster. And even then, unless you have spell immunity of any kind against Blasphemy, he can just say the word whenever he wants, then eat you at his leisure, since you'll be paralysed for 1d10 minutes.

Not only that, but consider the possibility that you actually win. Don't Balors have a nasty tendency to explode when they die?

molten_dragon
2010-10-25, 07:36 PM
Is closing the gate an option?

Possibly, we're looking into it, but we're not sure exactly what we did to open it, so closing it might be hard.



Can your party's meleer even hit an AC of 35?

Does your cleric has access to banishment right now? Could be very useful, but it would have a small chance of success anyways.

Well, the greater stone golem can hit him on anything but a 1, but no one else will be hitting him reliably.

The cleric does not have banishment prepared.


Why would a DM throw a balor at you at that level? Also, did you decide to fight it, like you approached the thing and it was just minding its business, or did the thing attack you?

I have no idea. Like I said in the OP, we somehow opened a portal to the abyss, and after a couple minutes, we saw it heading our way. We don't know for sure if it's going to attack us, but it's best to prepare for the worst.

Fawsto
2010-10-25, 07:38 PM
2 Words: Chaotic Evil.

Unless you are in Eberron, there are 99% of chance that this balor matches this alignment.

This means that, by definition of a high level Demon, he wants to destroy you. After it does that it will go around the material plane destroying something else. No stop.

Do you remember Gandalf and the Balrog? Things won't go that way. It will be worse.

Close the portal, seriously. The balor has SLA that surpass all the casters in the party.

Edit: Flee. Call the greatest wizard/cleric you can find and warn him.

Eldariel
2010-10-25, 07:38 PM
Spells matter a great deal. Access to Battlemagic Perception would make the fight much easier as an actual fight, for example. Now really though, if you wish to kill it, you'll need to either annihilate it in one round, or stop it from Teleporting out. Your Stone Golem should pretty reliably be able to Slow it as a free action and if the terrain isn't horribly open, maybe pound it a bit.

The most dangerous things the Balor can do are:
- Summon another Balor (this can't be chained, but two Balors can spell trouble).
- Blasphemy at will; for non-evil party members, this is more or less KO without save. I hope you have spell resistance in the mid 30s or some other means to negate this (Silence is a good one; preventing it from getting this off is very key).
- Dominate Monster at will; this'll quickly turn your party onto itself as few of you can probably make such a high DC will save consistently without a DMM: Persist Bot nearby. If you have some kind of mental protection in place, the fight will be a lot more doable.
- Implosion; this'll quickly turn people into blood pools if you can't make DC 27 Fort-saves or aren't incorporeal. It lacks types like Death or Polymorph which is highly inconvenient. Though if you are immune to effects offering Fort-saves (e.g. undeath or constructhood), that'd help.


So realistically, we're looking at two sacs of 290 HP with silly poor saves. If you happen to have access to Banishment, that could be a good move. It has SR but realistically, simple Assay Resistance should more or less make that a non-issue. If you could get a DC 30 out of Banishment, that could work; all you need is couple of objects opposed to Balor for that.

One option would be simple rush-in with Anti-Magic Field (scrolled or otherwise) and having the Golem beat the Balor up. Without magic, the Golem really matches up very well to the Balor. Indeed, if you somehow draw the creature's AoO (for example, by rushing next to it with an AMF on), you could have the Golem grapple it and probably win.


If it gets to act first though, expect bodies; it's offensively very potent and if you have to deal with two Balors...well, it'll hurt. A lot. So yeah, some kind of surprise would be optimal. With surprise, you could either try to banish it, blow it up, or grapple it. Grapple probably has the highest chance of success, but relies on it being in a position where your hulking Golem can get the drop on it, and you can land the AMF.

Once grappled tho, the Balor has nothing on the Golem; AMF shuts down its burning body and both Balor's weapons are unwieldable in a Grapple leaving it with nothing but Slams (+31 for 1d10+12; it can PA for 7 and expect to deal ~11 damage per turn through the Golem's DR, but the Golem naturally deals ~16 damage per turn through the Balor's DR and the Balor isn't breaking out of the Grapple at +36 vs. +52; the Balor goes down in 19 turns while the Golem would last 25).

Emmerask
2010-10-25, 07:39 PM
I don´t quite see what a level 11 party could offer the balor to open negotiations, well maybe their souls but well thats not something you will want to offer I guess.

My suggestion is close the portal, failing that flee

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-25, 07:40 PM
I think there was an OotS comic on this (Except they were higher level, and the Balor was some epic level colossal+ sized demon,) if you can pull off the right combination of curses to drop the Balor's saving throw (bypassing spell resistance,) then somehow work off a Save-or-Die spell, you'll probably die to the Balor's death throes, (I'd thought that the massive damage rules were much worse, putting the DC in the 30-50's for 100 damage, but it's a DC 15 Fort no matter what,) unless your party is extremely well endowed with HP (and Balors can eat through HP pretty quick,) your only hope is to find a way to Baleful Polymorph it before you kill it, and Baleful Polymorph quickly... but you probably don't have that spell prepared.

Otherwise, if you have means to close the gate, do so, otherwise run/negotiate.

Hold Portal, a level 1 spell is also an option if taken out of context,
"This spell magically holds shut a door,
GATE, window, or shutter of wood, metal, or
stone. The magic affects the portal just as if
it were securely closed and normally
locked. A knock spell or a successful dispel
magic spell can negate a hold portal spell.
For a portal affected by this spell, add 5 to
the normal DC for forcing open the portal."

Edit:

Grapple probably has the highest chance of success, but relies on it being in a position where your hulking Golem can get the drop on it, and you can land the AMF.
Golems operate without penalty in AMFs, the only constructs that might have a problem are animate objects, depending on how permanently animate they are.

Fawsto
2010-10-25, 07:45 PM
Which brings the question... What happens when a Golem enters an AMF?

Eldariel
2010-10-25, 07:46 PM
Which brings the question... What happens when a Golem enters an AMF?

Nothing special. Golems function fine in AMFs and the like. Like Undead, they don't need magic to subsist after their creation.

molten_dragon
2010-10-25, 07:51 PM
I think there was an OotS comic on this (Except they were higher level, and the Balor was some epic level colossal+ sized demon,) if you can pull off the right combination of curses to drop the Balor's saving throw (bypassing spell resistance,) then somehow work off a Save-or-Die spell, you'll probably die to the Balor's death throes, (I'd thought that the massive damage rules were much worse, putting the DC in the 30-50's for 100 damage, but it's a DC 15 Fort no matter what,) unless your party is extremely well endowed with HP (and Balors can eat through HP pretty quick,) your only hope is to find a way to Baleful Polymorph it before you kill it, and Baleful Polymorph quickly... but you probably don't have that spell prepared.

No baleful polymorph. My only save or die is phantasmal killer, which if boosted with heighten spell, could have a DC of 32. I've got a round to use Assay SR, which should let me penetrate its spell resistance fairly easily.

I may go for a quick phantasmal killer as soon as it comes through the portal, then use celerity and teleport out if it doesn't work. It's a low percentage shot, but would be awesome if it worked.

Of course, as you mentioned, we'd probably lose a couple people to the death throes.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-25, 07:52 PM
I really don't think you can beat this thing. Even with say a 50 pointbuy (yes, that is a ridiculous number, chosen for that point).

Its AC is going to be very high, so your rogue/ssg will have a hard time hitting once he runs out of maneuvers. he could of course attack every second turn as he keeps recharging a maneuver, but that's even worse.

It has phenomenal saves and SR in comparison to your party level. Many of your spells won't affect him if they allow SR or a save.

It has phenomenal save DCs, I don't think anyone can make even their best save more than 1 in 4, and even less for their bad saves. Dominate DC 27, your radiant servant might escape that one, too bad it's an At will. Greater dispel magic, there goes your buffs. Unholy aura, his AC and saves go up more, and if you manage to hit him, make a fort save vs strength damage. Your swordsage is a TWF right? 3 or 4 attacks a round? How many touch attacks can he make in a round? Because that's exactly how many d6 of strength damage he'll lose per turn.

Heck who cares about his other abilities, he's got Blasphemy. No save, no SR, dazed, paralyzed, weakened.

Finally, even if you do beat him, he's got those death throes. 50 or 100 points of damage, depending on a DC30 reflex save. How many does most of your party have?

In short, you're going to die if you stay there. Either close the portal, or run. If you need time to close the portal, perhaps a powerful summons sent INTO the abyss could delay him, or he could banish it with blasphemy. Better would be a wall of stone or force placed in the abyss and blocks the portal. That'll give you a few rounds to run or disable the thing.

Fawsto
2010-10-25, 07:54 PM
+11 inititive + Blasphemy = Trouble

Good to know. Will list a golem in an AMF as an encounter sooner or later to chalenge my players.

Eldariel
2010-10-25, 07:58 PM
No baleful polymorph. My only save or die is phantasmal killer, which if boosted with heighten spell, could have a DC of 32. I've got a round to use Assay SR, which should let me penetrate its spell resistance fairly easily.

I may go for a quick phantasmal killer as soon as it comes through the portal, then use celerity and teleport out if it doesn't work. It's a low percentage shot, but would be awesome if it worked.

Of course, as you mentioned, we'd probably lose a couple people to the death throes.

Anti-Magic Field would solve death throes, its SLAs and its most frightening martial abilities, hence why I suggested it.

Silence (or even damage; Balors' Concentration sucks), if you have access to Battlemagic Perception, could be readied to counter its SLAs.

Easiest would be just landing a SoL or SoD from a distance though. As long as it loses hard enough, that'd be it. Assay Resistance and True Casting give you 0% chance of failing to penetrate its SR (if you can get Assay from the Cleric, you could quicken True Casting and go for it) and even just Assay gives you relatively good chances especially since Shadowcraft Mage's Caster Level is inflated. Phantasmal Killer is bad tho simply because...well, it's bad. 2 saves; it's about 50/50 to botch one but both? Nuhhuh. You have access to all Evocations and Conjurations; see if you could find a SoL/SoD hard enough over those levels to slam on it.

Fawsto
2010-10-25, 08:01 PM
What is your current spell selection? For everybody.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-25, 08:07 PM
Assay SR is a swift action, then use your heightened phantasmal killer in a surprise round (and the balor not getting to act in the surprise round), or say that you're readying your full action for when the balor passes through the portal, giving you guaranteed init over the Balor for one round. The chances of you making your caster level check (even with assay SR) and the balor failing the heightened phantasmal killer is 37.5% (75% chance of bypassing SR x 50% chance save failure.) VERY good chances for what the reward is... except for the whole death throes, unless you can think up a way to get out of there, like someone else readying a circle teleport just as the phantasmal killer goes off, or the cleric having some sort of clericy... anti... everything bubble shield.

Remember, you don't have to outsmart the 22 INT of the Balor, the DM likely doesn't have an INT score close to that (maybe 16 at the highest)

Soren Hero
2010-10-25, 10:44 PM
i have a two questions, then a suggestion...as i've neve played a shadowcraft mage before.

Question 1: Can you use your SCM abilities to mimic a Simulacrum spell (say use a lower level illusion to cast it)?
Question 2: If so, would it take the time of the lower level spell to cast it (say, one standard action)?

Suggestion: If so, burn a lower level illusion spell to mimic a simulacrum spell. Instead of 12 hour cast time of Simulacrum, it would only need a standard action (i think)...then you have a mini Balor to fight the Balor. If you can cast a quickened Simulacrum-illusion spell, that makes two mini-Balors on your team. It could give you a chance to win the fight, or at least enough time to run away.

Arcane_Secrets
2010-10-25, 11:04 PM
Balors have always active true seeing, so this might influence which illusion spells get used in strategy against it.

Last Laugh
2010-10-25, 11:06 PM
I don't think that a Shadow Craft mage can quick cast a Simulacrum spell (It isn't Evocation or Conjuration).

Zaydos
2010-10-25, 11:09 PM
Assay SR is a swift action, then use your heightened phantasmal killer in a surprise round (and the balor not getting to act in the surprise round), or say that you're readying your full action for when the balor passes through the portal, giving you guaranteed init over the Balor for one round. The chances of you making your caster level check (even with assay SR) and the balor failing the heightened phantasmal killer is 37.5% (75% chance of bypassing SR x 50% chance save failure.) VERY good chances for what the reward is... except for the whole death throes, unless you can think up a way to get out of there, like someone else readying a circle teleport just as the phantasmal killer goes off, or the cleric having some sort of clericy... anti... everything bubble shield.

Remember, you don't have to outsmart the 22 INT of the Balor, the DM likely doesn't have an INT score close to that (maybe 16 at the highest)

The chance is much worse than that actually, since Phantasmal Killer gives them two saves and since it's actually highly questionable (and definitely not RAW) if you get Swift actions in a surprise round (1 standard or move only with even free actions listed as at the DM's discretion). If the DM allows a quickened spell even then the chance is much worse (20.25%) due to it getting two saves (one at 60% chance of failure and one at a 45% chance of failure). Still worth trying; if you have a surprise round it's worth trying even without Assay Spell (6.75% chance of success) but might not be worth the Death Throes.

jumpet
2010-10-25, 11:18 PM
The most dangerous things the Balor can do are:
- Summon another Balor (this can't be chained, but two Balors can spell trouble).


I'd cry foul if the Balor did this, the ability description specifically says it is reluctant to use this ability. I guess it the equivalent of crying home to mummy and asking for help. If the Balor needs to go asking other Balor's for help to beat some puny 11th level adventurers then I think I know why this Balor is out and about. He's been booted out of the abyss for being a big girl's blouse. :smallbiggrin:

I like the antimagic idea, but you'll need to corner him so he can't escape it.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-26, 12:32 AM
The chance is much worse than that actually, since Phantasmal Killer gives them two saves and since it's actually highly questionable (and definitely not RAW) if you get Swift actions in a surprise round (1 standard or move only with even free actions listed as at the DM's discretion). If the DM allows a quickened spell even then the chance is much worse (20.25%) due to it getting two saves (one at 60% chance of failure and one at a 45% chance of failure). Still worth trying; if you have a surprise round it's worth trying even without Assay Spell (6.75% chance of success) but might not be worth the Death Throes.

The version of Assay Spell Resistance gives the caster +10 caster level checks to beat the SR of one creature, there is no failure chance to this spell as it targets the caster.
Also note that a readied action is not a surprise round, it's a full round that you ready for an event, though the ruling on how this works is up to the DM. Not going to look up the DCs of the shadows he's crafting as a shadowcraft master illusionist, but I will assume that they don't do anything but let him get a DC 32 for the save or die. And I don't know what you're getting at with the quickened spell, he should be able to cast Assay SR then phantasmal killer in about the time of a standard action (unless he's a sorcerer, but he's not as he's a master specialist.) Eldariel has a 75% chance of beating his SR. The Balor has a 50% chance of failing the fort save, and (yes I had overlooked the will save part) has a 65% chance of failing that too. My numbers come out to 24.375% chance of success, counting in the will save as well.

FelixG
2010-10-26, 12:40 AM
Make a deal with him.

One thing you could offer: If he somehow gets killed and sent back to his home, he can send you a message and you come back to open the portal up for him again.

Maryring
2010-10-26, 12:41 AM
Considering that the Balor is already aware of the party, and is currently on his way to invite the PCs to his own party. I don't see how there can be a surprise round. So... he'll probably beat your Initiative, or at least act pretty high up. Since it can teleport at will and fly, it can easily stay outside reach of your melee types while laughing and blaspheming if you don't hurry away. Hold portal, then run, or be prepared to beg is my suggestion.

Amiel
2010-10-26, 12:49 AM
Anti-Magic Field would solve death throes[...]

Actually, I don't think an anti-magic field will solve the problem of death throes.
A balor's death throes is an Ex ability.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-26, 01:17 AM
Its all up to initiative here. If most of your party gets it over the Balor you can win maybe win. I just checked Evard's Black Tentacles and they aren't going to grapple it. It's will save is 19, so if you have mind fog prepped you might be able to use that and follow it up with some save-or-dies. Essentially you need to keep it from doing anything for a few turns so your rogue can cut its back to shreds.

LordBlades
2010-10-26, 01:46 AM
TBH, I really don't think your party can do it.

First of all, if a Balor gets a Blasphemy off, you're done for(no save Paralysis).
As you apparently don't have any way to become immune to it, your best bet is to try and kill him before he gets to cast one. An ubercharger could probably one shot him at this level, but since you don't have one, your best bet (as other psoters have said) is to win initiative and get somebody with an AMF close to the balor, and find a way to keep him from flying off).

The other SLAs are not nearly as dangerous. You can block Dominate Monster with Protection from Evil/Chaos, Implosion could kill only 1 char if he fails his save (you should be able to break his concentration after round 1).

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 01:48 AM
Detect magic to find whatever's powering the portal and dispel it?

Throw a book at your DM for having such a drawn out episode of rocks fall, you die?

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-26, 03:55 AM
Well, hell, if Eldariel has an AMF, then he can just close the magic portal with that, but I didn't think he did.

Killer Angel
2010-10-26, 04:25 AM
we just spotted a Balor in the distance headed our way.


Your DM doesn't want you to fight the Balor. The Balor it's a sign: "you opened a portal with hells, this is no place for you. You will deal with this later". He's giving you time to run away (or close the portal, if you can), not to prepare the fight.
Or to try a negotiation, if you think it's feasible.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 05:16 AM
On another note. There was an E6 challenge to kill a balor effectively. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998)

It was won.

an ECL 11 party might be able to capitalize on something like that extemporaneously in a pinch.

Maryring
2010-10-26, 05:18 AM
Balors can fly, so why wouldn't he fly? He can stay outside your general reach and use his whip to drag you up to him where he can tear you apart.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 05:30 AM
Balors can fly, so why wouldn't he fly? He can stay outside your general reach and use his whip to drag you up to him where he can tear you apart.

They're inside and he can only target them through a portal that he is some distance from.

Mastikator
2010-10-26, 05:45 AM
Distance is no issue since Balors can greater teleport at will. They need to close it before the Balor sees them or the portal.
I'm pretty sure Balors have good eyes too, really good eyes. Spectacularly good even. Basically they have 1 round before he teleports up to them, blasphemises them to paralysis and eats them alive.

In the worst case scenario, of course.

Maryring
2010-10-26, 05:54 AM
Oh right. Dungeon. The Balor can still whip the guys into hell if he wants though. So he can easily stay outside the radius of AMF and Silence and still be a danger.

prufock
2010-10-26, 08:22 AM
Questionable legality, but do it for the story:

Thirteen wands of bless water. Scroll of Teleport Object.
Teleport 50 lbs per level at minimum CL = 650 lbs = 294.8 kgs = 294.8 litres = 622.1 pints.
1 pint of holy water deals 2d4 damage to evil outsiders on direct hit, for an average of 5. Assuming direct hit for all 622.1 pints, that's 3110.5 damage. Even if he gets a reflex save for half, that's still more than his 290 hp. Even if he takes ONLY splash damage, and saves for half, it's STILL more than 290.

Maryring
2010-10-26, 08:52 AM
And they have thirteen wands of bless water and a scroll of teleport object? Nevermind the logistics and the fact that they won't have 65 minutes and six seconds to do all of this, and that's assuming they already have all the water ready.

Nifty effort though.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 08:55 AM
Though the mental image of bullrushing an undead or demon into a portable hole full of holy water is pretty amusing...

prufock
2010-10-26, 09:04 AM
And they have thirteen wands of bless water and a scroll of teleport object? Nevermind the logistics and the fact that they won't have 65 minutes and six seconds to do all of this, and that's assuming they already have all the water ready.

Nifty effort though.

Well, it would have to come after the "run away" option. It's possible they have 12,025 gold between them with which to buy the necessary materials (depending entirely on the availability of magic items). They have a teleport available, so presumably they could buy the time necessary.


Though the mental image of bullrushing an undead or demon into a portable hole full of holy water is pretty amusing...

That would be fun! But it requires getting closer to a balor than I would like. And soaking the AoO. And beating the +16 opposed check.

Jan Mattys
2010-10-26, 09:05 AM
Distance is no issue since Balors can greater teleport at will. They need to close it before the Balor sees them or the portal.
I'm pretty sure Balors have evil eyes too, really evil eyes. Spectacularly evil even. Basically they have 1 round before he teleports up to them, blasphemises them to paralysis and eats them alive.

Fixed it for you.
:smallbiggrin:

dsmiles
2010-10-26, 09:07 AM
Though the mental image of bullrushing an undead or demon into a portable hole full of holy water is pretty amusing...

We did something similar. There was this houserule in our 2e games that sticking the tip of your finger into the portable hole or bag of holding and using the command word, "Empty," would spew forth everything in the container. We dropped an entire portable hole full of arrows onto an orc warband from the top of a cliff. Specifically, the cliff they were climbing to get to us. The cliff was high enough for the arrows to achieve terminal velocity. Well, terminal to the orcs, at least. :smallwink:

Smuzilla
2010-10-26, 10:02 AM
So this fight hinges on the two character you have minimized which I think is hillarious. The cleric and the Stone Golem. His two most awesome powers the dominate and blasphemy can be negated by a magic circle against evil, silence, or just sticking crap in your ears.

The implosion is going to be rough but in order for him to cast that he cant do anything else except focus on you one at a time which if he is arrogant he probably will not do. You need to get a cold iron weapon in that golems hands and then cast align weapon (cleric) on it and watch the fun begin. That golem has high strength and to hit scores and is straight out immune to everything that balor can do. I hope you have the silly spells that provide full healing to the stone golem like transmute mud to rock or can duplicate them. Give him a cold iron dagger and cast align and tell him to grapple the crap out of that balor to remove the fly danger aspect.

Remember if he is grappled he still has to pass the concentration checks for his at will abilities like teleport and what not. If the weapon you give the stone golem is small "to it" then he can use it in a grapple. Hell, it might even make a mistake and try to whip the stone golem and pull it closer. What would make this a lot easier is if you Mr. Wizard have antimagic field. Golem grapples Balor and you cast antimagic field at the end of the fight and go stand by the Balor shutting down his teleport escape and blow up explosion.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 10:11 AM
Good point about the magic circle against evil working against the dominate.

Though silence won't counteract SLAs at all. :/
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.


Remember if he is grappled he still has to pass the concentration checks for his at will abilities like teleport and what not. If the weapon you give the stone golem is small "to it" then he can use it in a grapple. Hell, it might even make a mistake and try to whip the stone golem and pull it closer. What would make this a lot easier is if you Mr. Wizard have antimagic field. Golem grapples Balor and you cast antimagic field at the end of the fight and go stand by the Balor shutting down his teleport escape and blow up explosion.

Sadly, antimagic field doesn't have an impact on extraordinary special abilities, so disarming the balor of its magical whip and sword might be the only way to even partially recoup the loss of a party member and/or the golem to the combat/throes.
Death Throes (Ex)

When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Zaydos
2010-10-26, 10:14 AM
Also grappling the balor does nothing unless it is completely in an antimagic field as it auto-passes concentration checks to use Lv 9 SLA in a grapple.

Myth
2010-10-26, 10:15 AM
This is all great and stuff but the Blaor sees the party as well, so there will be no surprise rounds. As soon as he is within distance the DM can roll initative. If the portal is big enough he can fly trough it and land in the middle of the party. When he sees the Golem there he can Teleport somewhere out of reach. Then he can proceed to stomp them.

And no way is that Golem getting the jump on a Balor.

Cyclocone
2010-10-26, 10:17 AM
Blasphemy is [sonic], so Silence shuts it down, even if it's a SLA.

Eldariel
2010-10-26, 10:18 AM
This is all great and stuff but the Blaor sees the party as well, so there will be no surprise rounds. As soon as he is within distance the DM can roll initative. If the portal is big enough he can fly trough it and land in the middle of the party. When he sees the Golem there he can Teleport somewhere out of reach. Then he can proceed to stomp them.

And no way is that Golem getting the jump on a Balor.

Invisible Spells could help to turn its True Seeing against it; e.g. Invisible Fog Cloud on the party - doesn't hamper the party but the thing can't see the party. Or Invisible Solid Fog on it. Or something.

Zaydos
2010-10-26, 10:21 AM
This is all great and stuff but the Blaor sees the party as well, so there will be no surprise rounds. As soon as he is within distance the DM can roll initative. If the portal is big enough he can fly trough it and land in the middle of the party. When he sees the Golem there he can Teleport somewhere out of reach. Then he can proceed to stomp them.

And no way is that Golem getting the jump on a Balor.

Even if they do get a surprise round it's rather moot as everything suggested to do with it involved using a Swift and a Standard action which you cannot do during a Surprise Round or with using a Readied Action for a full round action (Ready Action specifies 1 standard, move, or free action; updated in Rules Comp to be 1 Standard, Move, Swift, or Free action) to use 1 standard and 1 swift action (which cannot be done with a full round action to begin with).

Now there are things they could do with a surprise round if they had it (Magic Circle against Evil, Antimagic Field, etc) but without those their really only hope is "Win initiative" which is dependent on luck, followed by "nuke it just cause we can" then "celerity + teleport" when that almost certainly fails (actually a 20% chance of success with Assay SR).

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 10:30 AM
Blasphemy is [sonic], so Silence shuts it down, even if it's a SLA.

Ahh, good to know.

Maryring
2010-10-26, 10:49 AM
Though when they are inside the silence field, they're really shafted, since they are three casters, and he is still a big bad balor with a sword that decaps on a natural 20, a whip that can strike them from outside the silence field, and the strength to carry a wizard and a warmage under each arm if he wanted. And the moment he and one of the PCs is outside the silence? Then it is time to blaspheme.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think mundane means of stopping Blasphemy works.)

true_shinken
2010-10-26, 10:52 AM
Your group seems optimized. If you manage to shield yourselves from blasphemy and get fire resistance, it should be kinda easy. Watch out for Implosion, though.

Quietus
2010-10-26, 11:06 AM
Though when they are inside the silence field, they're really shafted, since they are three casters, and he is still a big bad balor with a sword that decaps on a natural 20, a whip that can strike them from outside the silence field, and the strength to carry a wizard and a warmage under each arm if he wanted. And the moment he and one of the PCs is outside the silence? Then it is time to blaspheme.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think mundane means of stopping Blasphemy works.)

Actually, they don't have their sword in the antimagic field :


Vorpal Sword (Su)

Every balor carries a +1 vorpal longsword that looks like a flame or a bolt of lightning.

As it's a (Su) ability, their sword vanishes inside the antimagic field.

dsmiles
2010-10-26, 11:11 AM
Actually, they don't have their sword in the antimagic field :



As it's a (Su) ability, their sword vanishes inside the antimagic field.

Silence, not AMF. So the sword is a valid fear.

Zaydos
2010-10-26, 11:12 AM
Actually, they don't have their sword in the antimagic field :



As it's a (Su) ability, their sword vanishes inside the antimagic field.

You quoted them talking about the radius of a Silence spell, not Anti-magic Field.

Note if your swordsage has a cold iron weapon he and the golem have a very good chance inside an anti-magic field, throw in some Orbs of Force from the Warmage and it shouldn't last long; just be careful for the Death Throws. Course you must get within 5-ft of the grapple between the golem and the tanar'ri's turn as it can still teleport unless completely within the antimagic field.

Quietus
2010-10-26, 11:14 AM
Silence, not AMF. So the sword is a valid fear.

... Wait, Silence isn't AMF? Damn, my group was lying to me! :smallsigh:

Mouth, meet foot...

Myth
2010-10-26, 11:15 AM
IMO the only chance will be to have him grappled and gagged (free action when pinning) by the golem in an AMF. But that's not going to happen easily.

BTW if AMF is an emanation, will a big arse stone golem block the emanation for the Balor behind it?

dsmiles
2010-10-26, 11:17 AM
IMO the only chance will be to have him grappled and gagged (free action when pinning) by the golem in an AMF. But that's not going to happen easily.

BTW if AMF is an emanation, will a big arse stone golem block the emanation for the Balor behind it?

It's a creature (technically), so I don't think it would.

Dr.Epic
2010-10-26, 11:23 AM
I have no idea. Like I said in the OP, we somehow opened a portal to the abyss, and after a couple minutes, we saw it heading our way. We don't know for sure if it's going to attack us, but it's best to prepare for the worst.

Well, you don't have to have the highest base land speed, you just can't have the lowest if you know what I mean. Run like hell! And no, I was trying to make a pun their even though you're in the Abyss.

Thrawn183
2010-10-26, 11:30 AM
You could send the golem through the portal to meet the thing. Might help with the whole, balor being in the midst of the entire group, wrecking your ****.

Maryring
2010-10-26, 11:46 AM
Well, inside an AMF... he still has a strength score that's likely higher than that of the whole group put together. :P

Also, where's the idea that cold iron is enough? Balors have DR against Cold Iron AND Good. And weapons only get the good property through certain enchantments, or some specifics of the wielder (such as feats or being a good outsider). And the enchantments would fade within an AMF anyway...

Although, I'm a bit curious. Why do you have a CR 16 golem wandering around with you?

dsmiles
2010-10-26, 11:50 AM
Well, inside an AMF... he still has a strength score that's likely higher than that of the whole group put together. :P

Also, where's the idea that cold iron is enough? Balors have DR against Cold Iron AND Good. And weapons only get the good property through certain enchantments, or some specifics of the wielder (such as feats or being a good outsider). And the enchantments would fade within an AMF anyway...

Although, I'm a bit curious. Why do you have a CR 16 golem wandering around with you?

Inside the AMF (according to the Sage Advice column) the 'and Good' portion goes away, making it just 'Cold Iron'.

Zaydos
2010-10-26, 11:56 AM
Inside the AMF (according to the Sage Advice column) the 'and Good' portion goes away, making it just 'Cold Iron'.

Also according to the MM errata.

Chen
2010-10-26, 11:58 AM
You can put the golem on the Abyss side of the portal and hold off the Balor until you can either close the portal or get away. This is of course assuming effects don't pass through the portal either way and that the demon can't actually teleport through the portal (has to actually walk through it). I don't see a reasonable way if you have no AMF to actually beat the Balor. Though I suppose if you have a dimensional anchor and make it stick you could have the golem try and grapple him to death. Still risky as he can probably still blasphemy anyone to paralysis if you're on the same side of the portal has him.

Maryring
2010-10-26, 11:59 AM
Oh. Interesting.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 12:47 PM
Hmmmm, don't have the book on me, but could someone check if Stun Ray (SpC, Wiz7) is a Conjouration(Creation) subtype spell (and thus emulatable with Shadow Illusion)? If so, you could stunlock the Balor for 3-4 rounds even if it makes all of it's saves (Stun Ray is minimum 1 round, failed save means 1d4+1 rounds). That would buy you a few rounds to get your golem into position to grapple it and AMF the area. The only probably might be if demons in general have blanket electrical immunity which explicitly blocks Stun Ray. I know between demons and devils, one of them has it, but I forget which.

Emmerask
2010-10-26, 12:53 PM
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing

The Balor does have it

faceroll
2010-10-26, 12:53 PM
I'd like to point out that shadowcraft shenanigans won't work in the Abyss, as it's not co-terminous with the plane of shadow. Check out the manual of the planes, I think there are more details there.

Magikeeper
2010-10-26, 01:34 PM
I'd like to point out that shadowcraft shenanigans won't work in the Abyss, as it's not co-terminous with the plane of shadow. Check out the manual of the planes, I think there are more details there.

It mentions that for the demi-planes. It does not say anything about the outer planes and it depends on how planes work in their game anyway.

Besides, they are standing in the material plane.

Speaking of shadow illusion - if the balor cannot teleport through an open gate then shadow wall of force might solve your problem. A balor does not have anyway to destroy/remove it.

If it can get through, Shadow Forcecage could buy time if you go first and can beat SR 28. It blocks line of effect. Yes, the balor can teleport - but that uses up its action. If it can't teleport across the gate, then shadow wall of force is an even better stalling option.

Zaydos
2010-10-26, 02:09 PM
It mentions that for the demi-planes. It does not say anything about the outer planes and it depends on how planes work in their game anyway.


Page 62; read the "Without the Plane of Shadows" sidebar it specifies that the above limitations apply to the Outer and Inner Planes. Although yes it does depend upon how planes work in their game, and whether they can even cast spells through the gate.

WinWin
2010-10-26, 02:14 PM
Telekenisis could be handy. If only as a means to hurl the Balor away before it detonates. Of course, if your caster is readying an action to do this, they are not helping take it down.

Emmerask
2010-10-26, 02:30 PM
Telekenisis could be handy. If only as a means to hurl the Balor away before it detonates. Of course, if your caster is readying an action to do this, they are not helping take it down.

A balor stands about 12 feet tall. Its skin is usually dark red. It weighs about 4,500 pounds

A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level)

I don´t think telekinesis will do much ^^

WinWin
2010-10-26, 02:45 PM
TBH, the only time I have played against a Balor, Dispel Evil was on the table.

Never even noticed the weight before. I think it is funny that TK has a chance of grappling the Balor, but no chance of pushing around.

Malbordeus
2010-10-26, 03:42 PM
hmm, its just about do-able i think.

ignore insta-kills, they wont work. go with garuntee'd spells if possible.

if the warmage can get a maximised enervate through the balor's SR, it should make it much more likely for the killer to work. I like the stun ray if you get assay up early, then you can stun it each round...

Emmerask
2010-10-26, 03:50 PM
I like the stun ray if you get assay up early, then you can stun it each round...

Stun ray does not work if the target has electricity immunity, which the balor has no amount of assay spell resistance will help you in that case.

molten_dragon
2010-10-26, 03:57 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone. Below is a list of my prepared spells, since someone asked for it at one point.

Level 0
2x detect magic
2x read magic

Level 1
4x silent image (heightened to level 3)
ray of clumsiness
ray of enfeeblement
benign transposition

Level 2
3x silent image (heightened to level 4)
invisibility
mirror image
alter self
baleful transposition

Level 3
4x silent image (heightened to level 5)
haste
unluck

Level 4
3x silent image (heightened to level 6)
greater invisibility
2x celerity
assay spell resistance

Level 5
3x silent image (heightened to level 7)
dimension jumper

Level 6
3x silent image (heightened to level 8)
brilliant blade

Our rogue/swordsage is a whisper gnome, so she can use silence 1/day on herself. That would protect the party from blasphemy at least. I could still cast (my illusions at least) from within it due to the shadowcraft mage silent illusion ability.

I'm not sure if our cleric has an AMF prepared if not. If he doesn't, I'm just going to teleport everyone out (We have a 1/day teleport item) and come back when we're more prepared. If he does, we might try to go for it.

For those asking how we got ahold of the greater stone golem, well, the DM kind of regrets that one.

We found an altar that we could perform a ritual sacrifice at (it accepted summoned creatures) and the result was a single magic item costing 50k gp or less. We wished for a greater stone golem manual.

Zaydos
2010-10-26, 04:06 PM
Here's a question what's your CL on Teleport? To teleport 3 party members and the golem will require CL 21.

Noodles2375
2010-10-26, 04:12 PM
T
Our rogue/swordsage is a whisper gnome, so she can use silence 1/day on herself. That would protect the party from blasphemy at least. I could still cast (my illusions at least) from within it due to the shadowcraft mage silent illusion ability.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm

Since the balor uses blasphemy as an SLA, I don't think it has to use any particular components. Moreover, nowhere in the spell description does it say you have to "hear" the blasphemy spell to be affected by it. The spell block just says it is a 40ft spread centered on the balor. I don't think silence helps you at all in this situation.

Edit:
From the srd:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 04:19 PM
Yea, spells with the [Sonic] descriptor have to be heard to be affected.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-26, 04:21 PM
The spell block just says it is a 40ft spread centered on the balor. I don't think silence helps you at all in this situation.
Edit:
From the srd:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally.
All that just means that they can't disrupt his SLA's via grappling or damage. Not sure if they can be counterspelled.


from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#sonicAttacks)

Sonic Attacks

Unless otherwise noted, a sonic attack follows the rules for spreads. The range of the spread is measured from the creature using the sonic attack. Once a sonic attack has taken effect, deafening the subject or stopping its ears does not end the effect. Stopping one’s ears ahead of time allows opponents to avoid having to make saving throws against mind-affecting sonic attacks, but not other kinds of sonic attacks (such as those that deal damage). Stopping one’s ears is a full-round action and requires wax or other soundproof material to stuff into the ears. Blasphemy also has the [Sonic] descriptor so this becomes a valid option. On the hand, how many 11th level parties still carry candles? (And hot wax would hurt, properly speaking they'd need something softer like beeswax)

Noodles2375
2010-10-26, 04:24 PM
Yea, spells with the [Sonic] descriptor have to be heard to be affected.

Read fail. Totally missed the Sonic descriptor.:smallredface:

hamishspence
2010-10-26, 04:25 PM
Blasphemy isn't explicitly mind-affecting though- it's an Evocation spell.

Plugging the ears only prevents you from needing to make a save- and only if the spell is mind-affecting- most of the effects of blasphemy allow no save. The banishment effect does allow a save though.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 04:31 PM
All that just means that they can't disrupt his SLA's via grappling or damage. Not sure if they can be counterspelled.

SLAs can be counterspelled. Its really hard to ID them though, since they have no components to see or hear (see Counterspelling description for details). If, however, you had some form of detection magic running that would allow you to ID spells being cast around you (such as the Battlemagic Perception or Duelward spells, or a Ring of GREATER Counterspells or Spellbattle), you could totally counterspell one.

SU's can NOT be counterspelled, though, in the case of feats like Supernatural Transformation or abilities such as Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell ability.

molten_dragon
2010-10-26, 04:40 PM
Here's a question what's your CL on Teleport? To teleport 3 party members and the golem will require CL 21.

We usually just stick the golem in our enveloping pit to teleport him. If we absolutely have to, we can leave him behind, but I'm hoping that the balor is cautious enough that we've got time to load him up and GTFO.


@Molten_dragon, what can those silent images be used for? I have zilch familiarity with shadow conjuration / shadowcrafting / etc. Can you mimic conjuration spells (such as nether trail) or spells like 'prismatic wall' with them?

edit:

I just noticed that if you're 10 HD below the casting level, not only would blasphemy kill you, but you'd also be paralyzed, weakened, and dazed.

edit2: Freedom of movement would negate the paralysis--is something like that that shadow-conjurable?

I can use the silent images to mimic any evocation, conjuration (creation) or conjuration (summoning) spell. I can mimic a spell that is one level lower than the spell I'm using to mimic it with, so at most I can mimic 7th level spells.

Nether trail sounds like a good option, what book is that from?

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 04:42 PM
You'd still be dazed. Dazed for 1d4 rounds with a balor is as good as dead, paralysis or no.

Zaydos
2010-10-26, 04:51 PM
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

No counterspell on SLAs actually. It's questionable if Dispel Magic works even as a Rules of the Game article uses suggests using it to counterspell an SLA but one of the books (can't remember which right now) actually lists it as something that can't be done.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 05:05 PM
The only spell I can think of that gives immunity to daze is Favor of the Martyr, a Paladin4 spell. Sadly, its not on any other spell list.

There are a couple ways to get out of daze though. Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness allows you to make a save as a move action even if you are dazed, and even if the daze effect doesn't normally allow a save (if it doesn't, you establish a save using their formula and roll it). A Third Eye: Clarity will end a daze effect as an immediate action, but only once per day so it wouldn't help you on any round after the first.

Also, when you Shadow Illusion a spell, it explicity is affected by SR because its based of Silent Image which has SR.

I almost forgot about something. Your cleric is NG, right? There is a 2nd level cleric spell in CChampion called Turn Anathema. It allows you to take a single component of your alignment ([Good] in his case) and turn outsiders with the opposite subtype ([Evil] in his case) as if they were undead. That means he only has to have an effective TU level as a 20th level cleric. Granted, he probably doesn't have the spell memorized nor does he probably have the gear to augement his effective TU level, but its a thought for the future if you do flee and fight it again. With just a Phylactery of Undead Turning, an Ephod of Authority (MIC), your 11th level RSoP would have an effective turning level of 16 before rolling. A result of 21+ would allow him to turn 20 HD [Evil] outsiders. If he got Sacred (A&EG) on his armor and shield, he'd have an effective turning level of 20 before rolling, which would mean he'd only need a check of what, 10 or higher which is easy to automake as long as you didn't tank your Cha. Once you have that plan, Dim Anchor or Dim Lock the balor so it can't teleport away, then turn it, back it into a corner, beat it with melee attacks until its low, and then finish it with ranged attacks so you don't get bloweded up by Death Throes. Thats almost farm-status easy!

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-26, 05:26 PM
Against a Balor, try this:

1. Run away. I don't care how powerful you guys are, at least one of you will be incapacitated or killed in the encounter, unless your DM is nice and tries to spread the damage between all of you and take out the golem first. If you can dodge the thing, that's your best bet, if you want to see how things go (without teleport). If you want, make it hard on it- collapsing ground,
2. If it chases you, try to talk it out of killing you, like some other people suggested. Your DM may let you get out of it with a sidequest, or at the cost of some monies or something. However, DO NOT WALK UP TO IT; ONLY TRY THIS IF IT CATCHES UP TO YOU.
3. If negotiation fails, or you're really hell-bent (heh, hell-bent, get it?) on defeating it, try to take it by surprise. Maybe while you negotiate, try to sneak the swordsage dude (henceforth 'Stabby') around behind it, open up with your best attacks, and beat the crap out of it. Stabby should try to avoid its attacks, obviously, but the spellcasters should back off and get ready for a teleport. Get the golem up close and have it wail away at the Balor until one of them dies. If all else fails, do a Gandalf: collapse the ground beneath it, sacrifice one of you, bring down the ceiling on it, trick it into going back into the portal or something, whatever. But unless you're lucky, this thing'll kill you fast.

Once my old adventure group- two wizards, an elf rogue-ninja-ranger(enough classes there?), a monk-paladin (rogue and paladin, fun!), and me, a fighter- met a Balor once. The first wizard died in one round, before any of us could get off an attack. We were all around level 21. ...Yeah. Teleport the instant you need to.

Other than that, I've got nothing else to say.

Magikeeper
2010-10-26, 05:28 PM
So, can the Balor teleport through the gate? If not, a wall of force in front of the gate still stops it (what %real is your highest level spell slot? 100%?)

Maryring
2010-10-26, 05:29 PM
No you didn't. You've been mentioning Nether Trail many times already. :smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 05:36 PM
If he's using an (effective) 8th level slot to emulate a 7th level spell. SCM3 gives +20% quasireality, so 80+20 is 100% reality if he burns his highest level slot to do it. If he doesn't, he could get by with an (effective) 6th level slot combined with the Enhanced Shadow Reality feat from the FRCS, IIRC, to hit 100% quasireality. Irregardless, he still has to check SR because its based on Silent Image, but if he has the Gnomie Illusionist Racial Sub level from Races of Stone, he's heightening a 0th level Silent Image up to effectively 8th level which gives +8 CL boost thanks to Earth Spell. That means he's at CL19 barring any other shananiganery like Spell Pen, Third Eye Penetrate, or other CL boosts like Craft Magic Tattoo or an Orange IWIN Stone. If he has the Arcane Mastery feat from CArcane, he could take 10 to hit SR29 with no roll. If the Balor has Unholy Aura up, that requires 34, so barring Assay Spell Resistance or any other modifiers, he'd have to roll a 15+ to hit with any of his ScM Shadow Illusion spells.

This is why most ScM don't ban Conjouration, despite being able to emulate about half of the spells on it. SR:No is one of the main selling points of the Conjouration school, and using Shadow Illusion usurps that. Also, the entire Teleport subschool can not be emulated with Shadow Illusion, which hurts a TON.

Maryring
2010-10-26, 05:51 PM
You did actually. Back on page two, in the quote box...

Nether Trail!!!

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-26, 06:25 PM
If you have a silence spell available, you win hands down. I haven't seen if you've mentioned that one is available though.

Zaydos
2010-10-26, 06:40 PM
If you have a silence spell available, you win hands down. I haven't seen if you've mentioned that one is available though.

How is it hand's down? Implosion can still take out a mage in one go (Fort DC 27) and that's ignoring its full-attack (what with so far their only options to kill it being Greater Stone Giant full-attack or Heightened Phantasmal Killer with 20% chance of success. If they have Silence they stand a chance of surviving its Blasphemy SLA as long as they are all within the area of Silence which leaves them vulnerable to Dominate Monster (Fort DC 27) unless they cast Magic Circle against Evil first which we don't know if they have time for. It also means if things do go wrong they can't use Celerity + Teleport (both have Verbal components) to get out of their alive.

molten_dragon
2010-10-26, 06:42 PM
If he's using an (effective) 8th level slot to emulate a 7th level spell. SCM3 gives +20% quasireality, so 80+20 is 100% reality if he burns his highest level slot to do it. If he doesn't, he could get by with an (effective) 6th level slot combined with the Enhanced Shadow Reality feat from the FRCS, IIRC, to hit 100% quasireality. Irregardless, he still has to check SR because its based on Silent Image, but if he has the Gnomie Illusionist Racial Sub level from Races of Stone, he's heightening a 0th level Silent Image up to effectively 8th level which gives +8 CL boost thanks to Earth Spell. That means he's at CL19 barring any other shananiganery like Spell Pen, Third Eye Penetrate, or other CL boosts like Craft Magic Tattoo or an Orange IWIN Stone. If he has the Arcane Mastery feat from CArcane, he could take 10 to hit SR29 with no roll. If the Balor has Unholy Aura up, that requires 34, so barring Assay Spell Resistance or any other modifiers, he'd have to roll a 15+ to hit with any of his ScM Shadow Illusion spells.

This is a pretty close assessment. I have create magic tattoo and a ring of arcane might, for a base caster level of 13. My highest level shadow illusions get a +7 boost from earth spell, for a total of +20 to the check. If I can get assay SR off before it gets there, I can beat its SR automatically.


This is why most ScM don't ban Conjouration, despite being able to emulate about half of the spells on it. SR:No is one of the main selling points of the Conjouration school, and using Shadow Illusion usurps that. Also, the entire Teleport subschool can not be emulated with Shadow Illusion, which hurts a TON.

Yeah, this is why I kept it, but for the most part I don't prepare many spells from it (except some teleports) due to being able to mimic them all, and easily beat the SR of most anything we're fighting at this level.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 07:09 PM
Yea, I saw a guy play one at 15, and he mostly kept 1 Solid Fog, a couple Glitterdusts, and a couple Greases around primarily to deal with constructs. If you go overboard on the Shadow Illusions, constructs can really be a pain.

The fun thing to do with Shadow Illusion, however, is to get a pair of Spellguard Rings (CMage). They give you Spell Immunity to one person for a spell you cast, 3/day. Most of the time, Conjourations don't check SR, and thus Spell Immunity doesn't do anything. With a Shadow Illusioned Freezing Fog, you're swordsage ally can waltz in, shank the hell out of pool helpless prone immobilized foes, and tango out.

Also...why didn't you do the Gnome Racial Sub from Races of Stone? You literally lose nothing and it gives you a +1 CL with Earth Spell because it makes Silent Image a 0th level spell rather than a 1st level spell. Its a minor boost, but there is NO downside to it!

molten_dragon
2010-10-26, 07:54 PM
Also...why didn't you do the Gnome Racial Sub from Races of Stone? You literally lose nothing and it gives you a +1 CL with Earth Spell because it makes Silent Image a 0th level spell rather than a 1st level spell. Its a minor boost, but there is NO downside to it!

I'm pretty sure I did take it, why?

herrhauptmann
2010-10-26, 08:34 PM
If he's using an (effective) 8th level slot to emulate a 7th level spell.

I must be missing something, how is an 11th level character using 8th level slots to mimic 7th level spells?

Beholderslayer: Their silence spell comes from the whispergnome who has silence as a SLA. Potentially even silencing strike, so he doesn't need to spend an action doing one then the other.
Has anyone come up with a response to Unholy Aura? One of the things I like about Balors and a few other powerful monsters, they come with lists of standard tactics. Both of these for the Balor include using Unholy Aura before combat starts. So even if the balor falls for the nether trails, anyone who tries to attack him is likely to get strength drained to nothing.

Magikeeper
2010-10-26, 11:02 PM
Also, the entire Teleport subschool can not be emulated with Shadow Illusion, which hurts a TON.

Don’t forget about instant refuge. Evocation teleportation is a-ok and shadow IR ignores the xp and material components. Pile on the contingent teleports. Granted, it is a 9th level spell (so level 15 for many shadowcraft mages), but if you intend to go incantrix with a focused illusionist there aren’t many schools left to ban.

How does the SR work for shadow summons anyway?


Unholy Aura: They have a golem.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-26, 11:06 PM
Yes I know of the golem. They're also getting a lot of advice for the rogue to attack as well. The rogue would need some way around unholy aura, as well as any other summons.

WinWin
2010-10-27, 12:38 AM
Summon Undead 4 or 5 (Shadow cast). Allip have decent synergy with shadow magic, considering their attacks will lower will.

at a +3 touch, they are not going to hit very often, but even if they are recognised as Shadow Magic, the ability damage they deal will still take it's toll.

SU 5, for the numbers, then focus on getting the thing flat-footed. As incorporeals, they will have double the lifespan of other summons (due to miss chance).

edit: Shadow Resilliant Sphere. Target your character with it to become immune to damage. It will block any lines or emanations (both ways). Summons should still work provided they are outside your protective shadow-bubble.

Thurbane
2010-10-27, 01:16 AM
Probably not the same as a P&P game, but you fight a Balor in the ToEE CRPG, when you are a maximum level of 10. It tough...VERY tough, but doable.

The computer probably doesn't play the Balor to anywhere near it's potential, though...

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-27, 02:07 AM
This topic had me thinking, "Why doesn't a Balor just go around destroying the material plane at his will, taking out small villages that probably don't have anything close to a cleric leveled enough to banish it, (aside from perhaps a solar tracking it down and destroying it.) The real reason, in the text, is that the Balors are the generals of the abyss, which fight against the devils of the nine hells more than they do anything good aligned. That said, why would they have Blasphemy instead of Words of Chaos. I know, it's because if a PC fights them, the PC is more likely to be good aligned than lawful aligned, but that's kinda metagaming on the writer's part.

Keld Denar
2010-10-27, 04:01 AM
I must be missing something, how is an 11th level character using 8th level slots to mimic 7th level spells?

Almost everything you need is in Races of Stone. Go read Shadowcraft Mage, then read Earth Spell and Heighten Spell. If you still don't get it, google NIN's Shadowcraft Mage Handbook, its really informative.

Earth Spell basically heightens a spell by 1 extra level, if you highten it by 1. It also gives a boost to CL for each level you heighten it. ScM allows you to sub out X level Figment spells for X-1 level Evocations or Conjouration(Creation) or Conjouration(Summons). So, an 11th level character normally has 6th level spells. He heightens a 0th level Silent Image (using the Gnome Illusionist Racial Sub to get 0th level Silent Images) up to 6th level. Earth Spell makes it a 7th level spell. That means it can emulate any 6th level or lower spell. He also has a metamagic reducer, so he can heighten a spell up to 7th, and Earth Spell makes it 8th, which is effectively 7th for what it can mimic. In doing that, you also get a rediculous CL boost from lifting a spell from 0th to 8th level.

Its complicated, but nearly all of the tools for it come from one book, so its not like you are combining things from different books that nobody anticiapted.

vegetalss4
2010-10-27, 06:07 AM
Running away is an option, we do have teleport available to us. However, we all like a challenge. And the amount of XP we'd get from killing the balor is phenomenal.

So can we do it? And how should we go about it?




not to be a party Popper, but technically you won't get any xp at all since a balor is 8 or more cr over your level, so if you fight you will be fighting for fun, and whatever your dm chooses to grant you if you win.

Coidzor
2010-10-27, 06:20 AM
not to be a party Popper, but technically you won't get any xp at all since a balor is 8 or more cr over your level, so if you fight you will be fighting for fun, and whatever your dm chooses to grant you if you win.

Still should be over 11700 experience points (what a level 13 party would get), any DM who wouldn't give you experience for that oversight on the part of the designers isn't worth spit.

dsmiles
2010-10-27, 06:22 AM
Still should be over 11700 experience points (what a level 13 party would get), any DM who wouldn't give you experience for that oversight on the part of the designers isn't worth spit.

That's why I prefer the UA alternative with 'set' XP for each monster.

faceroll
2010-10-27, 06:30 AM
Almost everything you need is in Races of Stone. Go read Shadowcraft Mage, then read Earth Spell and Heighten Spell. If you still don't get it, google NIN's Shadowcraft Mage Handbook, its really informative.

Earth Spell basically heightens a spell by 1 extra level, if you highten it by 1. It also gives a boost to CL for each level you heighten it. ScM allows you to sub out X level Figment spells for X-1 level Evocations or Conjouration(Creation) or Conjouration(Summons). So, an 11th level character normally has 6th level spells. He heightens a 0th level Silent Image (using the Gnome Illusionist Racial Sub to get 0th level Silent Images) up to 6th level. Earth Spell makes it a 7th level spell. That means it can emulate any 6th level or lower spell. He also has a metamagic reducer, so he can heighten a spell up to 7th, and Earth Spell makes it 8th, which is effectively 7th for what it can mimic. In doing that, you also get a rediculous CL boost from lifting a spell from 0th to 8th level.

Its complicated, but nearly all of the tools for it come from one book, so its not like you are combining things from different books that nobody anticiapted.

It's definitely a cool use of illusions, but to get your shadow spells quasi-reality up, you need shadow adept from a forgotten realms book. You also can't use your primary ability while flying or in many dungeon environments, due to the requirements of earth spell. You can only circumvent them if your DM lets dirt in your shoes count as unworked stone, or you haul a boulder around on a greater tenser's disc or something. You also face problems using the ability on outer planes, though a collar of umbral metamorphosis (tome of magic) and planar bubble (spell compendium) solves that dilemma and adds another 20% quasireality to your spells.

Coidzor
2010-10-27, 07:07 AM
That's why I prefer the UA alternative with 'set' XP for each monster.

UA material that's not online in the SRD!? *le gasp*

Or am I just really bad at looking?

dsmiles
2010-10-27, 07:23 AM
UA material that's not online in the SRD!? *le gasp*

Or am I just really bad at looking?

Dunno. I don't use the SRD. I use hard copies of most books, and a few .pdf's of books I can't get anymore.

Cogidubnus
2010-10-27, 07:29 AM
Anyone have a way of casting Banishment? Even just a scroll? That could save you.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-27, 02:29 PM
I've been thinking about this for a while. I don't know who would be commanding a Balor, what with it being a general, but all you have to do is cast an illusion to make you appear as that being and order it to mount an assault on the 9 hells!:smallbiggrin:
Although it will probably turn out kamikaze, only don't tell it that.:smallwink:
Note: ask your DM if you'd get XP for it that way first, just to be safe.

Keld Denar
2010-10-27, 02:39 PM
The illusion would have to be more than 120' away from the offending Balor, due to thier permanent True Seeing. Once it gets within that range, it would instantly recognize the ruse.

Also, Balors have amazing Int scores...you'd have to get up pretty early in the morning to try something so blatently obvious and have it succeed against something smart enough to teach Advanced Interplanar Quantum Physics at Sigil U.

Fawsto
2010-10-27, 02:41 PM
Balor has true seeing.

Also, Swordsaged.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-27, 02:54 PM
Actually, you could create an image of a pit fiend on the opposite end of the area from you to get it to waste a turn getting within range of the fiend. Balor's care a lot more about their primordial enemy then about squishes. You could even have the image of the Pit Fiend placed over your golem as a still image, and then grapple the Balor when it attacks the golem.

Fawsto
2010-10-27, 03:04 PM
And then the Balor would be thinking: "Why in the abyss that Pit Fiend has not attacked me yet".

Or not. I dunno. Seriously, I don't think I can balance the embodiment of CE and a 24 int.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-27, 03:09 PM
And then the Balor would be thinking: "Why in the abyss that Pit Fiend has not attacked me yet".

Or not. I dunno. Seriously, I don't think I can balance the embodiment of CE and a 24 int.

I think of them as The Joker. Their crazy, but also play Xanatos Roulette. So their plans are fantastically in depth, but make no sense to anyone else; with the option of hundreds of years spent doing something really petty like planning the destruction of the planted day-care centers.

As for the Pit Fiend thing, Pit Fiends are weaker the Balors in a straight fight. Just have it look like its running.

KingMerv00
2010-10-27, 03:47 PM
Or not. I dunno. Seriously, I don't think I can balance the embodiment of CE and a 24 int.

Demons are generally about destruction rather than domination. A demon with a high INT is just really really clever in the way he goes about his destruction. That means they don't HAVE to wade into melee combat. They may be just as happy to send a wave of mooks in to accomplish the same ends.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-27, 03:58 PM
Oh, yeah. True seeing. Right. But what if you try to create an illusion some distance away of a devil or something, using a nether trail to lead it towards it, but lead the trail off into a pit or something?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-27, 04:05 PM
Oh, yeah. True seeing. Right. But what if you try to create an illusion some distance away of a devil or something, using a nether trail to lead it towards it, but lead the trail off into a pit or something?

Well, for one thing, Balors can fly.

KingMerv00
2010-10-27, 04:06 PM
To answer the question in the OP...

Run, level up, return.

Seriously. It is the embodiment of all things destruction and you have basically no chance if the DM runs it correctly. :smalleek:

Maryring
2010-10-27, 04:14 PM
The illusion would have to be more than 120' away from the offending Balor, due to thier permanent True Seeing. Once it gets within that range, it would instantly recognize the ruse.

Also, Balors have amazing Int scores...you'd have to get up pretty early in the morning to try something so blatently obvious and have it succeed against something smart enough to teach Advanced Interplanar Quantum Physics at Sigil U.

Thank you. I will now have to create a Balor that acts like a grumpy Uni Prof.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-27, 04:21 PM
I thought of something.
You know how when you kill an extraplanar while on the prime material plane, it just gets sent back to its home plane? As far as I know, the rule about 100 years before getting to leave is just fluff.

What if you manage to kill this demon, survive the deaththroes, and look into the portal as its body recomposes in the abyss? It stands up, looks at you through the portal, and starts walking forward.
Granted, that would be close to the ultimate of 'evil dm' (right up there with: "Since when is Gruumsh a random encounter?").

Ditto
2010-10-27, 04:24 PM
For fun and profit, you might review how an e6 party can defeat a balor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998). Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9078182&postcount=294) is the punchline, with all the summaries of what plans worked and the winners of the contest.

It's not necessarily useful for you now, with your already-existing characters and no-prep-time, but like I said... fun and profit. Someday.

WinWin
2010-10-28, 01:03 AM
Ability damage can drop the Balor without killing it. Unfortunately, grinding it's attributes down before it wastes the party is extremely challenging at the current party level.

Amiel
2010-10-28, 05:39 AM
It'll be unlikely for the balor to summon another balor; this will force the balor to quell the interloper through a show of extreme force and utter violence; balors cannot abide competition and they cannot resist the temptation of violence.
Summonings must benefit the balor only, as such the balor would summon dretches (unlikely), hezrous (most likely), nalfeshnee (unlikely), glaberzu (likely), marilith (likely).
These summoned subservients will cause the player characters to expend variable time, energy and resources fighting what amounts to be distractions.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-28, 02:25 PM
Perhaps if you can destroy the ceiling above the portal just as it comes out, causing a collapse. then, if that doesn't kill it (which will be evident by the big explosion shortly afterwards), get the heck outta there. I can't think of any good strategies that don't involve direct conflict, which would most likely kill at least one of you. Remember Gandalf? If he had access to teleport, things would have gone better, and he had four experienced combatants with him, and he was even bearing an elven-ring! (and all he had to do was remove its wings, then knock it over the edge of the bridge or something.) I don't think you can handle it anymore.

Battleship789
2010-10-28, 04:57 PM
You have to also remember that even if you get a Silence up and stay in it, the Balor can just quickened TK two (or so, depends on the weight of the characters) of you out of the Silence (up to 200 feet of movement, i.e. right next to the Balor) and then use Blasphemy as its normal action to paralyze them (if more than one came out) or use PWS/Dominate Monster if one of the characters made their save and didn't go out of the Silence. And if the Balor grabs the Silence's caster, it can Full Attack and probably 1 turn-kill them. Technically, it can even throw the characters against each other, for more fun.

tl:dr Teleport away, live to fight another day.

Myth
2010-10-28, 05:04 PM
By now the situation should have played out? We're waiting for updates OP.

Nick_mi
2010-10-28, 07:09 PM
Probably not the same as a P&P game, but you fight a Balor in the ToEE CRPG, when you are a maximum level of 10. It tough...VERY tough, but doable.

The computer probably doesn't play the Balor to anywhere near it's potential, though...

What is this computer you speak of?

molten_dragon
2010-10-28, 07:35 PM
By now the situation should have played out? We're waiting for updates OP.

No, sorry, we only play once a week. And sometimes we play a different campaign. There won't be an update until sunday at the earliest. I'll keep you updated though.

Gortog, SRU
2010-10-29, 02:04 PM
What is this computer you speak of?

CRPG is a Computerized RPG.

Nick_mi
2010-11-02, 11:32 AM
CRPG is a Computerized RPG.

Where would I find this?

Silus
2010-11-02, 11:38 AM
I thought of something.
You know how when you kill an extraplanar while on the prime material plane, it just gets sent back to its home plane? As far as I know, the rule about 100 years before getting to leave is just fluff.

What if you manage to kill this demon, survive the deaththroes, and look into the portal as its body recomposes in the abyss? It stands up, looks at you through the portal, and starts walking forward.
Granted, that would be close to the ultimate of 'evil dm' (right up there with: "Since when is Gruumsh a random encounter?").

Sounds like something my DM would do :smallannoyed:
He's the kind that would expect us to close the gate beforehand, THEN kill the demon, and would punish us (in the way you described) if we didn't do it "his way".

super dark33
2010-11-02, 01:04 PM
Sounds like something my DM would do :smallannoyed:
He's the kind that would expect us to close the gate beforehand, THEN kill the demon, and would punish us (in the way you described) if we didn't do it "his way".

by hearing stuff like this i feel that my DM is a great one 0.0

Maryring
2010-11-03, 06:58 AM
So how did it go?

Silus
2010-11-03, 07:25 AM
by hearing stuff like this i feel that my DM is a great one 0.0

Well, he's a pretty inflexible DM and doesn't usually give us an escape route unless we do something either specific or exceptional (Like when my Ork/Owlbear created an explosion big enough to throw himself into the timestream). Usually one of those "Running won't save you" or "Nowhere to run to" situations.

Gortog, SRU
2010-11-04, 02:41 PM
Where would I find this?

This is the wiki page for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_(video_game)
It appears as though you must buy it in stores... I don't really know, I didn't bring it up. Looks awesome, though. We wants it, my precious; yes, we wants it for ourselves, yes, gollum.

Thurbane
2010-11-04, 04:55 PM
The ToEE computer game is a little buggy, but it's my all time fave CRPG, and one of the video games I have racked up the most hours on. It has decent replay value (you level the characters from 1 through 10), taking different parties through. I highly recommend it. :smallsmile:

There's also some great user-made mods for it, including an adaptation of the classic Keep on the Borderlands module.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 04:58 PM
So how did it go?

I am also curious as to how things went for the OP.

Gortog, SRU
2010-11-10, 03:14 PM
If you can have your golem tunnel into the Balor's path and surprise it and keep it distracted, then use some spells to collapse the ceiling above it, then maybe even open up a pit beneath the balor, it would be entirely possible to trap it or maybe knock it out, without killing it. Oh, and if you want, you can have someone who's good with swords or melee attacks keep the rocks from falling on your heads (by breaking/deflecting them) or use some magic shield and get in closer. Will this work?

Slipperychicken
2010-11-10, 04:29 PM
I just read the description on Dust of Sneezing and Coughing (DMG 276), and the MM entry on Balor, so forgive me if I miss something here.

It seems like you could use the methods described earlier to dodge this guy's SLA's, then get the construct or something to chuck the Dust at it to buy yourselves ~10 rounds (no save, he gets no actions and drops his sword) to GTFO, wear him down, or take pride in the fact that you just incapacitated an abyss commander with a 2,000gp item.

But you guys certainly don't have this stuff, and even if you did, there's no way your GM wants/expects you to kill a Balor. Killing it will either a) derail the plot b) get you a s**t-ton of xp or c) make your DM very, very angry/impressed.

my $0.02