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WarKitty
2010-10-26, 03:01 PM
Many of us tend to play (or at least start out with) low-level games. Now, I've found problems here. I like to play casters; however the things are pretty useless at low levels. You don't have any hit points, you can't wear armor, and you're lucky if you have enough dex to hit anything, plus the ranged weapons you can use are really crappy.

How do you make your >l5 casters contribute to the party if you have multiple encounters per day?

Tengu_temp
2010-10-26, 03:07 PM
Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Hypnotism, Summon Monster I (once it lasts more than 1 round)... Those are supposed to be useless? You only need to cast one spell per encounter to really make a difference, the rest of the time you can just stay back in safety and fire your crossbow. Casters are good from level 1 and only get better later.

bloodtide
2010-10-26, 03:07 PM
The easy answer is that low level spellcasters do not contribute to the encounter in the form of death, damage and destruction.

As spellcasters have high Intelligence, you should know the most about monsters and magical effects. Intelligence about monsters can be very helpful.

You also do the same with magical effects, and anything else you spend skill points on.


If you feel you 'need' to fight, there is a trick. The low level caster just goes for easy targets. The orc that just got tripped by the ranger, for example. Or the goblin that is 'mostly dead' next to the fighter.

Crow
2010-10-26, 03:07 PM
I use out-of-combat utility and such, and in combat, spells that buff the party/debuff the enemy, or allow continued usage (eg Chill Touch).

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-26, 03:08 PM
Low level casters are relevant. In games starting from level 1 right alongside "toploaded" options like Crusaders, casters have proven to be invaluable to the team.



How do you make your >l5 casters contribute to the party if you have multiple encounters per day?

The specifics depend on the caster type in question. There are so many options I don't know where to start...

WinWin
2010-10-26, 03:08 PM
Silent Image. Use your imagination.

edit: Item creation can help. Familliars can be useful for scouting. The fact you don't require MW arms and armour means you have more resources to dedicate to unusual purchases.

Alchemical items are a decent choice. Crafting them requires caster levels in any event. they are usually touch attacks, so that helps with hitting the majority of low level challenges. Even something like a tanglefoot bag is helpful. Alchemical Fire is a 2 round 'light' spell and a weapon rolled into one. Even something like chalk and a bag of marbles have their uses in the hands of an intelligent character.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-26, 03:11 PM
Why are you making attack rolls? Why are you in a position to be hit? At low levels, casters should a) hide behind the beefier members of the party, and be fully willing to run screaming if something gets past them, b) use the totally awesome save-or-screwed spells available at low level, like Sleep and Glitterdust, and c) buff themselves and the party to the extent that they can (Divine Favor, Blessing, Protection from Arrows, etc. at the lowest levels, much more effective spells like Haste and Mirror Image a little later).

Even at such low levels, running out of spells is avoidable. 1st-and 2nd-level Pearls of Power are cheap, your mental stats should be high enough for a fair number of bonus spells, and you can take a reserve feat if necessary. And if you're using spells that effectively shut down most of an encounter (Sleep, Glitterdust), you shouldn't need more than one offensive spell and perhaps a buff per encounter.

gbprime
2010-10-26, 03:12 PM
Many of us tend to play (or at least start out with) low-level games. Now, I've found problems here. I like to play casters; however the things are pretty useless at low levels. You don't have any hit points, you can't wear armor, and you're lucky if you have enough dex to hit anything, plus the ranged weapons you can use are really crappy.

How do you make your >l5 casters contribute to the party if you have multiple encounters per day?

Reserve feats are one option. You can get a reserve feat that lets you throw 2d6 energy damage at level 3 (or earlier) and you can retrain it at later levels.

Equipment is a second option for a caster that has access to Craft Wondrous Item (either having the feat or hiring someone who does). An item that allows repeated use of a 1st level spell extends your battery life.

A DM can also drop something like this in a caster's lap to balance things. I once handed out a Scepter that you could charge up by expending a 1st level spell, and then for the next minute could use a standard action to throw Magic Missile from the scepter at your caster level.

jiriku
2010-10-26, 03:12 PM
Battlefield control and mass SoL will do it for a sorcerer/wizard. At low levels, sleep, color spray, grease, glitterdust, and web will do horrible things to most enemies. One spell is enough to have a dramatic impact on a fight, then you can spend the rest of the encounter looking puny with your crossbow or dealing minor damage with a reserve feat.

For a martial cleric or favored soul, just pretend you're a fighter and you'll do OK. For a more casty cleric, you're pretty much stuck healbotting until level 5.

Druids mix BC with entangle and soften earth and stone with fighting via animal companion.

Dread necromancer is ok as a front-line combatant. Beguiler is one-shotting enemies with charms, I guess. Warmage isn't extremely relevant until he gets more spell slots. Healer is never extremely relevant. I'm not so familiar with shaman, shugenja, and wu jen so I don't know about those.

EDIT: OMG ninja'd seven times. Where did they all come from?

Thefurmonger
2010-10-26, 03:21 PM
I have to agree with all the rest, I have found caster to be just fine from LVL1 on up.

Sorcer/Wiz- Greese, Color spray, Sleep = Win

Druid- Entangle, Seriously I don't need a list for this one. (Tho Blockade is just stupid good too)

Beguiller- See Sorc/Wiz and they have skills too.

Cleric- If you need a list then you just arn't trying.

Magesmiley
2010-10-26, 03:25 PM
My comments here are mostly directed at the 3.x version of the game.

1. Use your spells selectively and wisely. Don't blow the entire wad the first time you encounter a kobold (and yes, I've seen players do this). Properly managing your resources is the single most important thing you can do. Knowing when not to use a spell is as important as properly casting one.
2. Don't focus on direct damage spells initially. Go for ones that can shift battles. Get a crossbow for direct damage. When you've got a 1d4+1 magic missile or a 1d4 burning hands, they're not terribly helpful. Sleep, charm person, and ray of enfeeblement are usually much better choices for your 1st level. This starts shifting at around 3rd level or so IMO.
3. Ask the DM if you can put some of your starting money into a 1st-level wand with a few charges left. At 15 gp per charge, you might be afford a few shots.
4. Alchemical items anyone?
5. Accept that your AC is going to be terrible - if you want it all, go play a cleric. Consider Mage Armor eventually. If you're in a world of hurt, consider fighting defensively or total defense.
6. Once you've got a little bit of money under your belt, definitely pursue a useful wand.
7. If you're a wizard (or someone else with Scribe Scroll), make scrolls for the seldom used spells that you'll want now and then. Make a few of the common ones for emergencies too. At 12.5 gp per 1st level spell, its very hard not to justify making them.
8. Watch for opportunities to use the Aid Another action. People often forget that this one is there, but often it can be better to do this than to resort to a physical attack yourself.

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 03:36 PM
See, I didn't say they were completely useless. But we have a DM that throws 6 encounters per day at us. Which leaves you either sitting on your hands until it looks like you really need the spells, or being out of spells real fast. Both of which are frankly kind of boring.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-26, 03:41 PM
Reserve feats are your friends.

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 03:42 PM
Reserve feats are your friends.

Don't they all require like 4th level spell slots?

Kylarra
2010-10-26, 03:44 PM
Fiery burst only requires 2nd.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-26, 03:44 PM
Don't they all require like 4th level spell slots?

Hardly. One of the best, fiery burst, only requires a 2nd level fire spell, for instance. See also, precocious apprentice.

They range from 2 to 5, IIRC. Good amounts of variety at 2 and 3.

Shpadoinkle
2010-10-26, 03:46 PM
See, I didn't say they were completely useless. But we have a DM that throws 6 encounters per day at us. Which leaves you either sitting on your hands until it looks like you really need the spells, or being out of spells real fast. Both of which are frankly kind of boring.

That's kind of what Scribe Scroll is for. And as a bonus, wizards get it free at level 1.

gbprime
2010-10-26, 03:53 PM
Hardly. One of the best, fiery burst, only requires a 2nd level fire spell, for instance. See also, precocious apprentice.

Ding. Winner. Human wizard at level 1 (or other wizard with a flaw) can take Precocious Apprentice (Scorching Ray) and Fiery Burst. Can then throw 2d6 Fire AoE's as often as (s)he likes. You can retrain the precocious apprentice feat later in life, and the Fiery Burst upgrades as you gain spell levels, or you could retrain that to Searing Spell when running out of spell slots isn't so much of a concern anymore.

Tengu_temp
2010-10-26, 04:00 PM
See, I didn't say they were completely useless. But we have a DM that throws 6 encounters per day at us.

Ouch, that's pretty excessive - the default is 4 encounters per day. How are other people holding up? I'd imagine that at this rate their HPs tend to run low and they have to use a lot of resources for healing.

I suggest making scrolls.

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 04:04 PM
We have a dedicated healbot cleric plus a few wands and such that the DM drops as loot. But we have lost a barbarian to straight HP damage already when he got poisoned so we couldn't heal him by magic.

I'm a PF druid btw. Yeah, I know I have a companion, not the same. No, PF wild shape does nothing for my attack capabilities.

lsfreak
2010-10-26, 04:04 PM
Hardly. One of the best, fiery burst, only requires a 2nd level fire spell, for instance. See also, precocious apprentice.

And Versatile Spellcaster for some spontaneous spellcasters, which are excellent feats. Sorcerers don't benefit unless flaws are allowed, and then you can grab Heighten Metamagic (or a different +1) to qualify.

A first level sorcerer gets a mere 4 1st-level spells a day (one for high Charisma, or possibly but unlikely 2), but Versatile Spellcaster bumps that up to 6 (turn two 0-level spells into a 1st-level). Wizards have specialization and focused specialization, which take your normal 2 spells/day and turns them into 3 or 4 a day, respectively.

The best way is Precocious Apprentice or Versatile Spellcaster with a Reserve feat, though.

gbprime
2010-10-26, 04:08 PM
An elf generalist wizard (RotW) with a wizard Domain (UA) ends up with +2 spells per day at 1st level, no feats required. Also happy. (And proficiency with a bow and a 14 or better Dex is a fine backup plan at levels 1 and 2.)

Tvtyrant
2010-10-26, 04:10 PM
I run 6 a day as a DM when I can, so from the other side of things I can say that you should be saving up for either:
1. 1 big monster. Aberrations, Dragons, etc. A Grick at level 1 is as much threat as 6 kobolds.
2. A lot of little ones at once. Say 10 kobolds or goblins at once. Then you glitterdust them. 1 spell slot for a lot of blind enemies, your guys mop up.

If its an even fight don't get involved unless it turns ugly. Your companions can do just fine on their own.

Also, whats your stats?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-26, 04:14 PM
There's also the entirely mundane option of a heavy crossbow loaded with tumbling bolts. 1d10+2 damage without any investment besides minor amounts of gold you'll never miss at high levels. Sure, reloading is terrible, but it gives you one round of contribution per fight without running into that issue, at least.

And you should always carry a sling. No weight + free = even the most broke 1st level char can pack one.

Ilmryn
2010-10-26, 04:15 PM
Never forget that at 1st level, the wizard with a crossbow can be pretty dangerous.
Consider the following:
-at level 1 BAB matters very little
-Casters usually have a dex in the 14-16 range
-1d8 is fairly decent damage at low levels, enough to take out mooks in one or two shots
A wizard armed with a crossbow probably has the same to-hit bonus as the party rogue, and does about the same damage.
This is why a low-level caster should ditch the staff and get a crossbow.

And, of course, this post is the first time I get ninja'd(or swordsaged, for that matter).

Valameer
2010-10-26, 04:18 PM
But... but... I thought casters were superior to warriors right from level 1?

How can this be, Mr. Bigglesworth? *puts pinky to lip*
:smallamused:

---
Ok, ok. Are you rich enough for a 1st level wand? They give you plenty of stuff to do. Enlarge person is a good one, magic missile is better than a crossbow, but don't worry about damage too much. Grease or protection from evil will help the big tough guys do their jobs better.

Level 1 scrolls are very cheap, and spells that caster level doesn't matter as much are good to scribe. Grease, enlarge person, disguise self, obscuring mist, protection from evil

If you are an elf, you can almost help with a bow. Almost.

I'd gravitate towards ways to buff the tougher members of the party when you are out of spells. They'll appreciate it and see you through. As it is, you'll waste your spells trying to win encounters on your own. Although at low levels having a spare color spray up your sleeve never hurts.

A wand of bull's strength is also great for always feeling useful. It's fairly pricey though.

EDIT: D'oh, just read you are a druid. Hm. Well, scrolls and wands with buffs are still the way to go. This time you have barkskin, goodberry, bull's strength. Cast entangle to lock down some melee enemies, but then dispel it when your front liners are ready to go in. Goodberry lasts a few days, so try to make a bunch on encounterless days (I know, it's a gamble to assume a day will be encounterless...)

Delay poison scrolls can come in handy occasionally. So can resist energy and lesser restoration.

Don't be afraid to use your animal companion, either. A horse companion saves money, wolves and dire badgers can hold the line.

And sometimes, you have to know when to conserve your strength. You'll eventually come into your own when the game gets to a higher level. For now, if the battle is already won, save your spells. Don't feel guilty about it, either.

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 04:19 PM
If its an even fight don't get involved unless it turns ugly. Your companions can do just fine on their own.

See that's my complaint. For the majority of fights I am entirely superfluous. Which equals really really bored. The only ranged weapon I can use is the sling, which can do a maximum of 2 points of damage (-1 strength plus small size).

Tvtyrant
2010-10-26, 04:27 PM
See that's my complaint. For the majority of fights I am entirely superfluous. Which equals really really bored. The only ranged weapon I can use is the sling, which can do a maximum of 2 points of damage (-1 strength plus small size).

Magic is a tradeoff. Your spells are much, much more powerful then an attack, but you get a limited #. The only thing I can off would be that you could buy a couple low level pearls, they only cost 1,000 gold each.

Are you allowed to reroll? Because if you want to play as a caster that attacks every turn and makes a difference in every fight you could reroll as a Warlock. You give up higher level spell slots, but at low levels that doesn't matter.

subject42
2010-10-26, 04:32 PM
See that's my complaint. For the majority of fights I am entirely superfluous. Which equals really really bored. The only ranged weapon I can use is the sling, which can do a maximum of 2 points of damage (-1 strength plus small size).

If you're a druid, you should have at least a +4 modifier to handle animal at level 1, and it should be more like +5 to +12. That means that you should be able to train a few of them.

In pathfinder Weasels cost 2gp. Weasels have a +4 to hit and an attach ability. You should be able to weaselBomb your way through pretty much any encounter at low levels.

Aron Times
2010-10-26, 04:38 PM
See that's my complaint. For the majority of fights I am entirely superfluous. Which equals really really bored. The only ranged weapon I can use is the sling, which can do a maximum of 2 points of damage (-1 strength plus small size).
4e solves this problem, but since you're playing Pathfinder, you probably won't switch.

You can look at things this way: You only need to cast one spell to win the battle, and then you can sit down and wait for your minions to finish off the disabled bad guys. Your magic is just that powerful.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-26, 04:58 PM
I'm a PF druid btw. Yeah, I know I have a companion, not the same. No, PF wild shape does nothing for my attack capabilities.

I'm afraid I can't help you there... I don't play PF, so I don't know what the rules are.

WhiteShark
2010-10-26, 05:24 PM
PF rules are very similar to 3.5, you can look at them at d20pfsrd.com

To the op, what level are you precisely and what is your wisdom score? It might be a little rough at level 1, but you've still probably got 2 first level spells (such as entangle and entangle) and an animal companion. It just gets better from there.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-26, 05:25 PM
PF rules are very similar to 3.5, you can look at them at d20pfsrd.com I could, but last time I looked at the latest PF iteration of the rules, my eyes bled. I saw Dodge get severely nerfed (why!?), and it didn't get better from there.

I am willing to accept the possibility that maybe it got better since the beta, but it's just hard for me to actually want to read it since I never actually hear of a new rule out of Pathfinder that I'd really want to add to my games.

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 05:35 PM
PF rules are very similar to 3.5, you can look at them at d20pfsrd.com

To the op, what level are you precisely and what is your wisdom score? It might be a little rough at level 1, but you've still probably got 2 first level spells (such as entangle and entangle) and an animal companion. It just gets better from there.

Wisdom is actually a 27. Yes I know I have a fair few spells; to be fair it is getting better but I'm still running low pretty fast. I haven't been able to use any of the one-shot lockdown spells; my party complained so much about entangle getting in their way that I quit using it. And SC material is banned.

WhiteShark
2010-10-26, 05:36 PM
Yeah, there are some things I like and don't like in Pathfinder. It didn't really fix anything balance wise, so it's more like a variation on 3.5. I do like that they got rid of the xp cost for crafting, which makes it infinitely more appealing than it was before. There are other things I like too, of course, but that's one that came to mind.

EDIT: Your party complained about entangle? Do they not, you know, have ranged weapons or something? Seems like they could just pick off entangled opponents.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-26, 05:44 PM
Yeah, there are some things I like and don't like in Pathfinder. It didn't really fix anything balance wise, so it's more like a variation on 3.5. I do like that they got rid of the xp cost for crafting, which makes it infinitely more appealing than it was before. There are other things I like too, of course, but that's one that came to mind.

Yeah, I got the feeling they just changed things around rather randomly just so that they'd have an excuse to reprint it as their own brand.

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 05:49 PM
Yeah, there are some things I like and don't like in Pathfinder. It didn't really fix anything balance wise, so it's more like a variation on 3.5. I do like that they got rid of the xp cost for crafting, which makes it infinitely more appealing than it was before. There are other things I like too, of course, but that's one that came to mind.

EDIT: Your party complained about entangle? Do they not, you know, have ranged weapons or something? Seems like they could just pick off entangled opponents.

Well at least one member doesn't have them. The rest of the party doesn't like using them because they don't do near as much damage as their magic weapons.

faceroll
2010-10-26, 05:51 PM
Sleep,
Requires a full round action, but super awesome against things that are affected by enchantments. Skeletons and giant vermin it's useless. I tend to face a lot of those at low levels (all levels, really).


Color Spray
Same target restrictions as Sleep, but trickier to target. Requires you to be close, and if it fails, you're likely to end up in the negatives next turn.


Grease
Has a very short duration for levels 1-3. Great with a TWF rogue around or any melee with power attack. -4 to AC is brutal. It's awesome with a party that works together, but it really only shines after level 1.


Hypnotism
Same limitations as Sleep, not so great in combat.


Summon Monster I (once it lasts more than 1 round)...
Summoned monster I is no good in a half-way optimized party. It's a full round to summon, too. Badgers can be used to some pretty interesting effects with loose soil and obstacles, and small enough party members.


Those are supposed to be useless? You only need to cast one spell per encounter to really make a difference, the rest of the time you can just stay back in safety and fire your crossbow. Casters are good from level 1 and only get better later.
Pretty boring, though. And more than half your suggestions are huge fails against very popular monster types.

I recommend glitterdust. It's so frikkin' awesome. It works on just about everything, and is totally debilitating. Enemies can't flee, can't coordinate, the rogue gets SA dice. It's so sweet. Also, it functions against hiding and invisible creatures. Web is also really, really good.


Wisdom is actually a 27. Yes I know I have a fair few spells; to be fair it is getting better but I'm still running low pretty fast. I haven't been able to use any of the one-shot lockdown spells; my party complained so much about entangle getting in their way that I quit using it. And SC material is banned.

You're a druid. You don't get really sweet offensive spells until later. Use produce flame if you went dex over str, or shillelagh if you went str over dex. Magic stones for everyone, then entangle and lay some hurt down on the monsters before they close. You can also use entangle to break up a group of foes if your allies are too dumb to avoid it. Use buff spells on yourself and your animal companion. If you've got a bull-strengthed wolf with bark skin & barding on, it's almost like having a pet fighter. You can also share those spells with yourself, throw a shillelagh on your club, and go to town on whatever your pet knocks down.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-26, 05:53 PM
Yeah, I agree that the druid starts off with a less than fantastic spell list. It's not actually *bad*, just not terribly interesting.

So, use what spells you have, use yer animal companion, use mundane ranged weaponry. At level 5, you'll be tearing faces off.

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 05:56 PM
You're a druid. You don't get really sweet offensive spells until later. Use produce flame if you went dex over str, or shillelagh if you went str over dex. Magic stones for everyone, then entangle and lay some hurt down on the monsters before they close. You can also use entangle to break up a group of foes if your allies are too dumb to avoid it. Use buff spells on yourself and your animal companion. If you've got a bull-strengthed wolf with bark skin & barding on, it's almost like having a pet fighter. You can also share those spells with yourself, throw a shillelagh on your club, and go to town on whatever your pet knocks down.

Yeah...strength 9 dex 10. 15 hit points at level 4. Buff spells are a nice idea but never seem to have a long enough duration. And yes handle animal checks are enforced in our game.

For those not familiar, PF wild shape no longer replaces your physical stats.

faceroll
2010-10-26, 06:08 PM
Yeah...strength 9 dex 10. 15 hit points at level 4. Buff spells are a nice idea but never seem to have a long enough duration. And yes handle animal checks are enforced in our game.

For those not familiar, PF wild shape no longer replaces your physical stats.

Did they change handle animal rules for your companion? You should have at least +9, which means you'll rarely fail your check, unless the DM is arbitrarily increasing the DC for you to use trick: attack. Or the PF rules are different.

At your level, bull str, barkskin, and etc, all last 40 rounds. Magic Fang helps a lot. It lasts 300 rounds. Produce Flame is pretty decent, though your dex is dumped hard. Summon Swarm can be useful, especially against lots of low level stuff like goblins. Bats have a bleed effect, which is very effective at low levels. If you could use a spell like Decomposition (SpC or the 3.0 splatbook for nature lovers), that means 2 damage/round to anything bit by bats.

What books you got access to?

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 06:20 PM
Did they change handle animal rules for your companion? You should have at least +9, which means you'll rarely fail your check, unless the DM is arbitrarily increasing the DC for you to use trick: attack. Or the PF rules are different.

At your level, bull str, barkskin, and etc, all last 40 rounds. Magic Fang helps a lot. It lasts 300 rounds. Produce Flame is pretty decent, though your dex is dumped hard. Summon Swarm can be useful, especially against lots of low level stuff like goblins. Bats have a bleed effect, which is very effective at low levels. If you could use a spell like Decomposition (SpC or the 3.0 splatbook for nature lovers), that means 2 damage/round to anything bit by bats.

What books you got access to?

Access to anything except SC. Usual format is something like fight-hour travel-fight-hour travel-fight...hence my reluctance to use buffs.

I really didn't roll good scores, so I had to dump everything except wisdom and intelligence. Handle animal is a +11 due to low charisma, plus tricks like "attack" are limited in use to "move in a straight line towards the opponent and bite."

bloodtide
2010-10-26, 06:27 PM
As a PF Druid, you get unlimited 0 level spells right? So you can cast them all day long. So you can Flare an opponent in every fight, give Guidance in every fight, Spark fires in every fight and by Virtue give temp hps.

And what domain did you take, Animal? All the other PF nature domains give you an attack power usable several times a day.

I don't get PF's Wildshape, so if you change into a wolf you don'tget a bite and trip attack? Or any of the animal's attack forms? So you can be a snake but not constrict , right?

And you can 'only' wear medium armor and 'only' use a scimitar? The poor wizard has much less then that...

Does PF still have flanking? Then you animal companion can do this for you and give you a plus to hit.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-26, 06:33 PM
Many of us tend to play (or at least start out with) low-level games. Now, I've found problems here. I like to play casters; however the things are pretty useless at low levels. You don't have any hit points, you can't wear armor, and you're lucky if you have enough dex to hit anything, plus the ranged weapons you can use are really crappy.

How do you make your >l5 casters contribute to the party if you have multiple encounters per day?

That's pretty deliberate. Casters are supposed to suck at low levels and bloom in levels to come.
Casters have enough BS they can do, last thing they need is a power boost to effectively eliminate your only weakness.

Edit: If you really need something to do, pick up a sling and sling away.

Aron Times
2010-10-26, 06:51 PM
I'd like to dispel the notion that noncasters don't run out of steam when they face multiple encounters. Fighters have no way to heal themselves, and because they fight at the frontlines, they run out of steam (HP) much quicker than the wizard who casts Sleep once per encounter.

Besides, the difference in combat ability between a low-level wizard and a low-level fighter is quite small. At this point in the game, combat is much more luck-based, with most of the attack roll result coming from the d20.

Aran Banks
2010-10-26, 06:56 PM
If you're a druid, you should have at least a +4 modifier to handle animal at level 1, and it should be more like +5 to +12. That means that you should be able to train a few of them.

In pathfinder Weasels cost 2gp. Weasels have a +4 to hit and an attach ability. You should be able to weaselBomb your way through pretty much any encounter at low levels.

OH. MY. GOD.

This man is a genius.

Eldariel
2010-10-26, 07:08 PM
Yeah, Druid really gets quite a bit out of Handle Animal they'll have to get anyways. It's a Move Action to direct such creatures so yeah, go nuts. Also, your animal companion should obviously be doing a lot. On level 4, you'll have Animal's X buffs which last 10 min/level; 40 mins can easily cover two encounters. And yeah, you could just ask the party to man up with Entangle.

Note that if you leave as many enemies on the edge of Entangle as possible, they're fair game for melee types (or, with Enlarge Person or reach weapons, from further away). And everyone (and by that, I mean everyone) should have ranged weapons anyways. That's really more of a matter of discussing with the party about possible tactics and strategies out of game. Tell them what kinds of spells you have and what kinds of things they require from your allies and remind them of what kind of an asset the spells can be. Though do remember that if enemies aren't tough, you don't really need to do anything. By the sound of it, you've been having easy encounters all game so you're really fine without castings of the more powerful spells.


Also, buffs are the easiest to use so that's something to consider. I'm fairly sure none of them would complain about +2 to hit and +3 damage, or 2 points of Natural Armor or some such. Buffing your animal companion isn't out of the question either; Magic Fang is alright, for example. And Soften Earth and Stone, Summon Swarm and e.g. Warp Wood definitely have their uses. And you could just pick simple Produce Flame or Flame Blade if you want something more interesting than simple attacks.

But yeah, to use your best spells efficiently, you need to make your party aware of what you have access to and cooperate with them. Properly used, low level spells just destroy encounters, especially since most low CR creatures have horrible saves.

Susano-wo
2010-10-26, 07:29 PM
Warkitty: with PF, you are alway relevant,even if not uber every round/encounter. Unfortunately, they didn't give druid any damaging 0th lvls, but minor buffing and debuffing might not be that powerful, but does affect things. Aside from that, there is always engaging in Melee or ranged (yeah, slings, etc aren't overwhelming, but if you are fighting 1st lvl monsters, shouldn't be too hard to take one down, even with sub par damage, and 8-9 HP means you can probably take a hit at least)

And once you get 3rd, you have at least 5 spells aside from your orisons, so that's 5 out of the 6 encounters where you can cast a 1st lvl spell. And if the GM will let you, you can take your 1st reserve feat at that level as well.

with Clerics, its just a matter of the same options, plus choosing 1 domain with an attack power, that should be useable something like 6 or seven times a day (with wizards, just add damaging cantrips to that equation).

And did I read that right? 27 wisdom? holy crap! That means like 3 1sts a day, 4 lext lvl. SO fully half of your encounters can have a 1st level spell cast. :smallamused:

subject42
2010-10-26, 07:48 PM
OH. MY. GOD.

This man is a genius.

Thank you.

If I'm reading the skill description right on the pfsrd, there's no longer an action to control an animal in combat, either.

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 08:44 PM
To be fair my situation was fine once I got to second level spell slots. It's mostly making it through those first few levels that's really really annoying.

Arbane
2010-10-26, 08:47 PM
OH. MY. GOD.

This man is a genius.

And "WeaselBomb" would be a really good name for a rock band. :smallbiggrin:

WarKitty
2010-10-26, 09:07 PM
That's pretty deliberate. Casters are supposed to suck at low levels and bloom in levels to come.
Casters have enough BS they can do, last thing they need is a power boost to effectively eliminate your only weakness.

Edit: If you really need something to do, pick up a sling and sling away.

I'm guessing we have rather different philosophies of gaming. As far as I'm concerned, games should be balanced at each level. If it's unbalanced one way on low levels and unbalanced the other way on high levels, well that just means it's got two problems instead of one. Sticking low-level casters with problems won't do anything to fix high levels and will just annoy people who like to play lower level.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-26, 09:12 PM
To be fair my situation was fine once I got to second level spell slots. It's mostly making it through those first few levels that's really really annoying.

Pretty much. I mean, as a crossbow user, you're no slouch as far as contribution goes, but I want to play magic user, not sniper.

It's worse for sorcs. Level 3 sucks quite badly.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-26, 09:14 PM
Depending on the power level of the game, Aboleth Mucus (20 gp, Savage Species), Dust Eggshell Grenades (10 gp, Oriental Adventures), or Sleep-Smoke (25 gp, City of Splendors: Waterdeep) can be nasty on enemies.

Eldariel
2010-10-26, 09:18 PM
To be fair my situation was fine once I got to second level spell slots. It's mostly making it through those first few levels that's really really annoying.

Well yeah, Entangle is the big one. Its power is really the big thing the casting gives a Druid at that point. Just warn your people beforehand; people shouldn't have magic weapons before level 2 anyways and free hits are free hits even if you have to use somewhat inferior weapons. And enemies can, again, be left on the edge of the spell.

In our very first 3.5 campaign, we were up against maybe 15 Goblins (over 10 anyways; it's been a long time and I don't remember) and 2 Ogres in our first encounter. I was sure we were ****ed but others considered them free XP. We had one character above 1st level (a 5th level Ranger) with us helping us along and he cast Entangle. A single entangle reduced that group to handful of Goblins we could pick off, and then picking off the Entangled ones. It was mostly potshooting and we never ended up in melee with any of them (of course, we did take the chance to use the distance to our advantage maintaining it as much as possible). Now, notice that the spell would've actually been more efficient if the Ranger were a Druid instead (due to higher Wisdom). Minute is quite a long time anyways, especially with 4-5 guys raining death with Longbows/Shortbows/Crossbows. Oh, and it's a long range spell to boot. Indeed, I think it's among the most powerful spells at level 1, especially in a party ready to use it (-2 to hit and AC? Yes plz!). It easily beats Grease (1 minute vs. 1 round) and is much, much more wieldy than Sleep (which is full-round medium range) or Color Spray (which is short range). And 1 minute is a long time.


Though yeah, Animal Companion obviously makes Druid's contributions quite sizable. And Handle Animal is as useful as ever, and of course, there are other spells (Faerie Fire, Produce Flame, Obscuring Mist, Shillelagh, Magic Stone) that can be decent, but none are anywhere near as powerful as Entangle. So if I'm given two slots, that's two Entangles. Faerie Fire negates various forms of illusions, and concealment, and Produce Flame produces light and gives you a few ranged touch attacks (though being only one on level one, it's kinda meh). And Magic Stone and Shillelagh can be great combat buffs for a Druid with decent physicals.

0th level spells aren't that useless on the level either tho; Guidance is pretty handy, Resistance isn't entirely terrible and Create Water is at least loads of fun. And of course, no life without Detect Magic. Allows you to detect and eventually pinpoint invisible people, for one.

gbprime
2010-10-26, 09:44 PM
It's worse for sorcs. Level 3 sucks quite badly.

There are two reasons why retraining rules rock. This is one of them. Take feats so you survive and prosper at low levels, then retrain them in time for your intended Prestige Class.

(The second reason is so that you don't end up passing on cool things that happen in the game because you didn't plan them out 10 levels ago in your feat progression path.)