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SilverLeaf167
2010-10-26, 09:09 AM
Can a Monk use both his Unarmed Strikes and natural weapons when making a full attack?

For example, a Half-Dragon Monk uses Flurry of Blows. This allows him to make two unarmed strikes on a full attack. Can he then use all his other natural attacks (two claws and a bite)?
I think it works that way, and actually makes sense (unarmed strikes can be kicks) but how is it, actually?

Ernir
2010-10-26, 09:11 AM
The Half-Dragon Monk could do its Unarmed Strike routine, and then use all of its natural attacks as secondary natural attacks, taking the -5 penalty for using them that way.

odder
2010-10-26, 09:12 AM
Flurry of blows is a full attack. So I guess no...no extra natural attacks..when using flurry of blows

Myth
2010-10-26, 09:42 AM
Flurry of blows is a full attack. So I guess no...no extra natural attacks..when using flurry of blows

No you are wrong.

I swear, this question has popped up 5 times in the past 7 days.

Here is the official info from the 3.5 FAQ taken from the Wizards site:

Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger, and I’m allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of those attacks can be dagger attacks? What if I have two daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times from one living foe? If natural weaponry doesn’t work with a flurry, why not?

You can’t use a dagger with a flurry of blows at all. When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are included in the PH (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.

If you have one (or two) special monk weapons, you can freely substitute attacks with those weapons with unarmed attacks in the flurry (see the flurry of blows description on page 46 of the PH). If you’re allowed three attacks in a flurry, and you have a +1 alchemical silver sai (or other special monk weapon), you could use the sai up to three times in the flurry. The examples given in the flurry of blows entry don’t make that completely clear because they don’t cover all the combinations of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes that are possible.

If you have two special monk weapons to use, you can use either or both of them in the flurry. For example, if you’re entitled to three attacks using flurry of blows, and you’re armed with a +1 alchemical silver sai and a cold iron sai, you can make three attacks with one sai and no attacks with the other, two attacks with one sai and one attack with the other, one attack with each sai and one unarmed attack, or any other combination of three attacks. Note that having a sai in each hand won’t prevent a monk from making unarmed attacks. A monk with her hands full can still make her full complement of unarmed strikes (see the unarmed strike entry on page 41 of the PH).

It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry, and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks from your base attack bonus. Please note that a vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and cannot drain energy.

The description of the flurry of blows ability says there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean, exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to flurry attacks?

Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack, even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra attacks, or both.

The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the PH) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits.

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry, the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2 flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks, each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage (+1).

If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry (in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available for the flurry and vice versa.



Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.

For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8 penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand).

If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks, each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to be with her off-hand weapon.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows. Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.


A hit, a very palpable hit!

No, as per the FAQ:

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks.

An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry).



If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as the standard two claws and a bite array) takes levels of monk, how do flurry of blows and its natural attack progression interact?

You can’t use a natural weapon (claw, bite, or whatever) as part of a flurry of blows—only unarmed strikes and special monk weapons can be used in a flurry of blows.

If a creature can use one of its natural weapons as a secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapon attacks, it can do the same with that natural weapon in conjunction with a flurry of blows. Any penalty assessed on attacks by the flurry of blows would also apply to the natural weapon attack.

For example, a typical lizardfolk can attack with a club and its bite as part of a full attack. Normally, a creature would take a –5 penalty on an attack roll made with a secondary weapon, but since the lizardfolk has Multiattack, the penalty on the attack roll is reduced to –2 and adds only half the lizardfolk’s Strength bonus on the damage roll.

If it were a 1st-level monk, it could make a flurry of blows (using unarmed strikes, not claw attacks), then add a bite attack as a secondary attack. Each unarmed strike would have a –2 penalty (from flurry of blows), and the bite attack would have a –4 penalty (–2 from flurry of blows and –2 from being a secondary weapon, reduced from –5 by Multiattack).

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-26, 09:43 AM
Flurry of blows is a full attack. So I guess no...no extra natural attacks..when using flurry of blows

No, it's not. It's Two-Weapon Fighting for Monks.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 09:53 AM
I swear, this question has popped up 5 times in the past 7 days.

Hmm, maybe Monkday is just around the corner, then?

but, yeah, as long as you can deliver Unarmed strikes without using the hands/mouth, you should be fine. Combining headbutt unarmed strikes and bites might be problematic, but, eh, that's what knees, feet, and elbows are for.

odder
2010-10-26, 09:58 AM
heh thanks for correcting me.. you learn something new everyday :smallsmile:
I never really use monsters with natural attacks with monk levels I think most monster monks is kind of silly :smalltongue:

SilverLeaf167
2010-10-26, 09:59 AM
Okey-dokey, thank you people.

Coidzor
2010-10-26, 10:00 AM
I never really use monsters with natural attacks with monk levels I think most monster monks is kind of silly :smalltongue:

Try a horse or wolf that has IUS. Or a Kung Fu Panda. Now those get silly.

Keld Denar
2010-10-26, 10:11 AM
I think there is a feat or class feature to fix this, but note that natural attacks (like claws or bites) are NOT special monk weapons. Thus, you CAN use them in conjunction with UAS attacks, but you CAN NOT use them in conjunction with a Flurry of Blows. Unarmed Strikes are pseudo-natural attacks that are explicitly allowed for FoB, but other natural attacks are not.

So a level 1 Kobold Monk (with the web enhancement) could have:

UAS-2/UAS-2

OR

UAS+0/Claw-5/Claw-5/Bite-5

But couldn't have

UAS-2/UAS-2/Claw-7/Claw-7/Bite-7

using Flurry. If he got the second unarmed strike from BAB, Snap Kick, or some other NON-Flurry feature, it would be fine, but Flurry of Blows explicitly requires that you only use special monk weapons as part of the attack.

lsfreak
2010-10-26, 10:13 AM
No, it's not. It's Two-Weapon Fighting for Monks.

It's not even that, is it? You can flurry and TWF at the same time with actual weapons, and with unarmed strikes is... constantly debated.

Myth
2010-10-26, 10:20 AM
So it turns out a monk is better TWFing with his UA + using his natural weapons then using a flurry.

Eloel
2010-10-26, 10:28 AM
Try a horse or wolf that has IUS. Or a Kung Fu Panda. Now those get silly.

Kung Fu Fleshraker...