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incandescent
2010-10-26, 08:39 PM
-will the players of Ana, Adam, Koumori, Nate, and Link please refrain from reading this thread-

First off, hello forum! I've been a long time lurker here and just recently decided to start posting because I can no longer check encounters with my normal partner in crime because (he's playing in my game) and I'd like some sort of input on the following encounter. I'm very bad about either making pushover encounters or overly deadly encounters. :smalltongue:

The group: all level 1
A Monk with sneak attack (highly mobile sneak attacker)
A Bard with Shadow walk (melee and ranged generalist)
A Ranger with Fighter Weapon Talent (deadly twin striker)
An unmodified Fighter
A Wizard with a modified warlock's curse (it slows on high numbers but does no damage)
[We're using homebrewed hybrid and race generation rules]

The Encounter:

4x 'Guardian Emanations' (lv 2 soldiers, refluffed MM1 kobolds with a rechargeable ability to teleport through this gooey resin on the walls while adjacent as a move action)

1x 'Packlord Emanation' (lv 4 lurker, refluffed MM1 kobold with the aforementioned teleportation ability and a leader ability to recharge the 'resin transfer' power on all allies 1/encounter)

1x Pulsating core (lv 1 large trap with 15 HP and DR 5 per square located in the center of the room, it's anchored to the ceiling and floor and produces the resin covering the ceiling and parts of the walls. On it's initiative it telekinetically moves an object 3 squares and causes a saving throw if it hits a character with a failure knocking them prone. The resin draped down parts of the walls attacks as a immediate reaction if the players move adjacent with a save ends immobilize effect.)

The reason I ask:
Is this encounter too powerful? too weak? Is there anything I can do to make it more interesting? I always hate it when a melee predominant party stands in the same 15 by 15 foot space on one of my elaborate maps, so I made this to get them moving around the room. I'm slightly worried about the Guardians having a mark, the shifty ability, AND the teleportation ability.

Thanks for taking the time, Inca.

Sipex
2010-10-27, 08:12 AM
You'll be fine. Players are stronger than you think.

dsmiles
2010-10-27, 08:50 AM
Before I saw the encounter, I just wanted to run in here and shout, "MOAR MINIONS!"

After seeing the encounter, I think you've got it right on the money. Wizards are more badass than they let on. (I think it's a conspiracy.)

incandescent
2010-10-27, 09:04 AM
I hope you're both right. :smalltongue:

I beat them up decently with an encounter i threw together to introduce two of the five players (they're cameo-ing because the other DM is gone for two weeks), and they have to get through one more before they get to this one. I'm trying to challenge their resource management skills because we've run fairly lenient campaigns up until this point.

EDIT: On further reflection, the encounter isn't nearly as hard as i thought (it was orinally supposed to be an encounter for three people, with one less guardian emanation.)

I've beefed it up by making the Guardians Elites with a charge attack that lets them strike twice. The Packlord is essentially the same. With the trap at roughly 100 XP, is this level 4 encounter too difficult?

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-10-27, 06:33 PM
Shouldn't be. Level+3 is on the low end of difficult. Do you have the DMG? The tables in the "Building Encounters" section are mostly right on the money, in regards to total XP price. Minions and Solos are weaker than they are supposed to be, but Standard and Elite monsters are mostly well priced.

EDIT: Whoops, I missed the part about Elite-ifying the Guardians. If you have the same number, the encounter will be too hard for an average party at level 1. Like, TPK hard. That's actually a level 6 encounter, with 255 XP per character if you include the trap. Level 5 is the highest you should go for a level 1 party, and even that starts to stray into TPK territory. It was good, if slightly easy before. Add in another Packlord, and leave the Guardians as Standard monsters maybe?

kyoryu
2010-10-27, 06:43 PM
Will most likely be fine. The first few 4e encounters I ran, I was sure the party was going to get wiped eight ways to Sunday.

Despite their complete inexperience they mowed the encounter down like it was nothing. 4e characters are tougher than you think especially when you're talking 1st level characters. They are far, far tougher than 1st level characters in previous editions.

Also, keep in mind that 4e is intended to wear down resources over a series of fights, not wipe the characters in a single fight. So if you're following generic encounter guidelines, even if you slightly mis-balance the encounter, the likely result is that they'll use more of their resource (dailies, etc.) than you'd normally anticipate.

(edit: this was made in reference to the original encounter)

incandescent
2010-10-27, 06:50 PM
Shouldn't be. Level+3 is on the low end of difficult. Do you have the DMG? The tables in the "Building Encounters" section are mostly right on the money, in regards to total XP price. Minions and Solos are weaker than they are supposed to be, but Standard and Elite monsters are mostly well priced.

EDIT: Whoops, I missed the part about Elite-ifying the Guardians. If you have the same number, the encounter will be too hard for an average party at level 1. Like, TPK hard. That's actually a level 6 encounter, with 255 XP per character if you include the trap. Level 5 is the highest you should go for a level 1 party, and even that starts to stray into TPK territory. It was good, if slightly easy before. Add in another Packlord, and leave the Guardians as Standard monsters maybe?

sorry, forgot to add that i took one of the guardians out for a total of three guardians and the packlord.


Will most likely be fine. The first few 4e encounters I ran, I was sure the party was going to get wiped eight ways to Sunday.

Despite their complete inexperience they mowed the encounter down like it was nothing. 4e characters are tougher than you think especially when you're talking 1st level characters. They are far, far tougher than 1st level characters in previous editions.

Also, keep in mind that 4e is intended to wear down resources over a series of fights, not wipe the characters in a single fight. So if you're following generic encounter guidelines, even if you slightly mis-balance the encounter, the likely result is that they'll use more of their resource (dailies, etc.) than you'd normally anticipate.

(edit: this was made in reference to the original encounter)

That's why I came here, I'm notorious for making fights at either end of the spectrum (either too easy or too hard) and always like to check my data. The reason I want this series of fights to be difficult is because I want them to level in time for the story arc to end. Once they complete this fight I'm going to allow them some respite (regain HP as if you spent 2 healing surges) so they can investigate the area further.

The first encounter they faced was about on par with them, though they had to cover a distance to get to the other party members and I played kind of brutal with the group of skirmishers. The second fight is where they'll get their milestone and rescue some more NPC's and is going to be a level 3 encounter and this capstone fight is supposed to be difficult (but not totally overwhelming) to let them really feel like they earned their health back.

I may post the other encounters I have planned to see if they're out of whack as well :smalltongue:

RebelRogue
2010-10-27, 06:52 PM
Also, this party is deadlier than a standard party, because of the gestalt-ish house rule that seems to be going on (did you just let them pick an extra Class Feature from another class?)

incandescent
2010-10-27, 07:01 PM
Also, this party is deadlier than a standard party, because of the gestalt-ish house rule that seems to be going on (did you just let them pick an extra Class Feature from another class?)

I let them trade out. The ranger traded out two blade style for Fighter weapon talent (i still let him twin strike with a greatsword simply because of his flavor but am watching carefully) and he traded away something else for the avenger's armor of faith (I brred him from taking unarmored agility tho).

The bard traded ritual casting for shadow walk and I honestly can't say what the monk has traded but we spent weeks of prep time on this campaign and I trust them not to try and break it (though I still keep an eye out).

and the wizard discussed his curse idea with me and I let him have it more or less unmodified since he's only showing for the next session.

kyoryu
2010-10-27, 07:09 PM
I let them trade out. The ranger traded out two blade style for Fighter weapon talent (i still let him twin strike with a greatsword simply because of his flavor but am watching carefully)

*boggle*

Twin Strike? With a GREATSWORD? How is he managing to hold two greatswords? Or is he somehow getting Twin Strike with a single weapon???

Really, given the existing power of Rangers and Twin Strike, that's just over the top.

OrionFaarlane
2010-10-27, 07:12 PM
Your PCs are modified a bit, so it's okay to modify your monsters similarly, which it sounds like you have done.

As for encounters, this sounds like a well thought out one. The only thing I would ask, is there a plan to further challenge the party if they trounce through your guys on round 1? (I call it my Ace in the Hole.) On the flip side, if they start eating through all of the resources, what treasure have you included in the encounter? Can they find the treasure or something in the room to make it easier?

Just a couple of thoughts.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-27, 07:13 PM
Yeah, how does that work?

Your XP Budget is a good guide, as is the defences of your enemies compared to the average attack rolls of your players. It also depend if you want to make it too hard or too easy.

One rule of thumb is to run it, and if it's too hard do a quick fix mid-encounter (just don't tell the players!).

incandescent
2010-10-27, 07:13 PM
*boggle*

Twin Strike? With a GREATSWORD? How is he managing to hold two greatswords? Or is he somehow getting Twin Strike with a single weapon???

Really, given the existing power of Rangers and Twin Strike, that's just over the top.

They don't heavily optimize and over two years of playing we've barely gotten all the way though heroic tier, lol. Any one that has a problem with it will bring it to me and if I see it ruining the campaign I'll end it myself. But for now it's working okay.


Your PCs are modified a bit, so it's okay to modify your monsters similarly, which it sounds like you have done.

As for encounters, this sounds like a well thought out one. The only thing I would ask, is there a plan to further challenge the party if they trounce through your guys on round 1? (I call it my Ace in the Hole.) On the flip side, if they start eating through all of the resources, what treasure have you included in the encounter? Can they find the treasure or something in the room to make it easier?

Just a couple of thoughts.

Resources consist of HP, powers, and Healing Surges at the moment. We decided as a group to play with the inherent bonuses system and magic items have not yet been introduced (aside from alchemical items reflavored as grenades and such). most of their rewards will be RP boons (the ranger keeps flavoring his attacks as part of a semi wolf like transformation, so he's getting boons along the lines of a scent ability or a pack attack thing when the time comes). For him in particular, if the fight goes south I'm willing to give him a temporary "wolf rage mode", or make the bard's photogenic reflexes be able to tie one down or something. If things get really bad, they can always retreat, but i don't want it to come to that.

kyoryu
2010-10-27, 07:15 PM
They don't heavily optimize and over two years of playing we've barely gotten all the way though heroic tier, lol. Any one that has a problem with it will bring it to me and if I see it ruining the campaign I'll end it myself. But for now it's working okay.

How is the Ranger even getting any abilities, since most of them require either a bow or to be wielding two weapons?

If you're tweaking the rules that much, balancing is going to be hard since you've really blown a lot of the balance points out of the water.

edit: BTW, I'm not saying what you've done is "wrong" in any way - just that by the changes you've made, it is going to make balancing a lot more difficult as the usual assumptions about power and effectiveness probably aren't true.

To balance encounters, I'd recommend just playing through them yourself if you can, and seeing how they go.

incandescent
2010-10-27, 07:32 PM
How is the Ranger even getting any abilities, since most of them require either a bow or to be wielding two weapons?

If you're tweaking the rules that much, balancing is going to be hard since you've really blown a lot of the balance points out of the water.

edit: BTW, I'm not saying what you've done is "wrong" in any way - just that by the changes you've made, it is going to make balancing a lot more difficult as the usual assumptions about power and effectiveness probably aren't true.

To balance encounters, I'd recommend just playing through them yourself if you can, and seeing how they go.

I suppose you're right, but at least everyone is a bit above the power curve.

This discussion has enlightened me that my players will able to handle pretty tough fights as long as I'm willing to suss out the balance between their power and my monsters' power.

Do you think, with the modifications to the players given, that consistently facing fights 2-3 levels above theirs would count as a baseline?

Edit: forgot to answer your question about the ranger. Pretty much any power that requires two blades he can use with a great sword.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-27, 07:34 PM
Maybe, but you need to ask yourself what would they be rolling on average and whether they'd be able to take the damage from these sorts of encounters.

RebelRogue
2010-10-27, 07:36 PM
I don't think I would ever go as far as you do in tweaking the basics of the game, but if you feel you've got it under control and everbody's having fun, it can't be bad. It does make it kind of hard for us to judge the difficulty of an encounter, but since you're sort of doing a freeformish thing anyway (letting Pcs do some flavory stuff to save their butts) you shouldn't be in too much trouble, at least this time. But I'd advice you to be careful it doesn't turn into a get-out-of-jail-for-free thing.

incandescent
2010-10-27, 07:38 PM
Maybe, but you need to ask yourself what would they be rolling on average and whether they'd be able to take the damage from these sorts of encounters.

damage in this particular encounter consists mostly of D6's. with the lurker, a particularly unlucky character could recieve 3d6 damage plus ongoing 5 damage (they have to be granting combat advantage and the lurker has to hit with two attacks) which is probably a little deadly for a level 1 party ._.

I can always have him sneak around in the back instead of busting out his doom attack all the time and see whether the players are handling the guardians well enough.


I don't think I would ever go as far as you do in tweaking the basics of the game, but if you feel you've got it under control and everbody's having fun, it can't be bad. It does make it kind of hard for us to judge the difficulty of an encounter, but since you're sort of doing a freeformish thing anyway (letting Pcs do some flavory stuff to save their butts) you shouldn't be in too much trouble, at least this time. But I'd advice you to be careful it doesn't turn into a get-out-of-jail-for-free thing.

I only plan on letting them do player-ex-machina type stuff when i realize that I've made a grievous overestimation of their power or underestimation of a creature's power. Or at special times when the fight is already decided and adding some oomph wouldn't hurt (like towards the end of a session with a boss fight where it;s clear the players are winning, as an example).

Edit: as far as control of the game goes, I only have two of the players for this next session and things will settle back down to a more manageable state when I'm back down to the original three.

kyoryu
2010-10-27, 07:44 PM
damage in this particular encounter consists mostly of D6's. with the lurker, a particularly unlucky character could recieve 3d6 damage plus ongoing 5 damage (they have to be granting combat advantage and the lurker has to hit with two attacks) which is probably a little deadly for a level 1 party ._.


Not really. As you said, it's a relatively rare scenario, and it averages to 10 damage, with 5 ongoing. A bit ouchy, sure, but pretty reasonably within healing ability. I assume it's 5 ongoing, save ends?

Even at max damage (18), it shouldn't be enough to one-shot anybody, even at 1st level. It'd certainly be worrying, though.

incandescent
2010-10-27, 07:53 PM
Not really. As you said, it's a relatively rare scenario, and it averages to 10 damage, with 5 ongoing. A bit ouchy, sure, but pretty reasonably within healing ability. I assume it's 5 ongoing, save ends?

Even at max damage (18), it shouldn't be enough to one-shot anybody, even at 1st level. It'd certainly be worrying, though.

all right. I think as a precaution, i might leave them some alchemical items or potions in the encounter before this one just so they don't run into it at half health and get splattered by the packlord's multiattack.